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Anonymous
June 24, 2005 6:37:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

A simple and probably stupid question. Can I use the same type of
filters which I used with both black & white film and colour with a
digital camera? (Canon EOS 350D).

Thanks

Angus

More about : digital photography

Anonymous
June 24, 2005 6:37:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Angus" <macdonald@1692.co.uk> wrote in message
news:aiomb1drbjru4np65rj8150mmvk1qrge8b@4ax.com...
>A simple and probably stupid question. Can I use the same type of
> filters which I used with both black & white film and colour with a
> digital camera? (Canon EOS 350D).
>
> Thanks
>
> Angus

Yes you can. Some are not necessary as the effect can be emulated in the
software. Some filters can't be easily emulated such as a polarizer filter.
John
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 6:37:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In a word YES.
Related resources
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 6:37:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Angus" <macdonald@1692.co.uk> wrote in message
news:aiomb1drbjru4np65rj8150mmvk1qrge8b@4ax.com...
>A simple and probably stupid question. Can I use the same type of
> filters which I used with both black & white film and colour with a
> digital camera? (Canon EOS 350D).
>
> Thanks
>
> Angus

With a caveat, they will behave like you're using color film, i.e. a 25
filter will give a red cast to the image, since it is a color image. I'm
not sure what effect it will have if you convert it to grayscale.
Does the 350D have a b&w mode like the 20D?

--
Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 8:30:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:08:53 -0700, Skip M wrote:

> "Angus" <macdonald@1692.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:aiomb1drbjru4np65rj8150mmvk1qrge8b@4ax.com...
>>A simple and probably stupid question. Can I use the same type of
>> filters which I used with both black & white film and colour with a
>> digital camera? (Canon EOS 350D).
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Angus
>
> With a caveat, they will behave like you're using color film, i.e. a 25
> filter will give a red cast to the image, since it is a color image. I'm
> not sure what effect it will have if you convert it to grayscale.
> Does the 350D have a b&w mode like the 20D?
I don't know if it is the same as the 20D but it does have one - see page
65 in the manual.

--
neil
delete delete to reply
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 8:30:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Neil Ellwood" <charge@eater.pig> wrote in message
news:p an.2005.06.24.04.31.25.331001@eater.pig...
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:08:53 -0700, Skip M wrote:
>
>> "Angus" <macdonald@1692.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:aiomb1drbjru4np65rj8150mmvk1qrge8b@4ax.com...
>>>A simple and probably stupid question. Can I use the same type of
>>> filters which I used with both black & white film and colour with a
>>> digital camera? (Canon EOS 350D).
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Angus
>>
>> With a caveat, they will behave like you're using color film, i.e. a 25
>> filter will give a red cast to the image, since it is a color image. I'm
>> not sure what effect it will have if you convert it to grayscale.
>> Does the 350D have a b&w mode like the 20D?
> I don't know if it is the same as the 20D but it does have one - see page
> 65 in the manual.
>
> --
> neil
> delete delete to reply

Then it's probably just like that on the 20D, adding filter effects in
camera. (Don't have the camera, don't have the manual, so page reference
doesn't do me any good... ;-) ) Now you've raised an interesting question,
I'm going to put a 25 on my 20D and see what effect it has on b&w converted
from color post production and also in camera...

--
Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 11:33:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Angus wrote:

> A simple and probably stupid question. Can I use the same type of
> filters which I used with both black & white film and colour with a
> digital camera? (Canon EOS 350D).

Just one caveat.. Unlike film, digital cameras have a white balance
that always tries to find white and adjust the scene accordingly.
This feature can be tailored for different conditions, but it
can't be turned off.

Because of this, colored filters can't be counted on to produce the
same results as they would on a film camera. More often than not,
you can get far better results in post processing.
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 12:33:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Angus wrote:
> A simple and probably stupid question. Can I use the same type of
> filters which I used with both black & white film and colour with a
> digital camera? (Canon EOS 350D).
>
> Thanks
>
> Angus
Yes, you can. However, the effects will be somewhat different. Even
with film, panchromatic of course had a different response to filters
than orthochrome. Digital sensors have less blue response by themselves
than film, more red response. So the filters will be biased
accordingly. For instance, it may not be as necessary to use a
minus-blue filter in a given situation as it would be with most films.
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 4:40:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <7PKue.166$HV1.23@fed1read07>,
"Skip M" <shadowcatcher@cox.net> wrote:

> With a caveat, they will behave like you're using color film, i.e. a 25
> filter will give a red cast to the image, since it is a color image. I'm
> not sure what effect it will have if you convert it to grayscale.
> Does the 350D have a b&w mode like the 20D?

If you desaturate the image in PS it (Red 25) produces a rather nice
separation for clouds. Have not printed any as of yet but it does look
nice on screen.

--
LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 4:44:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Jim Townsend wrote:
[]
> Just one caveat.. Unlike film, digital cameras have a white balance
> that always tries to find white and adjust the scene accordingly.
> This feature can be tailored for different conditions, but it
> can't be turned off.
[]

Whether it can be turned off depends on the camera. With the better
models, you will have a choice of auto white balance, a number of presets
such as for electronic flash, and manual where you can point the camera at
something you know is white and tell is to take that as white.

You may also be able to capture the raw sensor data, which may amount to
turning off the white balance.

David
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 5:23:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On the Fri, 24 Jun 2005 02:11:45 GMT, "Arthur Small"
<arthurh@nycap.rr.com> wrote:

>In a word YES.
>
>

Thanks for all your contributions folks.
Regards,

Morph.

(Whoever I am today, I may not be tomorrow.)
Anonymous
June 25, 2005 6:23:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In message <11bnv4g6son1c01@news.supernews.com>,
Jim Townsend <not@real.address> wrote:

>Angus wrote:

>> A simple and probably stupid question. Can I use the same type of
>> filters which I used with both black & white film and colour with a
>> digital camera? (Canon EOS 350D).

>Just one caveat.. Unlike film, digital cameras have a white balance
>that always tries to find white and adjust the scene accordingly.
>This feature can be tailored for different conditions, but it
>can't be turned off.

>Because of this, colored filters can't be counted on to produce the
>same results as they would on a film camera. More often than not,
>you can get far better results in post processing.

If you shoot in RAW, or use a white balance that is static, there is no
difference from doing it with film. A colored filter will change each
color channel's response curve.


--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Anonymous
June 25, 2005 6:26:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In message <neTue.55665$G8.39278@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
"David J Taylor"
<david-taylor@blueyonder.co.not-this-bit.nor-this-part.uk.invalid>
wrote:

>You may also be able to capture the raw sensor data, which may amount to
>turning off the white balance.

For most RGB Bayer cameras, the native white balance is actually
magenta; red a stop, and blue a half stop stronger than the green is the
kind of light you need to get "white" (R=G=B) RAW data. Or, looking at
it the other way, a white object in white light will be cyan-ish green
(red a stop weaker, and blue, a half stop weaker, in the RAW data).
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Anonymous
June 25, 2005 11:19:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

JPS@no.komm wrote:
[]
> For most RGB Bayer cameras, the native white balance is actually
> magenta; red a stop, and blue a half stop stronger than the green is
> the kind of light you need to get "white" (R=G=B) RAW data. Or,
> looking at it the other way, a white object in white light will be
> cyan-ish green (red a stop weaker, and blue, a half stop weaker, in
> the RAW data).

All a combination of the spectral response of the sensor, the filters, and
the relative energy in the spectrum of the (white) light source, I
presume?

David
Anonymous
June 25, 2005 3:07:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In message <Fz7ve.56069$G8.13957@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
"David J Taylor"
<david-taylor@blueyonder.co.not-this-bit.nor-this-part.uk.invalid>
wrote:

>JPS@no.komm wrote:
>[]
>> For most RGB Bayer cameras, the native white balance is actually
>> magenta; red a stop, and blue a half stop stronger than the green is
>> the kind of light you need to get "white" (R=G=B) RAW data. Or,
>> looking at it the other way, a white object in white light will be
>> cyan-ish green (red a stop weaker, and blue, a half stop weaker, in
>> the RAW data).
>
>All a combination of the spectral response of the sensor, the filters, and
>the relative energy in the spectrum of the (white) light source, I
>presume?

That's the whole system, from input to RAW data, based on
continuous-spectrum light (sunlight).
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Anonymous
June 25, 2005 3:27:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

<JPS@no.komm> wrote:
>
>>Because of this, colored filters can't be counted on to produce the
>>same results as they would on a film camera. More often than not,
>>you can get far better results in post processing.
>
> If you shoot in RAW, or use a white balance that is static, there is no
> difference from doing it with film. A colored filter will change each
> color channel's response curve.

Have you done a comparison shooting a scene with and without a deep red
filter and producing a B&W image from both? I'd worry about the Bayer
demosaicing getting confused. If there weren't any problems, an external
deep red filter might provide a stronger effect than the on-chip filters.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
Anonymous
June 25, 2005 5:29:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In message <d9ifek$7mk$1@nnrp.gol.com>,
"David J. Littleboy" <davidjl@gol.com> wrote:

><JPS@no.komm> wrote:
>>
>>>Because of this, colored filters can't be counted on to produce the
>>>same results as they would on a film camera. More often than not,
>>>you can get far better results in post processing.
>>
>> If you shoot in RAW, or use a white balance that is static, there is no
>> difference from doing it with film. A colored filter will change each
>> color channel's response curve.
>
>Have you done a comparison shooting a scene with and without a deep red
>filter and producing a B&W image from both? I'd worry about the Bayer
>demosaicing getting confused. If there weren't any problems, an external
>deep red filter might provide a stronger effect than the on-chip filters.

I really don't think a B&W image should ever go through a demosaicing
stage, except, perhaps, to create a high-pass-filtered luminance channel
to overlay on a channel-mix of independantly interpolated color
channels. The tools available right now are far from optimal.
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
!