I see why hunters have such a bad reputation

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

So I was playing really tired last night in a 5-man on Scholomance and I
wasn't on the top of my game. I see now why hunters have a bad
reputation. It's very hard to do everything right and it's very easy to
do one thing wrong when it comes to playing as a hunter. Here are some
examples:

1) We are bypassing a group of mobs and the pet takes the long way
around, aggroing mobs. We wipe.
2) We're fighting some mobs and the pet gets feared into another group
of mobs. We wipe. They were inclined to blame my pet, but it was
really more the fault of us not using the proper pulling strategies (we
know what enemies fear, we should engage them somewhere safe).
3) The pet gets feared into more enemies and we don't wipe, but it was
close. Evidently we didn't learn the lesson of #2.
4) The pet chases a fleeing human into a group of more enemies. We
wipe. See #2 again.
5) I get to close to a group of enemies when setting up my trap and
aggro them. We wipe.

.... see a pattern here? 5-man Scholomance is very dangerous and if you
don't do everything just right, you're toast. You have to be in control
of your pet from second to second and watch him very carefully to make
sure he isn't chasing down a fleeing mob. In my tired state, I was
actually sort of drifting in and out, and would find myself sitting
there pounding autoshot for awhile while I took a mental break. You may
think I should've quit the group at this point, but they were inclined
to keep me because, at that time, there was really no one else around.

It didn't help that I wasn't the puller. Being the puller is my one
chance to shine. Of course, I was putting down traps and such, and the
warrior (or rogue if we were fighting humanoids) was trying his best to
bring the enemies across the freezing traps. But I like pulling because
I know how my pet is going to react and I know how far back we should be
when fighting mobs. Also, if I get a bad pull I can at least attempt to
feign death to save myself without wiping the party ... a warrior or
rogue just has to stand there and die.

So, in summary, I believe I did a bit of damage to my class last night.
By the end I just didn't have the pet out at all because it didn't seem
worth the risk. But that furry fella is a good 25% of my DPS, and not
using him gimps me.

--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris
59 answers Last reply
More about hunters reputation
  1. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    "Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
    news:Xns965EA36762C772galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...

    > It didn't help that I wasn't the puller. Being the puller is my one
    > chance to shine. Of course, I was putting down traps and such, and the
    > warrior (or rogue if we were fighting humanoids) was trying his best to
    > bring the enemies across the freezing traps. But I like pulling because
    > I know how my pet is going to react and I know how far back we should be
    > when fighting mobs. Also, if I get a bad pull I can at least attempt to
    > feign death to save myself without wiping the party ... a warrior or
    > rogue just has to stand there and die.
    >

    A warrior may have to stand there and die, but the rogue should just hit
    vanish.

    --
    Davian / Dearic (Bloodhoof)

    "We need a new Mario game, where you rescue the princess in the first ten
    minutes, and for the rest of the game you try and push down that sick feeling
    in your stomach that she's "damaged goods"... When Peach asks you, in the
    quiet of her mushroom castle bedroom "do you still love me?" you pretend to be
    asleep. You press the A button rhythmically, to control your breath, keep it
    even." - Joey Comeau on increased realism in gaming.
  2. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    "Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
    news:Xns965EA36762C772galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...
    > It didn't help that I wasn't the puller. Being the puller is my one
    > chance to shine. Of course, I was putting down traps and such, and the
    > warrior (or rogue if we were fighting humanoids) was trying his best to
    > bring the enemies across the freezing traps. But I like pulling because
    > I know how my pet is going to react and I know how far back we should be
    > when fighting mobs. Also, if I get a bad pull I can at least attempt to
    > feign death to save myself without wiping the party ... a warrior or
    > rogue just has to stand there and die.

    I never pull in Scholo. What I do do is set a trap away from the party, mark
    who I'm going to freeze and pull them out of the pack into the trap (outof
    AOE range ideally) after the tank has pulled (or usually the Pallie in
    Scholo). Maybe set another trap for when he's out and then get assisting. My
    pet won't be let off the leash until I know that another offtank is needed
    or when I know the mob under fire isn't going anywhere due to
    hamstring/concussion shot. Even if I do send him in, my mouse is usually
    hovering over the stay or follow command while the autshot does its thing.

    It's not particular to Scholo. Any 5 man instance, Dire Maul for example,
    requires a class as flexible and multi-tasking as a hunter to be on his/her
    toes.
  3. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    "porl" <porlp@btinternet.com> wrote in
    news:3fc7m1F72qabU1@individual.net:

    >
    > "Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
    > news:Xns965EA36762C772galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...
    >> It didn't help that I wasn't the puller. Being the puller is my one
    >> chance to shine. Of course, I was putting down traps and such, and
    >> the warrior (or rogue if we were fighting humanoids) was trying his
    >> best to bring the enemies across the freezing traps. But I like
    >> pulling because I know how my pet is going to react and I know how
    >> far back we should be when fighting mobs. Also, if I get a bad pull
    >> I can at least attempt to feign death to save myself without wiping
    >> the party ... a warrior or rogue just has to stand there and die.
    >
    > I never pull in Scholo. What I do do is set a trap away from the
    > party, mark who I'm going to freeze and pull them out of the pack into
    > the trap (outof AOE range ideally) after the tank has pulled (or
    > usually the Pallie in Scholo). Maybe set another trap for when he's
    > out and then get assisting. My pet won't be let off the leash until I
    > know that another offtank is needed or when I know the mob under fire
    > isn't going anywhere due to hamstring/concussion shot. Even if I do
    > send him in, my mouse is usually hovering over the stay or follow
    > command while the autshot does its thing.

    Yeah, I guess I really just need to be more careful about my pet. When
    they let me pull it always goes a lot better. When I'm pulling I feel
    that I'm in control and I get to control the pace of the encounters. I
    don't get nearly as bored and I don't fool around as much. I get to
    control where we fight the enemies, and keeping my pet in mind, I've
    never had a problem with a pet chasing an enemy or getting feared and
    aggroing more mobs.

    Hrrmm, I think I've figured it out. When I pull, everything seems to go
    well. The people I regularly group with know as much and let me pull.
    The recent problems I've had in Scholomance was because our puller
    wasn't having us stand far enough back, and thus we were getting pet
    edge effects. I need to pay more attention next time I'm not pulling
    and make sure they fight the encounters in the correct location.

    > It's not particular to Scholo. Any 5 man instance, Dire Maul for
    > example, requires a class as flexible and multi-tasking as a hunter to
    > be on his/her toes.

    I never had a problem with my pet in Dire Maul. Those guys don't fear
    or run away, though. And the groups of mobs are better separated. I
    always pull in Dire Maul. In Scholomance, there's enough humanoid
    enemies that rogues need to pull for sapping purposes.


    --
    ~ Cyde Weys ~

    Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
    Aeria gloris, aeria gloris
  4. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    > A warrior may have to stand there and die, but the rogue should just hit
    > vanish.
    >
    If they have the reagent needed, which they should.

    Regarding the main thread, I would say a pet in an instance should at all
    times be in passive mode. If the dungeon has multiple paths, where a pet
    can go a different path, I would dismiss him and whistle him back when
    needed.
    And regarding your pet chasing a mob and aggroing more, I would place ice
    traps in between mobs so if one is fleeing towards another mob area they can
    be held there.
    I really don't know about this dungeon, but it should work the same.
  5. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    porl a écrit :
    > "Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
    > news:Xns965EE829B4FAE2galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...
    > > I never had a problem with my pet in Dire Maul. Those guys don't
    fear
    > > or run away, though. And the groups of mobs are better separated.
    I
    > > always pull in Dire Maul. In Scholomance, there's enough humanoid
    > > enemies that rogues need to pull for sapping purposes.
    >
    > I don't really know why you insist on pulling. Apart from feign death
    (which
    > isn't a guaranteed get out) there's no advantage in a hunter pulling
    > especially in a tight area like Scholomance where you're unlikely to
    need to
    > utilise a 41 yard range. A warrior throwing a brick will aggro the
    required
    > mobs just the same and it's pretty easy to know which other mobs are
    going
    > to come along as well.
    >
    > You're much more likley to want the Mage to pull by sheeping a caster
    or
    > silence, the rogue to pull by sapping or the warrior to pull by
    charging and
    > shield bashing a caster when the other two aren't available, or a
    warlock to
    > banish or a Druid to sleep (in UBRS for instance).
    >
    > I used to believe the myth that hunters were the natural pullers, and
    insist
    > on doing it, but I got over it and almost never do it now. I do
    sometimes
    > pull from the mobs the warrior pulled, but that's with the
    understanding of
    > the party for CC purposes.

    I've yet to really see the point in pulling tactics. From my (priestly)
    point of view, the best pulling tactic is to have someone do some kind
    of big AOE attack. That way all the mobs are in one place with one
    enemy that I can heal easily without having to worry about drawing
    aggro.

    A shaman is great for this. I've yet to see a better tank, even
    warriors couldn't compete. Chain Lightning/Fire Nova totem/magma
    totem/rockbiter while I heal, the hunter spams multishots, the warrior
    whirlwinds and demo shouts in berzerk stance, and the mage blizzards
    and cones of cold. The shaman is near certain to keep all mobs on him,
    and the fight ends quicker than my first time ;)

    Finesse is for sissies :P
  6. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    Christian Stauffer wrote:

    /snipe

    >
    > The warrior I grouped with is not to blame, as he was 40 and I was
    44.
    > As it would've been hard for him to hold aggro, I did the pulling and
    main
    > tanking anyway and it was a good decision from him to use aggressive
    or
    > berserk stance, because we didn't have another dedicated damage
    dealer :o)
    >

    Wrong, I have being doing SM as an 39 - 40th lvl warrior who had no
    problem holding aggro.

    Our group consisted of

    rogue
    warrior
    druid

    It is harder to hold aggro in battle stance than in defense stance
    because warrior only had challenge shout (that can be used in all
    stances) which is an AoE with 10 minutes cool down. Like Christian
    said, my warrior is in defense mode in the instance in order to use
    taunt (10s cooldown).

    My tactic for holding a mobs after the pull is to use

    bloodrage -> taunt -> cleave -> disarm/sunder armor -> cleave -> repeat

    Since I can hit up to 4 mobs with cleave, I have no trouble holding
    their aggro. Usually when the mob attacks spell caster, I can run over
    to get its attention with

    taunt -> cleave -> disarm/sunder armor -> cleave -> repeat


    which will add him to my group of mobs. If I can't run over, I usually
    ask the spell caster to kite her mob over to where I am or have her
    standing behind me. Then when her mob came in range, he will be cleaved
    and joined the we-hate-warrior club.

    my warrior is a DW fury spec. He was able to build up rage quick
    against the mob. Bloodrage helps to get a good kickstart since healer
    is there to heal.
  7. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    porl a écrit :
    > Would that work in a 5 man party in Scholomance? With casters casting

    > silence and summoning mobs? Plus the additional dangers of runners?
    >

    Of course not, I want to try, but they never let me :P

    At least it would work a bit better than a Leeroy pull!
  8. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    I mean Davian, when I mentioned Christian in my post about warrior
    using defensive stance in instances.

    mea culpa
  9. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    Are you nuts? Guess you're talking about fighting murlocs near the
    newbie area. Try that with elite groups at or around your level. You
    REALLY want to pull them one or two at a time
  10. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    "Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
    news:Xns965EA36762C772galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...
    > It didn't help that I wasn't the puller.

    Hunters shouldn't pull. The fact that you insist on pulling reflects more
    poorly on the class than anything else you did.
  11. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    wolfing wrote:
    > Are you nuts? Guess you're talking about fighting murlocs near the
    > newbie area. Try that with elite groups at or around your level. You
    > REALLY want to pull them one or two at a time

    Why pull one or two at a time when you can pull 5 or 6 together and
    still win in the approximate same amount of time?

    I'm serious up to a certain point, of course. Up to and including
    Zul'Farak, actually. I play holy priest, and I'm bored with shooting
    the wand and finishing fights with 95% of my mana (in case of a "bad"
    pull or patrol) while every other caster drinks, that's the point. So
    bring it on, pull them all, much quicker, and much more fun for
    everyone, just make sure everybody use area of effect attacks like
    crazy :)
  12. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    Christian Stauffer a écrit :
    > "wolfing" <wolfing1@yahoo.com> wrote:
    >
    > > Are you nuts? Guess you're talking about fighting murlocs near the
    > > newbie area. Try that with elite groups at or around your level.
    You
    > > REALLY want to pull them one or two at a time
    >
    > One or two at a time?? A good balanced team (both by classes, and by
    > skills) is able to take down a minimum of 1 elite mob of their level
    > PER MEMBER with no problem.
    >
    > And, as sick as babes strategy may sound,
    > a) it kills like hell -> the faster the battle is over, the better
    > b) it gives a near 100% certainity of not letting the healing draw
    > aggro

    I vote b) for the win, but that's just me!

    > c) it involves tanking by a hunter (and his pet) and a shaman, both
    > together should have enough armor/health to do the job that's
    > usually done by one single warrior

    Errr... I never talked about the pet ;)

    Nah, the pet should just be on eye of the beast exploring around and
    pulling the remaining monsters in the instance :)


    > I don't think it's the safest or fastest (downtime!) way, but I
    > guess it's a working (and funny) one.
    >
    > Chris

    Well, downtime is better. I think. Because when the mage needs to
    drink, so does the priest, the druid, etc, even the warrior needs a
    drink or two to relax. So you get one full downtime instead of 2-3
    where only the mage is down.

    But I concur on the fun part. Just make sure the
    shaman/warlock/paladin/druid/hunter/rogue has the wipe recovery tools
    at hand :)
  13. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    Christian Stauffer wrote:
    > >
    > > Wrong, I have being doing SM as an 39 - 40th lvl warrior who had no
    > > problem holding aggro.
    >
    > Ok :-) Let's say he didn't hold aggro, so I tanked, what made his
    > decision to go aggressive/berserk ok in the end :)
    >

    How big is your group? Do you have another healer? Your method makes
    sense if there is another healer do the healing... Which obviously you
    do from the last statement you have made. Then tank away.

    Though it is understand that warrior goes defensive stance in
    instances, if you and the warrior have been working together before and
    know what parts to play, then it work well too.

    Doing SM make me realize how annoy pally is with their 3x heal. Yes, I
    heard and read about it. But never really experience it until the SM.


    > > Our group consisted of
    > >
    > > rogue
    > > warrior
    > > druid
    >
    > Ah, the unbeatable trio :)
    >

    :-) Concur - personally, I agree that this is an ideal size for
    instance run, plenty of excitement to pass around


    > > It is harder to hold aggro in battle stance than in defense stance
    > > because warrior only had challenge shout (that can be used in all
    > > stances) which is an AoE with 10 minutes cool down. Like Christian
    > > said, my warrior is in defense mode in the instance in order to use
    > > taunt (10s cooldown).
    >
    > I see.
    >

    Correction, there is also that Mocking Strikes availabe only in battle
    stance. It function like taunt when hit, but it also has a long cool
    down period.


    > > My tactic for holding a mobs after the pull is to use
    > >
    > > bloodrage -> taunt -> cleave -> disarm/sunder armor -> cleave ->
    repeat
    >
    > Looks quite like I do it: Pull with wrath + moonfire + fairie fire
    (the
    > latter two are instants) -> Shift to bear -> demoralizing roar to
    grab
    > aggro from those mobs i didn't harm yet, cleave to build up more
    aggro. I
    > only use taunt if a mob attacks a clothwearer or a rogue.
    >

    Our group, rogue do the pulling, then I played interceptor to hold
    their aggro before they get too close to sense the tasty druid.

    Good point, I forget to mention the use of Demoralizing Shout because
    it only worked 50% of the time in the instance, not a sure bet like
    taunt or cleave. But it does lower their attack powers which is the
    primary reason I used rather as a tool to grab aggro.


    >
    > I figured that a while ago, too :-). And I have thorns on me (15
    damage
    > dealt when someone hits me), that's a good thing to build up hate
    too.
    >
    > Until about a month ago, I casted thorns on everyone in the party,
    just
    > like I buffed them with MOTW. Then I read somewhere that thorns is
    not
    > there to actually do damage, but to build up aggro, and I thought
    > "damn, of course, why the hell didn't I figure that out by myself?".
    > Since I cast thorns only on myself and the warrior(s), it made it a
    > good piece easier to hold aggro :o)
    >

    Another good point, thanks for pointing it out, I need to let my druid
    know about this. We are so used to buff everyone with the Mark of the
    Wild & Thorn automatically upon enter an instance.


    >
    > Taunt -> 5 seconds of hitting -> bash (that's usually enough to keep
    its
    > attention for a while :)
    >

    then it lost interests on you and focused on the rogue, how rude. :-)


    >
    > > my warrior is a DW fury spec. He was able to build up rage quick
    > > against the mob. Bloodrage helps to get a good kickstart since
    healer
    > > is there to heal.
    >
    > Is bloodrage the skill that converts health to rage? I didn't even
    buy
    > the druids representation of this ability, because I thought it's not
    > very useful. Do you use it a lot? I guess I should give it a try,
    > because my standard party is having more than enough healing power :)
    >

    Yes. I used bloodrage a lot in defense mode because it quickly gives
    you enough rages to get off that first cleave within 5 sec of battle.
    And once, everyone start hitting on you, its easy to get rages points
    :-)
  14. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    "Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
    news:Xns965EE829B4FAE2galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...
    > I never had a problem with my pet in Dire Maul. Those guys don't fear
    > or run away, though. And the groups of mobs are better separated. I
    > always pull in Dire Maul. In Scholomance, there's enough humanoid
    > enemies that rogues need to pull for sapping purposes.

    I don't really know why you insist on pulling. Apart from feign death (which
    isn't a guaranteed get out) there's no advantage in a hunter pulling
    especially in a tight area like Scholomance where you're unlikely to need to
    utilise a 41 yard range. A warrior throwing a brick will aggro the required
    mobs just the same and it's pretty easy to know which other mobs are going
    to come along as well.

    You're much more likley to want the Mage to pull by sheeping a caster or
    silence, the rogue to pull by sapping or the warrior to pull by charging and
    shield bashing a caster when the other two aren't available, or a warlock to
    banish or a Druid to sleep (in UBRS for instance).

    I used to believe the myth that hunters were the natural pullers, and insist
    on doing it, but I got over it and almost never do it now. I do sometimes
    pull from the mobs the warrior pulled, but that's with the understanding of
    the party for CC purposes.
  15. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    > The owner of a Druid who continues to out-tank every warrior they
    > group with, and a retired hunter :-)

    Yeah, uh huh. What level is this druid?

    In Dire Bear form I have over 9K amor self-buffed and a 15% crit rate
    and even I'd prefer to let a Warrior be MT. Warriors have Block, Parry
    and a host of other tools that make them better suited to the job.
    Anyone playing a driuid that says they can out tank "every Warrior" is
    just being an arrogant prick.

    I'm not saying we can't tank. We can and do it well, if (and only if)
    we have the equipment for it. (Don't go thinking all that sta/int/spi
    gear does you any good while tanking.) We're just better suited to MA
    or 3rd tank (in raids) when we do.

    Regards,
    Noal

    --
    Dharzhak - Night Elf Druid (60) on Stormrage [PvE]
  16. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    "porl" <porlp@btinternet.com> wrote in message
    news:3fdio8F77ln6U1@individual.net...
    >
    > "Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
    > news:Xns965EE829B4FAE2galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...
    >> I never had a problem with my pet in Dire Maul. Those guys don't fear
    >> or run away, though. And the groups of mobs are better separated. I
    >> always pull in Dire Maul. In Scholomance, there's enough humanoid
    >> enemies that rogues need to pull for sapping purposes.
    >
    > I don't really know why you insist on pulling. Apart from feign death
    > (which isn't a guaranteed get out) there's no advantage in a hunter
    > pulling especially in a tight area like Scholomance where you're unlikely
    > to need to utilise a 41 yard range. A warrior throwing a brick will aggro
    > the required mobs just the same and it's pretty easy to know which other
    > mobs are going to come along as well.
    >
    > You're much more likley to want the Mage to pull by sheeping a caster or
    > silence, the rogue to pull by sapping or the warrior to pull by charging
    > and shield bashing a caster when the other two aren't available, or a
    > warlock to banish or a Druid to sleep (in UBRS for instance).
    >
    > I used to believe the myth that hunters were the natural pullers, and
    > insist on doing it, but I got over it and almost never do it now. I do
    > sometimes pull from the mobs the warrior pulled, but that's with the
    > understanding of the party for CC purposes.
    I believe that a Hunter will want to pull because in solo play it's careful
    / skilful pulling that makes life easy for them. This translates to group
    play 'sometimes', so long as your tank is worthy of the name and can gain
    aggro. That said, nuking (aimed shot) with your pull shot is something that
    I've seen lots, and been guilty of, then you wonder why the 'useless' tank
    isn't drawing it off you and the beastie is eating your face. Using a hunter
    to mark targets is very very useful, using a hunter to pull, sometimes good,
    sometimes bad.

    The comments I've seen (paraphrased):

    Warrior: I need to pull to get it's aggro - Not entirely true
    Hunter: I must pull cos I can mark - No no no, the 2 are not joined at the
    hip
    Warrior: Stop that pet getting aggro!! - Whyyyyyy?
    Hunter: but fire traps do damage, ice sux! - Riiiight, ok. Frozen mobs =
    less things kicking our faces in
    Warrior: But defensive stance does no damage - Ooooh, ok, let get the mage
    to tank shall we? or the priest maybe...
    Hunter: ...but pet defensive makes it easier for me - Yah, 1 wipe coming up
    Warrior (to a druid): How did you get all those mods to attack you? - You've
    heard of Talents right?

    My point is it's it's easy to be passable at a class, any class, but KNOWING
    our class and it's limits sets you apart. A good hunter and a good tank
    means you don't really need to worry who pull, they can both do the job and
    help everyone else stay on there cloth wearing feet.

    Alex
    The owner of a Druid who continues to out-tank every warrior they group
    with, and a retired hunter :-)
    --
    If life had the equivalent of
    IDDQD
    IDKFA
    ....I'd maybe go outside, maybe
  17. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    > Is bloodrage the skill that converts health to rage? I didn't
    > even buy the druids representation of this ability, because
    > I thought it's not very useful.

    *blink*

    It's not useful if you're never in bear form. If you are, it's mission
    critical. Hell, since ours just slightly lowers armor temporarily, it's
    arguably even better than the warrrior's one.

    No rage = no bash, no maul, no taunt, no feral charge, no discouraging
    roar and especially no regeneration. Without rage, you might as well
    just stand there and whack them with a stick.

    Regards,
    Noal

    --
    Dharzhak - Night Elf Druid (60) on Stormrage [PvE]
    Kemwer - Tauren Warrior (21) on Stormrage [PvE]
  18. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    I didn't spend that much time in ST, but I did the tanking bear gig,
    backing up a paladin, when I did. Most of it was fine, but I got my ass
    kicked hard by the end boss dragons. We won, but it was damned close.

    Oh, and I got to tank UBRS on Saturday. That was something. I join a
    raid organized by another guild that ours is building a good
    relationship with. (For doing MC runs together and so forth) I join
    up, fully expecting to be a healer, and I see 3 priest a warrior and
    the paladin from my guild that invited me in the first place. So I
    leave on my feral gear and offer to tank instead. Things go reasonably
    well and we get to the General and his two henchmen. The warrior is to
    MT the general, the warlock fears one of the henchmen and I MT the one
    left over and the paladin helps me as MA. We take out the first
    henchman, I chase down the second one and halfway through that, the
    paladin dies. We get the 2nd henchman and I pop out of bear form, rez
    the paladin, go back down into bear and charge the General. The General
    kills the paladin and then me after I taunted the General off the
    warrior when he was close to going down himself. The warrior stays
    alive as the healers are (as they are supposed to) concentrating on
    keeing him alive. The General goes down and we had a successful raid.

    While I've seen UBRS runs that were more dominating, we had a good run
    and I was happy with how it went. Tanking in Baron and Scholo runs is
    MUCH easier. Short of anything in MC, I'm pretty sure the General is an
    order of magnitude more of an ass kicker than anything else in an
    instance.

    Regards,
    Noal

    --
    Dharzhak - Night Elf Druid (60) on Stormrage [PvE]
    Kemwer - Tauren Warrior (21) on Stormrage [PvE]
  19. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    "Alex" <assetsinc@hotmail.com> wrote:

    > Alex
    > The owner of a Druid who continues to out-tank every warrior they group
    > with, and a retired hunter :-)

    BTW: Yesterday, I did the armory in SM with a Warrior and a Shaman, who
    I happen to group with often. Even though we played very tactically, that
    means good pulling, exactly timed stuns etc, I've never seen the warrior
    immediatly pull a mob from the shaman (who did the healing).
    As druid in bear form, I currently have 2 abilities for doing this: One
    makes 1 single mob immediately attack me and doesn't cost any rage (and
    has a 10 seconds cooldoown), the other one makes alle nearby mobs
    immediately attack me, costs about 15 rage and is on a big cooldown.
    Don't warriors have anything like this, or do I just happen with
    warriors who don't use it? Would really confuse me...

    Chris

    --
    [WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (44) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (29) on DE Proudmoore [PvE]
  20. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    "Christian Stauffer" <wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
    news:4291c01d$0$1148$5402220f@news.sunrise.ch...
    > "Alex" <assetsinc@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    > > Alex
    > > The owner of a Druid who continues to out-tank every warrior they group
    > > with, and a retired hunter :-)
    >
    > BTW: Yesterday, I did the armory in SM with a Warrior and a Shaman, who
    > I happen to group with often. Even though we played very tactically, that
    > means good pulling, exactly timed stuns etc, I've never seen the warrior
    > immediatly pull a mob from the shaman (who did the healing).
    > As druid in bear form, I currently have 2 abilities for doing this: One
    > makes 1 single mob immediately attack me and doesn't cost any rage (and
    > has a 10 seconds cooldoown), the other one makes alle nearby mobs
    > immediately attack me, costs about 15 rage and is on a big cooldown.
    > Don't warriors have anything like this, or do I just happen with
    > warriors who don't use it? Would really confuse me...
    >


    Warriors get the single target taunt around level 10. I'm not sure when they
    get AE taunt, but I'm sure they get it at some point. Costs rage and has a
    big cooldown, etc. Taunt can only be used from defensive stance though. So
    I would guess that is what the problem is. They're probably trying to play
    in some other stance because they don't like the "-10% melee damage dealt"
    modifier on defensive.

    Sooner or later, they will probably have to learn that a tanks most important
    job is taking hits, not doing damage. If they were EQ veterans, they would
    know it already ;)

    --
    Davian / Dearic (Bloodhoof)

    "We need a new Mario game, where you rescue the princess in the first ten
    minutes, and for the rest of the game you try and push down that sick feeling
    in your stomach that she's "damaged goods"... When Peach asks you, in the
    quiet of her mushroom castle bedroom "do you still love me?" you pretend to be
    asleep. You press the A button rhythmically, to control your breath, keep it
    even." - Joey Comeau on increased realism in gaming.
  21. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    Would that work in a 5 man party in Scholomance? With casters casting
    silence and summoning mobs? Plus the additional dangers of runners?


    "Babe Bridou" <babebridou@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:1116852057.384492.64040@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...


    I've yet to really see the point in pulling tactics. From my (priestly)
    point of view, the best pulling tactic is to have someone do some kind
    of big AOE attack. That way all the mobs are in one place with one
    enemy that I can heal easily without having to worry about drawing
    aggro.

    A shaman is great for this. I've yet to see a better tank, even
    warriors couldn't compete. Chain Lightning/Fire Nova totem/magma
    totem/rockbiter while I heal, the hunter spams multishots, the warrior
    whirlwinds and demo shouts in berzerk stance, and the mage blizzards
    and cones of cold. The shaman is near certain to keep all mobs on him,
    and the fight ends quicker than my first time ;)

    Finesse is for sissies :P
  22. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    "Davian" <davian@nospammindspring.com> wrote:

    > Warriors get the single target taunt around level 10.

    Hrm, I should really play my level 16 warrior alt from time to time :)

    > I'm not sure when they
    > get AE taunt, but I'm sure they get it at some point. Costs rage and has a
    > big cooldown, etc. Taunt can only be used from defensive stance though. So
    > I would guess that is what the problem is. They're probably trying to play
    > in some other stance because they don't like the "-10% melee damage dealt"
    > modifier on defensive.

    Ah, thanks for the info. I didn't consider the stances thingie :-)

    > Sooner or later, they will probably have to learn that a tanks most important
    > job is taking hits, not doing damage. If they were EQ veterans, they would
    > know it already ;)

    The warrior I grouped with is not to blame, as he was 40 and I was 44.
    As it would've been hard for him to hold aggro, I did the pulling and main
    tanking anyway and it was a good decision from him to use aggressive or
    berserk stance, because we didn't have another dedicated damage dealer :o)

    Chris

    --
    [WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (44) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (29) on DE Proudmoore [PvE]
  23. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    <dharzhak@my-deja.com> wrote in message
    news:1116869838.571806.203760@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
    >> The owner of a Druid who continues to out-tank every warrior they
    >> group with, and a retired hunter :-)
    >
    > Yeah, uh huh. What level is this druid?
    >
    > In Dire Bear form I have over 9K amor self-buffed and a 15% crit rate
    > and even I'd prefer to let a Warrior be MT. Warriors have Block, Parry
    > and a host of other tools that make them better suited to the job.
    > Anyone playing a driuid that says they can out tank "every Warrior" is
    > just being an arrogant prick.
    >
    > I'm not saying we can't tank. We can and do it well, if (and only if)
    > we have the equipment for it. (Don't go thinking all that sta/int/spi
    > gear does you any good while tanking.) We're just better suited to MA
    > or 3rd tank (in raids) when we do.

    Yeah...took my alt hunter to Sunken Temple last night, with a
    rogue and 2 druids. We were a slightly higher-level than the
    dungeon, and the 2 druids switched out on tanking/healing. In
    a couple of places both tanked, switching out mid-fight (thank
    you for your sacrifice, pet).

    It was definately possible and fun. It was definately NOT as
    "efficient" as a warrior/healer combo. But then again, all of
    those are in BRD/BRS :-).
  24. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    "Babe Bridou" <babebridou@hotmail.com> wrote:

    > Of course not, I want to try, but they never let me :P

    I bet your guildmates would :o)

    > At least it would work a bit better than a Leeroy pull!

    /yell LLLLLEEEERRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYY

    I fell from the chair when someone yelled this yesterday while
    I was waiting for the zeppelin in Orgrimmar :o)

    Sometimes, when it occurs that I'm part of a raid, I use to do
    suicidal attacks when the frontiers are stuck (= no side makes
    a serious attempt to advance) and I spot a wounded target
    within the enemy troops: I run towards it, spamming moonfire
    and hoping he dies before I do. I guess LLLLEEERRROOOOYYYY will
    replace "FOR THE HORDE!" as my battlecry for stuff like this :)

    Chris

    --
    [WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (44) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (29) on DE Proudmoore [PvE]
  25. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    >>Then why did Blizzard make us the pulling class, huh?
    >
    > I'm sorry, but what exactly did Blizzard do to make Hunters
    > the pulling class besides saying "Hunters are the pulling
    > class!"?

    People would find their zen moment a lot sooner if they stopped
    listening to the BCMs. Those of us that came from D2 know better than
    to listen to anything that comes from them. Blizzard makes great games,
    but are gawd awful and telling people how to play them.

    The only saving grace of the hunter class is the Freezing Trap. No
    other class has a CC that can affect any type of mob. Beyond that, they
    have nothing that isn't duplicated elsewhere.

    Regards,
    Noal
  26. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    "collection2002" <linch9@gmail.com> wrote:
    > Christian Stauffer wrote:
    >
    > /snipe
    >
    >>
    >> The warrior I grouped with is not to blame, as he was 40 and I was
    > 44.
    >> As it would've been hard for him to hold aggro, I did the pulling and
    > main
    >> tanking anyway and it was a good decision from him to use aggressive
    > or
    >> berserk stance, because we didn't have another dedicated damage
    > dealer :o)
    >>
    >
    > Wrong, I have being doing SM as an 39 - 40th lvl warrior who had no
    > problem holding aggro.

    Ok :-) Let's say he didn't hold aggro, so I tanked, what made his
    decision to go aggressive/berserk ok in the end :)

    > Our group consisted of
    >
    > rogue
    > warrior
    > druid

    Ah, the unbeatable trio :)

    > It is harder to hold aggro in battle stance than in defense stance
    > because warrior only had challenge shout (that can be used in all
    > stances) which is an AoE with 10 minutes cool down. Like Christian
    > said, my warrior is in defense mode in the instance in order to use
    > taunt (10s cooldown).

    I see.

    > My tactic for holding a mobs after the pull is to use
    >
    > bloodrage -> taunt -> cleave -> disarm/sunder armor -> cleave -> repeat

    Looks quite like I do it: Pull with wrath + moonfire + fairie fire (the
    latter two are instants) -> Shift to bear -> demoralizing roar to grab
    aggro from those mobs i didn't harm yet, cleave to build up more aggro. I
    only use taunt if a mob attacks a clothwearer or a rogue.

    > Since I can hit up to 4 mobs with cleave, I have no trouble holding
    > their aggro.

    I figured that a while ago, too :-). And I have thorns on me (15 damage
    dealt when someone hits me), that's a good thing to build up hate too.

    Until about a month ago, I casted thorns on everyone in the party, just
    like I buffed them with MOTW. Then I read somewhere that thorns is not
    there to actually do damage, but to build up aggro, and I thought
    "damn, of course, why the hell didn't I figure that out by myself?".
    Since I cast thorns only on myself and the warrior(s), it made it a
    good piece easier to hold aggro :o)

    > Usually when the mob attacks spell caster, I can run over
    > to get its attention with
    >
    > taunt -> cleave -> disarm/sunder armor -> cleave -> repeat

    Taunt -> 5 seconds of hitting -> bash (that's usually enough to keep its
    attention for a while :)

    > which will add him to my group of mobs. If I can't run over, I usually
    > ask the spell caster to kite her mob over to where I am or have her
    > standing behind me. Then when her mob came in range, he will be cleaved
    > and joined the we-hate-warrior club.

    Hehe.

    > my warrior is a DW fury spec. He was able to build up rage quick
    > against the mob. Bloodrage helps to get a good kickstart since healer
    > is there to heal.

    Is bloodrage the skill that converts health to rage? I didn't even buy
    the druids representation of this ability, because I thought it's not
    very useful. Do you use it a lot? I guess I should give it a try,
    because my standard party is having more than enough healing power :)

    Chris

    --
    [WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (44) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (29) on DE Proudmoore [PvE]
  27. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    "wolfing" <wolfing1@yahoo.com> wrote:

    > Are you nuts? Guess you're talking about fighting murlocs near the
    > newbie area. Try that with elite groups at or around your level. You
    > REALLY want to pull them one or two at a time

    One or two at a time?? A good balanced team (both by classes, and by
    skills) is able to take down a minimum of 1 elite mob of their level
    PER MEMBER with no problem.

    And, as sick as babes strategy may sound,
    a) it kills like hell -> the faster the battle is over, the better
    b) it gives a near 100% certainity of not letting the healing draw
    aggro
    c) it involves tanking by a hunter (and his pet) and a shaman, both
    together should have enough armor/health to do the job that's
    usually done by one single warrior

    I don't think it's the safest or fastest (downtime!) way, but I
    guess it's a working (and funny) one.

    Chris

    --
    [WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (44) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (29) on DE Proudmoore [PvE]
  28. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    "El Durango" <El_Durango@yah00.c0m> wrote in
    news:j6cke.288$3D6.268@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com:

    >> A warrior may have to stand there and die, but the rogue should just
    >> hit vanish.
    >>
    > If they have the reagent needed, which they should.
    >
    > Regarding the main thread, I would say a pet in an instance should at
    > all times be in passive mode.

    Definitely - exactly what I do.

    > If the dungeon has multiple paths,
    > where a pet can go a different path, I would dismiss him and whistle
    > him back when needed.

    I do this too. But sometimes the pathing is just bad and your pet doesn't
    something stupid in a wide open room.


    --
    ~ Cyde Weys ~

    Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
    Aeria gloris, aeria gloris
  29. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    "Kevin C." <nomail@dot.com> wrote in news:Axfke.20130$J12.4092
    @newssvr14.news.prodigy.com:

    >
    > "Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
    > news:Xns965EA36762C772galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...
    >> It didn't help that I wasn't the puller.
    >
    > Hunters shouldn't pull. The fact that you insist on pulling reflects more
    > poorly on the class than anything else you did.

    Then why did Blizzard make us the pulling class, huh?


    --
    ~ Cyde Weys ~

    Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
    Aeria gloris, aeria gloris
  30. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    "Christian Stauffer" <wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote in news:4291e9dc$0$1151
    $5402220f@news.sunrise.ch:

    > "wolfing" <wolfing1@yahoo.com> wrote:
    >
    >> Are you nuts? Guess you're talking about fighting murlocs near the
    >> newbie area. Try that with elite groups at or around your level. You
    >> REALLY want to pull them one or two at a time
    >
    > One or two at a time?? A good balanced team (both by classes, and by
    > skills) is able to take down a minimum of 1 elite mob of their level
    > PER MEMBER with no problem.

    Yeah right! Try doing that in Dire Maul North. The biggest pull is four
    ogres and if you don't CC at least one you're almost guaranteed a wipe.


    --
    ~ Cyde Weys ~

    Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
    Aeria gloris, aeria gloris
  31. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    On Mon, 23 May 2005 19:03:24 GMT, Cyde Weys <cyde@umd.edu> scribed into the
    ether:

    >"Kevin C." <nomail@dot.com> wrote in news:Axfke.20130$J12.4092
    >@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com:
    >
    >>
    >> "Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
    >> news:Xns965EA36762C772galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...
    >>> It didn't help that I wasn't the puller.
    >>
    >> Hunters shouldn't pull. The fact that you insist on pulling reflects more
    >> poorly on the class than anything else you did.
    >
    >Then why did Blizzard make us the pulling class, huh?

    I'm sorry, but what exactly did Blizzard do to make Hunters the pulling
    class besides saying "Hunters are the pulling class!"?

    Nothing, that's what. There was a period of a few weeks when Hunters really
    could pull. You could combine Feign Death with Frost Trap to break linked
    spawns in instances. I practiced at it extensively in BRD, and I could
    reliably seperate out 1-2 dwarves from those parade ground spawns of 10.
    But that got nerfed.
  32. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    "Brian" <brianmcadam@pobox.com> wrote in message
    news:13a4911i2q8pm637liplj3o2qsqv73vg2l@4ax.com...

    > So I have to *work* to get aggro. If the mage does a sheep-pull, he's
    > highest on the hate list for all the mobs. Which means I have to work
    > that
    > much harder to keep him alive. If the Hunter pulls, and it gets ugly, he
    > can Feign, and lose all (or almost all) of the hate that he had.

    AFAIK It's a pretty simple recipe: There is a circumference around the mobs
    dictating their aggro range and any other mobs that pass through that circle
    are aggroed as well. Except for wandering mobs it's /obvious/ which mobs are
    going to come with their annoyed friend. The time when a mage/rogue should
    pull is when there is a caster involved that is immediately going to summon
    something or silence a Paladin (Scholomance, Stratholme, etc). The time when
    a Warrior should pull is when there is a mob or collection of mobs with a
    non-casting damage effect, or a bunch of non-elites that need a good AOE
    session from the mage.. A good time for a hunter to pull is either when they
    want to exploit the Evade "expoit" if they dare, or to hit a caster from a
    distance and scoot round a corner to force the casters to come to the party
    for a shield bashing or a sleeping. But the best time is when someone else
    has already pulled and they re-pull one of the mobs away into a trap as CC.

    There is no guarantee Feign is going to work, unfortunately. Sure, the
    hunter can take the hit and accept a rez, but it's expensive and pointless.
    IMO Hunters really are best at sustained damage, crowd control and
    off-tanking and that's it. Trying to be something else that we don't have
    the facilities to be is desperate.

    What it would be nice to have is a decent pulling shot. Something that only
    we can use to seperate mobs, to draw individual mobs near, away from their
    mates. It would make us invaluable. But we don't and the game isn't designed
    to allow anyonr to do that, aside from the previously mentioned exploit bug
    which many hunters don't know about, is dangerous and probably considered
    illegal by Blizzard.
  33. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    Christian Stauffer wrote:
    >
    > > Doing SM make me realize how annoy pally is with their 3x heal.
    Yes, I
    > > heard and read about it. But never really experience it until the
    SM.
    >
    > Hehe. As I said, we worked quite good together on them. As soon as
    they
    > tried to heal themselves, either the shaman purged them or I or the
    > warrior stunned them. Works well with mages, too :)
    >

    You or warrior stunned them, how does the warrior stun it? I can't
    believe that I have overlooked that skill/talent. Wait, unless you mean
    that Daze Shout (not sure the name, but the effect is that the shout
    will stun nearby opponents for 6 or 4 seconds) from warrior's fury
    talent, then I'm still working toward it.
  34. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    Christian Stauffer a écrit :
    > "collection2002" <linch9@gmail.com> wrote:
    >
    > > You or warrior stunned them
    >
    > I have bash, 2 seconds stun in bear form, 1 minute cooldown.
    >
    > > how does the warrior stun it? I can't
    > > believe that I have overlooked that skill/talent. Wait, unless you
    mean
    > > that Daze Shout (not sure the name, but the effect is that the
    shout
    > > will stun nearby opponents for 6 or 4 seconds) from warrior's fury
    > > talent, then I'm still working toward it.
    >
    > As the warrior was a tauren, it could be he used his racial ability,
    > which stuns all nearby enemies for a second or two. Although I'm
    quite
    > sure he used another talent.
    >
    > Chris

    Three warrior talents stun:
    _Concussive blow (require 20 in protection) = next melee (instant on
    test realms), stun for 5 secs, 45secs cooldown, 15 rage
    _Improved Revenge (require 10 in protection) = gives Revenge a 40%
    chance to stun for 3 seconds.
    _Mace specialization (require 20 in arms) = your attacks have up to 6%
    chance to stun for 3 seconds.
  35. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    Babe Bridou wrote:
    >
    > Three warrior talents stun:
    > _Concussive blow (require 20 in protection) = next melee (instant on
    > test realms), stun for 5 secs, 45secs cooldown, 15 rage
    > _Improved Revenge (require 10 in protection) = gives Revenge a 40%
    > chance to stun for 3 seconds.
    > _Mace specialization (require 20 in arms) = your attacks have up to
    6%
    > chance to stun for 3 seconds.

    merci vraiment

    Woot, I have to build up 2 more warriors to specialize in other talents
    tree. Ha, I thought the stun from Mace specialization was a Rogue only
    talent. But now that I know, I have to build myself a dual-mace
    wielding human specialized in arms and a dwarf human specialized in
    protection.

    is it 5 o'clock yet?
  36. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    <dharzhak@my-deja.com> wrote:

    >> Is bloodrage the skill that converts health to rage? I didn't
    >> even buy the druids representation of this ability, because
    >> I thought it's not very useful.
    >
    > *blink*
    >
    > It's not useful if you're never in bear form. If you are, it's mission
    > critical. Hell, since ours just slightly lowers armor temporarily, it's
    > arguably even better than the warrrior's one.

    Now that sound like I should get my hairy ass to TB and buy it ASAP. Pity
    I only have 25s atm and owe 7g to a guildmate :-) Thanks for the advice!

    > No rage = no bash, no maul, no taunt, no feral charge, no discouraging
    > roar and especially no regeneration.

    With talents + gear, I get 15 rage when shifting to bear form. That's why
    I regularly shift in & out in battle. But I guess that bloodrage thingie
    is something I really should have.

    > Without rage, you might as well
    > just stand there and whack them with a stick.

    That's what I'm doing when I'm not in bear form :o)

    Chris

    --
    [WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (45) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (29) on DE Proudmoore [PvE]
  37. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    <dharzhak@my-deja.com> wrote in message
    news:1116869838.571806.203760@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
    >> The owner of a Druid who continues to out-tank every warrior they
    >> group with, and a retired hunter :-)
    >
    > Yeah, uh huh. What level is this druid?
    >
    > In Dire Bear form I have over 9K amor self-buffed and a 15% crit rate
    > and even I'd prefer to let a Warrior be MT. Warriors have Block, Parry
    > and a host of other tools that make them better suited to the job.
    > Anyone playing a driuid that says they can out tank "every Warrior" is
    > just being an arrogant prick.
    >
    > I'm not saying we can't tank. We can and do it well, if (and only if)
    > we have the equipment for it. (Don't go thinking all that sta/int/spi
    > gear does you any good while tanking.) We're just better suited to MA
    > or 3rd tank (in raids) when we do.
    >
    > Regards,
    > Noal
    >
    > --
    > Dharzhak - Night Elf Druid (60) on Stormrage [PvE]
    >

    Ah, you miss understand me, I'm not being an "arrogant prick", I just have
    never found a player that, at my lvl (46), can actually tank. By this I mean
    gather up the enemies, keep them aggro'ed and stop them pounding the cloth.
    It's players who fail in this role, not the class. I FULLY understand that a
    warrior who knows his stuff will out tank me, I've just yet to find one :-)

    I'd rather heal, but with a warrior who can't tank, I've invariable got a
    mob is my face seconds later. May as well leave the warrior in battle mode
    and do it myself, that way I'm the only one who needs healing, and I can do
    that myself.

    Alex
  38. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    "collection2002" <linch9@gmail.com> wrote:

    > Christian Stauffer wrote:
    >> >
    >> > Wrong, I have being doing SM as an 39 - 40th lvl warrior who had no
    >> > problem holding aggro.
    >>
    >> Ok :-) Let's say he didn't hold aggro, so I tanked, what made his
    >> decision to go aggressive/berserk ok in the end :)
    >>
    >
    > How big is your group? Do you have another healer?

    We had a healing specced shaman, who did the healing.

    When I want to deal damage, I either nuke (which is dangerous in
    such a small party because a decreased mana pool means less reserves
    for emergencies) or shift to bear. And when I'm in bear form, there
    is no real need for the warrior to do a lot of tanking. So it was
    good he increased the damage output by going aggressive :)

    > Though it is understand that warrior goes defensive stance in
    > instances, if you and the warrior have been working together before and
    > know what parts to play, then it work well too.

    Indeed :)

    > Doing SM make me realize how annoy pally is with their 3x heal. Yes, I
    > heard and read about it. But never really experience it until the SM.

    Hehe. As I said, we worked quite good together on them. As soon as they
    tried to heal themselves, either the shaman purged them or I or the
    warrior stunned them. Works well with mages, too :)

    > Good point, I forget to mention the use of Demoralizing Shout because
    > it only worked 50% of the time in the instance, not a sure bet like
    > taunt or cleave.

    Hrm... I never found it not working yet, I'll keep an eye on it in the
    future.

    > Another good point, thanks for pointing it out, I need to let my druid
    > know about this. We are so used to buff everyone with the Mark of the
    > Wild & Thorn automatically upon enter an instance.

    Yeah, I used to do the same. Now I only give thorns to those who are
    supposed to tank.

    >> Taunt -> 5 seconds of hitting -> bash (that's usually enough to keep
    > its
    >> attention for a while :)
    >>
    >
    > then it lost interests on you and focused on the rogue, how rude. :-)

    Depends :o) When people follow my advice and all of them hit the same
    mob, it's no problem for me to keep the other ones on me using cleave.
    If everyone picks a mob on his own, it's nearly impossible.

    >> Is bloodrage the skill that converts health to rage? I didn't even
    > buy
    >> the druids representation of this ability, because I thought it's not
    >> very useful. Do you use it a lot? I guess I should give it a try,
    >> because my standard party is having more than enough healing power :)
    >
    > Yes. I used bloodrage a lot in defense mode because it quickly gives
    > you enough rages to get off that first cleave within 5 sec of battle.
    > And once, everyone start hitting on you, its easy to get rages points
    > :-)

    Ok, I'll buy it the next time I'm in Thunderbluff. Thanks!

    Chris

    --
    [WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (45) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (29) on DE Proudmoore [PvE]
  39. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    "Alex" <assetsinc@hotmail.com> wrote:

    > Ah, you miss understand me, I'm not being an "arrogant prick", I just have
    > never found a player that, at my lvl (46), can actually tank. By this I mean
    > gather up the enemies, keep them aggro'ed and stop them pounding the cloth.
    > It's players who fail in this role, not the class. I FULLY understand that a
    > warrior who knows his stuff will out tank me, I've just yet to find one :-)
    >
    > I'd rather heal, but with a warrior who can't tank, I've invariable got a
    > mob is my face seconds later. May as well leave the warrior in battle mode
    > and do it myself, that way I'm the only one who needs healing, and I can do
    > that myself.

    Sad but true. I made the exactly same experience so far. I did armory
    yesterday to help a 36 and a 38 warrior getting some stuff from herod. A 40
    shamen joined us. I switched to my healer gear and focused on healing and
    support. The 36 warrior, even though 8 levels beyond me, was the 1st warrior
    I met so far who watched my back and pulled the enemies away from me when
    I took too much aggro. And he even succeeded by using taunts and stuff.
    I've never seen a warrior using taunts before. And I can't count the times I
    did the SM instances with pickup groups.

    Chris

    --
    [WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (45) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (29) on DE Proudmoore [PvE]
  40. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    "collection2002" <linch9@gmail.com> wrote:

    > You or warrior stunned them

    I have bash, 2 seconds stun in bear form, 1 minute cooldown.

    > how does the warrior stun it? I can't
    > believe that I have overlooked that skill/talent. Wait, unless you mean
    > that Daze Shout (not sure the name, but the effect is that the shout
    > will stun nearby opponents for 6 or 4 seconds) from warrior's fury
    > talent, then I'm still working toward it.

    As the warrior was a tauren, it could be he used his racial ability,
    which stuns all nearby enemies for a second or two. Although I'm quite
    sure he used another talent.

    Chris

    --
    [WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (45) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
    Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (29) on DE Proudmoore [PvE]
  41. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    > Every time I've tried to do Tribute, the main tank got MS'd, and
    > the healer couldn't cope with the spike. Main Tank down, and
    > we wipe.

    The tank needs to be a Protection Specced warrior with Last Stand to
    pull through easily. That said, the Priest can slap a Power Word:
    Shield on the tank and then start cranking out the jams. The druid has
    to try to fight thorugh it and battle rez the warrior if he fails. If
    you're repeatedly wiping, there's a problem that needs to be addressed.

    > The worst I've ever seen, though, was War Master Voone, in LBRS.
    > MS for 3k, Throw Axe for 1700, back to back.

    Crits do happen.

    > I'm sorry, I don't *have* 4700 HP

    That's a problem and it should be addressed. When I'm in my tanking
    gear, I have 9K+ armor and about 4900 HPs. I can make some gear swaps
    and give up about 1K armor for another ~750 HPs. Warriors and Paladins
    should be around 7K armor in sheild & 1H and have at least 5K HPs at
    level 60. Tanking is all about gear and player skill.

    As for the aforementioned group of 3 druids & 2 rogues, that really
    depends on being specced (balance Druids need not apply) & geared
    properly (new 60s should be doing raids instances on the other
    continent) and making proper use of the 3 available battle rezzes
    (healer rezzes a fallen tank and drops to bear while the fallen tank
    comes up and heals).

    Regards,
    Noal
  42. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    Doc wrote:
    > collection2002 <linch9@gmail.com> stared blankly into space for a
    > short while before writing:
    > > Woot, I have to build up 2 more warriors to specialize in other
    > > talents tree. Ha, I thought the stun from Mace specialization was a
    > > Rogue only talent. But now that I know, I have to build myself a
    > > dual-mace wielding human specialized in arms and a dwarf human
    > > specialized in protection.
    >
    > A Dwarf Human?
    >
    > CRIKEY!
    >

    What? You haven't read Babe's post about the RP in his PvP realm? Such
    a n00b :-)

    okay, technically, dwarf warrior, er, no time for logic check when ???
    boss come down the aisle.
  43. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    geronimo wrote:

    > you're saying that a class that can pull from a distance, wears mail, can
    > mark a target for all to see, have a CC that affect every mob, have 2
    > distinct way to reduce aggro, have feign death to abort a bad pull... should
    > not pull !?
    >
    > Please tell me who should pull then, and WHY ?

    x2!!!

    (Yay for useful forum-style posts!!!)
  44. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    geronimo a écrit :
    > "Kevin C." <nomail@dot.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
    > Axfke.20130$J12.4092@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
    > >
    > > "Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
    > > news:Xns965EA36762C772galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...
    > > > It didn't help that I wasn't the puller.
    > >
    > > Hunters shouldn't pull. The fact that you insist on pulling reflects more
    > > poorly on the class than anything else you did.
    > >
    >
    > you're saying that a class that can pull from a distance, wears mail, can
    > mark a target for all to see, have a CC that affect every mob, have 2
    > distinct way to reduce aggro, have feign death to abort a bad pull... should
    > not pull !?
    >
    > Please tell me who should pull then, and WHY ?

    The Hunter, then the warrior. There's no reason to not allow the hunter
    to pull.

    The Hunter pulls well away from the group, if the pull is successfull
    (only 4 mobs for example, with one being frozen), the warrior charges,
    the hunter and pet disengage/cower, warrior builds aggro. Two distinct
    pulls, one to separate mob clusters, one to build rage and aggro. I
    don't see any argument that beat that one. Exceptions are:
    instances/fights that don't require any kind of safe-pull (waste of
    time to pull in two phases) and instances/fights that would be better
    dealt with a sap opener.

    A bit off-topic, but my favourite leeroy pull is still mind control.
  45. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    collection2002 <linch9@gmail.com> stared blankly into space for a
    short while before writing:
    > Woot, I have to build up 2 more warriors to specialize in other
    > talents tree. Ha, I thought the stun from Mace specialization was a
    > Rogue only talent. But now that I know, I have to build myself a
    > dual-mace wielding human specialized in arms and a dwarf human
    > specialized in protection.

    A Dwarf Human?

    CRIKEY!

    --
    Doc
    Save the Earth, it's the only planet with beer...
  46. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    "Kevin C." <nomail@dot.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
    Axfke.20130$J12.4092@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
    >
    > "Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
    > news:Xns965EA36762C772galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...
    > > It didn't help that I wasn't the puller.
    >
    > Hunters shouldn't pull. The fact that you insist on pulling reflects more
    > poorly on the class than anything else you did.
    >

    you're saying that a class that can pull from a distance, wears mail, can
    mark a target for all to see, have a CC that affect every mob, have 2
    distinct way to reduce aggro, have feign death to abort a bad pull... should
    not pull !?

    Please tell me who should pull then, and WHY ?
  47. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    "Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
    news:Xns965EA36762C772galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...
    > So I was playing really tired last night in a 5-man on Scholomance and I
    > wasn't on the top of my game. I see now why hunters have a bad
    > reputation. It's very hard to do everything right and it's very easy to
    > do one thing wrong when it comes to playing as a hunter. Here are some
    > examples:
    >
    > 1) We are bypassing a group of mobs and the pet takes the long way
    > around, aggroing mobs. We wipe.
    > 2) We're fighting some mobs and the pet gets feared into another group
    > of mobs. We wipe. They were inclined to blame my pet, but it was
    > really more the fault of us not using the proper pulling strategies (we
    > know what enemies fear, we should engage them somewhere safe).
    > 3) The pet gets feared into more enemies and we don't wipe, but it was
    > close. Evidently we didn't learn the lesson of #2.

    I dont know why they dont just do what everquest (eventually) did and make
    pets faction neutral to all mobs.


    > 4) The pet chases a fleeing human into a group of more enemies. We
    > wipe. See #2 again.

    Someone on snares forget to do their job? One way to avoid this is to pull
    the mobs well back so you give yourself plenty of room for runners.
  48. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    On Wed, 25 May 2005 14:41:50 +0200, "geronimo" <toto@lulu.com> scribed into
    the ether:

    >
    >"Kevin C." <nomail@dot.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
    >Axfke.20130$J12.4092@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
    >>
    >> "Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
    >> news:Xns965EA36762C772galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...
    >> > It didn't help that I wasn't the puller.
    >>
    >> Hunters shouldn't pull. The fact that you insist on pulling reflects more
    >> poorly on the class than anything else you did.
    >>
    >
    >you're saying that a class that can pull from a distance,

    Something every class but Paladin (and even them, with trinkets) can do.

    Meaningless.

    > wears mail,

    Which is tissue paper compared to plate, and Hunters get no shield like
    Shamans do to compensate.

    Meaningless.

    > can mark a target for all to see,

    A lovely tool for enhanced team coordination, but has nothing to do with
    the actual act of pulling.

    Meaningless.

    >have a CC that affect every mob,

    Which doesn't require that the hunter himself do the pulling. Freeze trap
    works equally well no matter who pulls. Actually, in review, I take that
    back...it is actually *better* if someone else pulls, because the lack of
    auto-shot for warriors means that they won't hit a frozen mob and break the
    CC early the way others can accidently do.

    Meaningless.

    >have 2 distinct way to reduce aggro,

    Neither of which are all that great, nor foolproof (the way say, a rogue
    using Vanish is), and nothing in the entire arsenal actually fulfills the
    term "pulling" as a term of art rather than the dictionary definition:
    There is no way for a Hunter (or anyone else) to pull a single out of a
    linked pack.

    Meaningless.

    >have feign death to abort a bad pull...

    Feign Death fails a lot. Every mob in the "bad pull" increases the
    likelihood that it will fail. If it fails against one, it fails against
    all. Further, "bad pulls" are player issues, not character ones. With
    linked spawns, there is not such thing as a bad pull, there are
    just...pulls. The player issue is one of bad timing or stupidity; people
    AFK, a roamer too close to the group you are pulling and you get the roamer
    too, pulling while still fighting something else, pulling while low on
    hp/mana or key spells are in cooldown, etc. None of which are in any way
    related to being a Hunter.

    Meaningless.

    > should not pull !?

    Correct.

    >Please tell me who should pull then, and WHY ?

    Warrior/Paladin, because they are going to end up with the aggro anyway, so
    why not cut out the middleman? Initial aggro has more meaning than other
    aggro does. Having someone else with aggro makes the job of capturing (and
    keeping) that aggro that much more difficult for the person who is supposed
    to have it. Hunter pulling means hunter taking damage, which means wasting
    healer time, targeting, and mana healing someone who shouldn't need it.
    Hunters take WAAAAAY more damage than a Warrior/Paladin does on any given
    hit, both in the absolute sense and as a fraction of total hp.

    Hunter pulling also means mobs put into melee range of hunter, which means
    hunter NOT SHOOTING STUFF, which means substantially reduced DPS, which
    means stuff lives longer, which puts whole party at risk.

    Hunters have a number of ways to greatly facilitate pulling, and to keep
    the group safe. Hunter's Mark, your pet, Freeze Trap, these are all
    extremely powerful tools when properly utilized. They do not, however, turn
    Hunters into pullers, no matter what Blizzard has to say on the issue.
  49. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    > the druid or a paly is doing the tanking, you have a point,
    > because they can't charge

    Feral Specced druids can charge. It's an 11 point talent. However, it's
    closer to the warrior's intercept. It costs 5 rage, is usable in
    combat, interrupts casting and movement for 4 seconds and has a 15
    second cooldown. You can use it to charge into a group, but it's better
    suited for attacking a caster that already has aggro or catching
    runners.

    In higher instances such as UBRS & Strath, I rarely see warriors
    charge. Usually pulling is done by warrior using a bow or gun or a mage
    casting sheep, a priest casting shackle or a druid casting hibernate on
    a key mob,

    > The problem with the "hunter shouldn't pull" crowd is that they don't
    > really understand what pulling is. Pulling is bringing the mobs to the
    > group, in a safe place where you don't need to worry about patrols,
    > or fleeing mobs bringing more adds

    No, we do get it. We're saying that you don't need a hunter to do it. I
    can do a Starfire/Moonfire/drop to Bear Form just as easily as I can
    shoot a mob with a bow as a Warrior.

    > Unless you insist to to the "Leroy" type of pull, warriors can't pull
    > AND charge, and that means 15-21 rage lost. if you let the hunter
    > pull, then charge, you can use this rage to build REAL aggro.

    No different than a sheep, shackle, hibernate pull except you haven't
    removed a mob from the pack. In fact, this is no different than a rogue
    pulling. Look, I know the Hunter brochure said you're the pulling
    class, but really, your pulling isn't a big deal. It doesn't make you
    an invaluable part of the team. I have never been in a group of any
    size that said, "Hey! We need a hunter for pulling!"

    Your one thing you can point to and say, "This is what makes us
    unique!" is Freezing Trap. No other class has a CC that can hit
    anything. If I have an open slot to fill and if I choose to fill it
    with a hunter versus any other class, that would be why. Certainly not
    because you can shoot things and absolutely not because of your pet.

    Regards,
    Noal
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