Bang for the buck video.

[katfishgr]

Going to build a new pc this week ... looking for some suggestions on video card. I know I could go online and read all kinds of articles, compare features, and spend hours doing such. But, let's hear from some of you "in the know".

Building a middle road gamer ... Core i5 Sandy Bridge, P8P67 Asus Board, 8gb DDR3 (2@4gb) ... and probably an SSD for o/s install (size/speed yet to be decided), seperate HDD for data storage.

nVidia vs ATI ... for $240-$300 ... what would you pick?? Playing games like BF3 and COD. I aim to keep the build under $1300, without o/s included in the cost. Resolution would be 1920x1080.

Was considering an nVidia 560.

Chuck

 

[Rockdpm]

You want a 7870, 7950, or a GTX 670. 1 card will be enough with the rest of your system

 

[katfishgr]

You want a 7870, 7950, or a GTX 670. 1 card will be enough with the rest of your system

$240-$300 .... those are priced out of range.

 

[photonboy]

You can easily build a $1300 gaming computer with a GTX670.

The most important part of a gaming computer is the graphics card. I'm not sure if you're including a good monitor in that price too though.

Be aware though that a $200 CPU paired with a $400 graphics card is a far, far better way to go than a $400 CPU paired with a $200 graphics card.

For drives, you should have something like this:
1) SSD - 120GB (for Windows, programs etc)
2) 2TB WD Green drive (for games, downloads, media etc.)
*I have STEAM installed on my hard drive and Windows installed on my SSD. Remarkably, game loading times aren't that much quicker on an SSD as most think.

Just FYI.

 

[quilciri]

Single card solutions:

$250 HD 7850 (low power usage)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814129230

$230 GTX 480 (high power usage, PhysX)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130759

The above cards perform similarly to each other.


2 cards - with 2 cards you will *eventually* run into microstuttering.

$280 ($200 after mail-in) 2x GTX 460
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127646

3 cards - eliminates microstuttering issues at 3-4 cards, if your mobo can support that many

$330 ($270 after rebate) 3x HD 6770
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150540

*$420 ($300 after rebate) 3x GTX 460 (high PSU requirements)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127646

* when using 3 or more pci-e 2.0 slots, 2 or more cards are limited to 4 lanes. This can hinder performance of midrange and above cards. the 6770 is approx. the most powerful card that isn't hampered by a 4 lane pci-e 2.0 limit.

 

[photonboy]

SSD:
The best deal I've seen is the 120GB OCZ Agility for as little as $100 on sale. Connect it to the SATA3 (aka "SATA600") connector.

SLI/Crossfire:
Absolutely do NOT deal with multiple graphics cards. There is a known microstutter issue even with three cards; also if you have cards with 1GB of VRAM you still only have an effective 1GB of VRAM even with three cards (it is not added). For your money, you should be getting an HD7000 or GTX600 series card.

The best value is the HD7850, but again you should be able to build a system in your price range that includes a GTX670 which is an amazing card.

 

[ko888]

GeForce GTX 570

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007709+600094002+600095515&QksAutoSuggestion=&ShowDeactivatedMark=False&Configurator=&IsNodeId=1&Subcategory=48&description=&hisInDesc=&Ntk=&CFG=&SpeTabStoreType=&AdvancedSearch=1&srchInDesc=

 

[quilciri]

SSD:
The best deal I've seen is the 120GB OCZ Agility for as little as $100 on sale. Connect it to the SATA3 (aka "SATA600") connector.

SLI/Crossfire:
Absolutely do NOT deal with multiple graphics cards. There is a known microstutter issue. For your money, you should be getting an HD7000 or GTX600 series card.

Microstutter *only* happens with 2 cards, not everyone is bothered by it, and even those who are only tend to notice it when the framerates drop to 40 or below. I personally avoid 2 card configurations because it bothers me, but for the sake of being thorough, i included the option.

Do yourself a favor and don't buy an asynchronous NAND drive. they'll need to drop a lot more in price to be worth it again.

$110 Crucial m4 (synchronous NAND)
http://www.compusa.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=365475&SRCCODE=NEXUSA&cm_mmc_o=2mHCjCWw0fzTCjCVqHCjCdwwp&cpncode=32-125053308-2

Toggle NAND would be even better...

$120 Mushkin Chronos Deluxe
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820226318

$125 Sandisk Extreme
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820171567

 

[katfishgr]

GTX670's out of stock at newegg ... cept for a Galaxy brand, never heard of it. Prefer EVGA myself. An 850 watt with up to 66amps on a single 12v rail enough for this beast of a video card?

I ran two cards in my previous computer. Two 9800's. Built about 3-4 years ago, hence the need for a new one. Have had several issues running the two cards. Some games work great, others constantly crash. Tired of fooling with it. Has a lot of "miles" on the machine too.

On the SSD ... I was looking at an OCZ Agility 3, 90GB Sata III at $149. Mostly for o/s load, maybe some minimal data storage. A run of the mill 1TB will probably be used to store other data, games, etc.

 

[ko888]

GeForce GTX 670 minimum power supply requirement:

Minimum of a 500 Watt or greater power supply with a combined +12 Volt continuous current rating of 30 Amps or greater and with at least two 6-pin PCI Express supplementary power connectors.

SLI (2-way SLI): A minimum 700 Watt or greater system power supply with a combined +12 Volt continuous current rating of 45 Amps or greater and with at least four 6-pin PCI-E Supplementary Power Connectors.

 

[katfishgr]

Then again, on the SSD ... could probably do better. I made this list of parts back in January lol

 

[photonboy]

Then again, on the SSD ... could probably do better. I made this list of parts back in January lol

The 120GB OCZ Agility 3 was on sale at NCIX at $108 but was sold out. However, NCIX frequently has SSD's on sale. It's almost annoying because several parts will go on sale, then go back to full price, then on sale again a month later. I thought there was actually a law against how often the same thing could go on sale...

Anyway, I recommend starting with NCIX to get a parts list going. Something like:
1) Asus Ivy Bridge motherboard $200 to $300
2) Intel CPU ($200 to $300)
*make sure to get a "K" version (overclockable). Probably the i5-3570K

3) Graphics card (GTX670 for $400) I have to stick with my recommend here. *read review AND the Kepler information at NVidia
4) case (Antec ONE or similar. *Get a case AND motherboard that support FRONT USB v3.0)
5) 120GB SSD
6) Power Supply (quality PSU 650W or greater. Rail amperage should not be an issue. 40Amps on the +12V rail is enough for a single GTX670)

Other:
- CPU HSF (at least $20 but much better than stock for noise/overclock)
- front-bottom case fan (the Antec ONE has top-rear fans, but I'd add a low-noise 500 to 800RPM, non-variable 120mm fan)

Cheers. Need any more help, just shout.

(Asus has some great Ivy Bridge motherboards.)

 

[photonboy]

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/cpus/2012/05/01/intel-core-i5-3570k-cpu-review/8

*I'm still not entirely sure where the overheating issue is. That said, they did overclock this CPU to 5GHz (not something I recommend).

The CPU doesn't have hyperthreading, however it did match the previous similar CPU with its hyperthreading enabled. Simply put, it's hard to beat the price. Also, spending $380 on the 3770K instead of $220 provides little benefit in games and the difference in money would be best spent elsewhere, like on the graphics card.

A great gaming system comes down to the BALANCE of parts and this CPU, and a good Ivy Bridge motherboard provide a great start.

 

[photonboy]

Awesome motherboard:
http://us.ncix.com/products/?sku=69883&vpn=P8Z77-V%20Pro&manufacture=Others&promoid=1069

 

[quilciri]

GTX670's out of stock at newegg ... cept for a Galaxy brand, never heard of it. Prefer EVGA myself. An 850 watt with up to 66amps on a single 12v rail enough for this beast of a video card?

I ran two cards in my previous computer. Two 9800's. Built about 3-4 years ago, hence the need for a new one. Have had several issues running the two cards. Some games work great, others constantly crash. Tired of fooling with it. Has a lot of "miles" on the machine too.

On the SSD ... I was looking at an OCZ Agility 3, 90GB Sata III at $149. Mostly for o/s load, maybe some minimal data storage. A run of the mill 1TB will probably be used to store other data, games, etc.

SLI/xfire support has gotten way better in 4 generations of cards


That having been said, if you tend to leave you computer on for most of the day, a single 7850 is your best bet. It's the lowest power consumption of cards I'd recommend in your price range.

 

[quilciri]

A 90gb agility 3 @ $149 right now is an utter rip off; is that an old price? It's ~$100 for that drive right now, and even that's not worth it for an asynchronous NAND drive.

 

[ram1009]

AMD/ATI has buggy drivers. They always have and probably always will. Others will tell you that everybody has buggy drivers and they're right however AMD/ATI seem never to fix theirs. Personally, I've given up on them.

 

[photonboy]

quilciri,
Microstutter. No point in discussing it further here as he's not going that route.

Agility 3:
I just said this SSD can be found on sale for $100. I'm not sure what you mean by "not worth it for an asynchronous NAND drive" as I have one and have benchmarked it and it performs very well. It got up to about 550MBytes/second for large reads and the 4K read/write was in line with the price and class.

*Look for an SSD that scores greater than 450MBytes/second reads. If you want to spend a lot of time reading reviews that's fine too, but basically go with that and look for SALES.

 

[quilciri]

Well, the last ATI card I had before these was a 9500 pro, so I can't speak for the cards in between. I've never had any problems with the 6770's in any game. Never even had a problem with xfire support, and I've played most games on the market today with this rig.

 

[quilciri]

quilciri,
Microstutter. No point in discussing it further here as he's not going that route.

Agility 3:
I just said this SSD can be found on sale for $100. I'm not sure what you mean by "not worth it for an asynchronous NAND drive" as I have one and have benchmarked it and it performs very well. It got up to about 550MBytes/second for large reads and the 4K read/write was in line with the price and class.

*Look for an SSD that scores greater than 450MBytes/second reads. If you want to spend a lot of time reading reviews that's fine too, but basically go with that and look for SALES.

You need to do more SSD research. They type of NAND in an ssd influences it's performance more than anything else, including the controller.

SLC > toggle MLC > synchronous MLC > asynchronous MLC

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ssd-storage-value,3184-6.html

Toggle nand drives with the same controller are roughly 60% faster than asynchronous. On top of that, there is less fall off in performance as the drive fills up with toggle/synchronous nand drives than there is with asynchronous. Even more, Game data, video and music files are incompressible data, which asynchonous NAND is terrible at (componded by the sandforce controller which is also bad at incompressible data)

If you're a gamer you want *at least* synchronous NAND.

Given that the mushkin toggle drive can be had for $120, and other toggle drives for nearly as cheap, there's no point in buying an asynchronous drive at the current prices.

 

[photonboy]

Well, the last ATI card I had before these was a 9500 pro, so I can't speak for the cards in between. I've never had any problems with the 6770's in any game. Never even had a problem with xfire support, and I've played most games on the market today with this rig.

I've got an HD5870 and have been VERY pleased with it. Most of the current driver "issues" seem to be more about SLI vs Crossfire efficiency. Though NVidia does tend to be a bit better at tweaking drivers for improved performance. I've never had a game crash in over two years with this card.

NVidia vs AMD:
I'm not a fanboy. I was all set to get the HD7970 but thought I should wait for NVidia's cards. Well, the GTX680 beat it and the GTX670 performs on average 93% as well for only $400.

There were several reasons I went with NVidia this time (last time I avoided them because of the GTX400 hot GPU issue):
- slightly better drivers
- PhysX
- TXAA
- Adaptive VSYNC (maybe AMD will add this. It's a driver thing)
- GPU Boost
*Apparently the UNREAL 4 engine so far is only working with Kepler. Not sure of the deal there since it wouldn't make sense to limit games based on UNREAL 4 to only Kepler (GTX600 series). Sounds like some cash traded hands.

There's nothing wrong with an HD7970 or HD7950 around the $400 price range, but it's simply not possible to beat the GTX670.

 

[quilciri]

quilciri,
Agility 3:
I just said this SSD can be found on sale for $100. I'm not sure what you mean by "not worth it for an asynchronous NAND drive" as I have one and have benchmarked it and it performs very well. It got up to about 550MBytes/second for large reads and the 4K read/write was in line with the price and class.

You're saying your asynchrounous NAND drive hit the SATA III theoretical peak throughput? I believe I'd like to see some verified benchmarks of that. I bet OCZ would like to see that, too.

 

[quilciri]

There's nothing wrong with an HD7970 or HD7950 around the $400 price range, but it's simply not possible to beat the GTX670.

OP's price limit is $300, which excludes the 670 as well....

Admittedly I am biased, but not amd vs. nvidia biased. I just don't think any single card over $300 is worth the money

 

[photonboy]

You need to do more SSD research. They type of NAND in an ssd influences it's performance more than anything else, including the controller.

SLC > toggle MLC > synchronous MLC > asynchronous MLC

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ssd-storage-value,3184-6.html

Toggle nand drives with the same controller are roughly 60% faster than asynchronous. On top of that, there is less fall off in performance as the drive fills up with toggle/synchronous nand drives than there is with asynchronous. Even more, Game data, video and music files are incompressible data, which asynchonous NAND is terrible at (componded by the sandforce controller which is also bad at incompressible data)

If you're a gamer you want *at least* synchronous NAND.

Given that the mushkin toggle drive can be had for $120, and other toggle drives for nearly as cheap, there's no point in buying an asynchronous drive at the current prices.

SIGH.
Two points:
#1 - Here's a quote from the article you linked:
"At the end of the day, the real-world characteristics between SSD don't differ by a large degree. "

#2 - SSD performance for gamers is not that big a deal.
Don't believe me? Test it. I did. I got 700+MBytes/second on RAID0 SSD and compared it to a WD 1TB Black. Result? I never exceeded a 25% difference in load times.

There's a pretty good article on why this is. Basically it's because a lot of the game load time is limited to the CPU and GPU processing as well as intro videos. Plus, most games nowadays buffer everything into the System RAM until the next level load so it really doesn't make much difference.

That's why I recommend SSD's for Windows and HD's for games (unless the person has only a few games. $200 for a 256GB SSD makes that compelling now.)

 

[photonboy]

You're saying your asynchrounous NAND drive hit the SATA III theoretical peak throughput? I believe I'd like to see some verified benchmarks of that. I bet OCZ would like to see that, too.

You know, you're starting to get a little arrogant. The point of this is to help this guy put together a $1300. If you reread this post you'll see he's leaning towards the GTX670. I don't know why you are making a huge deal out of the SSD thing either. I'm talking about VALUE and I simply said it's hard to beat a $100 (on sale) OCZ Vertex 3.

Here's a benchmark confirming 550MB/sec on the OCZ Agility 3. I bet it's very similar to the one OCZ posted as well. Come on, do a little research before flaming people. It took me under 10 seconds to google this:
http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=762&Itemid=60&limit=1&limitstart=6

Any further comments I make will be SOLELY for the benefit of the original poster; let's not get mired down in petty quarrels. Remember, building a PC is about the best VALUE for the money and that means BALANCING the different part prices for the best overall performance.