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Realistic Performance Drop From 7850 to GTX 560 Ti

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May 1, 2012 1:05:55 AM

Hello,

So I probably need to shave some money off of the build I'm making. It's $800, and I will probably need to get it lower. I'm thinking of cutting the GPU. Now, before you scream, "NO! That's what makes a gaming computer a gaming computer!", I'll tell you that at this point, I'm not sacrificing CPU performance. Basically, let's assume that it's down to the GPU (it's not). I want to know how much performance I will realistically lose from dropping from a 7850 to a 560 Ti. I mean, we all know the 7850 is better... but is it like 2fps better, or 20fps better? Here's some relevant info:

Monitor res: 1680x1050, but 1080p is in the future
Games: First person shooters such as BF3 and CoD, as well as Skyrim. No Starcraft or WoW ;) 
Links: MSI Twin Frozr II OC 560 Ti NCIX - $224
or
GTX 560 Ti Newegg - $232

ASUS 7850 - $268


Now seriously... when we get down to the actual performance, how much worse is it going to be?

Thanks!

EDIT: Ah, yes, and I will definitely be overclocking. It's going in a Fractal R3 case, so the cooling needs to be good, but I will be overclocking. However, I like factory OCed versions because I don't have a side fan.
May 1, 2012 2:34:49 AM

The ASUS and Sapphire OC edition 7850s are known for serious overclockability. My Sapphire is running 1200/1450 easily with a little extra juice, and that's a 40% OC. It benches higher than a 580 and is just shy of a 7950 in performance.

You won't get that kind of OC on a 560 ti. Just make sure you go for one of the brands I mentioned, assuming you are still comfortable OCing after reading this thread.
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May 1, 2012 12:13:45 PM

How much OCing room would there realistically be (in your opinion) without a side fan? I mean, in the case. Also, do you use the ASUS utility? I know even a lot of MSI users use the ASUS utility.
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May 1, 2012 7:54:39 PM

Yes, I saw that, and it's never above 7fps difference. The thing is that there must be some reason people are recommending the 7850 over the 560 Ti... I mean, it's 7fps for like a $50 difference.

Will games in the future run more than 7fps faster on the 7850s? I know they have a higher clock speed.
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a c 291 U Graphics card
May 1, 2012 8:04:48 PM

People are obsessed with 'newer tech'. That 7 fps is around 15%, even though the card is 25% more expensive. GTX 560 Ti is way better bang for the buck.
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a c 88 U Graphics card
May 1, 2012 8:12:23 PM

The 560ti overclocks like a trooper...and you get really good gains
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May 1, 2012 8:13:48 PM

Do you know when the 660ti is supposed to come out?

Also, will it be better, or remarketed old cards?
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a c 88 U Graphics card
May 1, 2012 8:15:51 PM

The next 6xx series should be out soon, if you are not in a hurry you could wait to see what they are like , surely will drop the prices of the 560ti even more. They will be new cards , not rebadged.
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a c 91 U Graphics card
May 1, 2012 8:19:57 PM

Sunius said:
People are obsessed with 'newer tech'. That 7 fps is around 15%, even though the card is 25% more expensive. GTX 560 Ti is way better bang for the buck.

While I agree, it also depends on where that 7fps is, as 25fps is utterly unplayable, while 32fps can work. meanwhile, the difference between 53 and 60 fps is hardly noticeable at all...
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May 1, 2012 9:03:21 PM

Sunius said:
People are obsessed with 'newer tech'. That 7 fps is around 15%, even though the card is 25% more expensive. GTX 560 Ti is way better bang for the buck.


monsta said:
The 560ti overclocks like a trooper...and you get really good gains


you just aren't going to get close to a 7850 in terms of OC'ing a 560 ti.

tuffluck said:
My Sapphire is running 1200/1450 easily with a little extra juice, and that's a 40% OC. It benches higher than a 580 and is just shy of a 7950 in performance.

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a c 88 U Graphics card
May 1, 2012 9:20:52 PM

tuffluck said:
you just aren't going to get close to a 7850 in terms of OC'ing a 560 ti.



Do you own one?
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May 1, 2012 10:03:03 PM

I must say that I have seen some ASUS 7850 overclocks, and they have been VERY good. Is clock speed really all that matters, though? I don't think so... cores do, and memory speed does (a bit)... anything else? Shaders?

By the way, while I do agree on that 25fps vs 32 fps, keep in mind that in most games, that means a resolution higher than 1080p. In terms of longevity, if the 7850 will almost always be 7fps (give or take 3fps) above the 560 Ti, I'd go with the 560. I'm asking whether later on, the difference will get bigger.
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Best solution

May 1, 2012 10:19:50 PM

monsta said:
Do you own one?


yeah silly, i'm the one who posted the 1200/1450 clocks in the first place and quoted myself!

mine runs 1200/1450 @ 1.176v and maxes out at 71c on Unigine Heaven 3.0 after an hour. it can go higher and i've clocked it higher, and sapphire even directed me to stay under 1.2v and i "should be fine." i can get it up in the 1280 range on 1.2v, but honestly i like the 70c temps and prefer to leave it there...for now :D 

there are really only 3 versions that are good buys though. the heatsink/fans on all the other ones are not sufficient enough to keep the 1200+ clocks stable.

-ASUS
-MSI Twin Frozr II
-Sapphire OC Edition

ddan49 said:
I must say that I have seen some ASUS 7850 overclocks, and they have been VERY good. Is clock speed really all that matters, though? I don't think so... cores do, and memory speed does (a bit)... anything else? Shaders?

By the way, while I do agree on that 25fps vs 32 fps, keep in mind that in most games, that means a resolution higher than 1080p. In terms of longevity, if the 7850 will almost always be 7fps (give or take 3fps) above the 560 Ti, I'd go with the 560. I'm asking whether later on, the difference will get bigger.


i'm not sure what we're talking about anymore. it's pretty simple, really. if you plan to OC your 7850, it will beat a 580. if you don't, it's just an okay card and saving $30 to get a 560 ti may be worth it for you. if you're comparing the two cards and their capabilities unlocked, the 7850 screams for it's $250 price point. but it all comes down to what you are really comfortable with.
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May 1, 2012 11:08:51 PM

Okay, I realize I was pretty confusing. I do realize that the 7850 has potential for a very good overclock. I don't know how good of a potential the 560 Ti has, but from what I've seen, it seems to be less (still good at overclocking, just still not quite there). I am definitely going to OC my graphics card (as far as no side fan and my cooling system can allow)... whichever one I get. This is one question that has pretty much been answered (the 7850 can overclock better than the 560 Ti... in terms of %, not actual speeds). I do want to ask if the OCed 7850 can actually PERFORM at 580 (or 570) levels in actual GAMES... meaning fps. Sure, the clock speed can go up there, but will the actual fps go up to that level as well?

The second part of my question is this: will the gap in between the 7850 (stock) and 560 Ti (stock) in terms of fps always stay the same? Not counting games that are more optimized for NVidia or AMD. Meaning... right now, the difference is about 7 fps. In a couple of years, will the difference STILL be 7fps? Or will it be larger (or smaller)?
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a c 88 U Graphics card
May 1, 2012 11:35:18 PM

tuffluck said:
yeah silly, i'm the one who posted the 1200/1450 clocks in the first place and quoted myself!

mine runs 1200/1450 @ 1.176v and maxes out at 71c on Unigine Heaven 3.0 after an hour. it can go higher and i've clocked it higher, and sapphire even directed me to stay under 1.2v and i "should be fine." i can get it up in the 1280 range on 1.2v, but honestly i like the 70c temps and prefer to leave it there...for now :D 

there are really only 3 versions that are good buys though. the heatsink/fans on all the other ones are not sufficient enough to keep the 1200+ clocks stable.

-ASUS
-MSI Twin Frozr II
-Sapphire OC Edition



i'm not sure what we're talking about anymore. it's pretty simple, really. if you plan to OC your 7850, it will beat a 580. if you don't, it's just an okay card and saving $30 to get a 560 ti may be worth it for you. if you're comparing the two cards and their capabilities unlocked, the 7850 screams for it's $250 price point. but it all comes down to what you are really comfortable with.



A 560ti...obviously not.LOL
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May 1, 2012 11:51:41 PM

^What? I don't understand.
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a c 88 U Graphics card
May 2, 2012 12:04:56 AM

Asked if he had a 560ti, hard to comment on a cards overclocking if you dont own one.
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a c 592 U Graphics card
May 2, 2012 12:11:28 AM



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May 2, 2012 1:12:21 AM

Yeah, I know, the 560 Ti seems to perform better at lower resolutions. The problem is this: I am assuming that the 7850 will perform better at lower resolutions as games progress. Am I correct in that? Meaning, maybe 1080p now is the 1680x1050 of next year... so the 7850 would beat the 560 Ti in the long term.
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a c 91 U Graphics card
May 2, 2012 1:26:48 AM

ddan49 said:
Yeah, I know, the 560 Ti seems to perform better at lower resolutions. The problem is this: I am assuming that the 7850 will perform better at lower resolutions as games progress. Am I correct in that? Meaning, maybe 1080p now is the 1680x1050 of next year... so the 7850 would beat the 560 Ti in the long term.

that is definitely true. we're headed away from 1080p in the near future toward 2560x1600
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May 2, 2012 2:20:52 AM

monsta said:
Asked if he had a 560ti, hard to comment on a cards overclocking if you dont own one.


uh, no you did not. you actually just asked if i had "one" and i assumed you meant 7850. be more clear next time.

monsta said:
Do you own one?


besides, the below link shows a 560 ti with a 23% OC and it doesn't even come close to a 580, and as i mentioned before, a 7850 with a 40% OC will reach 7950 performance levels, which is higher than a 580. so, i don't really see how it's even a comparison.

http://www.techspot.com/review/359-nvidia-geforce-gtx-5...
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a c 592 U Graphics card
May 2, 2012 3:02:20 AM

tuffluck said:
uh, no you did not. you actually just asked if i had "one" and i assumed you meant 7850. be more clear next time.



besides, the below link shows a 560 ti with a 23% OC and it doesn't even come close to a 580, and as i mentioned before, a 7850 with a 40% OC will reach 7950 performance levels, which is higher than a 580. so, i don't really see how it's even a comparison.

http://www.techspot.com/review/359-nvidia-geforce-gtx-5...

According to those charts an overclocked GTX 560 Ti runs faster than a GTX 570 and a 6970, which would make it a pretty competitive option against a significantly more expensive 7850. Don't forget, with the 560 you also get the bundle: PhysX, Adaptive VSync, FXAA, TXAA, and Geforce Experience.
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a c 291 U Graphics card
May 2, 2012 5:14:02 AM

That 7 fps is too subjective. I'd be damned by I'd rate the performance difference in percentage, because that's what matters (not subjective fps numbers). HD 7850 is around 10-15% faster. You won't be losing much by going for GTX 560 Ti - it's a great card, overclocks like a champ. It will surpass HD 7850 stock speeds when overclocked. It won't match it when HD 7850 is overclocked - but still, the overclocking potencial is great. Of course, it will be slower than HD 7850, but you get many benefits as well: nvidia drivers, physx, FXAA, and other things! It's also better bang for the buck. So if you cannot spend money for HD 7850, definitely go for GTX 560 Ti, it's a great card, you won't be sorry!
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May 2, 2012 12:14:06 PM

I never even considered the actual brand perspective. So NVidia is better, as a brand (at the moment)? Is it better for BF3? I've seen something (although a while back, before the 78xx series) that said Radeon was better because it stuttered less (going from like 30fps to 60fps... I mean, not that extreme, but you get the point). I'm starting to lean towards the 560 Ti. Unfortunately, it seems like the 660 Ti isn't going to be released any time soon!
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/GeForce-GTX660-Ti-Kepl...

:(  So would you recommend the MSI Twin Frozr II OC Edition? It's got nice cooling, but it's priced higher than the others. I know ASUS and Gigabyte are good (EVGA doesn't stand out enough for me... not really good cooling or OCs. Correct me if I'm wrong). Anything you would recommend?

I guess AMD has the upper hand with Eyefinity (which I don't need), while Nvidia does with drivers/driver support and physX. Right?
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May 2, 2012 12:26:06 PM

Quote:
The 7xxx are very immature atm and i doubt anyone here wants those issues with drivers.
The 560Ti is a much better option at it's current price.

As mentioned above, you also get the Nvidia goodies with the card.
And yes physX and the rest make a difference.

I haven't had any issues with drivers, this isn't the year 2000 anymore. Even with my asus 7850 at 1250/1600 1.2v im rock stable but I am on a fresh install on win7
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May 2, 2012 1:01:27 PM

So looking a bit more at overclocks, it seems like the 560Ti has reached 22% maximum on the Gigabyte card (probably the one I'm going to get, as opposed to the MSI): http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-560-ti-...

However, the 7850 has reached much higher overclocks. Also, I've heard that physX is like this: "if you don’t have it you wont miss it". Graphics aren't incredibly important to me--framerate and longevity is. Meaning, I'm buying a card that can max out 1080p (more or less) NOW so that it can play medium or lower in a few years. PhysX in that element isn't that important. Also, as it seems that AMD users aren't having very many issues with the 7850 drivers (WoW is still buggy, from what I've heard, but I don't play that).
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a c 92 U Graphics card
May 2, 2012 1:53:07 PM

the 7850 draws a lot less power and will probably run much cooler than the 560ti. It should be easily hit 30%+ OC. I would say its definately worth it over the 560 ti at those prices.
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May 2, 2012 3:08:01 PM

17seconds said:
According to those charts an overclocked GTX 560 Ti runs faster than a GTX 570 and a 6970, which would make it a pretty competitive option against a significantly more expensive 7850. Don't forget, with the 560 you also get the bundle: PhysX, Adaptive VSync, FXAA, TXAA, and Geforce Experience.


yes, but the OC'd 7850 beats a 580 and creeps up on a 7950 in some benchmarks and games.

ddan49 said:
So looking a bit more at overclocks, it seems like the 560Ti has reached 22% maximum on the Gigabyte card (probably the one I'm going to get, as opposed to the MSI): http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-560-ti-...

However, the 7850 has reached much higher overclocks. Also, I've heard that physX is like this: "if you don’t have it you wont miss it". Graphics aren't incredibly important to me--framerate and longevity is. Meaning, I'm buying a card that can max out 1080p (more or less) NOW so that it can play medium or lower in a few years. PhysX in that element isn't that important. Also, as it seems that AMD users aren't having very many issues with the 7850 drivers (WoW is still buggy, from what I've heard, but I don't play that).


i don't even know what physX is lol. so i think it's fair to say i don't miss it. yeah 23% OC on the 560 ti is what i read, but the 7850 will go 40%+. also the 7850 is obviously better stock, so a 40% OC 7850 vs. a 23% 560 ti puts the 7850 at least 20% above the capabilities of the 560 ti if you compare each fully unlocked.

plus if i were getting nvidia, i'd totally be waiting for the 670 and spend another $100...
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a c 592 U Graphics card
May 2, 2012 5:37:09 PM

tuffluck said:
yes, but the OC'd 7850 beats a 580 and creeps up on a 7950 in some benchmarks and games.

Too bad there are charts on this very page contradicting that statement.

If anyone wants to know about PhysX, there are reviews and videos everywhere on the web. Here's a good page on Batman: Arkham City with a video showing PhysX on and off.
http://www.hitechlegion.com/reviews/gaming-software/147...
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a c 92 U Graphics card
May 2, 2012 6:03:24 PM

physx is mostly useless and enabling it would make batmain unplayable with a single 560ti.
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a c 291 U Graphics card
May 2, 2012 6:10:56 PM

esrever said:
physx is mostly useless and enabling it would make batmain unplayable with a single 560ti.


And I'm batman :lol: 
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May 2, 2012 6:46:57 PM

I know about physX being a big difference in Batman (well.. big enough). But Batman was released as an Nvidia game, anyway (unofficially). I'm looking at games like BF3 and CoD, and the physX in those games isn't enough to make me go to Nvidia BECAUSE of that. It is a factor, though.

Matto, there are charts comparing the stock 560 Ti and 7850... also, I think those charts are from when the 7850 was just released. Drivers have probably made a difference (though probably small) in performance since then. That's why I wanted to know about OC potential...if the 560 Ti can OC much more (and this isn't true) than the 7850, that means it might actually beat (or come VERY close) to 7850 performance. The thing is that it OCs worse, so that means that at OCed settings,the 7850 would broaden the gap in between the two.

I'm really leaning to the 7850. After looking at OC performance, I'm very optimistic about the 7850's performance. Cooling and noise are important 'cause of the Fractal R3 case (no side fan, and I'm obviously going for a quiet system).
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May 2, 2012 7:29:23 PM

17seconds said:
Too bad there are charts on this very page contradicting that statement.


where are you referring to, the stock speeds posted above?

FYI on 3dmark11 i got a 5,200 on my non-OC'd system (i5-2500k stock speeds, + turbo boost) and 7850 factory OC ~5% sapphire edition, which is just a little more than what TH's guide got with the reference card.

OC'd 40% and i got a 6,591, still no OC on the CPU 2500k. the 580 scores 6,240 and the 7950 scores 6,440. so the 7850 OC'd is faster than both on that benchmark.

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/2012-vga-gpgpu/01-3D...

so i dunno, maybe benchmarks on TH lie, but below are my results anyway.

http://3dmark.com/3dm11/3313602
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a c 291 U Graphics card
May 2, 2012 8:14:49 PM

And my highly overclocked GTX 560 Ti scored P5644 on 3d mark 11. It's roughly the same performance per money, 25% price for 25% performance increase.
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May 2, 2012 9:52:59 PM

Okay. But my question is how this actually impacts performance. I think I'll go with the 7850 PURELY because of the OC potential while keeping cool and quiet. It DOES cost more (like $60), but I think that the extra 20%ish of OC headroom is a good buy.

Now... any info on good manufacturers? MSI Twin Frozr II OC is out of stock everywhere (it would be my first choice :(  ), so I think I'll be going with the ASUS. Sure, the heatsink hangs out like 2cm over the edge, but I've got enough room, and it seems to be cool and quiet. The Gigabyte has had complaints with the fan being loud and vibration being an issue. Sapphire? I mean, the Sapphires are usually pretty expensive. What would you guys suggest? I like ASUS... but I'm open to other suggestions (2 fans or more, please, since I need good cooling that stays quiet).
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a c 91 U Graphics card
May 2, 2012 10:04:17 PM

ddan49 said:
Okay. But my question is how this actually impacts performance. I think I'll go with the 7850 PURELY because of the OC potential while keeping cool and quiet. It DOES cost more (like $60), but I think that the extra 20%ish of OC headroom is a good buy.

Now... any info on good manufacturers? MSI Twin Frozr II OC is out of stock everywhere (it would be my first choice :(  ), so I think I'll be going with the ASUS. Sure, the heatsink hangs out like 2cm over the edge, but I've got enough room, and it seems to be cool and quiet. The Gigabyte has had complaints with the fan being loud and vibration being an issue. Sapphire? I mean, the Sapphires are usually pretty expensive. What would you guys suggest? I like ASUS... but I'm open to other suggestions (2 fans or more, please, since I need good cooling that stays quiet).

running a sapphire 7970 in my case... got it mainly for the complete bundle (which for the 7850 is diminished, but not non-existent). I believe the fans they use for the 7850 are exactly the same as for my 7970, in which case I can tell you they run very quiet and keep things cool (while blowing a whole lot of hot air into the case so make sure you have good air flow!)

As for ASUS, I like them to, solid products... I just hate the size
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May 2, 2012 10:40:09 PM

The size isn't a problem as long as it fits in the case, right?
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a c 91 U Graphics card
May 3, 2012 12:57:04 AM

ddan49 said:
The size isn't a problem as long as it fits in the case, right?


nope, no problem at all unless you plan on crossfiring in the future as an upgrade route
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May 3, 2012 1:01:38 AM

If you want your money's worth:

I am selling two 6870s for $230 together.

one BE XFX 6870: $105 with shipping.
one DD XFX 6870: $140 with shipping.
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May 3, 2012 1:38:00 AM

I have to agree. I'm always looking for a deal, but computer components are one thing I'm willing to spend extra on just to make sure I can return, RMA, and get quality components.

Also, I'm not interested in two 6870s. Sorry.
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June 27, 2012 9:32:56 PM

Quote:
The 7xxx are very immature atm and i doubt anyone here wants those issues with drivers.
The 560Ti is a much better option at it's current price.

As mentioned above, you also get the Nvidia goodies with the card.
And yes physX and the rest make a difference.


Truth, drivers for 7xxx are garbage starcraft 2 and oblivion get hung out and crash like its going out of style. I returned my 7850 today for a 560ti because all my games crashed.

I've always had AMD/ATI GPU's until now cards are very good until they hit the wall so the question is do you wanna go 500 mph and hit a wall or 450 mph and actually be able to play your games?
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July 4, 2012 9:21:17 PM

Well... keep in mind that drivers do get better. Eventually...
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a c 91 U Graphics card
July 5, 2012 4:32:27 AM

ddan49 said:
Well... keep in mind that drivers do get better. Eventually...


they already are better, especially with 12.6 and 12.7 beta...

also, the biggest difference between the cards is really the 1GB vs 2GB of memory, and there are few games in the current market that let's the 7850's 2GB of memory shine (especially at your resolution).

but do note the relatively large difference between the two cards in the skyrim benchmarks. in my opinion, that's the type of difference you'll see a year or two from now. we're moving toward 2GB of GPU memory as the norm
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July 5, 2012 3:30:27 PM

Yeah. This thread is from a WHILE ago... I just realized that. I really wish the 660Ti could've come out like... now (after 680, 690, and 670 have all been released... which they have). I'd MUCH rather go Nvidia for the GPU, but it seems that I won't be able to (I'm buying my parts in about a week... I wasn't able to build the desktop before this). 7850 it is! (Also, the OCs on that thing are gorgeous).

Also, about the 2GB... I'm trying to get as much longevity as possible, so the 2GB is definitely a boon (although not a deciding factor).
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a c 91 U Graphics card
July 5, 2012 3:55:12 PM

2GB is most definitely a boon. everything else aside, the trend in gaming has always been increased need for memory space. I can see a 560ti being limited by it's memory, and not it's raw processing power, in the coming years
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July 5, 2012 10:44:51 PM

Now if only Nvidia could lower the 670 to $300... $350 and I'd be satisfied, really.
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July 5, 2012 10:58:19 PM

Best answer selected by ddan49.
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