Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

CF defect after using in external reader

Tags:
Last response: in Digital Camera
Share
Anonymous
August 11, 2005 9:18:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

This seems to be an old issue but I was not able to google a solution to
the following problem:

After using (reading/writing) a 256MB CF (working flawless for a year in
my camera) in an external USB-Reader my camera (Ixus 400) refuses to
switch on with this card.
So the often given recommendation to format the card inside the camera
is not working :-(
Using the reader the card is working fine.
I tried formating (via PC) with different file systems.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
Heinz

More about : defect external reader

Anonymous
August 11, 2005 9:18:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Heinz Goedl" <goedl@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:42fb6b02$0$12126$3b214f66@tunews.univie.ac.at...
> This seems to be an old issue but I was not able to google a solution to
> the following problem:
>
> After using (reading/writing) a 256MB CF (working flawless for a year in
> my camera) in an external USB-Reader my camera (Ixus 400) refuses to
> switch on with this card.
> So the often given recommendation to format the card inside the camera is
> not working :-(
> Using the reader the card is working fine.
> I tried formating (via PC) with different file systems.
>
> Any ideas?
>

Nope, none. I don't get why these cards, with no moving parts, fail.
Anonymous
August 11, 2005 9:18:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

> This seems to be an old issue but I was not able to google a solution to
> the following problem:
>
> After using (reading/writing) a 256MB CF (working flawless for a year in
> my camera) in an external USB-Reader my camera (Ixus 400) refuses to
> switch on with this card.
> So the often given recommendation to format the card inside the camera
> is not working :-(
> Using the reader the card is working fine.
> I tried formating (via PC) with different file systems.
>
> Any ideas?

I had a couple of CF cards that would get totally horked if I used them
in certain IDE->CF adapters (these were used to boot an OS). When they
would get horked like that, they couldn't be read in the IDE->CF adapter, in
a USB adapter, in a camera, or anything else. They'd be recognized, but any
attempts to read from them would fail miserably, as would any attempt to
format them.

So, on a Linux machine, I stuck them in a USB adapter and did "dd
if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda bs=512" on each of them, and then they worked just
fine - and are still working now, a year or so later. If you don't have a
Linux or Unix machine on which to perform that, you can boot to a Knoppix
live-CD and do it as well.

steve
Related resources
Anonymous
August 11, 2005 10:20:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Dave R knows who wrote:
> "Heinz Goedl" <goedl@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
> news:42fb6b02$0$12126$3b214f66@tunews.univie.ac.at...
>> This seems to be an old issue but I was not able to google a
>> solution to the following problem:
>>
>> After using (reading/writing) a 256MB CF (working flawless for a
>> year in my camera) in an external USB-Reader my camera (Ixus 400)
>> refuses to switch on with this card.
>> So the often given recommendation to format the card inside the
>> camera is not working :-(
>> Using the reader the card is working fine.
>> I tried formating (via PC) with different file systems.
>>
>> Any ideas?
>>
>
> Nope, none. I don't get why these cards, with no moving parts, fail.

why...simple reason...in fact there are several millions of simple
reasons...
there are many millions of transistors in every CF card. On of them fail,
there can be either
1) single bit in certain location failed
2) one chip failed which means one part of memory failed
3) whole chip dead.

why certain card work in reader and not in camera...hm...
who knows...maybe reader address it differently than camera.

Note that these (especially last) cards are pretty sensitive devices...like
last SanDisk extreme series is known to be very sensitive if switching it
from one camera to another etc. When i was buying SD for my S2 salesman told
me that they have a few cards of Extreme series failed when they were using
them as test cards in different cameras. This has never happened before with
any of cards, he said. That's why i finally decided to buy Ultra II series
instead. Ok, they do have lifetime warranty, buy f**k this if i loose over
400 of valuable photos...
I think they should start to make a kind of RAID function in cameras... so
you could insert two cards and tell camera that it should record each
picture on both cards. So, if one fails, you still have one copy. Further
possibility would be to use them as two cards and thus double available
space, but have more risk involved.
Am i ahead of time or just stupid? :-)
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 3:12:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"SleeperMan" <SleeperMan@too.sleepy> wrote

Further
: possibility would be to use them as two cards and thus double available
: space, but have more risk involved.
: Am i ahead of time or just stupid? :-)


Actually... my Olympus E10 does exactly that. It uses smartmedia AND compact
flash.
You still get card failures now and then but I just think of it as what
happened in the days of film. Say, you forgot to rewind the film and opened
the door.
Stuff happens and you lose pictures.

Kate
,
:
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 3:31:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Dave R knows who wrote:

>
>>So the often given recommendation to format the card inside the camera is
>>not working :-(
>>Using the reader the card is working fine.
>>I tried formating (via PC) with different file systems.
>>
>>Any ideas?

>
> Nope, none. I don't get why these cards, with no moving parts, fail.

They may not have moving parts in our estimation, but that doesnt' mean
their state never changes.

CF and other types of memory cards experience all manner of changes in
environment every time we take the camera from one place to the next.
Wear is exerted on them every time they are inserted and removed. Some
may be inserted into different readers, or must deal with a camera that
has a power supply that starts off with a certain voltage and then drops
off with use as the power supply exhausts; either of which imparts
variations in voltage level and read/write handling. And during all of
this, the contents of the card are being written and re-written
frequently, causing low-level state changes every time new data is
written. While I'm no physicist, I bet you could reasonably argue that
a memory card in fact has billions of moving "parts" on a molecular,
atomic or subatomic level. Any of these aspects can be a failure point.

When you get down to it, we should probably be wondering how these
devices work at all.



--
E-mail fudged to thwart spammers.
Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply.
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 5:06:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Steve Wolfe wrote:
>
> > This seems to be an old issue but I was not able to google a solution to
> > the following problem:
> >
> > After using (reading/writing) a 256MB CF (working flawless for a year in
> > my camera) in an external USB-Reader my camera (Ixus 400) refuses to
> > switch on with this card.
> > So the often given recommendation to format the card inside the camera
> > is not working :-(
> > Using the reader the card is working fine.
> > I tried formating (via PC) with different file systems.
> >
> > Any ideas?
>
> I had a couple of CF cards that would get totally horked if I used them
> in certain IDE->CF adapters (these were used to boot an OS). When they
> would get horked like that, they couldn't be read in the IDE->CF adapter, in
> a USB adapter, in a camera, or anything else. They'd be recognized, but any
> attempts to read from them would fail miserably, as would any attempt to
> format them.
>
> So, on a Linux machine, I stuck them in a USB adapter and did "dd
> if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda bs=512" on each of them, and then they worked just
> fine - and are still working now, a year or so later. If you don't have a
> Linux or Unix machine on which to perform that, you can boot to a Knoppix
> live-CD and do it as well.
>
> steve

Not being a Linux user, your command-line syntax is gobble-de-gook to
me, so I would be interested in a DOS or straight English translation of
what it does. If it can't be ported or replicated in DOS, I have a
bootable Linux CD with Knoppix, that I could use.

I have printed your post for future reference, thank you for the info.

Colin D.
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 5:06:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:06:14 +1200, Colin D, <ColinD@killspam.127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
>
> Steve Wolfe wrote:
> >
> > So, on a Linux machine, I stuck them in a USB adapter and did "dd
> > if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda bs=512" on each of them, and then they worked just
> > fine - and are still working now, a year or so later. If you don't have a
> > Linux or Unix machine on which to perform that, you can boot to a Knoppix
> > live-CD and do it as well.
> >
> > steve
>
> Not being a Linux user, your command-line syntax is gobble-de-gook to
> me, so I would be interested in a DOS or straight English translation of
> what it does. If it can't be ported or replicated in DOS, I have a
> bootable Linux CD with Knoppix, that I could use.
>
> I have printed your post for future reference, thank you for the info.

It's not exactly the same, but the closest thing to a DOS/Windows
equivalant would be...
- stick the card in a USB adapter
- hope that Windows will recognize it as a "remote drive"
- use fdisk to delete all partitions on that "remote drive"

Put the card back in the camera, and try to get the camera format it.

--
Walter Dnes; my email address is *ALMOST* like wzaltdnes@waltdnes.org
Delete the "z" to get my real address. If that gets blocked, follow
the instructions at the end of the 550 message.
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 5:06:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

> Not being a Linux user, your command-line syntax is gobble-de-gook to
> me, so I would be interested in a DOS or straight English translation of
> what it does. If it can't be ported or replicated in DOS, I have a
> bootable Linux CD with Knoppix, that I could use.
>
> I have printed your post for future reference, thank you for the info.

It fills the card with zeros. The most important is the first sector of
the card, as it does more than just delete the partitions. You could just
fill the first sector like this:

dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda1 bs=512 count=1

But there are advantages to filling the entire card - the card is made to
be able to detect when it has failing cells, and to silently remap them. By
filling the entire card, you give it a chance to make sure that every cell
is writable, and remap cells if necessary. That brings us back to:

dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda1 bs=512

Which takes input from /dev/zero (which always gives you zeroes), and
writes them to the first partition on the first SCSI hard drive (which is
how Linux will recognize your flash card), and does it with a block size of
512 to write an entire sector at a time. If you wanted to get really anal,
you could fill the entire card with zeros, then FF, then zeros, etc., but
that's probably unnecessary.

steve
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 5:06:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

> It's not exactly the same, but the closest thing to a DOS/Windows
> equivalant would be...
> - stick the card in a USB adapter
> - hope that Windows will recognize it as a "remote drive"
> - use fdisk to delete all partitions on that "remote drive"
>
> Put the card back in the camera, and try to get the camera format it.

That's the closest to what I wrote, but still doesn't accomplish as much.
: )

steve
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 8:58:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

SVTKate wrote:
> "SleeperMan" <SleeperMan@too.sleepy> wrote
>
> Further
>> possibility would be to use them as two cards and thus double
>> available space, but have more risk involved.
>> Am i ahead of time or just stupid? :-)
>
>
> Actually... my Olympus E10 does exactly that. It uses smartmedia AND
> compact flash.
> You still get card failures now and then but I just think of it as
> what happened in the days of film. Say, you forgot to rewind the film
> and opened the door.
> Stuff happens and you lose pictures.
>
> Kate
> ,

hm...you have the point here...
Anonymous
August 13, 2005 12:29:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Walter Dnes (delete the 'z' to get my real address)" wrote:
>
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:06:14 +1200, Colin D, <ColinD@killspam.127.0.0.1> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Steve Wolfe wrote:
> > >
> > > So, on a Linux machine, I stuck them in a USB adapter and did "dd
> > > if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda bs=512" on each of them, and then they worked just
> > > fine - and are still working now, a year or so later. If you don't have a
> > > Linux or Unix machine on which to perform that, you can boot to a Knoppix
> > > live-CD and do it as well.
> > >
> > > steve
> >
> > Not being a Linux user, your command-line syntax is gobble-de-gook to
> > me, so I would be interested in a DOS or straight English translation of
> > what it does. If it can't be ported or replicated in DOS, I have a
> > bootable Linux CD with Knoppix, that I could use.
> >
> > I have printed your post for future reference, thank you for the info.
>
> It's not exactly the same, but the closest thing to a DOS/Windows
> equivalant would be...
> - stick the card in a USB adapter
> - hope that Windows will recognize it as a "remote drive"
> - use fdisk to delete all partitions on that "remote drive"
>
> Put the card back in the camera, and try to get the camera format it.
>
Thanks, Walter, for the 'translation'. Win does recognize the card as a
drive, but I'm not sure if I can point fdisk to it, have to have a look
at that. I've only ever used fdisk on a C: drive. I'll try it and see.

Colin D.
August 13, 2005 12:29:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Colin D wrote:
>
> "Walter Dnes (delete the 'z' to get my real address)" wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:06:14 +1200, Colin D, <ColinD@killspam.127.0.0.1> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Steve Wolfe wrote:
>>>
>>>> So, on a Linux machine, I stuck them in a USB adapter and did "dd
>>>>if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda bs=512" on each of them, and then they worked just
>>>>fine - and are still working now, a year or so later. If you don't have a
>>>>Linux or Unix machine on which to perform that, you can boot to a Knoppix
>>>>live-CD and do it as well.
>>>>
>>>>steve
>>>
>>> Not being a Linux user, your command-line syntax is gobble-de-gook to
>>> me, so I would be interested in a DOS or straight English translation of
>>> what it does. If it can't be ported or replicated in DOS, I have a
>>> bootable Linux CD with Knoppix, that I could use.
>>>
>>> I have printed your post for future reference, thank you for the info.
>>
>> It's not exactly the same, but the closest thing to a DOS/Windows
>>equivalant would be...
>> - stick the card in a USB adapter
>> - hope that Windows will recognize it as a "remote drive"
>> - use fdisk to delete all partitions on that "remote drive"
>>
>> Put the card back in the camera, and try to get the camera format it.
>>
>
> Thanks, Walter, for the 'translation'. Win does recognize the card as a
> drive, but I'm not sure if I can point fdisk to it, have to have a look
> at that. I've only ever used fdisk on a C: drive. I'll try it and see.
>
> Colin D.


I hadn't thought of that either. If the card's content is already
condemned, there's nothing to lose and everything to gain. I just tried
it and it worked. OTOH, the card wasn't previously horked, so if I knew
how to hork the card ...

--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'
Anonymous
August 13, 2005 8:17:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Jer wrote:
>
> Colin D wrote:
> >
> > "Walter Dnes (delete the 'z' to get my real address)" wrote:
> >
> >>On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:06:14 +1200, Colin D, <ColinD@killspam.127.0.0.1> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Steve Wolfe wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> So, on a Linux machine, I stuck them in a USB adapter and did "dd
> >>>>if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda bs=512" on each of them, and then they worked just
> >>>>fine - and are still working now, a year or so later. If you don't have a
> >>>>Linux or Unix machine on which to perform that, you can boot to a Knoppix
> >>>>live-CD and do it as well.
> >>>>
> >>>>steve
> >>>
> >>> Not being a Linux user, your command-line syntax is gobble-de-gook to
> >>> me, so I would be interested in a DOS or straight English translation of
> >>> what it does. If it can't be ported or replicated in DOS, I have a
> >>> bootable Linux CD with Knoppix, that I could use.
> >>>
> >>> I have printed your post for future reference, thank you for the info.
> >>
> >> It's not exactly the same, but the closest thing to a DOS/Windows
> >>equivalant would be...
> >> - stick the card in a USB adapter
> >> - hope that Windows will recognize it as a "remote drive"
> >> - use fdisk to delete all partitions on that "remote drive"
> >>
> >> Put the card back in the camera, and try to get the camera format it.
> >>
> >
> > Thanks, Walter, for the 'translation'. Win does recognize the card as a
> > drive, but I'm not sure if I can point fdisk to it, have to have a look
> > at that. I've only ever used fdisk on a C: drive. I'll try it and see.
> >
> > Colin D.
>
> I hadn't thought of that either. If the card's content is already
> condemned, there's nothing to lose and everything to gain. I just tried
> it and it worked. OTOH, the card wasn't previously horked, so if I knew
> how to hork the card ...
>
> --
> jer
> email reply - I am not a 'ten'

You encourage me. But I don't have a stuffed card as yet. And when I
do, I'll probably forget this gem. {:-)

Colin D.
Anonymous
August 13, 2005 8:19:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Steve Wolfe wrote:
>
> > Not being a Linux user, your command-line syntax is gobble-de-gook to
> > me, so I would be interested in a DOS or straight English translation of
> > what it does. If it can't be ported or replicated in DOS, I have a
> > bootable Linux CD with Knoppix, that I could use.
> >
> > I have printed your post for future reference, thank you for the info.
>
> It fills the card with zeros. The most important is the first sector of
> the card, as it does more than just delete the partitions. You could just
> fill the first sector like this:
>
> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda1 bs=512 count=1
>
> But there are advantages to filling the entire card - the card is made to
> be able to detect when it has failing cells, and to silently remap them. By
> filling the entire card, you give it a chance to make sure that every cell
> is writable, and remap cells if necessary. That brings us back to:
>
> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda1 bs=512
>
> Which takes input from /dev/zero (which always gives you zeroes), and
> writes them to the first partition on the first SCSI hard drive (which is
> how Linux will recognize your flash card), and does it with a block size of
> 512 to write an entire sector at a time. If you wanted to get really anal,
> you could fill the entire card with zeros, then FF, then zeros, etc., but
> that's probably unnecessary.
>
> steve

Ok, thanks for that. I can fill the card with zeros from Windows, using
Seagate's zerofill proggie. Great stuff.

Colin D.
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 1:27:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:54:27 -0600, Steve Wolfe, <unt@see-signature.com> wrote:

> That's the closest to what I wrote, but still doesn't accomplish as much.
> : )

Agreed; you're preaching to the choir; see my user-agent header.

--
Walter Dnes; my email address is *ALMOST* like wzaltdnes@waltdnes.org
Delete the "z" to get my real address. If that gets blocked, follow
the instructions at the end of the 550 message.
!