Upgrade advice

[courtney4]

I've tried to play some games recently, and it's gotten to the point whereby I'm getting a poor FPS even on low settings (i.e. on Diablo 3). I'm looking to upgrade, mainly for the extra performance in games.

My current machine:
- Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 @ 2.4GHz
- Gigabyte P35-DS3L motherboard
- 4x1GB DDR2 400MHz RAM (timings 5-5-5-15 - using CPU-Z)
- ATI radeon HD 4850 512MB stock speeds.
- 550W cheapo PSU

Do you think It would be a good idea to replace only the GPU? I'm quite happy with my processor, and I'm led to believe that it will not be a bottleneck for gaming. I'm considering something in the range of $300-400

However, I'm slightly concerned that my RAM, which was very cheap, might also be slowing me down. Perhaps even a complete overhaul is the best thing to do?

 

[SSri]

I've tried to play some games recently, and it's gotten to the point whereby I'm getting a poor FPS even on low settings (i.e. on Diablo 3). I'm looking to upgrade, mainly for the extra performance in games.

My current machine:
- Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 @ 2.4GHz
- Gigabyte P35-DS3L motherboard
- 4x1GB DDR2 400MHz RAM (timings 5-5-5-15 - using CPU-Z)
- ATI radeon HD 4850 512MB stock speeds.
- 550W cheapo PSU

Do you think It would be a good idea to replace only the GPU? I'm quite happy with my processor, and I'm led to believe that it will not be a bottleneck for gaming. I'm considering something in the range of $300-400

However, I'm slightly concerned that my RAM, which was very cheap, might also be slowing me down. Perhaps even a complete overhaul is the best thing to do?

I'm in a similar situation with a high end system that is 3 1/2 years old and is working well. I have decided not to upgrade but build a new one instead.

You may use your existing system as a home server and go for a new build....it is not worth upgrading any more. What's your budget anyway please? Are you looking to play CPU/memory intensive games?

 

[GI_JONES]

The Q6600 is a decent cpu. It compares to the PhenomII X4 955. You would see a big improvement going to a gtx560, or amd 6870 class card. Get a good psu like a Corsair cx500,youll be set

 

[quilciri]

I'm More concerned about your PSU. Unless you're upgrading to a 7000 series, the +12v on it could be an issue. What is it's amperage? (look on the sticker on the side of the PSU, will say something like +12v@XXa)

 

[Outlander_04]

I'd spend $250 on a Radeon 7850 .

YOu may run in to a restriction in your fps , BUT you will be able to turn graphic detail to highest setting and keep playing

 

[courtney4]

I'm More concerned about your PSU. Unless you're upgrading to a 7000 series, the +12v on it could be an issue. What is it's amperage? (look on the sticker on the side of the PSU, will say something like +12v@XXa)

Looks like this:

+3.3V - 28A
+5V - 30A
+12V1 - 16A

+12V2 - 16A
-12V - 0.3A
+5VSB - 2.5A

Wow, lots of replies thanks everyone.

 

[SSri]

Several issues could come into play as far as the upgrade is concerned. As GI_JONES and recon-UK pointed out, you have got a good CPU. If you want to play games, your RAM may not be sufficient for medium to high-end games. DDR2 RAM is damn expensive. I won't upgrade the RAM. The DDR3 RAM would probably cost at a third or 40% of the DDR2 price. But, I do not think your mobo would be compatible with the DDR3 RAM. The graphics card that others recommend are pretty good giving you a good system for games, assuming PSU could is not an issue ("quilciri"); if not, it becomes another expense on an old CPU system. Upgrade or New Build is always a difficult decision.

 

[courtney4]

I'm in a similar situation with a high end system that is 3 1/2 years old and is working well. I have decided not to upgrade but build a new one instead.

You may use your existing system as a home server and go for a new build....it is not worth upgrading any more. What's your budget anyway please? Are you looking to play CPU/memory intensive games?

Actually, my parents are looking to upgrade their old computer (very old). I was considering just buying them a standard $550 all-in-one Dell or something. If I could overhaul my computer for that price and re-use some parts I'd be very happy.

I'd need to buy a new CPU, mobo, gpu, RAM, case and PSU though.

 

[quilciri]

Yeah, that's a pretty weak 12v (12v * 16a = 192 watts). Drop that by 15% for PSU age is 163 watts. If you want to stay in the max efficiency window for your PSU, you'll need to stay under 75% of that, so 122 watts is your comfortable ceiling for GPU power.

You pretty much *have* to use a 7000 series. The GTX 480 isn't an option on that PSU as it can draw well over 200w at peak.

The 7850 draws 100w @ load, 7870 uses 115w.

*i take that back, I believe the 480 uses an 8 pin and a 6 pin, so if your PSU has an 8 pin or you buy an adapter, you could use both of your 12v rails to power it and still be ok. Your PSU would still be pushed pretty hard, though.

 

[Outlander_04]

Several issues could come into play as far as the upgrade is concerned. As GI_JONES and recon-UK pointed out, you have got a good CPU. If you want to play games, your RAM may not be sufficient for medium to high-end games. DDR2 RAM is damn expensive. I won't upgrade the RAM. The DDR3 RAM would probably cost at a third or 40% of the DDR2 price. But, I do not think your mobo would be compatible with the DDR3 RAM. The graphics card that others recommend are pretty good giving you a good system for games, assuming PSU could is not an issue ("quilciri"); if not, it becomes another expense on an old CPU system. Upgrade or New Build is always a difficult decision.

DDR3 RAM is fractionally faster than DDR2 ,if at all . The frequency may be higher but the latencies are much higher too so the gain is mostly theoretical and not something anyone would ever notice in the real world .

And 4 gigs of RAM is plenty for gaming . The game is a 32 bit program . It cant use more than about 3 gig or RAM even when you run it in a 64 bit operating system . Its absolutely not coincidental that no one makes a graphics card with more than 3 gig of RAM

 

[quilciri]

Its absolutely not coincidental that no one makes a graphics card with more than 3 gig of RAM

This is so wrong...

That has absolutely nothing to do with how much system RAM a game uses. No game has had direct access to video memory since the directX API was invented, so it doesn't matter if the game client is 32 bit or 64 bit. As long as the client OS is 64 bit, the game can use any amount of video RAM (Up to the 16 exabytes total system+video RAM that can be addressed by a 64 bit OS).

Not to mention, it's wrong on the other count as well.
http://www.amazon.com/Sapphire-Radeon-PCI-Express-Graphics-100310SR/dp/B004R1Q4VW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1335253548&sr=8-1

 

[quilciri]

No, It is actually 4gb, from what I've read. That is the one way it is different than xfire'd 6970's. It uses a shared cache of 4gb rather than replicating Data between 2 sets of RAM like a normal SLI/xfire setup.

 

[Outlander_04]

The "4 gig" card you mention is a crossfire set up and each processor has two gig of RAM that mirror each other .....

You are also wrong about the DX API's
Under DX 9 the graphics memory was an exact mirror of system memory . That is no longer true , but the game still cant access more than about 3 gig of RAM

 

[Outlander_04]

Crossfire set ups mirror the data in the card vRAM

The "4 gig" card actually has 2 x2 gig , and each of those 2 gig is a mirror of the other . The 32 bit limitation is NOT broken

 

[quilciri]

Proof or it never happened.

I like how you went with the insulting meme comment instead of politely asking for more information.

Here's how xfire normally works.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-geforce-stutter-crossfire,2995-2.html

The entire buffer need to be copied form the 2nd card to the one connected to the monitor, so the RAM is mirrored.

On the 6990, Only the synchronization information is shared, and the frame is directly rendered from either set of RAM. While each GPU only has 2gb to itself, the rendering infromation is not mirrored like in a normal xfire setup, resulting in effectively 4gb.

Incidentally, the 4870x2 is set up the same way. Why do you think there is microstuttering with 2 4870's in crossfire, but not a single 4870x2. They both use AFR, so if your theory is correct, the 4870x2 should suffer from microstutter as well.

 

[quilciri]

The "4 gig" card you mention is a crossfire set up and each processor has two gig of RAM that mirror each other .....

You are also wrong about the DX API's
Under DX 9 the graphics memory was an exact mirror of system memory . That is no longer true , but the game still cant access more than about 3 gig of RAM

Surfaces can exist in system RAM or in the video card's memory. Where we should put the surface depends on what we want to do with it. Blits between system RAM and video RAM are slow because the data needs to be transferred over the system bus. The bus usually runs at a lower clock rate than the system RAM or the video card, causing both of them to sit around waiting for the bits to be sent

That's from page 53. of Advanced 3-D game programming using directX 7.0 by adrian perez. So unless there was some massive regression for directx9, that's not true. While rendering information does need to be copied to the video card before it can be sent to the monitor, that does not mean that video RAM was a mirror of system RAM under dx9.

 

[SSri]

I'm afraid this tread is deviating from Courtney4's request. He is looking to spend $550 to keep his system going.

I am not a gamer; I would therefore not comment if 4GB or 8GB is appropriate. There are many reviews/articles that suggest DDR3 is twice faster than DDR2. I would try to trace those links and post. The point is simple: I won't replace the DDR2 RAM as is too expensive to replace. I keep current the DDR2 RAM, as long as it is working fine (it does not matter if it is cheap or expensive). I would run a memtest to check if there are any errors. If Memtest does not throw out any error, I won't replace the DDR2 RAM. Period.

"quilciri" already suggested his PSU may be a little too tight to take a new GPU. He would have to try running it with an adaptor to check if this is fine.

He has a good processor, which is probably enough for his gaming. A decent GPU (GTX 460 is 150-160W) is probably enough to give a good gaming performance. Would a GTX 460 stretch his PSU? Perhaps, "quilciri" may advise him on this....

On a different note, Courtney4 could consider the following:

(1) If your parents do not mind, how about giving your PC to them. You may clean the PC with a clean format and reinstall the OS, applications and security software. I assume that their PC requirements are mainly for email, browsing, etc. If correct, your PC is more than sufficient for their needs.

(2) You save $550 off your parents new PC plus an additional $550 that you are willing to spend on a rehaul; both gives you a nice $1100 to spend on a new build, which you may overclock (if you like) for your use!

 

[Outlander_04]

That's from page 53. of Advanced 3-D game programming using directX 7.0 by adrian perez. So unless there was some massive regression for directx9, that's not true. While rendering information does need to be copied to the video card before it can be sent to the monitor, that does not mean that video RAM was a mirror of system RAM under dx9.[/quotemsg]


DX 7 was designed in the days of AGP . Typically an awesome graphics card had 32 megabytes of RAM , but most had 8 or 16 .

And from memory the AGP bus only runs in one direction . The pci-e link is bi-directional

I dont think you have made a relevant point .
You certainly haven't demonstrated that 32 bit games can make use of more than the 3.2 gig limitation that all programs and OSes experience

 

[quilciri]

I think you're missing the point. I'm not trying to prove a 32 bit game client addresses more than 4 gig of ram. I'm saying it didn't matter how much ram the video card has, because the game client never addresses it at all. It's entirely obfuscated by the API. The fact that video card typically has less ram than the system is mostly a matter of the cost involved in producing ram fast enough for the video card.

Agp/pcie is also irrelevant. The hardware-API interface design need not have anything to do with the API-client design. That would be like saying two different cars need to have differently designed steering wheels because they have different engines.

 

[quilciri]

I think you're missing the point. I'm not trying to prove a 32 bit game client addresses more than 4 gig of ram. I'm saying it didn't matter how much ram the video card has, because the game client never addresses it at all. It's entirely obfuscated by the API. The fact that video card typically has less ram than the system is mostly a matter of the cost involved in producing ram fast enough for the video card.

Agp/pcie is also irrelevant. The hardware-API interface design need not have anything to do with the API-client design. That would be like saying two different cars need to have differently designed steering wheels because they have different engines.

 

[quilciri]

I think you're missing the point. I'm not trying to prove a 32 bit game client addresses more than 4 gig of ram. I'm saying it didn't matter how much ram the video card has, because the game client never addresses it at all. It's entirely obfuscated by the API. The fact that video card typically has less ram than the system is mostly a matter of the cost involved in producing ram fast enough for the video card.

Agp/pcie is also irrelevant. The hardware-API interface design need not have anything to do with the API-client design. That would be like saying two different cars need to have differently designed steering wheels because they have different engines.

 

[quilciri]

Sorry about multiple post. Will fix when I get home. Phone having issues.

 

[quilciri]

grr, can't delete those posts for some reason. apologies again.

 

[justindadswell]

To consider. For my needs as of late, considering computer hardware has far surpassed software. I try to keep my power low, so I would go 7750 (only 50W on load, most are 100W+ check charts here for Watts on cards). It has performance in the range of other high end cards (you wont notice any lag on anything, Skyrim plays perfect as does Crysis1/2). For cpu, you might want bring it up to about 3.2Ghz. If I remember right I had my Q6600 sitting at about 3.4 with only tweeking the multiplier and frequency, it ran for a good 3 years without any problems.