AMD CPU speculation... and expert conjecture - Page 2
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sarinaide said:
1] there are trinity updates for 2013 so its not entirely without revision2] if the goal is to allow better technology to be available to you then hold out for it, from what I last read AMD has 1 more year with the now defective GLOFO, after that they can move away, why put SR on strained GF SoC when the possiblity of TSMC after 2013 may be a realistic possiblity, this bodes better as TSMC have a better process than GF and of course Radeon GPU's will be on the same process, possibly both on 22nm which again is much better than what AMD have with GF.
3] Why the rush, certainly better time and endeavor spent on R&D is more valuable to AMD right now than just releasing for the sake of it. Jaguar and Richland for 2013 to re-evaluate the APU platforms, Trinity 2.0 should be aptly suited to deal with the efforts of HD5000
Sure, but those updates are rather minor compared to the iGPU update for Steamy that AMD originally had slated for a year from now.
As for GF vs. TSMC, it's nice for AMD to have choices. But TSMC also uses strained silicon and not SOI at 28nm. AFAIK AMD was the only CPU/GPU customer anywhere that required SOI - the promised savings by spreading out the capex costs over multiple customers never did materialize; hence AMD switching to strained silicon.
At least one financial analyst agrees with AMD's delaying Steamy and concentrating on the ultra-mobile end: http://seekingalpha.com/article/982931-amd-leaked-roadm...
Quote:
AMD's 2013 roadmap is sensible. On the mid to high end side, we see a logical evolution of the current product line. At the right prices and with the right OEM deals, AMD should be able to position themselves quite well. The exciting stuff happens with the brand new "essential" APU with the "Jaguar" cores in the "Kabini" APU. These cheap chips - coupled with "good enough" performance - could be just what AMD needs to move into newer, low power segments as well as take advantage of the budget ultra-thin notebook category that is likely to spring up.AMD isn't dead yet, and it doesn't need to "beat" Intel to remain viable - it just needs to pick and choose battles that it can reasonably win. It seems that on the PC client side at least, AMD is making the right moves. Execution and delivery will be key here, which have traditionally been AMD's weak points.
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Reply to fazers_on_stun
viridiancrystal
November 6, 2012 9:22:28 PM
If steamy is released late 2014, it better be the new wheel. Broadwell is scheduled to be out then. Half the transistor size, tri-gates, most likely better process. Assuming Intel can pull 15% for Haswell and 10% for Broadwell (cpu per/watt). Jumps in gpu performance will no doubt be notable. AMD is going to be in two worlds of hurt, considering they are already in one.
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Reply to viridiancrystal
Chad Boga
November 6, 2012 10:05:26 PM
noob2222 said:
I have stated several times some possible solutions, but you seem to just want to ignore all of them. Even my initial statement was based on Ivy bridge release data, well before we had any clue what haswell was about.So you jumped the gun with your wild prognostications, who would have thunk it.
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the only wishful thinking around here is you wishing everyone that doesn't worship Intel is a complete moron.I'm simply of the belief that people who make outrageous statements on scant evidence and obviously no understanding of the history of CPU manufacturing processes, be challenged on those crazy statements.
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Imagine the horror of amd's 125W cpu on 14nm.Why does it have to be a 125W cpu? Intel went from 130W to 95W to 77W, no reason to suspect that AMD can't lower their TDP of future CPU's.
And AMD's biggest challenge for 14nm is more likely to be an economic one, than technical one.
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Reply to Chad Boga
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fazers_on_stun said:
Sure, but those updates are rather minor compared to the iGPU update for Steamy that AMD originally had slated for a year from now.As for GF vs. TSMC, it's nice for AMD to have choices. But TSMC also uses strained silicon and not SOI at 28nm. AFAIK AMD was the only CPU/GPU customer anywhere that required SOI - the promised savings by spreading out the capex costs over multiple customers never did materialize; hence AMD switching to strained silicon.
At least one financial analyst agrees with AMD's delaying Steamy and concentrating on the ultra-mobile end: http://seekingalpha.com/article/982931-amd-leaked-roadm...
Quote:
AMD's 2013 roadmap is sensible. On the mid to high end side, we see a logical evolution of the current product line. At the right prices and with the right OEM deals, AMD should be able to position themselves quite well. The exciting stuff happens with the brand new "essential" APU with the "Jaguar" cores in the "Kabini" APU. These cheap chips - coupled with "good enough" performance - could be just what AMD needs to move into newer, low power segments as well as take advantage of the budget ultra-thin notebook category that is likely to spring up.AMD isn't dead yet, and it doesn't need to "beat" Intel to remain viable - it just needs to pick and choose battles that it can reasonably win. It seems that on the PC client side at least, AMD is making the right moves. Execution and delivery will be key here, which have traditionally been AMD's weak points.
I know the general feeling is "aaah another delay" but I don't really think it is all that bad news for a number of reasons;
1] Richland and Jaguar will release in 2013, Richland will have a dieshrink along with a far more robust unconfirmed but HD8000 iGPU component, not only is it on a much smaller die than VLIW parts but considerably less power for more functional parts, still expected to maintain the 100w TPD for the highest end but lower load power consumption so in a way it is a release.
2] future technologies available to AMD in 2014 makes Kaveri far more attractive for 2014, considering trinity is rarely under threat for iGPU performance.
Hearsay, rumours, speculation on Steamroller;
- Dieshrink to 22nm process
- Unified socket
- Steamroller architecture, focus on lowering icache misses, misspredicts, tightening latencies and yielding sizable IPC gains over Piledriver.
- DDR4 support
- Dedicated memory channels for iGPU with significant improvements to bandwidth.
- Future Radeon cores, also on a significantly reduced die space.
- L3 Cache
- Greater parallelism, guess that has to do with a lot of work in the next 16 odd months with HSA partners, Microsoft expected to be one of them.
It looks more and more like the better decision to release Steamroller when the pieces position themselves a lot better, Richland and Jaguar should offer impressive midpoint varients so its not like the processor line is dry, what will Richland deliver GCN technology, Zero Core 2.0, more GPGPU Compute, more performance on lower power, improved bandwidth, think Trinity 2.0 should have quantifiable gains of Trinity, if I was to guess a number 20-25% iGPU performance gains, far more effiecient architecture than VLIW4, even that may be less considering it was more like 35% with trinity over llano on the same VLIW architectures.
I haven't seen any further slides on FX going forward, I guess this lends to speculation that FX will be unified, I assume that means AMD will be using dual and quad core variants and the Moar Coars ideology seems to be dead, not that it was really bearing fruits anyways.
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Reply to sarinaide
Actually, just because of DDR4 if makes sense to push it a whole year. If DDR4 is not (won't be) ready for when they start pushing samples, they won't squeeze more out of the iGPU; or the whole platform for that matter.
Steamroller was going to be the first with the GPU "fused" into the CPU, right? I'm kind of confused with the "new" roadmap now.
Cheers!
Steamroller was going to be the first with the GPU "fused" into the CPU, right? I'm kind of confused with the "new" roadmap now.
Cheers!
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Reply to Yuka
sarinaide said:
I know the general feeling is "aaah another delay" but I don't really think it is all that bad news for a number of reasons;1] Richland and Jaguar will release in 2013, Richland will have a dieshrink along with a far more robust unconfirmed but HD8000 iGPU component, not only is it on a much smaller die than VLIW parts but considerably less power for more functional parts, still expected to maintain the 100w TPD for the highest end but lower load power consumption so in a way it is a release.
2] future technologies available to AMD in 2014 makes Kaveri far more attractive for 2014, considering trinity is rarely under threat for iGPU performance.
Hearsay, rumours, speculation on Steamroller;
- Dieshrink to 22nm process
- Unified socket
- Steamroller architecture, focus on lowering icache misses, misspredicts, tightening latencies and yielding sizable IPC gains over Piledriver.
- DDR4 support
- Dedicated memory channels for iGPU with significant improvements to bandwidth.
- Future Radeon cores, also on a significantly reduced die space.
- L3 Cache
- Greater parallelism, guess that has to do with a lot of work in the next 16 odd months with HSA partners, Microsoft expected to be one of them.
It looks more and more like the better decision to release Steamroller when the pieces position themselves a lot better, Richland and Jaguar should offer impressive midpoint varients so its not like the processor line is dry, what will Richland deliver GCN technology, Zero Core 2.0, more GPGPU Compute, more performance on lower power, improved bandwidth, think Trinity 2.0 should have quantifiable gains of Trinity, if I was to guess a number 20-25% iGPU performance gains, far more effiecient architecture than VLIW4, even that may be less considering it was more like 35% with trinity over llano on the same VLIW architectures.
I haven't seen any further slides on FX going forward, I guess this lends to speculation that FX will be unified, I assume that means AMD will be using dual and quad core variants and the Moar Coars ideology seems to be dead, not that it was really bearing fruits anyways.
Sounds eerily like BD. A new michroarchitecture and process shrink with powerful features and performance targets. Gets delayed and delayed and delayed, and by the time it is released, none of these features aren't new anymore compared to what Intel is offering. Hope this doesn't happen again
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Reply to Blandge
sarinaide said:
I know the general feeling is "aaah another delay" but I don't really think it is all that bad news for a number of reasons;1] Richland and Jaguar will release in 2013, Richland will have a dieshrink along with a far more robust unconfirmed but HD8000 iGPU component, not only is it on a much smaller die than VLIW parts but considerably less power for more functional parts, still expected to maintain the 100w TPD for the highest end but lower load power consumption so in a way it is a release.
2] future technologies available to AMD in 2014 makes Kaveri far more attractive for 2014, considering trinity is rarely under threat for iGPU performance.
It looks more and more like the better decision to release Steamroller when the pieces position themselves a lot better, Richland and Jaguar should offer impressive midpoint varients so its not like the processor line is dry, what will Richland deliver GCN technology, Zero Core 2.0, more GPGPU Compute, more performance on lower power, improved bandwidth, think Trinity 2.0 should have quantifiable gains of Trinity, if I was to guess a number 20-25% iGPU performance gains, far more effiecient architecture than VLIW4, even that may be less considering it was more like 35% with trinity over llano on the same VLIW architectures.
Well IMO it's never a good thing to delay a product since the company earns zero income return on the R&D expenses already incurred during the delay.
To repeat from the earlier article: "Execution and delivery will be key here, which have traditionally been AMD's weak points." So if the roadmap rumor is true, AMD again failed to execute and deliver on time another product - Barcelona, Bulldozer and now Steamroller..
The other question is whether AMD can support 9000+ employees on GPUs and lower ASP & margin parts. I'm thinking we'll see another round of layoffs no later than this time next year, if not before. Hopefully their SeaMicro cloud server parts will pay off, as they should earn a pretty good profit on those.
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Reply to fazers_on_stun
fazers_on_stun said:
Well IMO it's never a good thing to delay a product since the company earns zero income return on the R&D expenses already incurred during the delay. To repeat from the earlier article: "Execution and delivery will be key here, which have traditionally been AMD's weak points." So if the roadmap rumor is true, AMD again failed to execute and deliver on time another product - Barcelona, Bulldozer and now Steamroller..
The other question is whether AMD can support 9000+ employees on GPUs and lower ASP & margin parts. I'm thinking we'll see another round of layoffs no later than this time next year, if not before. Hopefully their SeaMicro cloud server parts will pay off, as they should earn a pretty good profit on those.
Their stock wont stop falling, if steamroller is delayed(most likely is) Amd will have to fight another year with inferior products in the server bracket. Kinda want to see them fail(why should we care much when they don't give a crap about their consumers) but then again i don't want to see Intel only make CPU's.
Just wish they would get a real CEO.
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Reply to jdwii
blackkstar
November 8, 2012 2:24:28 AM
You guys are giving Intel too much credit with Ivy Bridge. The IPC didn't change at all, only thing different is turbo works better: http://www.sisoftware.net/?d=qa&f=cpu_ivb
On top of that, Nehalem vs Sandy Bridge was only about a 15% increase in IPC, and it seemed to hover between 10% and 20%.
I don't expect any IPC improvement from Broadwell. I expect a better working turbo maybe and perhaps more cores thrown at desktop CPUs if they exist, but that's it. Intel has been slowing down immensely.
The difference between P4 and Core 2 Duo was massive, Core 2 Duo to Core i7 Nehalem smaller, Core i7 Nehalem to Sandy Bridge, even smaller, and Sandy Bridge to Ivy Bridge is just a better working turbo. P4 to Core 2 Duo was abandoning Netburst which needed to happen, Core 2 Duo to Nehalem was just putting IMC on die.
The fact that everyone thinks Intel is absolutely destroying with their architecture is absurd. I wouldn't be surprised if Haswell had between 5% and 15% better IPC tops.
On top of that, Nehalem vs Sandy Bridge was only about a 15% increase in IPC, and it seemed to hover between 10% and 20%.
I don't expect any IPC improvement from Broadwell. I expect a better working turbo maybe and perhaps more cores thrown at desktop CPUs if they exist, but that's it. Intel has been slowing down immensely.
The difference between P4 and Core 2 Duo was massive, Core 2 Duo to Core i7 Nehalem smaller, Core i7 Nehalem to Sandy Bridge, even smaller, and Sandy Bridge to Ivy Bridge is just a better working turbo. P4 to Core 2 Duo was abandoning Netburst which needed to happen, Core 2 Duo to Nehalem was just putting IMC on die.
The fact that everyone thinks Intel is absolutely destroying with their architecture is absurd. I wouldn't be surprised if Haswell had between 5% and 15% better IPC tops.
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Reply to blackkstar
Richland is still expected to have improvements to Piledriver cores along with some tinkering to the IMC, but the more notable one is that it is still expected to feature a new SeaIslands GCN part using much lower wattage. Since we know that AMD is not as religious on massive power drops they will probably see this as the opportunity to throw more transistors into the APU delivering more performance in the same TPD window. I still believe Trinity and Jaguar will be very impressive products but I still can't help but feel a bit disappointed that I have to wait for Q3 2014 to see the next evolutionary AMD product.
As above I think it is the more logical decision with technologies only available in 2014, then the FABS issues etc, it just feels really odd the manner in how this is broken. Anyways of another not sure slides of this will appear on OBR soon enough but looks like FX is scrapped or never intended after Vishera lending more croutons for the soup of thought that AMD are unifying the processors into higher performance APU's.
As above I think it is the more logical decision with technologies only available in 2014, then the FABS issues etc, it just feels really odd the manner in how this is broken. Anyways of another not sure slides of this will appear on OBR soon enough but looks like FX is scrapped or never intended after Vishera lending more croutons for the soup of thought that AMD are unifying the processors into higher performance APU's.
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Reply to sarinaide
You think I should Buy a FX-8350 or wait for the Steamroller? You think I can get away with using my 970 board? I'm so confused with all this stuff... They're canceling AM3+... They're not canceling AM3+, Vishera was only supposed to fit the 990FX boards... FM2 is the new highend soccet... IDK. Can anyone give me something more concrete?
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Reply to griptwister
It was said not after Zambezi came out that AMD wanted to unify sockets by Steamroller, after much confusion caused from rumour, speculation, AMD slides it was believed not that long ago that AM3+ and FM2 were going to be carried over, that said I now doubt this very much;
1] 990/SB950 will be nearly 3 years by Q3 2014 and well behind the technologies available with very little room to improve so, for this AM3+ and Vishera is the last pure AMD CPU.
2] Richland appears to be the final Trinity part available on FM2.
3] Lots of speculation suggests Kaveri will employ dual and single module varients featuring L3 cache, some suggest on die memory, though pretty much most of the speculation tends towards DDR4 support of which the FM2 chipset does not support, Also dedicated DIMM slots toward the iGPU along with unified CPU/iGPU IMC.
To me it looks like a unified possibly a FM3 socket for Steamroller and possibly Excavator after that.
1] 990/SB950 will be nearly 3 years by Q3 2014 and well behind the technologies available with very little room to improve so, for this AM3+ and Vishera is the last pure AMD CPU.
2] Richland appears to be the final Trinity part available on FM2.
3] Lots of speculation suggests Kaveri will employ dual and single module varients featuring L3 cache, some suggest on die memory, though pretty much most of the speculation tends towards DDR4 support of which the FM2 chipset does not support, Also dedicated DIMM slots toward the iGPU along with unified CPU/iGPU IMC.
To me it looks like a unified possibly a FM3 socket for Steamroller and possibly Excavator after that.
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Reply to sarinaide
sarinaide said:
It was said not after Zambezi came out that AMD wanted to unify sockets by Steamroller, after much confusion caused from rumour, speculation, AMD slides it was believed not that long ago that AM3+ and FM2 were going to be carried over, that said I now doubt this very much;1] 990/SB950 will be nearly 3 years by Q3 2014 and well behind the technologies available with very little room to improve so, for this AM3+ and Vishera is the last pure AMD CPU.
2] Richland appears to be the final Trinity part available on FM2.
3] Lots of speculation suggests Kaveri will employ dual and single module varients featuring L3 cache, some suggest on die memory, though pretty much most of the speculation tends towards DDR4 support of which the FM2 chipset does not support, Also dedicated DIMM slots toward the iGPU along with unified CPU/iGPU IMC.
To me it looks like a unified possibly a FM3 socket for Steamroller and possibly Excavator after that.
Why would they do that makes no since they still make money on the fx parts in the go pure APU they probably will go out of business whats next getting rid of their GPU sector to just focus on APU's
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Reply to jdwii
jdwii said:
Why would they do that makes no since they still make money on the fx parts in the go pure APU they probably will go out of business whats next getting rid of their GPU sector to just focus on APU's
Think about it, FX is a game that AMD don't play anymore ever since the "FUTURE IS FUSION" policy was adopted, FX doesn't fit the bill since it is not fitted for HSA workloads, not only that but FM2 APU's closed the gap to top FX parts, FX has no future and you basically get the impression AMD are disinterested in it hence whey ES samples of PD to retail showed absolutely skint nothing in improvements considering the ES's were out in February.
I would not look at a Kaveri as a lil APU, consider the features I have absolutely no doubts it will embarass the best FX processors today, the catch is they are already talking around $200 for the top end Kaveri APU's, so as they become more high end so does the costs incur.
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Reply to sarinaide
mayankleoboy1
November 8, 2012 10:36:00 AM
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Reply to mayankleoboy1
jdwii said:
Their stock wont stop falling, if steamroller is delayed(most likely is) Amd will have to fight another year with inferior products in the server bracket. Kinda want to see them fail(why should we care much when they don't give a crap about their consumers) but then again i don't want to see Intel only make CPU's. Just wish they would get a real CEO.
All stocks fell yesterday, due to Obama's re-election plus the EU ongoing crisis. If Obama and the Republicans can't reach agreement to stave off the sequester going into effect Jan. 1st, you will see the USA going into recession #2 and dragging the world economy down with it..
If Read can successfully transition AMD to an ARM + x86 competitor, then history will smile upon him
. Otherwise he'll be another Ruiz, maybe the last one.. -
Reply to fazers_on_stun
bawchicawawa
November 8, 2012 11:42:25 AM
blackkstar said:
You guys are giving Intel too much credit with Ivy Bridge. The IPC didn't change at all, only thing different is turbo works better: http://www.sisoftware.net/?d=qa&f=cpu_ivbOn top of that, Nehalem vs Sandy Bridge was only about a 15% increase in IPC, and it seemed to hover between 10% and 20%.
I don't expect any IPC improvement from Broadwell. I expect a better working turbo maybe and perhaps more cores thrown at desktop CPUs if they exist, but that's it. Intel has been slowing down immensely.
The difference between P4 and Core 2 Duo was massive, Core 2 Duo to Core i7 Nehalem smaller, Core i7 Nehalem to Sandy Bridge, even smaller, and Sandy Bridge to Ivy Bridge is just a better working turbo. P4 to Core 2 Duo was abandoning Netburst which needed to happen, Core 2 Duo to Nehalem was just putting IMC on die.
The fact that everyone thinks Intel is absolutely destroying with their architecture is absurd. I wouldn't be surprised if Haswell had between 5% and 15% better IPC tops.
Think the DT CPUs show around 5% IPC gain from Sandy to Ivy, which is not bad considering Ivy is mostly a die shrink tick with few architectural improvements in the CPU, but a lot of changes in the GPU.
Yeah, most people expect Haswell (tock of Ivy) to show around 10% IPC gains..
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Reply to fazers_on_stun
amd going into arm now is risky imo. they need to have their own customized arm cpu core instead of using the vanilla design. besides, coming up with a decent arm based apu could easily take a couple of years or even more - if they customize it for possible improvement. by that time competitors like qualcomm and samsung will have even more mature chips let alone nvidia. this (arm venture) could end up being a losing game for amd if they don't do it right - launch a product based on ref. arm core and unpolished(for use with arm) radeon gpu and be outdone by the competitors or take time to build something well-performing while existing chips advance further ahead.
i mostly agree with a previous observation - this looks a lot like bulldozer-redux (or reflux), amd improving on previous underwhelming product and hit delay before moving to a smaller fabrication process.
i mostly agree with a previous observation - this looks a lot like bulldozer-redux (or reflux), amd improving on previous underwhelming product and hit delay before moving to a smaller fabrication process.
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Reply to de5_Roy
sarinaide said:
I see even S/A were confussed, listing Richland initially as Kaveri and then proceded to write a ill informed article recently.Richland and Kabini still technically PD, can we re-open the PD thread
? Richland should deliver a fair performance increase over Trinity.really? the kabini(jaguar) diagrams that i saw matches neither steamroller nor piledriver.
http://semiaccurate.com/2012/08/28/amd-let-the-new-cat-...
i don't have in-depth knowledge on these cpu architectures though...
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Reply to de5_Roy
It was part of the Piledriver family slides once upon a time, but AMD slides change like a power point presentation so I may be wrong. If the Piledriver thread lasted 150 odd pages, I will hate to see how long Steamy's speculation thread is going to be, it looks cast in stone that the soonest Steamroller part will roll out in the second half of 2014.
I think the early assesment will be;
1] Unlikely to beat intel in x86 but will it be within say 5-10% window.
2] How far can AMD revolutionize iGPU performance.
It could be a very exciting thread as more comes out, right now the post Vishera hype will settle down. I think the difference here is most knew what Vishera was going to offer, Steamroller is the unknown quantity.
I think the early assesment will be;
1] Unlikely to beat intel in x86 but will it be within say 5-10% window.
2] How far can AMD revolutionize iGPU performance.
It could be a very exciting thread as more comes out, right now the post Vishera hype will settle down. I think the difference here is most knew what Vishera was going to offer, Steamroller is the unknown quantity.
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Reply to sarinaide
sarinaide said:
It was part of the Piledriver family slides once upon a time, but AMD slides change like a power point presentation so I may be wrong. Yep - AMD changes roadmaps more often than their underpants
Quote:
If the Piledriver thread lasted 150 odd pages, I will hate to see how long Steamy's speculation thread is going to be, it looks cast in stone that the soonest Steamroller part will roll out in the second half of 2014.Well if we wander off-topic like this, my bet is 200 pages easy!
. And note that lately my predictions have been on a winning streak! Not to toot my own horn too much..
Quote:
I think the early assesment will be;1] Unlikely to beat intel in x86 but will it be within say 5-10% window.
2] How far can AMD revolutionize iGPU performance.
It could be a very exciting thread as more comes out, right now the post Vishera hype will settle down. I think the difference here is most knew what Vishera was going to offer, Steamroller is the unknown quantity.
My bet is that it'll come close to Ivy, but won't beat Haswell in CPU. If still 28nm and not 20nm in 2H 2014, I'd also bet any iGPU improvements might only amount to 30% or less, depending on how big a die and TDP AMD is willing to go with.
If Intel had been willing to make Ivy an actual 95W TDP CPU, instead of 77W, I'd bet that the HD4K would have matched or beaten Trinity's as they could have stuck 24 or maybe even 32 EU's on it..
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Reply to fazers_on_stun
richardgal
November 8, 2012 6:05:51 PM
richardgal said:
It will come out as another complete failure if they don't change platform. You can't build a castle from a pile(driver) of ***. (ba dum tss!)But seriously, if they keep on messing around with the FX arch, they might aswell just "line up on the rooftop and commit seppuku."
Those are mighty strong words coming from a guy who's signature build consists on an i3
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Reply to griptwister
fazers_on_stun said:
My bet is that it'll come close to Ivy, but won't beat Haswell in CPU. If still 28nm and not 20nm in 2H 2014, I'd also bet any iGPU improvements might only amount to 30% or less, depending on how big a die and TDP AMD is willing to go with.If Intel had been willing to make Ivy an actual 95W TDP CPU, instead of 77W, I'd bet that the HD4K would have matched or beaten Trinity's as they could have stuck 24 or maybe even 32 EU's on it..
As to x86, most AMD fans would be really delighted if it matched SB/IB in IPC and general x86 performance so I would take that happily.
On the iGPU debates, don't think Intel releasing HD4K would have actually know what Trinity had to offer, the focus was closing up to top Llano parts which they still linger behind, in some aspects HD4K is relatively close to Trinity, but in most important aspects HD4k is around 3-4x slower, not that this is disappointing but one must bear in mind that AMD are accused of lowballing with what is regarded as extremely low end and inefficient VLIW parts, with no reason to be there.
Trinity vs Llano brought general 35% improvements to the iGPU on a aging VLIW architecture which is neither efficient in power or performance. Richland is still believed to go ahead with all the slated changes just minus Steamroller cores, so that will see AMD attempting to more than double the bandwidth and improve performance in the same TPD window. The changer here is GCN, as revolutionary as SB was to x86, take my long favorite HD6970 compared to its replacement HD7970 and the performance differential is almost 3x and uses a lot less power. If Richland is correct it will use a HD8660D on the highest end part, with the HD8750 said to be 15% faster than the HD7770 and use 45% less power, a HD8660D will be a watered down version of that. I did say Richland would at least bring 25% gains on iGPU performance over Trinity, but that could very well be significantly higher, knowing AMD's experience in GPU technology this is very possible and will likely see it dominate for some time yet. I initially heard somewhere around 700-900 radeon stream processors on the highest end D part, though its been said to cap out around 720 stream processors, which is double 7660D at half the power, factor in unifying the IMC between and other tweeks to bandwidth, it is very possible that this could bridge to mainstream quite efficiently. Right now other changes to the iGPU/Memory interface is unknown but I doubt it would be any less pertinent to AMD to improve this considering it is the bread and butter.
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Reply to sarinaide
amdfangirl said:
Pretty sure Bobcat was OOO.Yep, that's my point. AMD has no other OOO design AFAIK.
sarinaide said:
As to x86, most AMD fans would be really delighted if it matched SB/IB in IPC and general x86 performance so I would take that happily.On the iGPU debates, don't think Intel releasing HD4K would have actually know what Trinity had to offer, the focus was closing up to top Llano parts which they still linger behind, in some aspects HD4K is relatively close to Trinity, but in most important aspects HD4k is around 3-4x slower, not that this is disappointing but one must bear in mind that AMD are accused of lowballing with what is regarded as extremely low end and inefficient VLIW parts, with no reason to be there.
Trinity vs Llano brought general 35% improvements to the iGPU on a aging VLIW architecture which is neither efficient in power or performance. Richland is still believed to go ahead with all the slated changes just minus Steamroller cores, so that will see AMD attempting to more than double the bandwidth and improve performance in the same TPD window. The changer here is GCN, as revolutionary as SB was to x86, take my long favorite HD6970 compared to its replacement HD7970 and the performance differential is almost 3x and uses a lot less power. If Richland is correct it will use a HD8660D on the highest end part, with the HD8750 said to be 15% faster than the HD7770 and use 45% less power, a HD8660D will be a watered down version of that. I did say Richland would at least bring 25% gains on iGPU performance over Trinity, but that could very well be significantly higher, knowing AMD's experience in GPU technology this is very possible and will likely see it dominate for some time yet. I initially heard somewhere around 700-900 radeon stream processors on the highest end D part, though its been said to cap out around 720 stream processors, which is double 7660D at half the power, factor in unifying the IMC between and other tweeks to bandwidth, it is very possible that this could bridge to mainstream quite efficiently. Right now other changes to the iGPU/Memory interface is unknown but I doubt it would be any less pertinent to AMD to improve this considering it is the bread and butter.
Like palladin said way way back, it's not about hardware on Intel's side. It's software. Since they have the process advantage, they can pretty much slap all the things they want to their designs (exaggeration, but you know what I mean, haha). They have to work out the issues with the support and driver's performance gradually; they can't produce a massive iGPU part without proper understanding and scaling in the development of the companion software.
Quote:
Final derailment: CBO predicts a 9.1% unemployment rate if fiscal cliff occurs. Deficit would be cut in half though.Don't worry, FOXCONN said they'll put a plant in the States. I'm sure they'll solve everything with child labor (?)
Cheers! xP
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Reply to Yuka
Yuka said:
Like palladin said way way back, it's not about hardware on Intel's side. It's software. Since they have the process advantage, they can pretty much slap all the things they want to their designs (exaggeration, but you know what I mean, haha). They have to work out the issues with the support and driver's performance gradually; they can't produce a massive iGPU part without proper understanding and scaling in the development of the companion software.
Cheers! xP
I did raise this issue before, software developers don't have any interest in intel iGPU support, looking at my games boxes the "This game may not support intel integrated graphics solutions please consult blah blah blah". 40EU's, 9 Billion EU's, the issue is one company knows how to produce the hardware and software/firmware to support it, Intel don't have that luxury and I am sure as day Nvidia and AMD will not let them get the IP's to them. AMD Vision opperates of Catalyst drivers so driver support is not an issue. I can see AMD vision escalating quite a lot over the years to come, no doubts that SR will feature a iGPU that is by and large lower mainstream level, which is very impressive all things considered. The more important issue for the long term of AMD is not the gaming performance but the HSA performance which is the most fundamental reason for the APU and Vision.
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Reply to sarinaide
mayankleoboy1
November 9, 2012 2:58:16 PM
sarinaide said:
I did raise this issue before, software developers don't have any interest in intel iGPU support, looking at my games boxes the "This game may not support intel integrated graphics solutions please consult blah blah blah". 40EU's, 9 Billion EU's, the issue is one company knows how to produce the hardware and software/firmware to support it, Intel don't have that luxury and I am sure as day Nvidia and AMD will not let them get the IP's to them. AMD Vision opperates of Catalyst drivers so driver support is not an issue. I can see AMD vision escalating quite a lot over the years to come, no doubts that SR will feature a iGPU that is by and large lower mainstream level, which is very impressive all things considered. The more important issue for the long term of AMD is not the gaming performance but the HSA performance which is the most fundamental reason for the APU and Vision.Games don't "target" GPU's. They follow some minimum graphics specification (say, DX10, SM3.0), and any GPU that meets those requirements should be able to play the game (performance aside at least). Intels problem for the longest time was very slow adoption of new GPU standards (SM3.0 support, for example), leading to lots of Intel GPU's not being supported for many games.
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Reply to gamerk316
esrever said:
Everything AMD made since the K5 has been OoO. Only x86 cpus on the market without OoO is atoms.Dunno if Atom is the only non-OoO x86 out there, but yes it is currently in-order to lower the power. IIRC I read somewhere that out-of-order processing takes a huge amount of power, maybe 30% or more of the total CPU power consumption, as well as large amounts of die area depending on how effective it's supposed to be. Itanium (not x86 obviously) is in-order and IIRC requires the compiler to resolve branches and other data dependencies to avoid stalling out.
Thought that Atom was going OoO either at 22nm or 14nm in order to speed it up. With the lower power consumption and the smaller transistor size, Intel should be able to keep the power draw low enough for the phone & tablet market. The latest ARM CPUs are OoO as well.
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Reply to fazers_on_stun
mayankleoboy1
November 10, 2012 1:21:59 PM
fazers_on_stun said:
Dunno if Atom is the only non-OoO x86 out there, but yes it is currently in-order to lower the power. IIRC I read somewhere that out-of-order processing takes a huge amount of power, maybe 30% or more of the total CPU power consumption, as well as large amounts of die area depending on how effective it's supposed to be. Itanium (not x86 obviously) is in-order and IIRC requires the compiler to resolve branches and other data dependencies to avoid stalling out. Thought that Atom was going OoO either at 22nm or 14nm in order to speed it up. With the lower power consumption and the smaller transistor size, Intel should be able to keep the power draw low enough for the phone & tablet market. The latest ARM CPUs are OoO as well.
It would be much better that all the heavy thing is done at the compile time. Leaving teh main CPU in-order and with a smaller die/power.
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Reply to mayankleoboy1
viridiancrystal
November 11, 2012 12:23:28 AM
http://www.tgdaily.com/hardware-features/63917-report-p...
^interesting rumor, but I'm keeping my salt close by.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20121108224721...
^expected, but informative.
^interesting rumor, but I'm keeping my salt close by.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20121108224721...
^expected, but informative.
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Reply to viridiancrystal
mayankleoboy1 said:
It would be much better that all the heavy thing is done at the compile time. Leaving teh main CPU in-order and with a smaller die/power.I would think also much more expensive too, but I dunno. Besides, like it or nutz
, we're still stuck with x86 legacy instructions after what - 30 years now. AFAIK the backwards compatibility doesn't take up too much die area or transistor budget - somebody mentioned maybe a million or two extra transistors which is tiny on a billion-plus CPU, a while back. Or we could all go out and buy Itaniums
. IIRC it's still a $4BN a year business for Intel so I doubt they'll be giving it up despite Oracle trying to kill it off..-
Reply to fazers_on_stun
viridiancrystal said:
http://www.tgdaily.com/hardware-features/63917-report-p...^interesting rumor, but I'm keeping my salt close by.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20121108224721...
^expected, but informative.
Until some must-have games come out strictly for PS4 or XBox Next, I'm sticking with my PS3
..From the 2nd article:
Quote:
According to Mercury Research, for the first time in several years the share of AMD’s microprocessors on the x86 market dropped to 16.1% in the third quarter of 2012 from 18.8% in Q3 2011. Market share of Intel increased to 83.3% in Q3 2012, up from 80.6% in the same quarter a year before. It is noteworthy that Intel gained on AMD mostly in desktops thanks to the roll-out of Intel Core i-series 3000-family “Ivy Bridge” microprocessors that started in April, 2012. At the time, AMD virtually had nothing to compete with against its arch-rival in Q3 2012 as it A-series “Llano” chips and FX-series “Bulldozer” central processing units were either slow or suffered from low supply of mainboards. The price-slash should give AMD an opportunity to fight back the unit market share from Intel.Pretty much what everybody expected from AMD's Q3 earnings report. I suspect their DT share is way, way down from the 41% of a year ago..
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Reply to fazers_on_stun
fazers_on_stun said:
Pretty much what everybody expected from AMD's Q3 earnings report. I suspect their DT share is way, way down from the 41% of a year ago..
41%! ... don't think AMD has been that high since the athlon days.
http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/02/amds-market-share-ti...
states 28.9% in april 2011
and to contradict that statement
http://www.techpowerup.com/164915/AMD-Gains-CPU-Market-...
43% for 2 years in april 2012 ...
and to contradict that statement
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-intel-cpu-processo...
toms said 26% in march 2012
somebody is lying and I'd place bets its on the people who claimed 43%, many more sites state DT market share was only in the 20s.
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Reply to noob2222
I'm sure they look at everything they can think of. It's not stated that AMD's Steamroller is coming out on the same socket, but AMD has also not stated or even rumored why Steamroller would NOT come out on both sockets next year either. Or at least for FM2.
(double neg is a gammer thing not a logic thing lols)
Although with Richland coming out on FM2, It's possible that richland will be on FM2 then Steamy on a different chipset/socket I suppose..
....But I've been thinking, there is a new process in the mix for a MUCH cheaper way to produce CPU's and other nanotech.
Link here: http://phys.org/news/2012-08-small-scale-solution-large...
If this takes off then far more companies will be able to, perhaps, enter the microchip business.
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Reply to NoUserBar
fazers_on_stun said:
Thought that Atom was going OoO either at 22nm or 14nm in order to speed it up. With the lower power consumption and the smaller transistor size, Intel should be able to keep the power draw low enough for the phone & tablet market. The latest ARM CPUs are OoO as well.
Next year the 22nm Atoms will be OoO and a full SoC. No extra chip sets needed.
2013 is looking to be quite active. New 64bit ARM chips, Haswell/Avoton, Steamroller APUs.
Well have to see how well ARM scales up to real server workloads, and if Intel can scale the wattage down.
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Reply to Cazalan
viridiancrystal said:
http://www.tgdaily.com/hardware-features/63917-report-p...^interesting rumor, but I'm keeping my salt close by.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20121108224721...
^expected, but informative.
since steamroller is most likely delayed that is all what's going to happen is price cuts Intel wont ever do it but a I3 that is unlocked would make Amd pretty irrelevant in the CPU market if Intel beats Amd in GPU integrated performance Amd will be done for.
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Reply to jdwii
skitz9417 said:
i dont think tht amd will beat intel cpu when it comes out in 2014u dont think tht?
Anyways, I think AMD Needs to release Steamroller around the same time Intel releases the 2nd Tick. The clock is running out, AMD has no time... As someone mentioned earlier, If Intel does beat AMD in the APU department... AMD will be finished.
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Reply to griptwister
noob2222 said:
41%! ... don't think AMD has been that high since the athlon days.There's a number of ways to measure marketshare - # chips shipped, # chips sold and $ revenue. So I don't think anybody is outright lying, they're just not clear on how they are measuring it. It's possible the lower percentage stems from revenue since AMD in general has lower ASPs.
Anyway, what's important here is the trend downwards, albeit in the stagnant DT market.
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Reply to fazers_on_stun
Cazalan said:
Next year the 22nm Atoms will be OoO and a full SoC. No extra chip sets needed. 2013 is looking to be quite active. New 64bit ARM chips, Haswell/Avoton, Steamroller APUs.
Well have to see how well ARM scales up to real server workloads, and if Intel can scale the wattage down.
Well the rumors are that Steamy won't see the light of day until sometime in 2014, so basically as far as desktop goes, what you see right now is what you'll be seeing this time next year.
Intel has already stated they are going for sub-10W Haswells, so that'll be interesting to compare to ARM. While I'm willing to trade performance on my Asus transformer ePad for all-day battery life, it would be nice to have both
.. -
Reply to fazers_on_stun
fazers_on_stun said:
Well the rumors are that Steamy won't see the light of day until sometime in 2014, so basically as far as desktop goes, what you see right now is what you'll be seeing this time next year.Intel has already stated they are going for sub-10W Haswells, so that'll be interesting to compare to ARM. While I'm willing to trade performance on my Asus transformer ePad for all-day battery life, it would be nice to have both
..Most likely if they do have 10 watt chips they will be cutting performance left and right.
Either way haswell is only going to be 10% better on average(higher clock speed, better turbo or IPC? in CPU benchmarks even according to Intel troll sites,
Haswell is all about power consumption upgrades and Graphics. I'm wondering if it will overclock well on the desktop lets see if they can get 5.0Ghz on air with a mid-range cooler i'll be like wow.
As for steamy i'm honestly disappointed Trinity is such a great product and the CPU inside of it really does fight a I3 pretty well its still weaker but not by much in most cases and steamy would of allowed Amd to pull ahead but of course something that great has to be delayed and when it comes out its going to get outclassed by Intel once again. And the stock continues to fall and the lay off's will probably be another 15% by this time next year. What's that CEO doing again? Starting to think Steve ballmer is better.
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Reply to jdwii
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