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Bottleneck Help!

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January 22, 2012 5:37:37 AM

Motherboard: GA-MA770T-UD3
CPU: AMD Athlon II X4 635 Processor OC'd to 3.0Ghz (from 2.9GHz)
GPU: Radeon HD 6950 2GB
RAM: 4GB G.Skill Ripjaws Series

Processor AMD Athlon(tm) II X4 635 Processor 7.3
Memory (RAM) 4.00 GB 7.3
Graphics AMD Radeon HD 6900 Series 7.9
Gaming graphics 3838 MB Total available graphics memory 7.9
Primary hard disk 323GB Free (932GB Total) 5.9

Now I get about 50fps in a Heroic in World of Warcraft, and I get 60fps on Ultra in BF3. I know WoW is CPU intensive, so I'm just wondering if my 635 Quad core is really that bad? Can I get more fps if I upgrade?

More about : bottleneck

a c 78 B Homebuilt system
January 22, 2012 1:00:21 PM

OC the 635 higher than it is now and see if you get more FPS out of it.

That should help determine if the CPU is holding you back.
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January 22, 2012 1:46:31 PM

Raiddinn said:
OC the 635 higher than it is now and see if you get more FPS out of it.

That should help determine if the CPU is holding you back.


I can't OC much without it crashing. Even if I OC to like 3.2 I will get a crash. It sucks because I can run LinX for an hour, which is supposed to be able to tell if your CPU is successfully OC'd and is stable, and while 3.2 was stable, it crashed during BF3.
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a b B Homebuilt system
January 22, 2012 3:22:44 PM

Does LinX test memory too?
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January 22, 2012 3:26:25 PM

FinneousPJ said:
Does LinX test memory too?




I'm not too smart when it comes to all this stuff, but I'm assuming the memory option is for testing how many GB you want to test.

I've been running at 3.1GHz for about 2 hours now, only playing WoW though.
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a c 78 B Homebuilt system
January 22, 2012 4:47:58 PM

What are the FPS figures between 3.1 ghz and 2.9 ghz for FPS in WOW?
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January 22, 2012 4:57:42 PM

Raiddinn said:
What are the FPS figures between 3.1 ghz and 2.9 ghz for FPS in WOW?


25fps in Orgrimmar at 3.1GHz

23-24fps in Orgrimmar at 2.9GHz
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a c 78 B Homebuilt system
January 22, 2012 5:28:40 PM

It is quite a wide range, but if you moved to a 2500k, the current gold standard, you would be looking at a gaming improvement from the processor's perspective of 5 - 90% approx with potential for OCing beyond that range.

Moving to the 2500k would run you about 220 for the processor, 125 for the board, and another 40 for the ram, give or take.

Is it worth $400ish for you to approx double your FPS in WOW?

You could get a better Phenom 2 for maybe $120 - $150 but the possible improvement with these processors is much less than with the 2500k.

What sort of budget do you have dedicated to getting the higher FPS?

- Edit - If you were to get a Phenom 2 955 for ~125, you could expect no more than +50% FPS.
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January 22, 2012 5:32:07 PM

Raiddinn said:
It is quite a wide range, but if you moved to a 2500k, the current gold standard, you would be looking at a gaming improvement from the processor's perspective of 5 - 90% approx with potential for OCing beyond that range.

Moving to the 2500k would run you about 220 for the processor, 125 for the board, and another 40 for the ram, give or take.

Is it worth $400ish for you to approx double your FPS in WOW?

You could get a better Phenom 2 for maybe $120 - $150 but the possible improvement with these processors is much less than with the 2500k.

What sort of budget do you have dedicated to getting the higher FPS?


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Those are something I would upgrade too. Even 150$ is pushing my budget. I don't like upgrading so often and I just spent 100$ on my NZXT Phantom 410 case.
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a c 78 B Homebuilt system
January 22, 2012 5:35:56 PM

It would be nice if you could potentially unlock the Zosma, but I don't think your board has UCC.

The +50% approx maximum increase that I edited in above would likely hold for the processors you chose.

- Edit - clarity
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January 22, 2012 5:39:21 PM

Raiddinn said:
It would be nice if you could potentially unlock the Zosma, but I don't think your board has UCC.

The +50% approx maximum increase that I edited in above would likely hold for the processors you chose.

- Edit - clarity


I just want a decent CPU and PC that will keep me going for a while.

I think my GPU will last, but as for my other parts, they are a year old and I already want more. I really don't want to upgrade so much to the point where I spend more than a Mac.
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a b B Homebuilt system
a b À AMD
January 22, 2012 5:49:59 PM

does what you're doing spit and sputter ? or did you put that new graphics card on expecting more FPS ? The only real upgrade would be the one suggested above. 2500k/board/memory. Anything else would be a total waste of money at this point and time. that's where the only "real" increase in performance will come from. Save your pennies. You'll be glad you did after you make that significant upgrade. After that you can move to 64bit windows7.
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January 22, 2012 6:01:18 PM

swifty_morgan said:
does what you're doing spit and sputter ? or did you put that new graphics card on expecting more FPS ? The only real upgrade would be the one suggested above. 2500k/board/memory. Anything else would be a total waste of money at this point and time. that's where the only "real" increase in performance will come from. Save your pennies. You'll be glad you did after you make that significant upgrade. After that you can move to 64bit windows7.


Well that's asking me to buy most of a computer again. This is really unfortunate. I don't know if I can afford Intel parts. I already run 64bit Windows 7 Ultimate as well.
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January 22, 2012 6:03:43 PM

xxbobbyfinxx said:
I just want a decent CPU and PC that will keep me going for a while.

I think my GPU will last, but as for my other parts, they are a year old and I already want more. I really don't want to upgrade so much to the point where I spend more than a Mac.


you want a decent cpu but arent willing to pay for it. thats a problem. to get what you want you really need to upgrade to a sandy bridge to get the max out of that 6950.

swifty_morgan said:
does what you're doing spit and sputter ? or did you put that new graphics card on expecting more FPS ? The only real upgrade would be the one suggested above. 2500k/board/memory. Anything else would be a total waste of money at this point and time. that's where the only "real" increase in performance will come from. Save your pennies. You'll be glad you did after you make that significant upgrade. After that you can move to 64bit windows7.


agreed
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January 22, 2012 6:58:29 PM

cbrunnem said:
you want a decent cpu but arent willing to pay for it. thats a problem. to get what you want you really need to upgrade to a sandy bridge to get the max out of that 6950.



agreed



Well I guess that's it then. Telling me to buy an Intel though....I would have to drop quite a lot on that. I just figured that a 2.9 quad core was a good CPU, but if I have to buy an i5 to play games better, maybe I have to.

Currently have my old 5770 on eBay to try and raise the money to pay for these parts.
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January 22, 2012 7:13:49 PM

xxbobbyfinxx said:
Well I guess that's it then. Telling me to buy an Intel though....I would have to drop quite a lot on that. I just figured that a 2.9 quad core was a good CPU, but if I have to buy an i5 to play games better, maybe I have to.

Currently have my old 5770 on eBay to try and raise the money to pay for these parts.



dont get use wrong a phenom x4 will play most games well but its not going to get the max amount of fps the gpu could get.

if you were to buy an amd upgrade you would be in the same situation a year from now that you are now. the intel system would last 3 years
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January 22, 2012 7:19:44 PM

cbrunnem said:
dont get use wrong a phenom x4 will play most games well but its not going to get the max amount of fps the gpu could get.

if you were to buy an amd upgrade you would be in the same situation a year from now that you are now. the intel system would last 3 years


Anyone want to whip my up a CPU/Mobo combo that could possibly use the RAM I already have?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
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a b B Homebuilt system
January 22, 2012 7:35:31 PM

Before you buy anything try stabilizing your overclock that should help... Did you remember to lower your memory speed before overclocking the CPU? Have a look at tutorials online.
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January 22, 2012 7:42:15 PM

FinneousPJ said:
Before you buy anything try stabilizing your overclock that should help... Did you remember to lower your memory speed before overclocking the CPU? Have a look at tutorials online.


I am not good when it comes to reading and applying things of that sort. I didn't even know I would have to lower my memory speeds to OC.
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January 22, 2012 7:51:47 PM

xxbobbyfinxx said:
If that CPU isn't high end, what AMD CPU equivalent could I get to match the performance?


thats the best gaming cpu out there. no amd cpu can match its speed
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January 22, 2012 7:53:53 PM

cbrunnem said:
thats the best gaming cpu out there. no amd cpu can match its speed


I see. Well, I better start saving. No way do I have that kind of money. :/ 
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January 22, 2012 8:07:40 PM

xxbobbyfinxx said:
I see. Well, I better start saving. No way do I have that kind of money. :/ 



good decision and maybe buy the time you have the money you could get an ivy bridge cpu. they will be about the same price but about 10 percent faster in some apps and a z68 mobo will support them.
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January 22, 2012 8:09:13 PM

cbrunnem said:
good decision and maybe buy the time you have the money you could get an ivy bridge cpu. they will be about the same price but about 10 percent faster in some apps and a z68 mobo will support them.


Could you send me a combo or some decent parts that I could add to my wishlist to start saving for?
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January 22, 2012 8:15:58 PM

there are no combos for the 2500k on newegg but you might find this website helpful.
pcpartpicker.com
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a c 78 B Homebuilt system
January 23, 2012 1:11:08 AM

i5-2500k

GIGABYTE GA-Z68A-D3H-B3 LGA 1155 Intel Z68 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard

I don't know much about your current RAM, but it has a decent chance of plugging right in. I see a lot of people using G.Skill Ripjaws models with this combo. It makes me cringe, but it will probably work.

That is about $350 or $400 if you have to get new RAM too.


That would probably be a 33 - 100% improvement in FPS in most processor heavy games.


That or you can take one of the budget AMD processors that works with the board you already have for $125 for maybe 25 - 50% increase in FPS for most processor heavy games.
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January 23, 2012 1:28:57 AM

Raiddinn said:
i5-2500k

GIGABYTE GA-Z68A-D3H-B3 LGA 1155 Intel Z68 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard

I don't know much about your current RAM, but it has a decent chance of plugging right in. I see a lot of people using G.Skill Ripjaws models with this combo. It makes me cringe, but it will probably work.

That is about $350 or $400 if you have to get new RAM too.


That would probably be a 33 - 100% improvement in FPS in most processor heavy games.


That or you can take one of the budget AMD processors that works with the board you already have for $125 for maybe 25 - 50% increase in FPS for most processor heavy games.


this board has more features(pcie 3) and is cheaper
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

there is nothing wrong with gskill ripjaws
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a c 78 B Homebuilt system
January 23, 2012 1:34:18 AM

I agree with those two points, but the drawback is that it is a Tier 2 manufacturer instead of a Tier 1 manufacturer.

Better to plan on getting the best brand name if possible. Other Gigabyte boards exist with the same sort of features and can be had in a decent deal whenever the OP manages to save up $400.
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January 23, 2012 1:37:03 AM

Raiddinn said:
I agree with those two points, but the drawback is that it is a Tier 2 manufacturer instead of a Tier 1 manufacturer.

Better to plan on getting the best brand name if possible. Other Gigabyte boards exist with the same sort of features and can be had in a decent deal whenever the OP manages to save up $400.


that statement has no merit at all. asrock has proven to be a top motherboard manufacturer.
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a c 78 B Homebuilt system
January 23, 2012 1:44:42 AM

First person I have ever heard try to argue that Asrock is just as good as Gigabyte if that is what you are implying.

If you are implying that "average" is fine and the OP doesn't have the extra resources necessary to go with "good" then that is a reasonable argument to make too.

As a kinda sorta listing I think most people would agree on, I would say the motherboard makers are kind ranked about like this

Tier 1 - Gigabyte and Asus
Tier 2 - Asrock, MSI, and Biostar
Tier 3 - Zotac, Foxconn, other generic stuff
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January 23, 2012 1:52:27 AM

Raiddinn said:
First person I have ever heard try to argue that Asrock is just as good as Gigabyte if that is what you are implying.

If you are implying that "average" is fine and the OP doesn't have the extra resources necessary to go with "good" then that is a reasonable argument to make too.

As a kinda sorta listing I think most people would agree on, I would say the motherboard makers are kind ranked about like this

Tier 1 - Gigabyte and Asus
Tier 2 - Asrock, MSI, and Biostar
Tier 3 - Zotac, Foxconn, other generic stuff


And I thought MSI was good. Ha, my friend has an ASRock because of the awesome ratings and I liked it. What are your "tier" make ups for GPUs, because I would like to read that as well.
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a c 78 B Homebuilt system
January 23, 2012 2:04:10 AM

I find there is a lot less consensus on video cards than on motherboards, but if you had a gun to my head I would probably say something like this

EVGA, MSI, Powercolor, and Sapphire
Asus, PNY, Gigabyte, HIS, XFX
Zotac, Galaxy, Sparkle

BTW, when I was trying to make sure I had all the major names, I came across this on Newegg

Solid 14k White Gold 3 Three Stone Round Cut Big Large Diamond Engagement Wedding Ring Band with Baguette and Round Side stone Diamonds (2.0 cttw, G - H Color, SI2 Clarity)

For $3564

Why would this item be sold on Newegg? I don't get it.
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January 23, 2012 2:06:04 AM

Raiddinn said:
I find there is a lot less consensus on video cards than on motherboards, but if you had a gun to my head I would probably say something like this

EVGA, MSI, Powercolor, and Sapphire
Asus, PNY, Gigabyte, HIS, XFX
Zotac, Galaxy, Sparkle

BTW, when I was trying to make sure I had all the major names, I came across this on Newegg

Solid 14k White Gold 3 Three Stone Round Cut Big Large Diamond Engagement Wedding Ring Band with Baguette and Round Side stone Diamonds (2.0 cttw, G - H Color, SI2 Clarity)

For $3564

Why would this item be sold on Newegg? I don't get it.


I've never even heard of Powercooler making GPU's. I also thought HIS would be a top tier since it has the quietest cards.
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a c 78 B Homebuilt system
January 23, 2012 2:19:42 AM

PowerColor and Sapphire don't make a lot of Nvidia cards. If that is the kind you usually use then it would be normal for you not to have heard of them. They usually stick with ATI video cards.

PowerColor has quite a lot of niche cards for specific applications.

I actually have a PowerColor video card, as you can see from my signature. It is the most powerful passively cooled video card currently on the market (HD 6850 SCS3).

They also make the PowerColor 6870x2 which is one of the most powerful video cards with 2 processors on the same video card. These cards allow you to get 4 way Crossfire performance out of 2 video card slots and they allow 3 and 4 way crossfire with only one bridge which is important since you have to get the highest of the high end video cards to have more than 1 bridge.

It also allows 2 way crossfire with just 1 video card slot. It is too expensive for that sort of thing though, better to just buy 1 bigger card if you aren't looking for 3 way crossfire performance.

They also have some of the quietest ATI card models too.

They aren't really mainstream like EVGA, MSI, and Sapphire are, but their cards are very high quality like those 3 are.

I can't remember the last time someone came in here saying they had trouble with a Powercolor video card.
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January 23, 2012 2:45:57 AM

Raiddinn said:
First person I have ever heard try to argue that Asrock is just as good as Gigabyte if that is what you are implying.

If you are implying that "average" is fine and the OP doesn't have the extra resources necessary to go with "good" then that is a reasonable argument to make too.

As a kinda sorta listing I think most people would agree on, I would say the motherboard makers are kind ranked about like this

Tier 1 - Gigabyte and Asus
Tier 2 - Asrock, MSI, and Biostar
Tier 3 - Zotac, Foxconn, other generic stuff


wasnt the one toms recommended but a bad board being able to produce the best overclock? that doesnt make sense or maybe asrock isnt bad.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/x79-ud3-p9x79-pro-d...

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a c 78 B Homebuilt system
January 23, 2012 3:12:19 AM

Being able to produce the best OC isn't generally the #1 priority in terms of user experience.

Especially when the difference is less than 1% from the OCs that the higher tier brands achieve.

It is an average maker and is forced to try to undercut the higher tier brands on price because it doesn't have a brand name and track record even with Gigabyte and Asus, that is about all there is to it.

They do go the extra mile trying to throw in everything including the kitchen sink to make up for their tier 2 status which I do commend them for, but I wouldn't get one myself nor would I suggest it to others unless they need to shave money from a build and they were willing to potentially sacrifice some quality as well.
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January 23, 2012 6:59:33 PM

Raiddinn said:
Being able to produce the best OC isn't generally the #1 priority in terms of user experience.

Especially when the difference is less than 1% from the OCs that the higher tier brands achieve.

It is an average maker and is forced to try to undercut the higher tier brands on price because it doesn't have a brand name and track record even with Gigabyte and Asus, that is about all there is to it.

They do go the extra mile trying to throw in everything including the kitchen sink to make up for their tier 2 status which I do commend them for, but I wouldn't get one myself nor would I suggest it to others unless they need to shave money from a build and they were willing to potentially sacrifice some quality as well.


fan boy is what im reading. you have no proof other then an opinion.

oh and i forgot asrock is owned by asus fyi.
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a c 78 B Homebuilt system
January 23, 2012 7:47:53 PM

No it isn't owned by Asus. It originally was, but it severed ties with Asus when it was spun off as its own company.

I could call you a "fan boy" from the other side. You clearly favor Asrock even though it is less than 1% ahead of Asus in some test even though it comes up well short of the Asus and Gigabyte in other tests.

You can point to irrelevant statistics all you want, but Asus, ECS, MSI, and Gigabyte wouldn't together account for like 80% of all motherboards in use today if Asrock was clearly better than them.

If the Asrock was clearly better, people would buy it, if other companies are clearly better, people would buy those instead (which they do).

The fact of the matter is that Asrock and a dozen other brands are fighting over the scraps of what is left after the brands with proven track records take their share.

Asrock has 190 employees while Asus has 113,300ish.

That is a pretty good proof of how competitive Asrock is with top tier manufacturers.

- Edit - Clarity
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January 23, 2012 8:15:36 PM

cbrunnem said:
fan boy is what im reading. you have no proof other then an opinion.

oh and i forgot asrock is owned by asus fyi.


So just looking around, I saw a link to this CPU.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

From what I'm reading, people are saying it's a lot better than i7. If that's the case, would this be better to get?
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a c 78 B Homebuilt system
January 23, 2012 8:38:22 PM

The 975 would be slightly better than the 960t, but not by much.

It really depends on what budget you want to devote to this.

For $50 over the 960t it might be worth it if you really want to squeeze go a bit higher without buying a whole new intel core that will cost 2-3x as much.
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January 24, 2012 3:47:07 AM

Raiddinn said:
No it isn't owned by Asus. It originally was, but it severed ties with Asus when it was spun off as its own company.

I could call you a "fan boy" from the other side. You clearly favor Asrock even though it is less than 1% ahead of Asus in some test even though it comes up well short of the Asus and Gigabyte in other tests.

You can point to irrelevant statistics all you want, but Asus, ECS, MSI, and Gigabyte wouldn't together account for like 80% of all motherboards in use today if Asrock was clearly better than them.

If the Asrock was clearly better, people would buy it, if other companies are clearly better, people would buy those instead (which they do).

The fact of the matter is that Asrock and a dozen other brands are fighting over the scraps of what is left after the brands with proven track records take their share.

Asrock has 190 employees while Asus has 113,300ish.

That is a pretty good proof of how competitive Asrock is with top tier manufacturers.

- Edit - Clarity


cool you got me on the fact they just got bought out or seperated. there seems to be some confusion on weather they are still owned by asus or not but the facts still remain that your babbling on about something that you have no proof of.

a company that has only 190 employees doesnt gross 300 million. thats just basic crayon math/common sense

xxbobbyfinxx said:
So just looking around, I saw a link to this CPU.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

From what I'm reading, people are saying it's a lot better than i7. If that's the case, would this be better to get?


no cpu is better then the current i7



that would be the best out of the three processors but if you go that route i would recommend the 955be as its the same chip that can overclock very easily into the 975/980be but again an intel i5 would be stronger.

xxbobbyfinxx said:
Here's the best AM3 socket CPU I could find for a reasonable price. It's ranked 38 vs the 2500k's 39, but it would save me having to buy a new motherboard, and if it's as good as the 2500k, this might be worth it.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...


the rankings must be based on price vs performance cause the i5 blows that cpu away in everything except some 3d creation where on average it is still better. gaming wise it will be just as good 75% or the time but those other 25% of the time you could be loosing 10fps.
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a c 78 B Homebuilt system
January 24, 2012 1:03:43 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASRock

Unless you have a better figure for the number of employees than that one. If so, I wouldn't mind seeing it.

I am not about to make a poll on TH asking which boards are more respected and have a longer/better track record between Asus/Gigabyte vs Asrock, but you are welcome to. Feel free to link it to me so I can see how far the numbers slant away from your side.

Anyway, OP - I just wanted to say that nothing AMD has will compute like a 2500k does, BUT in terms of bang for your buck they have processors just as good or better (if you are willing to accept less bang and less bucks).

The Phenom 2 x4s 955+ are usually the ones people recommend as good for the budget conscious people (especially the ones that are already using AMD boards).
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January 24, 2012 5:01:16 PM

Raiddinn said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASRock

Unless you have a better figure for the number of employees than that one. If so, I wouldn't mind seeing it.

I am not about to make a poll on TH asking which boards are more respected and have a longer/better track record between Asus/Gigabyte vs Asrock, but you are welcome to. Feel free to link it to me so I can see how far the numbers slant away from your side.

Anyway, OP - I just wanted to say that nothing AMD has will compute like a 2500k does, BUT in terms of bang for your buck they have processors just as good or better (if you are willing to accept less bang and less bucks).

The Phenom 2 x4s 955+ are usually the ones people recommend as good for the budget conscious people (especially the ones that are already using AMD boards).


cool you cant do math and basic reasoning but thats ok not everyone can. also i never said that asrock had a better/longer track record, the problem was that you dismissed them like no one should get them for reason you have yet to say. you never once said that their performance was bad or had horrible reliability or anything.

OP a 955be would be best and you should overclock it as high as possible(3.8-4). that is if you dont want to go the intel route.
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a c 78 B Homebuilt system
January 24, 2012 6:24:33 PM

Either that or you just have no idea what you are talking about.

Are you seriously trying to say that a company with 190 employees can't produce revenues of 1.5 mil per employee?

If so, you know a whole lot less than you thought.

I will give you the name (and stock symbol) of a company that lists revenues at 75.5 billion with 900 employees. It trades publicly on the NASDAQ. It is all verified by accounting firms according to SEC regulations. They kinda outrank you in knowledge on the subject I think (like me).

For people as awesome as you who don't know what they are talking about as much as you, that is about 84 million per employee (about 56x the per employee revenues) for upwards of 4x as many employees.

Ready to be schooled much?

Before I prove to you how stupid your crayon math rules are, do you by any chance have a business degree?
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January 24, 2012 6:31:35 PM

Raiddinn said:
Either that or you just have no idea what you are talking about.

Are you seriously trying to say that a company with 190 employees can't produce revenues of 1.5 mil per employee?

If so, you know a whole lot less than you thought.

I will give you the name (and stock symbol) of a company that lists revenues at 75.5 billion with 900 employees. It trades publicly on the NASDAQ. It is all verified by accounting firms according to SEC regulations. They kinda outrank you in knowledge on the subject I think (like me).

For people as awesome as you who don't know what they are talking about as much as you, that is about 84 million per employee (about 56x the per employee revenues) for upwards of 4x as many employees.

Ready to be schooled much?

Before I prove to you how stupid your crayon math rules are, do you by any chance have a business degree?


wow your less intelligent then i thought. you realize your comparing apples to pizza right. a tech company like asrock doesnt do the same thing that that company that trades stock.

in case you didnt know a company like asrock needs an engineering team, tech support teams, marketing teams, managers, receptionist and many more critical people. the engineering team a lone will be more then 190. you need EE's, ME's, IE's, CE's, MSE's, and many other types of engineers to produce a board from scratch.

face it dude this is getting now where, asrock has more then 190 employees and they make good boards. if you want to continue on go right ahead and continue a stock trading firm to a business that produces highly complex electrical components.
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a c 78 B Homebuilt system
January 24, 2012 7:14:59 PM

You are a funny guy, changing your story every time you are challenged.

Either they are owned by Asus or they aren't.

Either a company with 190 employees can earn 1.5 mil per employee or they (according to crayon math) can't.
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