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AMD CPU speculation... and expert conjecture - Page 7

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a b À AMD
a b à CPUs
November 29, 2012 1:02:31 AM

Also AMD has been very quiet on the technical side. Everything is about their financial troubles right now and they have not announced anything in more than a month. No revised roadmaps yet, not even talks of the next generation for gpu. Things are really quiet.
November 29, 2012 2:00:49 AM

esrever said:
the ram were great as far as I know.



Thats not the point. Every RAM out there is good. The point is : Will they be able to distinguish themselves amongst other brands ?
November 29, 2012 10:25:10 AM

gamerk316 said:
Heres the problem with X86 in mobile: How many apps are written for Android/iOS for the ARM architecture? Its going to be REALLY hard for X86 to break in now. X86 in mobile is now basically reliant on Windows 8 for its success.


Since ARM processors were in mobile devices before Intel's, a substantial software base for ARM's processors was built up.

However, due to the way that the Google (GOOG) Android operating system and its programs are designed, instruction set is not relevant to
the majority of applications since almost every Android application is written in Java.
Java programs are written in a high level language and
then compiled down into an intermediate form called bytecode. This bytecode is then, at execution time, translated into the actual machine
instructions by a virtual machine. This means that the only barrier to compatibility is having a virtual machine built into Android that can
translate Java bytecode into native instructions. Intel and Google have achieved this, which is why software compatibility on Android is
essentially a non-issue. This is also why we have shipping Android phones with Intel processors in them today.


So the main barrier to entry for a new instruction set -- X86 in the mobile world -- is a non-issue on the target platform that Intel is aiming for
in phones. It also helps that Android's global market share is 75%. That means that Intel's chips could power the majority of the world's
smartphones without any technical limitations.


Quote:
EDIT

Basically, its the same exact situation with ARM on the desktop: With so many apps written against X86, what are the chances it can make inroads? Not very good.


No it is not the exact same situation.

ARM have a far harder task in overcoming software incompatibility with x86 software, than Intel has with Android.
Related resources
a b à CPUs
November 29, 2012 11:13:17 AM

Chad Boga said:
Since ARM processors were in mobile devices before Intel's, a substantial software base for ARM's processors was built up.

However, due to the way that the Google (GOOG) Android operating system and its programs are designed, instruction set is not relevant to
the majority of applications since almost every Android application is written in Java.
Java programs are written in a high level language and
then compiled down into an intermediate form called bytecode. This bytecode is then, at execution time, translated into the actual machine
instructions by a virtual machine. This means that the only barrier to compatibility is having a virtual machine built into Android that can
translate Java bytecode into native instructions. Intel and Google have achieved this, which is why software compatibility on Android is
essentially a non-issue. This is also why we have shipping Android phones with Intel processors in them today.


So the main barrier to entry for a new instruction set -- X86 in the mobile world -- is a non-issue on the target platform that Intel is aiming for
in phones. It also helps that Android's global market share is 75%. That means that Intel's chips could power the majority of the world's
smartphones without any technical limitations.


Quote:
EDIT

Basically, its the same exact situation with ARM on the desktop: With so many apps written against X86, what are the chances it can make inroads? Not very good.


No it is not the exact same situation.

ARM have a far harder task in overcoming software incompatibility with x86 software, than Intel has with Android.


Just one little caveat to that statement: High performing apps usually have code tied to the arch. So this works both ways. A program written in Java, as you say, can be ported with almost no issues in 90% of the cases, since the JVM works across platforms. Now, the thing is when you use "close to hardware" implementations. I don't really know what % is that (could be the 10% I'm thinking), but I'd say those are like pseudo-blockbuster apps. It's like Tegra3 games out there. They can run, mostly, across the board, but the porting process must be a PITA from the graphics point of view.

So, in short, base Android has no issues as an OS, but extrapolating that to the vast majority of apps is a really optimistic (but not so far off the mark) position for Intel (and the x86 ISA).

Cheers!
a b à CPUs
November 29, 2012 12:00:55 PM

Yuka said:
Just one little caveat to that statement: High performing apps usually have code tied to the arch. So this works both ways. A program written in Java, as you say, can be ported with almost no issues in 90% of the cases, since the JVM works across platforms. Now, the thing is when you use "close to hardware" implementations. I don't really know what % is that (could be the 10% I'm thinking), but I'd say those are like pseudo-blockbuster apps. It's like Tegra3 games out there. They can run, mostly, across the board, but the porting process must be a PITA from the graphics point of view.

So, in short, base Android has no issues as an OS, but extrapolating that to the vast majority of apps is a really optimistic (but not so far off the mark) position for Intel (and the x86 ISA).

Cheers!


More or less. And I note its normal even in Java to slap arch specific functions in when needed (mainly to hide Java's performance issues).

[rant]Its a shame really that Java caught on; now you have a generation of SW Engineers that are clueless about memory management and how to properly handle memory. I shudder to think of what will happen when these engineers touch a system where they have to manage memory themselves...[/rant]
November 29, 2012 12:35:23 PM

low level coding is going out of fashion, except in very specific cases. Fast hardware + high level language+excellent compiler = stupid programmer+ reduced development times.
a b à CPUs
November 29, 2012 2:39:58 PM

mayankleoboy1 said:
low level coding is going out of fashion, except in very specific cases. Fast hardware + high level language+excellent compiler = stupid programmer+ reduced development times.


Generally, yes, the compiler slaps in the low level replacements during compilation (SSE, AVX, etc). But remember that a LOT of functionality depends on the instruction set used. For instance, different graphics API's necessitates the entire graphical backend be re-designed, even if the end functionality is the same. You also have OS API differences, which necessitate a lot of code changes [pthreads vs CreateThread, for instance], regardless of the language of choice.
a b à CPUs
November 29, 2012 4:47:00 PM

Also, include closed libraries/frameworks to the party; those have to be ported as well :p 

Cheers!
November 29, 2012 5:10:40 PM

Umm guys I know this is a bit out of topic but, is there a good availability of vishera desktop processors there in the US? Here only a few (less than dozen) arrived only to one store and they are priced around 300US (the 8350) . And I wanna know if it's best to wait a bit or go for it. Thanks
a b à CPUs
November 29, 2012 5:17:31 PM

davemaster84 said:
Umm guys I know this is a bit out of topic but, is there a good availability of vishera desktop processors there in the US? Here only a few (less than dozen) arrived only to one store and they are priced around 300US (the 8350) . And I wanna know if it's best to wait a bit or go for it. Thanks


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

http://www.amazon.com/AMD-FX-Series-Eight-Core-Processo...

Looks like they are.

Where do you live? You could buy one from Amazon and get it shipped to you.

Cheers!
a b À AMD
a c 84 à CPUs
November 29, 2012 5:45:42 PM

davemaster84 said:
Umm guys I know this is a bit out of topic but, is there a good availability of vishera desktop processors there in the US? Here only a few (less than dozen) arrived only to one store and they are priced around 300US (the 8350) . And I wanna know if it's best to wait a bit or go for it. Thanks

imo $300 is core i7 price range. how are the core i5/i7 cpus priced at your location? i think i5/i7 would be better if they're around $300 as well....unless you're only upgrading the cpu of your existing am3+ pc.
a b à CPUs
November 29, 2012 7:33:36 PM

de5_Roy said:
imo $300 is core i7 price range. how are the core i5/i7 cpus priced at your location? i think i5/i7 would be better if they're around $300 as well....unless you're only upgrading the cpu of your existing am3+ pc.


Because there are only a handful and the store need money, they probably won't sell cheaper. The i7 would probably be more expensive. Think about that. How ever, I do agree with your statement... if you have $300 to blow, buy an i7 and sell your old MoBo and buy a z77.

I, for one, am waiting till March 2013 for the new Intel processor line to drop so I can upgrade to a FX 8350 for a better price point.
November 29, 2012 11:06:21 PM

Oh I see. Well the thing is that around here an i7 3770k is around 350 US (bit more) and the i5 3570k is at 250, although I might consider the i7 (the i5 is not as good as the 8350) I've a good am3+ mobo, changing to intel with a similar mobo would be between 600 and 700 US so I'd rather just pay 300 for the 8350. By the way I live at Bogotá, Colombia.
a b à CPUs
November 30, 2012 11:25:40 AM

Oh yeah, Bogotá.

My Iranian friend has exactly the same problem lol.
a b à CPUs
November 30, 2012 11:36:47 AM

amdfangirl said:
Oh yeah, Bogotá.

My Iranian friend has exactly the same problem lol.


Well if he lives in Bogota and thinks it's Iran, he has a somewhat bigger problem, such as maybe using iMaps :p ..
a b à CPUs
November 30, 2012 11:41:41 AM

I can navigate through mountains while hiking.

Yet, when it comes down to someone asking what streets join with the street I live on, I tell him I'm from overseas.

It's worse when I try and read a street map. :3

I'm selectively iMaps :) .
November 30, 2012 1:38:38 PM

IMO FX-8xxx has little to no use in gaming, even at 189.99, half of the cpu is never used in anything but benchmarks. quite sad, it even gets beat in benchmarks by a 4 core...(SB/IB i5's still kick its @$$) maybe if your rendering videos.... not sure on that, though.

Im still hesitant about Haswell. i dont need a 14W processor... seems like they are just going to "port" a laptop cpu to desktops. if they can lower power without losing ... power, how many people are going to upgrade? few to none. if AMD gets there ducks in a row they MAY be able to make something to compete with Intel when they mess up and ignore the gaming section of the market.

So, AMD. make something that is 4 cores that will whoop an i5 @stock clocks and INCLUDE a great cooler, i don't care if it sucks 180w. and sell it for 200 bucks. you will OWN the gaming CPU market, no doubt. (and your making your chips in china for 15 bucks already. you would still make a killing off this.)
a b à CPUs
November 30, 2012 1:59:23 PM

davemaster84 said:
Oh I see. Well the thing is that around here an i7 3770k is around 350 US (bit more) and the i5 3570k is at 250, although I might consider the i7 (the i5 is not as good as the 8350) I've a good am3+ mobo, changing to intel with a similar mobo would be between 600 and 700 US so I'd rather just pay 300 for the 8350. By the way I live at Bogotá, Colombia.


I think is not so expensive to send stuff (with Amazon) to Colombia. You could take a look into the mail over seas area for Amazon. My guess is it should be around usd$40 to send it.

And the FX8350 holds its own in some games. Too bad Intel still gets more love though :p 

Cheers!
a b à CPUs
November 30, 2012 2:43:30 PM

Yuka said:
I think is not so expensive to send stuff (with Amazon) to Colombia. You could take a look into the mail over seas area for Amazon. My guess is it should be around usd$40 to send it.

And the FX8350 holds its own in some games. Too bad Intel still gets more love though :p 

Cheers!


But expected. Adding more cores is simply a performance scalar; adding a second core adds, best case, 2x the performance.

Point being, if individual core performance is half as fast, adding a second core only gets you to equal performance, in best case conditions only. Otherwise, you are still slower.

Hence AMD's problem: 90% of S/W loads do not scale, thus performance is dominated by clockspeed * IPC. Clockspeed is within a few hundred MHz, and IPC is a significant Intel edge. Hence why AMD is behind/even in most workloads.
November 30, 2012 2:52:05 PM

And i thought it was the corporate capitalist Intel bastards who use slow code in non intel CPU's in their compiler, and bribe software developers to use ICC only, which made Intel better over AMD.
November 30, 2012 2:57:15 PM

@Gamerk316 Hazarding a guess, correct me if wrong: 90% of the propritery/FOSS software/app/program we use on our Windows machines is built/compiled using windows SDK+ Visual Studio ?


To all :

I read an article that compared ICC vs Visual Studio . They found that Intel does discriminate against AMD CPU's.
BUT
Code compiled on ICC for AMD is faster than same code compiled on VS2012 for AMD. That is, ICC creates better code than VS2012 for both Intel and AMD. In case of Intel CPU, the code is more better.
a b à CPUs
November 30, 2012 3:21:34 PM

mayankleoboy1 said:
They found that Intel does discriminate against AMD CPU's.


At the end of the day we still have to live with the pre-compiled programs. Would be nice if we could remove the bias, but certainly this is difficult in the Windows world.

Faster is still faster, even if the code is biased because we certainly can't do anything about it :/ .
a b à CPUs
November 30, 2012 5:25:16 PM

amdfangirl said:
I can navigate through mountains while hiking.

Yet, when it comes down to someone asking what streets join with the street I live on, I tell him I'm from overseas.

It's worse when I try and read a street map. :3

I'm selectively iMaps :) .


Hmm, I usually try navigating over or around mountains, instead of through them :D . Unless there's a tunnel that is.. :whistle: 
a b à CPUs
November 30, 2012 5:30:10 PM

Har har, you're so clever :p 
a b À AMD
a b à CPUs
November 30, 2012 5:44:01 PM

amdfangirl said:
At the end of the day we still have to live with the pre-compiled programs. Would be nice if we could remove the bias, but certainly this is difficult in the Windows world.

Faster is still faster, even if the code is biased because we certainly can't do anything about it :/ .

can always boot unix and use a different program
a b à CPUs
November 30, 2012 6:54:19 PM

mayankleoboy1 said:
@Gamerk316 Hazarding a guess, correct me if wrong: 90% of the propritery/FOSS software/app/program we use on our Windows machines is built/compiled using windows SDK+ Visual Studio ?


To all :

I read an article that compared ICC vs Visual Studio . They found that Intel does discriminate against AMD CPU's.
BUT
Code compiled on ICC for AMD is faster than same code compiled on VS2012 for AMD. That is, ICC creates better code than VS2012 for both Intel and AMD. In case of Intel CPU, the code is more better.


More or less correct on both points. When you get into things like threading and graphics rendering, its hard NOT to invoke the OS SDK and API. That logic needs to be replaced when porting across platform, Java or no.

And yes, ICC typically produces better code for AMD then any other compiler. Sure, it biases Intel, but given how the compiler is designed/developed/owned by Intel, and it produces better code for AMD then any other compiler, AMD really doesn't have much of an argument to make.
a b à CPUs
November 30, 2012 7:16:56 PM

AMD has had several options. Sadly they are not in a position really to improve that with the current layoffs and projected layoffs for early next year.

Make their own compiler.
Work with Microsoft to improve theirs.
Get more involved with GCC.
a b à CPUs
November 30, 2012 7:23:44 PM

Cazalan said:
AMD has had several options. Sadly they are not in a position really to improve that with the current layoffs and projected layoffs for early next year.

Make their own compiler.
Work with Microsoft to improve theirs.
Get more involved with GCC.


I couldn't agree more...
a b À AMD
a b à CPUs
November 30, 2012 9:21:29 PM

Cazalan said:
AMD has had several options. Sadly they are not in a position really to improve that with the current layoffs and projected layoffs for early next year.

Make their own compiler.
Work with Microsoft to improve theirs.
Get more involved with GCC.

D- none of the above and just quit the high end market.
a b à CPUs
November 30, 2012 10:25:35 PM

esrever said:
D- none of the above and just quit the high end market.


:lol:  Someone wants processor prices higher than Wiz Khalifa and less demand for performance increase from intel. :D 
a b À AMD
a b à CPUs
November 30, 2012 10:42:00 PM

griptwister said:
:lol:  Someone wants processor prices higher than Wiz Khalifa and less demand for performance increase from intel. :D 
I really could care less about how much it costs for an i7. For my needs, AMD actually offers better performance/$ and is even competitive on performance/watt. Trinity APUs for general use is great. As long as I can do basic gaming on my off time and run 2 virtual machines Im fine.
a b à CPUs
November 30, 2012 10:47:46 PM

esrever said:
I really could care less about how much it costs for an i7. For my needs, AMD actually offers better performance/$ and is even competitive on performance/watt. Trinity APUs for general use is great. As long as I can do basic gaming on my off time and run 2 virtual machines Im fine.


I see what you're saying... It sounded like you wanted AMD going down hill for a second there... But I like AMD's "Enthusiast Level" Processors :hello:  I hope they get their Gig together and release a finished product by Summer 2013 (even though we all know that's not happening).
a b à CPUs
November 30, 2012 10:59:59 PM

Cazalan said:
AMD has had several options. Sadly they are not in a position really to improve that with the current layoffs and projected layoffs for early next year.

Make their own compiler.
Work with Microsoft to improve theirs.
Get more involved with GCC.


Uhm... All of the above? =/

They do have their own compiler called Open64: http://developer.amd.com/tools/cpu-development/x86-open...

They did work with MS for the old Athlon and x86_64 extension at the time, but MS never pushed more than that. That's not AMDs fault (nor Intel's for that matter).

And they do work with GCC: http://developer.amd.com/tools/open-source/gcc-and-gnu-...

Being the underdog is not easy, because big devs answer to big bucks :p 

Cheers!

EDIT: Typo
December 1, 2012 12:37:18 AM

AMD's open64 is quite sh!tty. In Phoronix tests, it regularly fairs worse than GCC. Plus, Open64 produces only Linux code, IIRC.
a b à CPUs
December 1, 2012 12:42:58 AM

I can never understand why this thread always ends up being advice for AMD as a company when more or less we should be concerned with the product.

It just amuses me :) .
December 1, 2012 12:59:04 AM

Yuka said:
I think is not so expensive to send stuff (with Amazon) to Colombia. You could take a look into the mail over seas area for Amazon. My guess is it should be around usd$40 to send it.

And the FX8350 holds its own in some games. Too bad Intel still gets more love though :p 

Cheers!


Thanks man!
December 1, 2012 1:00:46 AM

fazers_on_stun said:
Well if he lives in Bogota and thinks it's Iran, he has a somewhat bigger problem, such as maybe using iMaps :p ..


True story there's a big difference between Iran and Colombia but whatever, I'll wait a bit and see what happens. Thanks people
a b À AMD
a b à CPUs
December 1, 2012 1:41:15 AM

amdfangirl said:
I can never understand why this thread always ends up being advice for AMD as a company when more or less we should be concerned with the product.

It just amuses me :) .

companies make products. concern for the product might as well be concern for the company that makes it.
a b À AMD
a c 84 à CPUs
December 1, 2012 4:30:00 AM

amdfangirl said:
I can never understand why this thread always ends up being advice for AMD as a company when more or less we should be concerned with the product.

It just amuses me :) .

a. slow news day.
b. steamroller(as rumored so far) atm seems pretty much a bust. amd could end up designing something else and call it steamroller.
c. Loooooooove <3 <3 <3 for amd due to strong(creepy) brand loyalty(intel b ebil!).

i am too lazy to make another post.
amd says they will fall back on x86 once their arm ventures fail... or something to that effect....
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20121130040403...
Socket AM3 continues to Q2 2012+
http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/29668-socket-am3-cont...
AMD to show off Temash soon
http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/29651-amd-to-show-off...
a b à CPUs
December 2, 2012 4:17:47 AM



Better constructed. Rating was a bit low, but it is expected. That guy in the previous video is a hardcore intel fanboy. I've seen some hard core trolling from his channel on everything AMD.
a b à CPUs
December 2, 2012 11:26:29 AM

esrever said:
companies make products. concern for the product might as well be concern for the company that makes it.


Yep, esp. if you are concerned about said company providing support or warranty for the product, or developing new drop-in upgrades for the product.. Not many enthusiasts willing to shell out for a dead-end product, which is something Intel might learn if Broadwell is indeed soldered to the mobo and not socketed.
December 3, 2012 5:10:13 AM

lilcinw said:
I agree. AMD has stated that they are no longer in the x86 performance race and I take that to mean that they can get more out of HSA than they would be able to from classic 'IPC' improvements going forward. If they can actually accomplish that on a reasonable timeline is the question.

I am very interested in how well the FirePro branded APUs will be received and I wonder if an Opteron branded APU is going to show up in the extended roadmap.

I would like to see SR do well enough to extend the viability of my AM3+ platform but if the release is not until 2014 that seems unlikely. Upgrading my 4100 to an 8320 for $170 was an easy decision, upgrading again may not be.


AMD said that about x86 performance in the fall of 2011, before they got Jim Keller back this past August. There's no way that guy, who is now head of AMD's CPU division, isn't going to crank up their x86 performance dramatically. He's the best CPU designer in the world. Literally.
December 3, 2012 5:38:38 AM

^ Point to consider
It appears there will be a change of direction, as theyve cleared the way for it, and hired Keller to make those changes, be glad this has happened actually
a b à CPUs
December 3, 2012 1:47:55 PM

Remains to be seen. Actually, I'm more afraid of JP Morgan getting their dirty claws in AMD than anything else.

Cheers!

EDIT: Typo
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