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I see why hunters have such a bad reputation

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Anonymous
May 23, 2005 12:03:56 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

So I was playing really tired last night in a 5-man on Scholomance and I
wasn't on the top of my game. I see now why hunters have a bad
reputation. It's very hard to do everything right and it's very easy to
do one thing wrong when it comes to playing as a hunter. Here are some
examples:

1) We are bypassing a group of mobs and the pet takes the long way
around, aggroing mobs. We wipe.
2) We're fighting some mobs and the pet gets feared into another group
of mobs. We wipe. They were inclined to blame my pet, but it was
really more the fault of us not using the proper pulling strategies (we
know what enemies fear, we should engage them somewhere safe).
3) The pet gets feared into more enemies and we don't wipe, but it was
close. Evidently we didn't learn the lesson of #2.
4) The pet chases a fleeing human into a group of more enemies. We
wipe. See #2 again.
5) I get to close to a group of enemies when setting up my trap and
aggro them. We wipe.

.... see a pattern here? 5-man Scholomance is very dangerous and if you
don't do everything just right, you're toast. You have to be in control
of your pet from second to second and watch him very carefully to make
sure he isn't chasing down a fleeing mob. In my tired state, I was
actually sort of drifting in and out, and would find myself sitting
there pounding autoshot for awhile while I took a mental break. You may
think I should've quit the group at this point, but they were inclined
to keep me because, at that time, there was really no one else around.

It didn't help that I wasn't the puller. Being the puller is my one
chance to shine. Of course, I was putting down traps and such, and the
warrior (or rogue if we were fighting humanoids) was trying his best to
bring the enemies across the freezing traps. But I like pulling because
I know how my pet is going to react and I know how far back we should be
when fighting mobs. Also, if I get a bad pull I can at least attempt to
feign death to save myself without wiping the party ... a warrior or
rogue just has to stand there and die.

So, in summary, I believe I did a bit of damage to my class last night.
By the end I just didn't have the pet out at all because it didn't seem
worth the risk. But that furry fella is a good 25% of my DPS, and not
using him gimps me.

--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris

More about : hunters bad reputation

Anonymous
May 23, 2005 12:03:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
news:Xns965EA36762C772galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...

> It didn't help that I wasn't the puller. Being the puller is my one
> chance to shine. Of course, I was putting down traps and such, and the
> warrior (or rogue if we were fighting humanoids) was trying his best to
> bring the enemies across the freezing traps. But I like pulling because
> I know how my pet is going to react and I know how far back we should be
> when fighting mobs. Also, if I get a bad pull I can at least attempt to
> feign death to save myself without wiping the party ... a warrior or
> rogue just has to stand there and die.
>

A warrior may have to stand there and die, but the rogue should just hit
vanish.

--
Davian / Dearic (Bloodhoof)

"We need a new Mario game, where you rescue the princess in the first ten
minutes, and for the rest of the game you try and push down that sick feeling
in your stomach that she's "damaged goods"... When Peach asks you, in the
quiet of her mushroom castle bedroom "do you still love me?" you pretend to be
asleep. You press the A button rhythmically, to control your breath, keep it
even." - Joey Comeau on increased realism in gaming.
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 1:17:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
news:Xns965EA36762C772galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...
> It didn't help that I wasn't the puller. Being the puller is my one
> chance to shine. Of course, I was putting down traps and such, and the
> warrior (or rogue if we were fighting humanoids) was trying his best to
> bring the enemies across the freezing traps. But I like pulling because
> I know how my pet is going to react and I know how far back we should be
> when fighting mobs. Also, if I get a bad pull I can at least attempt to
> feign death to save myself without wiping the party ... a warrior or
> rogue just has to stand there and die.

I never pull in Scholo. What I do do is set a trap away from the party, mark
who I'm going to freeze and pull them out of the pack into the trap (outof
AOE range ideally) after the tank has pulled (or usually the Pallie in
Scholo). Maybe set another trap for when he's out and then get assisting. My
pet won't be let off the leash until I know that another offtank is needed
or when I know the mob under fire isn't going anywhere due to
hamstring/concussion shot. Even if I do send him in, my mouse is usually
hovering over the stay or follow command while the autshot does its thing.

It's not particular to Scholo. Any 5 man instance, Dire Maul for example,
requires a class as flexible and multi-tasking as a hunter to be on his/her
toes.
Related resources
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 6:49:28 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"porl" <porlp@btinternet.com> wrote in
news:3fc7m1F72qabU1@individual.net:

>
> "Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
> news:Xns965EA36762C772galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...
>> It didn't help that I wasn't the puller. Being the puller is my one
>> chance to shine. Of course, I was putting down traps and such, and
>> the warrior (or rogue if we were fighting humanoids) was trying his
>> best to bring the enemies across the freezing traps. But I like
>> pulling because I know how my pet is going to react and I know how
>> far back we should be when fighting mobs. Also, if I get a bad pull
>> I can at least attempt to feign death to save myself without wiping
>> the party ... a warrior or rogue just has to stand there and die.
>
> I never pull in Scholo. What I do do is set a trap away from the
> party, mark who I'm going to freeze and pull them out of the pack into
> the trap (outof AOE range ideally) after the tank has pulled (or
> usually the Pallie in Scholo). Maybe set another trap for when he's
> out and then get assisting. My pet won't be let off the leash until I
> know that another offtank is needed or when I know the mob under fire
> isn't going anywhere due to hamstring/concussion shot. Even if I do
> send him in, my mouse is usually hovering over the stay or follow
> command while the autshot does its thing.

Yeah, I guess I really just need to be more careful about my pet. When
they let me pull it always goes a lot better. When I'm pulling I feel
that I'm in control and I get to control the pace of the encounters. I
don't get nearly as bored and I don't fool around as much. I get to
control where we fight the enemies, and keeping my pet in mind, I've
never had a problem with a pet chasing an enemy or getting feared and
aggroing more mobs.

Hrrmm, I think I've figured it out. When I pull, everything seems to go
well. The people I regularly group with know as much and let me pull.
The recent problems I've had in Scholomance was because our puller
wasn't having us stand far enough back, and thus we were getting pet
edge effects. I need to pay more attention next time I'm not pulling
and make sure they fight the encounters in the correct location.

> It's not particular to Scholo. Any 5 man instance, Dire Maul for
> example, requires a class as flexible and multi-tasking as a hunter to
> be on his/her toes.

I never had a problem with my pet in Dire Maul. Those guys don't fear
or run away, though. And the groups of mobs are better separated. I
always pull in Dire Maul. In Scholomance, there's enough humanoid
enemies that rogues need to pull for sapping purposes.


--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 7:29:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

> A warrior may have to stand there and die, but the rogue should just hit
> vanish.
>
If they have the reagent needed, which they should.

Regarding the main thread, I would say a pet in an instance should at all
times be in passive mode. If the dungeon has multiple paths, where a pet
can go a different path, I would dismiss him and whistle him back when
needed.
And regarding your pet chasing a mob and aggroing more, I would place ice
traps in between mobs so if one is fleeing towards another mob area they can
be held there.
I really don't know about this dungeon, but it should work the same.
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 9:40:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

porl a écrit :
> "Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
> news:Xns965EE829B4FAE2galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...
> > I never had a problem with my pet in Dire Maul. Those guys don't
fear
> > or run away, though. And the groups of mobs are better separated.
I
> > always pull in Dire Maul. In Scholomance, there's enough humanoid
> > enemies that rogues need to pull for sapping purposes.
>
> I don't really know why you insist on pulling. Apart from feign death
(which
> isn't a guaranteed get out) there's no advantage in a hunter pulling
> especially in a tight area like Scholomance where you're unlikely to
need to
> utilise a 41 yard range. A warrior throwing a brick will aggro the
required
> mobs just the same and it's pretty easy to know which other mobs are
going
> to come along as well.
>
> You're much more likley to want the Mage to pull by sheeping a caster
or
> silence, the rogue to pull by sapping or the warrior to pull by
charging and
> shield bashing a caster when the other two aren't available, or a
warlock to
> banish or a Druid to sleep (in UBRS for instance).
>
> I used to believe the myth that hunters were the natural pullers, and
insist
> on doing it, but I got over it and almost never do it now. I do
sometimes
> pull from the mobs the warrior pulled, but that's with the
understanding of
> the party for CC purposes.

I've yet to really see the point in pulling tactics. From my (priestly)
point of view, the best pulling tactic is to have someone do some kind
of big AOE attack. That way all the mobs are in one place with one
enemy that I can heal easily without having to worry about drawing
aggro.

A shaman is great for this. I've yet to see a better tank, even
warriors couldn't compete. Chain Lightning/Fire Nova totem/magma
totem/rockbiter while I heal, the hunter spams multishots, the warrior
whirlwinds and demo shouts in berzerk stance, and the mage blizzards
and cones of cold. The shaman is near certain to keep all mobs on him,
and the fight ends quicker than my first time ;) 

Finesse is for sissies :p 
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 10:15:04 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Christian Stauffer wrote:

/snipe

>
> The warrior I grouped with is not to blame, as he was 40 and I was
44.
> As it would've been hard for him to hold aggro, I did the pulling and
main
> tanking anyway and it was a good decision from him to use aggressive
or
> berserk stance, because we didn't have another dedicated damage
dealer :o )
>

Wrong, I have being doing SM as an 39 - 40th lvl warrior who had no
problem holding aggro.

Our group consisted of

rogue
warrior
druid

It is harder to hold aggro in battle stance than in defense stance
because warrior only had challenge shout (that can be used in all
stances) which is an AoE with 10 minutes cool down. Like Christian
said, my warrior is in defense mode in the instance in order to use
taunt (10s cooldown).

My tactic for holding a mobs after the pull is to use

bloodrage -> taunt -> cleave -> disarm/sunder armor -> cleave -> repeat

Since I can hit up to 4 mobs with cleave, I have no trouble holding
their aggro. Usually when the mob attacks spell caster, I can run over
to get its attention with

taunt -> cleave -> disarm/sunder armor -> cleave -> repeat


which will add him to my group of mobs. If I can't run over, I usually
ask the spell caster to kite her mob over to where I am or have her
standing behind me. Then when her mob came in range, he will be cleaved
and joined the we-hate-warrior club.

my warrior is a DW fury spec. He was able to build up rage quick
against the mob. Bloodrage helps to get a good kickstart since healer
is there to heal.
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 10:34:24 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

porl a écrit :
> Would that work in a 5 man party in Scholomance? With casters casting

> silence and summoning mobs? Plus the additional dangers of runners?
>

Of course not, I want to try, but they never let me :p 

At least it would work a bit better than a Leeroy pull!
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 10:55:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

I mean Davian, when I mentioned Christian in my post about warrior
using defensive stance in instances.

mea culpa
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 11:05:28 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Are you nuts? Guess you're talking about fighting murlocs near the
newbie area. Try that with elite groups at or around your level. You
REALLY want to pull them one or two at a time
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 11:23:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
news:Xns965EA36762C772galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...
> It didn't help that I wasn't the puller.

Hunters shouldn't pull. The fact that you insist on pulling reflects more
poorly on the class than anything else you did.
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 11:46:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

wolfing wrote:
> Are you nuts? Guess you're talking about fighting murlocs near the
> newbie area. Try that with elite groups at or around your level. You
> REALLY want to pull them one or two at a time

Why pull one or two at a time when you can pull 5 or 6 together and
still win in the approximate same amount of time?

I'm serious up to a certain point, of course. Up to and including
Zul'Farak, actually. I play holy priest, and I'm bored with shooting
the wand and finishing fights with 95% of my mana (in case of a "bad"
pull or patrol) while every other caster drinks, that's the point. So
bring it on, pull them all, much quicker, and much more fun for
everyone, just make sure everybody use area of effect attacks like
crazy :) 
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 11:57:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Christian Stauffer a écrit :
> "wolfing" <wolfing1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Are you nuts? Guess you're talking about fighting murlocs near the
> > newbie area. Try that with elite groups at or around your level.
You
> > REALLY want to pull them one or two at a time
>
> One or two at a time?? A good balanced team (both by classes, and by
> skills) is able to take down a minimum of 1 elite mob of their level
> PER MEMBER with no problem.
>
> And, as sick as babes strategy may sound,
> a) it kills like hell -> the faster the battle is over, the better
> b) it gives a near 100% certainity of not letting the healing draw
> aggro

I vote b) for the win, but that's just me!

> c) it involves tanking by a hunter (and his pet) and a shaman, both
> together should have enough armor/health to do the job that's
> usually done by one single warrior

Errr... I never talked about the pet ;) 

Nah, the pet should just be on eye of the beast exploring around and
pulling the remaining monsters in the instance :) 


> I don't think it's the safest or fastest (downtime!) way, but I
> guess it's a working (and funny) one.
>
> Chris

Well, downtime is better. I think. Because when the mage needs to
drink, so does the priest, the druid, etc, even the warrior needs a
drink or two to relax. So you get one full downtime instead of 2-3
where only the mage is down.

But I concur on the fun part. Just make sure the
shaman/warlock/paladin/druid/hunter/rogue has the wipe recovery tools
at hand :) 
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 12:22:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Christian Stauffer wrote:
> >
> > Wrong, I have being doing SM as an 39 - 40th lvl warrior who had no
> > problem holding aggro.
>
> Ok :-) Let's say he didn't hold aggro, so I tanked, what made his
> decision to go aggressive/berserk ok in the end :) 
>

How big is your group? Do you have another healer? Your method makes
sense if there is another healer do the healing... Which obviously you
do from the last statement you have made. Then tank away.

Though it is understand that warrior goes defensive stance in
instances, if you and the warrior have been working together before and
know what parts to play, then it work well too.

Doing SM make me realize how annoy pally is with their 3x heal. Yes, I
heard and read about it. But never really experience it until the SM.


> > Our group consisted of
> >
> > rogue
> > warrior
> > druid
>
> Ah, the unbeatable trio :) 
>

:-) Concur - personally, I agree that this is an ideal size for
instance run, plenty of excitement to pass around


> > It is harder to hold aggro in battle stance than in defense stance
> > because warrior only had challenge shout (that can be used in all
> > stances) which is an AoE with 10 minutes cool down. Like Christian
> > said, my warrior is in defense mode in the instance in order to use
> > taunt (10s cooldown).
>
> I see.
>

Correction, there is also that Mocking Strikes availabe only in battle
stance. It function like taunt when hit, but it also has a long cool
down period.


> > My tactic for holding a mobs after the pull is to use
> >
> > bloodrage -> taunt -> cleave -> disarm/sunder armor -> cleave ->
repeat
>
> Looks quite like I do it: Pull with wrath + moonfire + fairie fire
(the
> latter two are instants) -> Shift to bear -> demoralizing roar to
grab
> aggro from those mobs i didn't harm yet, cleave to build up more
aggro. I
> only use taunt if a mob attacks a clothwearer or a rogue.
>

Our group, rogue do the pulling, then I played interceptor to hold
their aggro before they get too close to sense the tasty druid.

Good point, I forget to mention the use of Demoralizing Shout because
it only worked 50% of the time in the instance, not a sure bet like
taunt or cleave. But it does lower their attack powers which is the
primary reason I used rather as a tool to grab aggro.


>
> I figured that a while ago, too :-). And I have thorns on me (15
damage
> dealt when someone hits me), that's a good thing to build up hate
too.
>
> Until about a month ago, I casted thorns on everyone in the party,
just
> like I buffed them with MOTW. Then I read somewhere that thorns is
not
> there to actually do damage, but to build up aggro, and I thought
> "damn, of course, why the hell didn't I figure that out by myself?".
> Since I cast thorns only on myself and the warrior(s), it made it a
> good piece easier to hold aggro :o )
>

Another good point, thanks for pointing it out, I need to let my druid
know about this. We are so used to buff everyone with the Mark of the
Wild & Thorn automatically upon enter an instance.


>
> Taunt -> 5 seconds of hitting -> bash (that's usually enough to keep
its
> attention for a while :) 
>

then it lost interests on you and focused on the rogue, how rude. :-)


>
> > my warrior is a DW fury spec. He was able to build up rage quick
> > against the mob. Bloodrage helps to get a good kickstart since
healer
> > is there to heal.
>
> Is bloodrage the skill that converts health to rage? I didn't even
buy
> the druids representation of this ability, because I thought it's not
> very useful. Do you use it a lot? I guess I should give it a try,
> because my standard party is having more than enough healing power :) 
>

Yes. I used bloodrage a lot in defense mode because it quickly gives
you enough rages to get off that first cleave within 5 sec of battle.
And once, everyone start hitting on you, its easy to get rages points
:-)
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 1:32:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
news:Xns965EE829B4FAE2galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...
> I never had a problem with my pet in Dire Maul. Those guys don't fear
> or run away, though. And the groups of mobs are better separated. I
> always pull in Dire Maul. In Scholomance, there's enough humanoid
> enemies that rogues need to pull for sapping purposes.

I don't really know why you insist on pulling. Apart from feign death (which
isn't a guaranteed get out) there's no advantage in a hunter pulling
especially in a tight area like Scholomance where you're unlikely to need to
utilise a 41 yard range. A warrior throwing a brick will aggro the required
mobs just the same and it's pretty easy to know which other mobs are going
to come along as well.

You're much more likley to want the Mage to pull by sheeping a caster or
silence, the rogue to pull by sapping or the warrior to pull by charging and
shield bashing a caster when the other two aren't available, or a warlock to
banish or a Druid to sleep (in UBRS for instance).

I used to believe the myth that hunters were the natural pullers, and insist
on doing it, but I got over it and almost never do it now. I do sometimes
pull from the mobs the warrior pulled, but that's with the understanding of
the party for CC purposes.
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 2:37:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

> The owner of a Druid who continues to out-tank every warrior they
> group with, and a retired hunter :-)

Yeah, uh huh. What level is this druid?

In Dire Bear form I have over 9K amor self-buffed and a 15% crit rate
and even I'd prefer to let a Warrior be MT. Warriors have Block, Parry
and a host of other tools that make them better suited to the job.
Anyone playing a driuid that says they can out tank "every Warrior" is
just being an arrogant prick.

I'm not saying we can't tank. We can and do it well, if (and only if)
we have the equipment for it. (Don't go thinking all that sta/int/spi
gear does you any good while tanking.) We're just better suited to MA
or 3rd tank (in raids) when we do.

Regards,
Noal

--
Dharzhak - Night Elf Druid (60) on Stormrage [PvE]
May 23, 2005 3:56:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"porl" <porlp@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:3fdio8F77ln6U1@individual.net...
>
> "Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
> news:Xns965EE829B4FAE2galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...
>> I never had a problem with my pet in Dire Maul. Those guys don't fear
>> or run away, though. And the groups of mobs are better separated. I
>> always pull in Dire Maul. In Scholomance, there's enough humanoid
>> enemies that rogues need to pull for sapping purposes.
>
> I don't really know why you insist on pulling. Apart from feign death
> (which isn't a guaranteed get out) there's no advantage in a hunter
> pulling especially in a tight area like Scholomance where you're unlikely
> to need to utilise a 41 yard range. A warrior throwing a brick will aggro
> the required mobs just the same and it's pretty easy to know which other
> mobs are going to come along as well.
>
> You're much more likley to want the Mage to pull by sheeping a caster or
> silence, the rogue to pull by sapping or the warrior to pull by charging
> and shield bashing a caster when the other two aren't available, or a
> warlock to banish or a Druid to sleep (in UBRS for instance).
>
> I used to believe the myth that hunters were the natural pullers, and
> insist on doing it, but I got over it and almost never do it now. I do
> sometimes pull from the mobs the warrior pulled, but that's with the
> understanding of the party for CC purposes.
I believe that a Hunter will want to pull because in solo play it's careful
/ skilful pulling that makes life easy for them. This translates to group
play 'sometimes', so long as your tank is worthy of the name and can gain
aggro. That said, nuking (aimed shot) with your pull shot is something that
I've seen lots, and been guilty of, then you wonder why the 'useless' tank
isn't drawing it off you and the beastie is eating your face. Using a hunter
to mark targets is very very useful, using a hunter to pull, sometimes good,
sometimes bad.

The comments I've seen (paraphrased):

Warrior: I need to pull to get it's aggro - Not entirely true
Hunter: I must pull cos I can mark - No no no, the 2 are not joined at the
hip
Warrior: Stop that pet getting aggro!! - Whyyyyyy?
Hunter: but fire traps do damage, ice sux! - Riiiight, ok. Frozen mobs =
less things kicking our faces in
Warrior: But defensive stance does no damage - Ooooh, ok, let get the mage
to tank shall we? or the priest maybe...
Hunter: ...but pet defensive makes it easier for me - Yah, 1 wipe coming up
Warrior (to a druid): How did you get all those mods to attack you? - You've
heard of Talents right?

My point is it's it's easy to be passable at a class, any class, but KNOWING
our class and it's limits sets you apart. A good hunter and a good tank
means you don't really need to worry who pull, they can both do the job and
help everyone else stay on there cloth wearing feet.

Alex
The owner of a Druid who continues to out-tank every warrior they group
with, and a retired hunter :-)
--
If life had the equivalent of
IDDQD
IDKFA
....I'd maybe go outside, maybe
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 4:30:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

> Is bloodrage the skill that converts health to rage? I didn't
> even buy the druids representation of this ability, because
> I thought it's not very useful.

*blink*

It's not useful if you're never in bear form. If you are, it's mission
critical. Hell, since ours just slightly lowers armor temporarily, it's
arguably even better than the warrrior's one.

No rage = no bash, no maul, no taunt, no feral charge, no discouraging
roar and especially no regeneration. Without rage, you might as well
just stand there and whack them with a stick.

Regards,
Noal

--
Dharzhak - Night Elf Druid (60) on Stormrage [PvE]
Kemwer - Tauren Warrior (21) on Stormrage [PvE]
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 5:20:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

I didn't spend that much time in ST, but I did the tanking bear gig,
backing up a paladin, when I did. Most of it was fine, but I got my ass
kicked hard by the end boss dragons. We won, but it was damned close.

Oh, and I got to tank UBRS on Saturday. That was something. I join a
raid organized by another guild that ours is building a good
relationship with. (For doing MC runs together and so forth) I join
up, fully expecting to be a healer, and I see 3 priest a warrior and
the paladin from my guild that invited me in the first place. So I
leave on my feral gear and offer to tank instead. Things go reasonably
well and we get to the General and his two henchmen. The warrior is to
MT the general, the warlock fears one of the henchmen and I MT the one
left over and the paladin helps me as MA. We take out the first
henchman, I chase down the second one and halfway through that, the
paladin dies. We get the 2nd henchman and I pop out of bear form, rez
the paladin, go back down into bear and charge the General. The General
kills the paladin and then me after I taunted the General off the
warrior when he was close to going down himself. The warrior stays
alive as the healers are (as they are supposed to) concentrating on
keeing him alive. The General goes down and we had a successful raid.

While I've seen UBRS runs that were more dominating, we had a good run
and I was happy with how it went. Tanking in Baron and Scholo runs is
MUCH easier. Short of anything in MC, I'm pretty sure the General is an
order of magnitude more of an ass kicker than anything else in an
instance.

Regards,
Noal

--
Dharzhak - Night Elf Druid (60) on Stormrage [PvE]
Kemwer - Tauren Warrior (21) on Stormrage [PvE]
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 5:35:56 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Alex" <assetsinc@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Alex
> The owner of a Druid who continues to out-tank every warrior they group
> with, and a retired hunter :-)

BTW: Yesterday, I did the armory in SM with a Warrior and a Shaman, who
I happen to group with often. Even though we played very tactically, that
means good pulling, exactly timed stuns etc, I've never seen the warrior
immediatly pull a mob from the shaman (who did the healing).
As druid in bear form, I currently have 2 abilities for doing this: One
makes 1 single mob immediately attack me and doesn't cost any rage (and
has a 10 seconds cooldoown), the other one makes alle nearby mobs
immediately attack me, costs about 15 rage and is on a big cooldown.
Don't warriors have anything like this, or do I just happen with
warriors who don't use it? Would really confuse me...

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (44) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (29) on DE Proudmoore [PvE]
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 5:35:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Christian Stauffer" <wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
news:4291c01d$0$1148$5402220f@news.sunrise.ch...
> "Alex" <assetsinc@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Alex
> > The owner of a Druid who continues to out-tank every warrior they group
> > with, and a retired hunter :-)
>
> BTW: Yesterday, I did the armory in SM with a Warrior and a Shaman, who
> I happen to group with often. Even though we played very tactically, that
> means good pulling, exactly timed stuns etc, I've never seen the warrior
> immediatly pull a mob from the shaman (who did the healing).
> As druid in bear form, I currently have 2 abilities for doing this: One
> makes 1 single mob immediately attack me and doesn't cost any rage (and
> has a 10 seconds cooldoown), the other one makes alle nearby mobs
> immediately attack me, costs about 15 rage and is on a big cooldown.
> Don't warriors have anything like this, or do I just happen with
> warriors who don't use it? Would really confuse me...
>


Warriors get the single target taunt around level 10. I'm not sure when they
get AE taunt, but I'm sure they get it at some point. Costs rage and has a
big cooldown, etc. Taunt can only be used from defensive stance though. So
I would guess that is what the problem is. They're probably trying to play
in some other stance because they don't like the "-10% melee damage dealt"
modifier on defensive.

Sooner or later, they will probably have to learn that a tanks most important
job is taking hits, not doing damage. If they were EQ veterans, they would
know it already ;) 

--
Davian / Dearic (Bloodhoof)

"We need a new Mario game, where you rescue the princess in the first ten
minutes, and for the rest of the game you try and push down that sick feeling
in your stomach that she's "damaged goods"... When Peach asks you, in the
quiet of her mushroom castle bedroom "do you still love me?" you pretend to be
asleep. You press the A button rhythmically, to control your breath, keep it
even." - Joey Comeau on increased realism in gaming.
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 6:02:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Would that work in a 5 man party in Scholomance? With casters casting
silence and summoning mobs? Plus the additional dangers of runners?


"Babe Bridou" <babebridou@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1116852057.384492.64040@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...



I've yet to really see the point in pulling tactics. From my (priestly)
point of view, the best pulling tactic is to have someone do some kind
of big AOE attack. That way all the mobs are in one place with one
enemy that I can heal easily without having to worry about drawing
aggro.

A shaman is great for this. I've yet to see a better tank, even
warriors couldn't compete. Chain Lightning/Fire Nova totem/magma
totem/rockbiter while I heal, the hunter spams multishots, the warrior
whirlwinds and demo shouts in berzerk stance, and the mage blizzards
and cones of cold. The shaman is near certain to keep all mobs on him,
and the fight ends quicker than my first time ;) 

Finesse is for sissies :p 
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 6:14:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Davian" <davian@nospammindspring.com> wrote:

> Warriors get the single target taunt around level 10.

Hrm, I should really play my level 16 warrior alt from time to time :) 

> I'm not sure when they
> get AE taunt, but I'm sure they get it at some point. Costs rage and has a
> big cooldown, etc. Taunt can only be used from defensive stance though. So
> I would guess that is what the problem is. They're probably trying to play
> in some other stance because they don't like the "-10% melee damage dealt"
> modifier on defensive.

Ah, thanks for the info. I didn't consider the stances thingie :-)

> Sooner or later, they will probably have to learn that a tanks most important
> job is taking hits, not doing damage. If they were EQ veterans, they would
> know it already ;) 

The warrior I grouped with is not to blame, as he was 40 and I was 44.
As it would've been hard for him to hold aggro, I did the pulling and main
tanking anyway and it was a good decision from him to use aggressive or
berserk stance, because we didn't have another dedicated damage dealer :o )

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (44) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (29) on DE Proudmoore [PvE]
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 7:00:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

<dharzhak@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1116869838.571806.203760@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> The owner of a Druid who continues to out-tank every warrior they
>> group with, and a retired hunter :-)
>
> Yeah, uh huh. What level is this druid?
>
> In Dire Bear form I have over 9K amor self-buffed and a 15% crit rate
> and even I'd prefer to let a Warrior be MT. Warriors have Block, Parry
> and a host of other tools that make them better suited to the job.
> Anyone playing a driuid that says they can out tank "every Warrior" is
> just being an arrogant prick.
>
> I'm not saying we can't tank. We can and do it well, if (and only if)
> we have the equipment for it. (Don't go thinking all that sta/int/spi
> gear does you any good while tanking.) We're just better suited to MA
> or 3rd tank (in raids) when we do.

Yeah...took my alt hunter to Sunken Temple last night, with a
rogue and 2 druids. We were a slightly higher-level than the
dungeon, and the 2 druids switched out on tanking/healing. In
a couple of places both tanked, switching out mid-fight (thank
you for your sacrifice, pet).

It was definately possible and fun. It was definately NOT as
"efficient" as a warrior/healer combo. But then again, all of
those are in BRD/BRS :-).
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 8:04:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Babe Bridou" <babebridou@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Of course not, I want to try, but they never let me :p 

I bet your guildmates would :o )

> At least it would work a bit better than a Leeroy pull!

/yell LLLLLEEEERRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYY

I fell from the chair when someone yelled this yesterday while
I was waiting for the zeppelin in Orgrimmar :o )

Sometimes, when it occurs that I'm part of a raid, I use to do
suicidal attacks when the frontiers are stuck (= no side makes
a serious attempt to advance) and I spot a wounded target
within the enemy troops: I run towards it, spamming moonfire
and hoping he dies before I do. I guess LLLLEEERRROOOOYYYY will
replace "FOR THE HORDE!" as my battlecry for stuff like this :) 

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (44) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (29) on DE Proudmoore [PvE]
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 8:20:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

>>Then why did Blizzard make us the pulling class, huh?
>
> I'm sorry, but what exactly did Blizzard do to make Hunters
> the pulling class besides saying "Hunters are the pulling
> class!"?

People would find their zen moment a lot sooner if they stopped
listening to the BCMs. Those of us that came from D2 know better than
to listen to anything that comes from them. Blizzard makes great games,
but are gawd awful and telling people how to play them.

The only saving grace of the hunter class is the Freezing Trap. No
other class has a CC that can affect any type of mob. Beyond that, they
have nothing that isn't duplicated elsewhere.

Regards,
Noal
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 8:22:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"collection2002" <linch9@gmail.com> wrote:
> Christian Stauffer wrote:
>
> /snipe
>
>>
>> The warrior I grouped with is not to blame, as he was 40 and I was
> 44.
>> As it would've been hard for him to hold aggro, I did the pulling and
> main
>> tanking anyway and it was a good decision from him to use aggressive
> or
>> berserk stance, because we didn't have another dedicated damage
> dealer :o )
>>
>
> Wrong, I have being doing SM as an 39 - 40th lvl warrior who had no
> problem holding aggro.

Ok :-) Let's say he didn't hold aggro, so I tanked, what made his
decision to go aggressive/berserk ok in the end :) 

> Our group consisted of
>
> rogue
> warrior
> druid

Ah, the unbeatable trio :) 

> It is harder to hold aggro in battle stance than in defense stance
> because warrior only had challenge shout (that can be used in all
> stances) which is an AoE with 10 minutes cool down. Like Christian
> said, my warrior is in defense mode in the instance in order to use
> taunt (10s cooldown).

I see.

> My tactic for holding a mobs after the pull is to use
>
> bloodrage -> taunt -> cleave -> disarm/sunder armor -> cleave -> repeat

Looks quite like I do it: Pull with wrath + moonfire + fairie fire (the
latter two are instants) -> Shift to bear -> demoralizing roar to grab
aggro from those mobs i didn't harm yet, cleave to build up more aggro. I
only use taunt if a mob attacks a clothwearer or a rogue.

> Since I can hit up to 4 mobs with cleave, I have no trouble holding
> their aggro.

I figured that a while ago, too :-). And I have thorns on me (15 damage
dealt when someone hits me), that's a good thing to build up hate too.

Until about a month ago, I casted thorns on everyone in the party, just
like I buffed them with MOTW. Then I read somewhere that thorns is not
there to actually do damage, but to build up aggro, and I thought
"damn, of course, why the hell didn't I figure that out by myself?".
Since I cast thorns only on myself and the warrior(s), it made it a
good piece easier to hold aggro :o )

> Usually when the mob attacks spell caster, I can run over
> to get its attention with
>
> taunt -> cleave -> disarm/sunder armor -> cleave -> repeat

Taunt -> 5 seconds of hitting -> bash (that's usually enough to keep its
attention for a while :) 

> which will add him to my group of mobs. If I can't run over, I usually
> ask the spell caster to kite her mob over to where I am or have her
> standing behind me. Then when her mob came in range, he will be cleaved
> and joined the we-hate-warrior club.

Hehe.

> my warrior is a DW fury spec. He was able to build up rage quick
> against the mob. Bloodrage helps to get a good kickstart since healer
> is there to heal.

Is bloodrage the skill that converts health to rage? I didn't even buy
the druids representation of this ability, because I thought it's not
very useful. Do you use it a lot? I guess I should give it a try,
because my standard party is having more than enough healing power :) 

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (44) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (29) on DE Proudmoore [PvE]
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 8:34:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"wolfing" <wolfing1@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Are you nuts? Guess you're talking about fighting murlocs near the
> newbie area. Try that with elite groups at or around your level. You
> REALLY want to pull them one or two at a time

One or two at a time?? A good balanced team (both by classes, and by
skills) is able to take down a minimum of 1 elite mob of their level
PER MEMBER with no problem.

And, as sick as babes strategy may sound,
a) it kills like hell -> the faster the battle is over, the better
b) it gives a near 100% certainity of not letting the healing draw
aggro
c) it involves tanking by a hunter (and his pet) and a shaman, both
together should have enough armor/health to do the job that's
usually done by one single warrior

I don't think it's the safest or fastest (downtime!) way, but I
guess it's a working (and funny) one.

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (44) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (29) on DE Proudmoore [PvE]
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 11:02:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"El Durango" <El_Durango@yah00.c0m> wrote in
news:j6cke.288$3D6.268@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com:

>> A warrior may have to stand there and die, but the rogue should just
>> hit vanish.
>>
> If they have the reagent needed, which they should.
>
> Regarding the main thread, I would say a pet in an instance should at
> all times be in passive mode.

Definitely - exactly what I do.

> If the dungeon has multiple paths,
> where a pet can go a different path, I would dismiss him and whistle
> him back when needed.

I do this too. But sometimes the pathing is just bad and your pet doesn't
something stupid in a wide open room.



--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 11:03:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Kevin C." <nomail@dot.com> wrote in news:Axfke.20130$J12.4092
@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com:

>
> "Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
> news:Xns965EA36762C772galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...
>> It didn't help that I wasn't the puller.
>
> Hunters shouldn't pull. The fact that you insist on pulling reflects more
> poorly on the class than anything else you did.

Then why did Blizzard make us the pulling class, huh?



--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris
Anonymous
May 23, 2005 11:09:56 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Christian Stauffer" <wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote in news:4291e9dc$0$1151
$5402220f@news.sunrise.ch:

> "wolfing" <wolfing1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Are you nuts? Guess you're talking about fighting murlocs near the
>> newbie area. Try that with elite groups at or around your level. You
>> REALLY want to pull them one or two at a time
>
> One or two at a time?? A good balanced team (both by classes, and by
> skills) is able to take down a minimum of 1 elite mob of their level
> PER MEMBER with no problem.

Yeah right! Try doing that in Dire Maul North. The biggest pull is four
ogres and if you don't CC at least one you're almost guaranteed a wipe.


--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 2:15:10 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

On Mon, 23 May 2005 19:03:24 GMT, Cyde Weys <cyde@umd.edu> scribed into the
ether:

>"Kevin C." <nomail@dot.com> wrote in news:Axfke.20130$J12.4092
>@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com:
>
>>
>> "Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
>> news:Xns965EA36762C772galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...
>>> It didn't help that I wasn't the puller.
>>
>> Hunters shouldn't pull. The fact that you insist on pulling reflects more
>> poorly on the class than anything else you did.
>
>Then why did Blizzard make us the pulling class, huh?

I'm sorry, but what exactly did Blizzard do to make Hunters the pulling
class besides saying "Hunters are the pulling class!"?

Nothing, that's what. There was a period of a few weeks when Hunters really
could pull. You could combine Feign Death with Frost Trap to break linked
spawns in instances. I practiced at it extensively in BRD, and I could
reliably seperate out 1-2 dwarves from those parade ground spawns of 10.
But that got nerfed.
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 4:23:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Brian" <brianmcadam@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:13a4911i2q8pm637liplj3o2qsqv73vg2l@4ax.com...

> So I have to *work* to get aggro. If the mage does a sheep-pull, he's
> highest on the hate list for all the mobs. Which means I have to work
> that
> much harder to keep him alive. If the Hunter pulls, and it gets ugly, he
> can Feign, and lose all (or almost all) of the hate that he had.

AFAIK It's a pretty simple recipe: There is a circumference around the mobs
dictating their aggro range and any other mobs that pass through that circle
are aggroed as well. Except for wandering mobs it's /obvious/ which mobs are
going to come with their annoyed friend. The time when a mage/rogue should
pull is when there is a caster involved that is immediately going to summon
something or silence a Paladin (Scholomance, Stratholme, etc). The time when
a Warrior should pull is when there is a mob or collection of mobs with a
non-casting damage effect, or a bunch of non-elites that need a good AOE
session from the mage.. A good time for a hunter to pull is either when they
want to exploit the Evade "expoit" if they dare, or to hit a caster from a
distance and scoot round a corner to force the casters to come to the party
for a shield bashing or a sleeping. But the best time is when someone else
has already pulled and they re-pull one of the mobs away into a trap as CC.

There is no guarantee Feign is going to work, unfortunately. Sure, the
hunter can take the hit and accept a rez, but it's expensive and pointless.
IMO Hunters really are best at sustained damage, crowd control and
off-tanking and that's it. Trying to be something else that we don't have
the facilities to be is desperate.

What it would be nice to have is a decent pulling shot. Something that only
we can use to seperate mobs, to draw individual mobs near, away from their
mates. It would make us invaluable. But we don't and the game isn't designed
to allow anyonr to do that, aside from the previously mentioned exploit bug
which many hunters don't know about, is dangerous and probably considered
illegal by Blizzard.
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 8:49:25 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Christian Stauffer wrote:
>
> > Doing SM make me realize how annoy pally is with their 3x heal.
Yes, I
> > heard and read about it. But never really experience it until the
SM.
>
> Hehe. As I said, we worked quite good together on them. As soon as
they
> tried to heal themselves, either the shaman purged them or I or the
> warrior stunned them. Works well with mages, too :) 
>

You or warrior stunned them, how does the warrior stun it? I can't
believe that I have overlooked that skill/talent. Wait, unless you mean
that Daze Shout (not sure the name, but the effect is that the shout
will stun nearby opponents for 6 or 4 seconds) from warrior's fury
talent, then I'm still working toward it.
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 9:58:29 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Christian Stauffer a écrit :
> "collection2002" <linch9@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > You or warrior stunned them
>
> I have bash, 2 seconds stun in bear form, 1 minute cooldown.
>
> > how does the warrior stun it? I can't
> > believe that I have overlooked that skill/talent. Wait, unless you
mean
> > that Daze Shout (not sure the name, but the effect is that the
shout
> > will stun nearby opponents for 6 or 4 seconds) from warrior's fury
> > talent, then I'm still working toward it.
>
> As the warrior was a tauren, it could be he used his racial ability,
> which stuns all nearby enemies for a second or two. Although I'm
quite
> sure he used another talent.
>
> Chris

Three warrior talents stun:
_Concussive blow (require 20 in protection) = next melee (instant on
test realms), stun for 5 secs, 45secs cooldown, 15 rage
_Improved Revenge (require 10 in protection) = gives Revenge a 40%
chance to stun for 3 seconds.
_Mace specialization (require 20 in arms) = your attacks have up to 6%
chance to stun for 3 seconds.
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 11:03:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Babe Bridou wrote:
>
> Three warrior talents stun:
> _Concussive blow (require 20 in protection) = next melee (instant on
> test realms), stun for 5 secs, 45secs cooldown, 15 rage
> _Improved Revenge (require 10 in protection) = gives Revenge a 40%
> chance to stun for 3 seconds.
> _Mace specialization (require 20 in arms) = your attacks have up to
6%
> chance to stun for 3 seconds.

merci vraiment

Woot, I have to build up 2 more warriors to specialize in other talents
tree. Ha, I thought the stun from Mace specialization was a Rogue only
talent. But now that I know, I have to build myself a dual-mace
wielding human specialized in arms and a dwarf human specialized in
protection.

is it 5 o'clock yet?
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 12:51:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

<dharzhak@my-deja.com> wrote:

>> Is bloodrage the skill that converts health to rage? I didn't
>> even buy the druids representation of this ability, because
>> I thought it's not very useful.
>
> *blink*
>
> It's not useful if you're never in bear form. If you are, it's mission
> critical. Hell, since ours just slightly lowers armor temporarily, it's
> arguably even better than the warrrior's one.

Now that sound like I should get my hairy ass to TB and buy it ASAP. Pity
I only have 25s atm and owe 7g to a guildmate :-) Thanks for the advice!

> No rage = no bash, no maul, no taunt, no feral charge, no discouraging
> roar and especially no regeneration.

With talents + gear, I get 15 rage when shifting to bear form. That's why
I regularly shift in & out in battle. But I guess that bloodrage thingie
is something I really should have.

> Without rage, you might as well
> just stand there and whack them with a stick.

That's what I'm doing when I'm not in bear form :o )

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (45) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (29) on DE Proudmoore [PvE]
May 24, 2005 2:37:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

<dharzhak@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1116869838.571806.203760@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> The owner of a Druid who continues to out-tank every warrior they
>> group with, and a retired hunter :-)
>
> Yeah, uh huh. What level is this druid?
>
> In Dire Bear form I have over 9K amor self-buffed and a 15% crit rate
> and even I'd prefer to let a Warrior be MT. Warriors have Block, Parry
> and a host of other tools that make them better suited to the job.
> Anyone playing a driuid that says they can out tank "every Warrior" is
> just being an arrogant prick.
>
> I'm not saying we can't tank. We can and do it well, if (and only if)
> we have the equipment for it. (Don't go thinking all that sta/int/spi
> gear does you any good while tanking.) We're just better suited to MA
> or 3rd tank (in raids) when we do.
>
> Regards,
> Noal
>
> --
> Dharzhak - Night Elf Druid (60) on Stormrage [PvE]
>

Ah, you miss understand me, I'm not being an "arrogant prick", I just have
never found a player that, at my lvl (46), can actually tank. By this I mean
gather up the enemies, keep them aggro'ed and stop them pounding the cloth.
It's players who fail in this role, not the class. I FULLY understand that a
warrior who knows his stuff will out tank me, I've just yet to find one :-)

I'd rather heal, but with a warrior who can't tank, I've invariable got a
mob is my face seconds later. May as well leave the warrior in battle mode
and do it myself, that way I'm the only one who needs healing, and I can do
that myself.

Alex
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 3:27:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"collection2002" <linch9@gmail.com> wrote:

> Christian Stauffer wrote:
>> >
>> > Wrong, I have being doing SM as an 39 - 40th lvl warrior who had no
>> > problem holding aggro.
>>
>> Ok :-) Let's say he didn't hold aggro, so I tanked, what made his
>> decision to go aggressive/berserk ok in the end :) 
>>
>
> How big is your group? Do you have another healer?

We had a healing specced shaman, who did the healing.

When I want to deal damage, I either nuke (which is dangerous in
such a small party because a decreased mana pool means less reserves
for emergencies) or shift to bear. And when I'm in bear form, there
is no real need for the warrior to do a lot of tanking. So it was
good he increased the damage output by going aggressive :) 

> Though it is understand that warrior goes defensive stance in
> instances, if you and the warrior have been working together before and
> know what parts to play, then it work well too.

Indeed :) 

> Doing SM make me realize how annoy pally is with their 3x heal. Yes, I
> heard and read about it. But never really experience it until the SM.

Hehe. As I said, we worked quite good together on them. As soon as they
tried to heal themselves, either the shaman purged them or I or the
warrior stunned them. Works well with mages, too :) 

> Good point, I forget to mention the use of Demoralizing Shout because
> it only worked 50% of the time in the instance, not a sure bet like
> taunt or cleave.

Hrm... I never found it not working yet, I'll keep an eye on it in the
future.

> Another good point, thanks for pointing it out, I need to let my druid
> know about this. We are so used to buff everyone with the Mark of the
> Wild & Thorn automatically upon enter an instance.

Yeah, I used to do the same. Now I only give thorns to those who are
supposed to tank.

>> Taunt -> 5 seconds of hitting -> bash (that's usually enough to keep
> its
>> attention for a while :) 
>>
>
> then it lost interests on you and focused on the rogue, how rude. :-)

Depends :o ) When people follow my advice and all of them hit the same
mob, it's no problem for me to keep the other ones on me using cleave.
If everyone picks a mob on his own, it's nearly impossible.

>> Is bloodrage the skill that converts health to rage? I didn't even
> buy
>> the druids representation of this ability, because I thought it's not
>> very useful. Do you use it a lot? I guess I should give it a try,
>> because my standard party is having more than enough healing power :) 
>
> Yes. I used bloodrage a lot in defense mode because it quickly gives
> you enough rages to get off that first cleave within 5 sec of battle.
> And once, everyone start hitting on you, its easy to get rages points
> :-)

Ok, I'll buy it the next time I'm in Thunderbluff. Thanks!

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (45) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (29) on DE Proudmoore [PvE]
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 3:59:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Alex" <assetsinc@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Ah, you miss understand me, I'm not being an "arrogant prick", I just have
> never found a player that, at my lvl (46), can actually tank. By this I mean
> gather up the enemies, keep them aggro'ed and stop them pounding the cloth.
> It's players who fail in this role, not the class. I FULLY understand that a
> warrior who knows his stuff will out tank me, I've just yet to find one :-)
>
> I'd rather heal, but with a warrior who can't tank, I've invariable got a
> mob is my face seconds later. May as well leave the warrior in battle mode
> and do it myself, that way I'm the only one who needs healing, and I can do
> that myself.

Sad but true. I made the exactly same experience so far. I did armory
yesterday to help a 36 and a 38 warrior getting some stuff from herod. A 40
shamen joined us. I switched to my healer gear and focused on healing and
support. The 36 warrior, even though 8 levels beyond me, was the 1st warrior
I met so far who watched my back and pulled the enemies away from me when
I took too much aggro. And he even succeeded by using taunts and stuff.
I've never seen a warrior using taunts before. And I can't count the times I
did the SM instances with pickup groups.

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (45) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (29) on DE Proudmoore [PvE]
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 5:54:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"collection2002" <linch9@gmail.com> wrote:

> You or warrior stunned them

I have bash, 2 seconds stun in bear form, 1 minute cooldown.

> how does the warrior stun it? I can't
> believe that I have overlooked that skill/talent. Wait, unless you mean
> that Daze Shout (not sure the name, but the effect is that the shout
> will stun nearby opponents for 6 or 4 seconds) from warrior's fury
> talent, then I'm still working toward it.

As the warrior was a tauren, it could be he used his racial ability,
which stuns all nearby enemies for a second or two. Although I'm quite
sure he used another talent.

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (45) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (29) on DE Proudmoore [PvE]
Anonymous
May 24, 2005 9:06:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

> Every time I've tried to do Tribute, the main tank got MS'd, and
> the healer couldn't cope with the spike. Main Tank down, and
> we wipe.

The tank needs to be a Protection Specced warrior with Last Stand to
pull through easily. That said, the Priest can slap a Power Word:
Shield on the tank and then start cranking out the jams. The druid has
to try to fight thorugh it and battle rez the warrior if he fails. If
you're repeatedly wiping, there's a problem that needs to be addressed.

> The worst I've ever seen, though, was War Master Voone, in LBRS.
> MS for 3k, Throw Axe for 1700, back to back.

Crits do happen.

> I'm sorry, I don't *have* 4700 HP

That's a problem and it should be addressed. When I'm in my tanking
gear, I have 9K+ armor and about 4900 HPs. I can make some gear swaps
and give up about 1K armor for another ~750 HPs. Warriors and Paladins
should be around 7K armor in sheild & 1H and have at least 5K HPs at
level 60. Tanking is all about gear and player skill.

As for the aforementioned group of 3 druids & 2 rogues, that really
depends on being specced (balance Druids need not apply) & geared
properly (new 60s should be doing raids instances on the other
continent) and making proper use of the 3 available battle rezzes
(healer rezzes a fallen tank and drops to bear while the fallen tank
comes up and heals).

Regards,
Noal
Anonymous
May 25, 2005 8:42:24 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Doc wrote:
> collection2002 <linch9@gmail.com> stared blankly into space for a
> short while before writing:
> > Woot, I have to build up 2 more warriors to specialize in other
> > talents tree. Ha, I thought the stun from Mace specialization was a
> > Rogue only talent. But now that I know, I have to build myself a
> > dual-mace wielding human specialized in arms and a dwarf human
> > specialized in protection.
>
> A Dwarf Human?
>
> CRIKEY!
>

What? You haven't read Babe's post about the RP in his PvP realm? Such
a n00b :-)

okay, technically, dwarf warrior, er, no time for logic check when ???
boss come down the aisle.
Anonymous
May 25, 2005 10:35:58 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

geronimo wrote:

> you're saying that a class that can pull from a distance, wears mail, can
> mark a target for all to see, have a CC that affect every mob, have 2
> distinct way to reduce aggro, have feign death to abort a bad pull... should
> not pull !?
>
> Please tell me who should pull then, and WHY ?

x2!!!

(Yay for useful forum-style posts!!!)
Anonymous
May 25, 2005 10:52:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

geronimo a écrit :
> "Kevin C." <nomail@dot.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
> Axfke.20130$J12.4092@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
> >
> > "Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
> > news:Xns965EA36762C772galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...
> > > It didn't help that I wasn't the puller.
> >
> > Hunters shouldn't pull. The fact that you insist on pulling reflects more
> > poorly on the class than anything else you did.
> >
>
> you're saying that a class that can pull from a distance, wears mail, can
> mark a target for all to see, have a CC that affect every mob, have 2
> distinct way to reduce aggro, have feign death to abort a bad pull... should
> not pull !?
>
> Please tell me who should pull then, and WHY ?

The Hunter, then the warrior. There's no reason to not allow the hunter
to pull.

The Hunter pulls well away from the group, if the pull is successfull
(only 4 mobs for example, with one being frozen), the warrior charges,
the hunter and pet disengage/cower, warrior builds aggro. Two distinct
pulls, one to separate mob clusters, one to build rage and aggro. I
don't see any argument that beat that one. Exceptions are:
instances/fights that don't require any kind of safe-pull (waste of
time to pull in two phases) and instances/fights that would be better
dealt with a sap opener.

A bit off-topic, but my favourite leeroy pull is still mind control.
May 25, 2005 12:03:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

collection2002 <linch9@gmail.com> stared blankly into space for a
short while before writing:
> Woot, I have to build up 2 more warriors to specialize in other
> talents tree. Ha, I thought the stun from Mace specialization was a
> Rogue only talent. But now that I know, I have to build myself a
> dual-mace wielding human specialized in arms and a dwarf human
> specialized in protection.

A Dwarf Human?

CRIKEY!

--
Doc
Save the Earth, it's the only planet with beer...
May 25, 2005 6:41:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Kevin C." <nomail@dot.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
Axfke.20130$J12.4092@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
> news:Xns965EA36762C772galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...
> > It didn't help that I wasn't the puller.
>
> Hunters shouldn't pull. The fact that you insist on pulling reflects more
> poorly on the class than anything else you did.
>

you're saying that a class that can pull from a distance, wears mail, can
mark a target for all to see, have a CC that affect every mob, have 2
distinct way to reduce aggro, have feign death to abort a bad pull... should
not pull !?

Please tell me who should pull then, and WHY ?
Anonymous
May 25, 2005 8:13:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
news:Xns965EA36762C772galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...
> So I was playing really tired last night in a 5-man on Scholomance and I
> wasn't on the top of my game. I see now why hunters have a bad
> reputation. It's very hard to do everything right and it's very easy to
> do one thing wrong when it comes to playing as a hunter. Here are some
> examples:
>
> 1) We are bypassing a group of mobs and the pet takes the long way
> around, aggroing mobs. We wipe.
> 2) We're fighting some mobs and the pet gets feared into another group
> of mobs. We wipe. They were inclined to blame my pet, but it was
> really more the fault of us not using the proper pulling strategies (we
> know what enemies fear, we should engage them somewhere safe).
> 3) The pet gets feared into more enemies and we don't wipe, but it was
> close. Evidently we didn't learn the lesson of #2.

I dont know why they dont just do what everquest (eventually) did and make
pets faction neutral to all mobs.


> 4) The pet chases a fleeing human into a group of more enemies. We
> wipe. See #2 again.

Someone on snares forget to do their job? One way to avoid this is to pull
the mobs well back so you give yourself plenty of room for runners.
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 2:12:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

On Wed, 25 May 2005 14:41:50 +0200, "geronimo" <toto@lulu.com> scribed into
the ether:

>
>"Kevin C." <nomail@dot.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
>Axfke.20130$J12.4092@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
>>
>> "Cyde Weys" <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in message
>> news:Xns965EA36762C772galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11...
>> > It didn't help that I wasn't the puller.
>>
>> Hunters shouldn't pull. The fact that you insist on pulling reflects more
>> poorly on the class than anything else you did.
>>
>
>you're saying that a class that can pull from a distance,

Something every class but Paladin (and even them, with trinkets) can do.

Meaningless.

> wears mail,

Which is tissue paper compared to plate, and Hunters get no shield like
Shamans do to compensate.

Meaningless.

> can mark a target for all to see,

A lovely tool for enhanced team coordination, but has nothing to do with
the actual act of pulling.

Meaningless.

>have a CC that affect every mob,

Which doesn't require that the hunter himself do the pulling. Freeze trap
works equally well no matter who pulls. Actually, in review, I take that
back...it is actually *better* if someone else pulls, because the lack of
auto-shot for warriors means that they won't hit a frozen mob and break the
CC early the way others can accidently do.

Meaningless.

>have 2 distinct way to reduce aggro,

Neither of which are all that great, nor foolproof (the way say, a rogue
using Vanish is), and nothing in the entire arsenal actually fulfills the
term "pulling" as a term of art rather than the dictionary definition:
There is no way for a Hunter (or anyone else) to pull a single out of a
linked pack.

Meaningless.

>have feign death to abort a bad pull...

Feign Death fails a lot. Every mob in the "bad pull" increases the
likelihood that it will fail. If it fails against one, it fails against
all. Further, "bad pulls" are player issues, not character ones. With
linked spawns, there is not such thing as a bad pull, there are
just...pulls. The player issue is one of bad timing or stupidity; people
AFK, a roamer too close to the group you are pulling and you get the roamer
too, pulling while still fighting something else, pulling while low on
hp/mana or key spells are in cooldown, etc. None of which are in any way
related to being a Hunter.

Meaningless.

> should not pull !?

Correct.

>Please tell me who should pull then, and WHY ?

Warrior/Paladin, because they are going to end up with the aggro anyway, so
why not cut out the middleman? Initial aggro has more meaning than other
aggro does. Having someone else with aggro makes the job of capturing (and
keeping) that aggro that much more difficult for the person who is supposed
to have it. Hunter pulling means hunter taking damage, which means wasting
healer time, targeting, and mana healing someone who shouldn't need it.
Hunters take WAAAAAY more damage than a Warrior/Paladin does on any given
hit, both in the absolute sense and as a fraction of total hp.

Hunter pulling also means mobs put into melee range of hunter, which means
hunter NOT SHOOTING STUFF, which means substantially reduced DPS, which
means stuff lives longer, which puts whole party at risk.

Hunters have a number of ways to greatly facilitate pulling, and to keep
the group safe. Hunter's Mark, your pet, Freeze Trap, these are all
extremely powerful tools when properly utilized. They do not, however, turn
Hunters into pullers, no matter what Blizzard has to say on the issue.
Anonymous
May 26, 2005 12:21:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

> the druid or a paly is doing the tanking, you have a point,
> because they can't charge

Feral Specced druids can charge. It's an 11 point talent. However, it's
closer to the warrior's intercept. It costs 5 rage, is usable in
combat, interrupts casting and movement for 4 seconds and has a 15
second cooldown. You can use it to charge into a group, but it's better
suited for attacking a caster that already has aggro or catching
runners.

In higher instances such as UBRS & Strath, I rarely see warriors
charge. Usually pulling is done by warrior using a bow or gun or a mage
casting sheep, a priest casting shackle or a druid casting hibernate on
a key mob,

> The problem with the "hunter shouldn't pull" crowd is that they don't
> really understand what pulling is. Pulling is bringing the mobs to the
> group, in a safe place where you don't need to worry about patrols,
> or fleeing mobs bringing more adds

No, we do get it. We're saying that you don't need a hunter to do it. I
can do a Starfire/Moonfire/drop to Bear Form just as easily as I can
shoot a mob with a bow as a Warrior.

> Unless you insist to to the "Leroy" type of pull, warriors can't pull
> AND charge, and that means 15-21 rage lost. if you let the hunter
> pull, then charge, you can use this rage to build REAL aggro.

No different than a sheep, shackle, hibernate pull except you haven't
removed a mob from the pack. In fact, this is no different than a rogue
pulling. Look, I know the Hunter brochure said you're the pulling
class, but really, your pulling isn't a big deal. It doesn't make you
an invaluable part of the team. I have never been in a group of any
size that said, "Hey! We need a hunter for pulling!"

Your one thing you can point to and say, "This is what makes us
unique!" is Freezing Trap. No other class has a CC that can hit
anything. If I have an open slot to fill and if I choose to fill it
with a hunter versus any other class, that would be why. Certainly not
because you can shoot things and absolutely not because of your pet.

Regards,
Noal
!