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How should my motherboard be?

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February 23, 2012 11:32:47 AM

Hello!
My system is going to be :

Sapphire hd 6950 2 gb GPU
Intel 2500k CPU

KINGSTON 8 GB 1600MHz DDR3 CL9 (2x4GB) HYPERX

POWERSUPPLY XILENCE XP700 700W 135MM FAN PSU GAMING


Im going to play games only. I want the motherboard which will boost my fps and graphics performance. (I can spend up to 190$ for mobo)

I dont know about the features on motherboard. There is a mhz thingie (2000 mhz etc) is it something important for gaming ? Also there is chipset thingie , I think its the most important deal , I'd appreciate if someone can very simply explain what these are , or provide me a link which is an 2012 updated guide to motherboards. I couldnt find any.

These are big moneys we are spending to buy computers. A mistake would hurt a lot >.< So I strongly request you to enlighten me a bit , at least I want to have enough knowledge to be able to decide my own motherboard.

what kind of features should I check on a motherboard when I decide to buy one for massive gaming.





**Note : Some random advices from my friends.

GIGABYTE GA-Z68XP-UD3P LGA 1155 Intel Z68 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

GIGABYTE Z68AP-D3-B3 Intel 1155Pin DDR3 S+V+GL ATX

ASUS P8P67-M PRO B3 4XDDR3-2200M LGA1155

More about : motherboard

a b V Motherboard
February 23, 2012 12:37:26 PM

Any of those motherboards will do fine.

I would not however get that power supply. based on the specs, it is actually closer to 600w and is not 80 Plus Certified. Gaming rigs need a good quality power supply to run properly. An 80 Plus Bronze Certified of at least 550w from trusted makers such as Antec, Seasonic, Corsair, Silverstone, or XFX will work fine. For dual video cards, 750 watt would be better.

Certified power supplies are more expensive, but without one, you are risking all those expensive components you just bought. And no, more wattage does not equal quality.

If those brands I listed are not available, please let me know which ones are and I will attempt to help more.
February 23, 2012 12:41:22 PM

get seasonic, 80plus gold or platinum or corsair 80plus gold psu, so far have been loyal to me and many people
Related resources
February 23, 2012 1:15:54 PM

for some reason the place im gonna be buying the system sux when it comes to power supplies. the only decent one seems to be the one I picked. None of the bands you offered exist here. I HAVE TO stick with this , is it really that bad ? :( 

the one I picked is shown as 80+ certified , might you have checked it wrong ?



please dont blindly suggest motherboards , that doesnt mean anything nor help me. Tell reasons why you suggest them , like " their chipsets are new , they'll offer great performance " , "this mobo's mhz rulez ! " or " this mobo has this reward " and stuff like that so my brain and heart would accept it :p 

thank you very much.
a b V Motherboard
February 23, 2012 1:40:46 PM

masterandapprentice said:
please dont blindly suggest motherboards , that doesnt mean anything nor help me. Tell reasons why you offer them , like " their chipsets are new , they'll offer great performance " , "this mobo's mhz rulez ! " or " this mobo has this reward " and stuff like that so my brain and heart would accept it :p 


All the motherboards recommended in this thread are all Z68 (except for one P67 from your friend) so other than some specific option you can read about in the description, they all offer the same features. The ASROCK Extreme 3 is a budget choice. The ASUS is more high(er) end having PCIe 3.0 support and UEFI BIOS.
February 23, 2012 1:46:48 PM

sadams04 said:
All the motherboards recommended in this thread are all Z68 (except for one P67 from your friend) so other than some specific option you can read about in the description, they all offer the same features. The ASROCK Extreme 3 is a budget choice. The ASUS is more high(er) end having PCIe 3.0 support and UEFI BIOS.


hmm I understand thanks a lot

I think I must make sure it supports the upcoming Ivy Bridge . Should I care about MHz a lot ? Is there a recommended number like : "Mobos below 2000MHz are *** ! ""
a b V Motherboard
February 23, 2012 1:56:44 PM

masterandapprentice said:
hmm I understand thanks a lot

I think I must make sure it supports the upcoming Ivy Bridge . Should I care about MHz a lot ? Is there a recommended number like : "Mobos below 2000MHz are *** ! ""



Any Z68 motherboard (socket LGA 1155) should support Ivy Bridge. Perhaps some motherboards will need a BIOS update, but the upgrade path from Sandy Bridge to Ivy Bridge is there.. All Z68 motherboards support overclocking and there are reports of solid overclocking (4.5ish GHz) on all motherboard manufacturers. Your speed will depend on your CPU stock speed (the i5-2500k is at 3.3GHz) or any overclocking settings. ASUS, ASRock and Gigabyte are often recommended for their price-to-performance ratio, reliability and good ratings. You very well may have good results with other vendors as well...

Best solution

a b å Intel
a c 194 V Motherboard
February 23, 2012 2:35:57 PM
Share

1. Ya sked about which chipset..... Sandy Bridge choices for gamers are primarily P8P67 and P8Z68. To decide if you need Z68.... read this:

http://www.ukgamingcomputers.co.uk/difference-between-h...

Quote:
Z68
Launched 5 months after the P67 and H67 chipset the Z68 chipset combines the advantages of the H67 and P67 Chipset so that overclocking, dual dedicated graphics cards and use of the integrated CPU graphics is available. Whilst on the surface it would seem that this would be the chipset to go for, how many users that have 2 dedicated graphics cards will actually want to use the onboard graphics when they already have 2 more powerful graphics cards in their system anyway?

The only real advantage is for users that wish to access the HD graphics features such as quick sync, but considering it’s only supported by very few transcoding programs and there are not many people out there that need or will want to transcode, it makes it almost pointless to choose Z68 over a P67 chipset.

Same applies to users that want to overclock the CPU but use the onboard graphics card; it’s a very limited market.

Finally, another feature of a Z68 chipset is known as SSD caching which is where it allows the use of a small (say 10 or 20 GB) Solid state hard drive to act as a cache for a larger ‘traditional’ hard disk. If you are already planning the use of a Solid State drive this feature is redundant.

If you can’t afford a decent size SSD (40GB+) then there are more cost effective ways around using a small SSD and SSD cashing like spending less on a motherboard, (H67 chipset or even a P67 chipset) and putting the saved money into a decent size SSD.


To my mind, I don't see anything that screams at me that I need Z68.... if ya can save money (as much as $50 in some instances) and are tight on budgets, I see no real reason that anyone "needs" Z68.

2. Decide if you want the ability to start with or upgrade to SLI or CF. Historically, to my mind this was / is the best way to add another 18 months of life to a machine that is getting tired with age. However, given the fact that for example, twin 900Mhz GTX 560 Ti's get 862 fps in Guru3D's game test suite for $410 to the GTX 580's 616 fps (40% less) for $500, it's a damn fine way to start out a new build w/ a lot more performance.

3. If buying high end GFX cards, decide if x16 x16 on the PCI-E lines will be of interest to you. For the most part, benchies show only a moderate increase (2-5%) in average fps, however this will not be be evident on moderate to low end cards (< $200). Some games actually show an increase as high as10% (i.e. STALKER) and the extra bandwidth has a greater impact on minimum frame rates as compared with average frame rates. This feature which comes via the addition of an NF200 chip can add between $10 and $60 to the cost of a MoBo.

4. Make sure it has the features you need, camera buffs may want a firewire port for example. You also don't wanna pay extra for the most expensive MoBo in a line just because it *is* the most expensive....you may find that a step down for significant savings is only missing a 2nd LAN port for example... a feature most desktop owner shave no use for.

5. Check the line for a similarly priced product that has a 5 year warranty, though under no circumstances would I select a MoBo manufacturer (i.e Asrock) with less than an industry standard 3 year warranty.

6. Buy the MoBo and CPU in a newegg combo is at all possible.

Popular choices:

$390 Asus P8P67 Pro w/ i5-2500k
$20 MIR - $16 Promo (10% off w/ promo code EMCNHHJ79, limited time )
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?Ite...

$450 Asus WS Revolution w/ NF200 chip and i5-2500k
$20 MIR and $22.50 promo (10% off w/ promo code EMCNHHJ79, limited time)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?Ite...

$205 Asus P8Z68 Pro + $226 i5-2500k
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

RAM - high speed RAM, despite popular opinion, does have an impact on gaming (typically 2-5%) ....the question is it enough to justify the additional cost ? Unless you have other reasons to have hi speed RAM, I'd say no unless ya have a big budget. Pick one of these:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Productcompare.aspx?Submi...|20-233-196^20-233-196-TS%2C20-233-186^20-233-186-TS%2C20-233-199^20-233-199-TS

PSU - A 750 watter will handle twin 6950's, 6970's, 7950's, 7970's, 560 Ti s and 570's. But if overclocking the CPU and the GFX cards, I'd get an 850 watter.

First Choices (10.0 jonnyguru performance rating):

Antec CP-850
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...
$115 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Antec SG-850
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...
$250 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Corsair HX850
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...
$160 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

XFX Black Edition
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...

Second Choices (9.5 jonnyguru performance rating):

Antec TPQ-850
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...
$130 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Antec HCG-900
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...
$140 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Corsair TX V2
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...
$125 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Corsai AX-850
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...
$170 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

XFX Core Edition 850
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...
$120 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Seasonic MD12 850
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...


NZXT Hale90
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...
$180 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Third Choices (9.0 jonnyguru performance rating)

Antec HCP-850
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...

Enermax Revolution 85+
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...

Others

Toughpower XT 850 (8.5)
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...

OCZ Z Series 850 (8.5)
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...

Silverstone Element ST85EF (6.0)
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...

GFX Card - With budget an issue, I'd concentrate on the "best bang for the buck" in which cost of the card(s) in dollars per frame is the best criteria.

Guru3D uses the following games in their test suite, COD-MW, Bad Company 2, Dirt 2, Far Cry 2, Metro 2033, Dawn of Discovery, Crysis Warhead. Total fps (summing fps in each game @ 1920 x 1200) for the various options in parenthesis (single card / SL or CF) are tabulated below along with their cost in dollars per frame single card - CF or SLI:

$ 155.00 460-768 MB (314/592) $ 0.49 - $ 0.52
$ 155.00 6850 (371/634) $ 0.42 - $ 0.49
$ 160.00 6870 (434/701) $ 0.37 - $ 0.46
$ 220.00 6950 (479/751) $ 0.46 - $ 0.59
$ 240.00 6950 Frozr OC (484/759) $ 0.50 - $ 0.63
$ 205.00 560 Ti (455/792) $ 0.45 - $ 0.52
$ 320.00 6970 (526/825) $ 0.61 - $ 0.78
$ 205.00 560 Ti - 900 Mhz (495/862) $ 0.41 - $ 0.48
$ 340.00 570 (524/873) $ 0.65 - $ 0.78
$ 500.00 580 (616/953) $ 0.81 - $ 1.05
$ 450.00 7950 (603/NG*) $ 0.75 - ERR
$ 550.00 7970 (675/NG*) $ 0.81 - ERR

* did not complete test, expected to be resolved in future driver updates

The 6870 (434 fps single card / 701 in CF) is a card I recommend a lot because that 37 cents per frame as a single card and 46 cents per frame in CF is well below any other option. Next up is the 900 Mhz 560 Ti (495 fps single card / 862 in SLI) which comes in with 14 / 23% more fps in single card / SLI at 41 cents per frame as a single card and 48 cents per frame in CF.

I can't see any of the top end cards (580, 7950, 7970) as their 75 to 81 cents per frame costs are way too high, especially when two of the above cards in SLI / CF blow their doors off for much less money.
February 23, 2012 4:16:07 PM

JackNaylorPE said:
1. Ya sked about which chipset..... Sandy Bridge choices for gamers are primarily P8P67 and P8Z68. To decide if you need Z68.... read this:

http://www.ukgamingcomputers.co.uk/difference-between-h...

Quote:
Z68
Launched 5 months after the P67 and H67 chipset the Z68 chipset combines the advantages of the H67 and P67 Chipset so that overclocking, dual dedicated graphics cards and use of the integrated CPU graphics is available. Whilst on the surface it would seem that this would be the chipset to go for, how many users that have 2 dedicated graphics cards will actually want to use the onboard graphics when they already have 2 more powerful graphics cards in their system anyway?

The only real advantage is for users that wish to access the HD graphics features such as quick sync, but considering it’s only supported by very few transcoding programs and there are not many people out there that need or will want to transcode, it makes it almost pointless to choose Z68 over a P67 chipset.

Same applies to users that want to overclock the CPU but use the onboard graphics card; it’s a very limited market.

Finally, another feature of a Z68 chipset is known as SSD caching which is where it allows the use of a small (say 10 or 20 GB) Solid state hard drive to act as a cache for a larger ‘traditional’ hard disk. If you are already planning the use of a Solid State drive this feature is redundant.

If you can’t afford a decent size SSD (40GB+) then there are more cost effective ways around using a small SSD and SSD cashing like spending less on a motherboard, (H67 chipset or even a P67 chipset) and putting the saved money into a decent size SSD.


To my mind, I don't see anything that screams at me that I need Z68.... if ya can save money (as much as $50 in some instances) and are tight on budgets, I see no real reason that anyone "needs" Z68.

2. Decide if you want the ability to start with or upgrade to SLI or CF. Historically, to my mind this was / is the best way to add another 18 months of life to a machine that is getting tired with age. However, given the fact that for example, twin 900Mhz GTX 560 Ti's get 862 fps in Guru3D's game test suite for $410 to the GTX 580's 616 fps (40% less) for $500, it's a damn fine way to start out a new build w/ a lot more performance.

3. If buying high end GFX cards, decide if x16 x16 on the PCI-E lines will be of interest to you. For the most part, benchies show only a moderate increase (2-5%) in average fps, however this will not be be evident on moderate to low end cards (< $200). Some games actually show an increase as high as10% (i.e. STALKER) and the extra bandwidth has a greater impact on minimum frame rates as compared with average frame rates. This feature which comes via the addition of an NF200 chip can add between $10 and $60 to the cost of a MoBo.

4. Make sure it has the features you need, camera buffs may want a firewire port for example. You also don't wanna pay extra for the most expensive MoBo in a line just because it *is* the most expensive....you may find that a step down for significant savings is only missing a 2nd LAN port for example... a feature most desktop owner shave no use for.

5. Check the line for a similarly priced product that has a 5 year warranty, though under no circumstances would I select a MoBo manufacturer (i.e Asrock) with less than an industry standard 3 year warranty.

6. Buy the MoBo and CPU in a newegg combo is at all possible.

Popular choices:

$390 Asus P8P67 Pro w/ i5-2500k
$20 MIR - $16 Promo (10% off w/ promo code EMCNHHJ79, limited time )
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?Ite...

$450 Asus WS Revolution w/ NF200 chip and i5-2500k
$20 MIR and $22.50 promo (10% off w/ promo code EMCNHHJ79, limited time)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?Ite...

$205 Asus P8Z68 Pro + $226 i5-2500k
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

RAM - high speed RAM, despite popular opinion, does have an impact on gaming (typically 2-5%) ....the question is it enough to justify the additional cost ? Unless you have other reasons to have hi speed RAM, I'd say no unless ya have a big budget. Pick one of these:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Productcompare.aspx?Submi...|20-233-196^20-233-196-TS%2C20-233-186^20-233-186-TS%2C20-233-199^20-233-199-TS

PSU - A 750 watter will handle twin 6950's, 6970's, 7950's, 7970's, 560 Ti s and 570's. But if overclocking the CPU and the GFX cards, I'd get an 850 watter.

First Choices (10.0 jonnyguru performance rating):

Antec CP-850
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...
$115 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Antec SG-850
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...
$250 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Corsair HX850
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...
$160 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

XFX Black Edition
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...

Second Choices (9.5 jonnyguru performance rating):

Antec TPQ-850
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...
$130 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Antec HCG-900
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...
$140 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Corsair TX V2
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...
$125 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Corsai AX-850
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...
$170 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

XFX Core Edition 850
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...
$120 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Seasonic MD12 850
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...


NZXT Hale90
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...
$180 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Third Choices (9.0 jonnyguru performance rating)

Antec HCP-850
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...

Enermax Revolution 85+
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...

Others

Toughpower XT 850 (8.5)
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...

OCZ Z Series 850 (8.5)
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...

Silverstone Element ST85EF (6.0)
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=...

GFX Card - With budget an issue, I'd concentrate on the "best bang for the buck" in which cost of the card(s) in dollars per frame is the best criteria.

Guru3D uses the following games in their test suite, COD-MW, Bad Company 2, Dirt 2, Far Cry 2, Metro 2033, Dawn of Discovery, Crysis Warhead. Total fps (summing fps in each game @ 1920 x 1200) for the various options in parenthesis (single card / SL or CF) are tabulated below along with their cost in dollars per frame single card - CF or SLI:

$ 155.00 460-768 MB (314/592) $ 0.49 - $ 0.52
$ 155.00 6850 (371/634) $ 0.42 - $ 0.49
$ 160.00 6870 (434/701) $ 0.37 - $ 0.46
$ 220.00 6950 (479/751) $ 0.46 - $ 0.59
$ 240.00 6950 Frozr OC (484/759) $ 0.50 - $ 0.63
$ 205.00 560 Ti (455/792) $ 0.45 - $ 0.52
$ 320.00 6970 (526/825) $ 0.61 - $ 0.78
$ 205.00 560 Ti - 900 Mhz (495/862) $ 0.41 - $ 0.48
$ 340.00 570 (524/873) $ 0.65 - $ 0.78
$ 500.00 580 (616/953) $ 0.81 - $ 1.05
$ 450.00 7950 (603/NG*) $ 0.75 - ERR
$ 550.00 7970 (675/NG*) $ 0.81 - ERR

* did not complete test, expected to be resolved in future driver updates

The 6870 (434 fps single card / 701 in CF) is a card I recommend a lot because that 37 cents per frame as a single card and 46 cents per frame in CF is well below any other option. Next up is the 900 Mhz 560 Ti (495 fps single card / 862 in SLI) which comes in with 14 / 23% more fps in single card / SLI at 41 cents per frame as a single card and 48 cents per frame in CF.

I can't see any of the top end cards (580, 7950, 7970) as their 75 to 81 cents per frame costs are way too high, especially when two of the above cards in SLI / CF blow their doors off for much less money.





you , sir , are the god of hardware.
a b V Motherboard
February 23, 2012 9:49:10 PM

masterandapprentice said:
for some reason the place im gonna be buying the system sux when it comes to power supplies. the only decent one seems to be the one I picked. None of the bands you offered exist here. I HAVE TO stick with this , is it really that bad ? :( 

the one I picked is shown as 80+ certified , might you have checked it wrong ?



please dont blindly suggest motherboards , that doesnt mean anything nor help me. Tell reasons why you suggest them , like " their chipsets are new , they'll offer great performance " , "this mobo's mhz rulez ! " or " this mobo has this reward " and stuff like that so my brain and heart would accept it :p 

thank you very much.


Where is the place you are buying? The links I found on that power supply said nothing about 80 Plus. However, if it is, 80 Plus should be fine.

As for motherboards, either ASUS or Gigabyte will do. The P67 is older tech, but still works. The more modern z68 would be preferred. The difference in the boards is features. It is up to you to decide if you need those features or not. If you do not understand them, Google can be your friend.

I have been building computers since 1986. I do not blindly suggest anything. I was not more specific as my time is valuable, and being more specific was not necessary.
February 23, 2012 9:53:42 PM

tlmck said:
Where is the place you are buying? The links I found on that power supply said nothing about 80 Plus. However, if it is, 80 Plus should be fine.

As for motherboards, either ASUS or Gigabyte will do. The P67 is older tech, but still works. The more modern z68 would be preferred. The difference in the boards is features. It is up to you to decide if you need those features or not. If you do not understand them, Google can be your friend.

I have been building computers since 1986. I do not blindly suggest anything. I was not more specific as my time is valuable, and being more specific was not necessary.



ooh nono blindly suggesting part was not meant for you mate ! sadams04 suggested 2 motherboards without explaining anything, i meant the msg for him!

I'll ask only one last thing about mobos:
this monster is 454$ :
GIGABYTE P67A-UD7-B3 i1155Pin DDR3 S+GL ATX

But it says P67 so its older chipset but why is it so expensive. If i can understand this I think I'll have the knowledge to decide on my own mainboard
February 24, 2012 4:43:21 PM

WhatDoesSSDmeansLol said:
ooh nono blindly suggesting part was not meant for you mate ! sadams04 suggested 2 motherboards without explaining anything, i meant the msg for him!

I'll ask only one last thing about mobos:
this monster is 454$ :
GIGABYTE P67A-UD7-B3 i1155Pin DDR3 S+GL ATX

But it says P67 so its older chipset but why is it so expensive. If i can understand this I think I'll have the knowledge to decide on my own mainboard



Hmm Im also curious about the answer of that question tbh ^^ I also wish to understand the motherboard by reading their titles so I can be more aware of the situation when I decide to buy a mobo

Anyone answer his question yo ? ^^
February 27, 2012 7:59:40 AM

Best answer selected by masterandapprentice.
!