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WoW: How do OTHER mmogs handle kill stealing and ninja loo..

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Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 9, 2005 6:08:40 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

World of Warcraft is my first MMOG. I'd been aware of the genre for a
long time, but was wary due to all the horror stories I'd heard about
people losing experience and loot to other players (as well as other
things, but that's for another post).

I picked WoW for two main reasons. First, I saw screenshots of players
on gryphons and that just looked so damn cool. Second, Blizzard made
it very clear in interviews that they were working to eliminate kill
stealing and ninja looting.

The way it works in WoW is this: If a solo player is the first to
attack a mob, that player gets full experience and exclusive access to
loot once the mob dies, even if other people rush in to help. If
grouped, the rule extends to nearby party members- however XP is
distributed based on player level, and non-quest loot is distributed
based on group loot rules. Regardless, no one outside the group gets
any loot or XP. The only exception with mobs is skinning- ANYONE can
skin a corpse, as long as it's been looted first.

So my question is this: How do other games handle these things? And
more specifically, which games allow you to swipe XP and loot off of
other players (so that I might avoid those games) and which others
protect players like WoW does (so that I might consider them for the
future)?

Thanks!
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 9, 2005 8:57:07 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

sanjian wrote:

> That's true for the first generation of MMORPGs, generally. With EQ2, they
> locked the encounter. Once you engaged an enemy, nobody else could land a
> hit or a heal unless you /yelled for help. If you did that, however, all XP
> went away (as well as loot, IIRC).

You mean you can't even help someone in trouble until they /yell for
it? That's awful, if true! I save fellow adventurers all the time-
always trying to pick a mob they've already tapped so as not to steal
their rewards.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 9, 2005 10:13:18 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Josh Mayfield wrote:
> World of Warcraft is my first MMOG. I'd been aware of the genre for a
> long time, but was wary due to all the horror stories I'd heard about
> people losing experience and loot to other players (as well as other
> things, but that's for another post).
>
> I picked WoW for two main reasons. First, I saw screenshots of
> players on gryphons and that just looked so damn cool. Second,
> Blizzard made it very clear in interviews that they were working to
> eliminate kill stealing and ninja looting.
>
> The way it works in WoW is this: If a solo player is the first to
> attack a mob, that player gets full experience and exclusive access to
> loot once the mob dies, even if other people rush in to help. If
> grouped, the rule extends to nearby party members- however XP is
> distributed based on player level, and non-quest loot is distributed
> based on group loot rules. Regardless, no one outside the group gets
> any loot or XP. The only exception with mobs is skinning- ANYONE can
> skin a corpse, as long as it's been looted first.
>
> So my question is this: How do other games handle these things? And
> more specifically, which games allow you to swipe XP and loot off of
> other players (so that I might avoid those games) and which others
> protect players like WoW does (so that I might consider them for the
> future)?
>
> Thanks!

Well, CoH handles the problem by not having any loot to steal, and awarding
experience based on a percentage of damage done, so long as the mobs aren't
out of the attacker's level range, IIRC.

EQ2 just locks everything down depending on who hits first. That made for a
lot of mob camping when the game was new, but I've recently started playing
again and don't find that to be much of a problem. And of course, ninja
looting in their system just can't happen.

Guild Wars isn't really a MMORPG, but it's a cousin I suppose. Anyway, all
the loot/mobs drops in instances, so the only folks with a shot at any of it
are those in your group. No camping, no ninja looting or kill stealing at
all to worry about the way GW does things. Overall though, it's not that
much fun.

--
chainbreaker
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Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 10, 2005 1:15:23 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

> The way it works in WoW is this: If a solo player is the first to
> attack a mob, that player gets full experience and exclusive access to
> loot once the mob dies, even if other people rush in to help. If
> grouped, the rule extends to nearby party members- however XP is
> distributed based on player level, and non-quest loot is distributed
> based on group loot rules. Regardless, no one outside the group gets
> any loot or XP. The only exception with mobs is skinning- ANYONE can
> skin a corpse, as long as it's been looted first.
>
> So my question is this: How do other games handle these things? And
> more specifically, which games allow you to swipe XP and loot off of
> other players (so that I might avoid those games) and which others
> protect players like WoW does (so that I might consider them for the
> future)?
>
> Thanks!
>

In EQ, nothing keeps you from stealing someone's kill, if you can do more
damage you get the kill credit. Looting, you then have aprox. 2 minutes to
loot the corpse, after 2 minutes anyone can loot the corpse. Group looting
anyone can grab anything off the corpse, though there is a message presented
to the whole party what they took (used to not do this), and on raid mobs
GM's have been known to fix ninja looting issues. Also in EQ only one person
can loot at a time, effectively "locking" the corpse. DAOC anyone can kill
steal again, but looting is limited to the killer and thier group, no one
else can pick up the stuff.
The only thing I wish WoW did was unlock the corpses for anyone in the party
after 1 minute (30 seconds?) and for anyone after 2 minutes, so skinners
could skin stuff unlooted.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 10, 2005 1:15:24 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

orad wrote:

>> So my question is this: How do other games handle these things? And
>> more specifically, which games allow you to swipe XP and loot off of
>> other players (so that I might avoid those games) and which others
>> protect players like WoW does (so that I might consider them for the
>> future)?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>
> In EQ, nothing keeps you from stealing someone's kill, if you can do
> more damage you get the kill credit. Looting, you then have aprox. 2
> minutes to loot the corpse, after 2 minutes anyone can loot the
> corpse. Group looting anyone can grab anything off the corpse, though
> there is a message presented to the whole party what they took (used
> to not do this), and on raid mobs GM's have been known to fix ninja
> looting issues. Also in EQ only one person can loot at a time,
> effectively "locking" the corpse. DAOC anyone can kill steal again,
> but looting is limited to the killer and thier group, no one else can
> pick up the stuff.

That's true for the first generation of MMORPGs, generally. With EQ2, they
locked the encounter. Once you engaged an enemy, nobody else could land a
hit or a heal unless you /yelled for help. If you did that, however, all XP
went away (as well as loot, IIRC).
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 10, 2005 4:59:26 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

In EVE Online they have a generally more harsh environment. There is
no safe places; anyone can take anything and kill anyone. It's pvp
everywhere even between grouped people and if you are killed by a
player they can loot you for your equiped belongings.

This means that if a group member ninja loots or behaves badly the
rest of the group just do what's natural. Kill the offender and
distribute his stuff between themselves.

I really like this approach as it becomes self regulating; you just
don't betray your team.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 10, 2005 6:52:32 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Reminds me of hanging out in the old Felucca years and years ago with a few
reds. What you kill you keep.


"Josh Mayfield" <ultibloo-usenet@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1118351320.944264.246740@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> World of Warcraft is my first MMOG. I'd been aware of the genre for a
> long time, but was wary due to all the horror stories I'd heard about
> people losing experience and loot to other players (as well as other
> things, but that's for another post).
>
> I picked WoW for two main reasons. First, I saw screenshots of players
> on gryphons and that just looked so damn cool. Second, Blizzard made
> it very clear in interviews that they were working to eliminate kill
> stealing and ninja looting.
>
> The way it works in WoW is this: If a solo player is the first to
> attack a mob, that player gets full experience and exclusive access to
> loot once the mob dies, even if other people rush in to help. If
> grouped, the rule extends to nearby party members- however XP is
> distributed based on player level, and non-quest loot is distributed
> based on group loot rules. Regardless, no one outside the group gets
> any loot or XP. The only exception with mobs is skinning- ANYONE can
> skin a corpse, as long as it's been looted first.
>
> So my question is this: How do other games handle these things? And
> more specifically, which games allow you to swipe XP and loot off of
> other players (so that I might avoid those games) and which others
> protect players like WoW does (so that I might consider them for the
> future)?
>
> Thanks!
>
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 10, 2005 7:36:23 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

>Well, CoH handles the problem by not having any loot to steal, and awarding
>experience based on a percentage of damage done, so long as the mobs aren't
>out of the attacker's level range, IIRC.

Well there's no loot in the traditional mmorpg sense but you get
enhancements, influence (COH name for money) and inspirations from
mobs. These automatically get distributed around the team (not sure of
the exact rules). Exp isn't just based on damage. Since, as a healer
I've done entire missions without attacking anything and I still get
exp each time a mob dies. The most noticeable factor is the level of
the mob compared to you. Basically the bigger the gap the more exp you
get.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 10, 2005 10:18:29 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

>>>
You mean you can't even help someone in trouble until they /yell for
it? That's awful, if true! I save fellow adventurers all the time-
always trying to pick a mob they've already tapped so as not to steal
their rewards
>>>
I actually prefer it that way. In WoW I think it's stupid that I touch
a mob for 1 damage, then someone destroys the mob and I get all the
experience for that. It's the perfect powerleveling setting.
If you attack a mob you should be confident that you can kill it, or at
least have a planned escape route.
I remember when I first started WoW and I attacked something, and
suddenly someone started whacking my mob I was like 'Hey! that's my
mob' lol. I didn't know I would get all the exp, but after I learned
that, I still didn't want people helping. I play the game for the
thrill, not to be hand-lead by others.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 10, 2005 10:22:30 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

>>>
Well there's no loot in the traditional mmorpg sense but you get
enhancements, influence (COH name for money) and inspirations from
mobs. These automatically get distributed around the team (not sure of
the exact rules). Exp isn't just based on damage. Since, as a healer
I've done entire missions without attacking anything and I still get
exp each time a mob dies. The most noticeable factor is the level of
the mob compared to you. Basically the bigger the gap the more exp you
get.
>>>
Well that's because you're in a group. When in a group you get equal
share of exp.
He was talking about out of group. If you're alone and attack
something and do 60 damage, and another person attacks it too and does
40 damage, you get 60% of exp and they get 40%. It's rather fair, and
I like it more than the 'all or nothing' approach of WoW or the 'locked
encounter' of EQ2
June 10, 2005 4:39:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.games.warcraft.]
On 2005-06-09, Josh Mayfield <ultibloo-usenet@yahoo.com> wrote:
> World of Warcraft is my first MMOG. I'd been aware of the genre for a
> long time, but was wary due to all the horror stories I'd heard about
> people losing experience and loot to other players (as well as other
> things, but that's for another post).
>
> I picked WoW for two main reasons. First, I saw screenshots of players
> on gryphons and that just looked so damn cool. Second, Blizzard made
> it very clear in interviews that they were working to eliminate kill
> stealing and ninja looting.

stealing and ninja looting aren't as big of a problem as you
think. whiners just make a big deal out of it.
June 10, 2005 6:49:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:39:00 -0500, shadows <shadows@whitefang.com>
dared speak in front of ME:

>["Followup-To:" header set to alt.games.warcraft.]
>On 2005-06-09, Josh Mayfield <ultibloo-usenet@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> World of Warcraft is my first MMOG. I'd been aware of the genre for a
>> long time, but was wary due to all the horror stories I'd heard about
>> people losing experience and loot to other players (as well as other
>> things, but that's for another post).
>>
>> I picked WoW for two main reasons. First, I saw screenshots of players
>> on gryphons and that just looked so damn cool. Second, Blizzard made
>> it very clear in interviews that they were working to eliminate kill
>> stealing and ninja looting.
>
>stealing and ninja looting aren't as big of a problem as you
>think. whiners just make a big deal out of it.

Spoken like a man who enjoys being a killthief and ninja looter.

--
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gafgirl1@2allstream3.net

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Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 10, 2005 11:54:29 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

<wolfing1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1118409509.713017.154000@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>>>>
> You mean you can't even help someone in trouble until they /yell for
> it? That's awful, if true! I save fellow adventurers all the time-
> always trying to pick a mob they've already tapped so as not to steal
> their rewards
>>>>
> I actually prefer it that way. In WoW I think it's stupid that I touch
> a mob for 1 damage, then someone destroys the mob and I get all the
> experience for that. It's the perfect powerleveling setting.

No, if the person who destroys the mob is much higher level, then the tagger
gets very little xp. (and the destroyer stilll gets 0)
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 10, 2005 11:55:01 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

>That works best in a game where death matters. Alas, in WoW, you're more likely just to be >bitched at for throttling the flow of XP.

After playing a healer in every MMO I played, I finally took a break
from healing and groups so I have no direct healing experience in WoW.
I'm playing an undead Warlock and mostly going solo.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 11, 2005 2:32:59 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Lorad" <jeff_nospam@hotmail.come> wrote:

>The only thing I wish WoW did was unlock the corpses for anyone in the party
>after 1 minute (30 seconds?) and for anyone after 2 minutes, so skinners
>could skin stuff unlooted.

I wish that, too. I'm a bona fide loot whore, and it makes my teeth
itch to see corpses sitting around unlooted. Considering how tight
money is in this game, I'm not too proud to pick up copper-value loot
if I could.


--
Exodus 22:18 can kiss my pagan ass
www.lokari.net
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 11, 2005 2:47:48 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

shadows wrote:
> ["Followup-To:" header set to alt.games.warcraft.]
> On 2005-06-09, Josh Mayfield <ultibloo-usenet@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> World of Warcraft is my first MMOG. I'd been aware of the genre for
>> a long time, but was wary due to all the horror stories I'd heard
>> about people losing experience and loot to other players (as well as
>> other things, but that's for another post).
>>
>> I picked WoW for two main reasons. First, I saw screenshots of
>> players on gryphons and that just looked so damn cool. Second,
>> Blizzard made it very clear in interviews that they were working to
>> eliminate kill stealing and ninja looting.
>
> stealing and ninja looting aren't as big of a problem as you
> think. whiners just make a big deal out of it.

If you mean that as in they're not that commonplace, sure. If you mean it
as in not something worth complaining about, you've got alot of explaining
to do.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 11, 2005 2:57:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:39:00 -0500, shadows <shadows@whitefang.com>
wrotC:D RIVE_E

>stealing and ninja looting aren't as big of a problem as you
>think. whiners just make a big deal out of it.

Generally speaking, the only folks who say that are those who do it...
*----------------------------------------------------*
Evolution doesn't take prisoners:Lizard
"I've heard of this thing men call 'empathy', but I've never
once been afflicted with it, thanks the Gods." Bruno The Bandit
http://www.mrlizard.com
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 11, 2005 3:46:33 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

>I wish that, too. I'm a bona fide loot whore, and it makes my teeth itch to see corpses sitting around >unlooted. Considering how tight money is in this game, I'm not too proud to pick up copper-value >loot if I could.

I totally agree, I see nothing wrong with picking up abandoned,
unclaimed loot. I used to build my initial stake in UO and old EQ by
risking higher level areas to scrounge loot that was left on the
ground, I just made sure that it was unwanted by the person who had the
legitimate claim
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 11, 2005 6:05:09 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

In article <1118351320.944264.246740@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Josh Mayfield" <ultibloo-usenet@yahoo.com> wrote:
> So my question is this: How do other games handle these things? And
> more specifically, which games allow you to swipe XP and loot off of
> other players (so that I might avoid those games) and which others
> protect players like WoW does (so that I might consider them for the
> future)?

(I haven't played some of these in a while, so details might be wrong.
I'll also answer some questions you didn't ask).

In EQ1, whoever does the most damage gets the credit for the kill and
gets looting rights. So, you can blatantly kill steal. If someone
helps you with the fight in a way that does not cause damage (buffing
you, healing you, slowing the mob), there is no risk that they will kill
steal.

In DAoC, experience for a kill is split among people. So, if you and I
both run up to the same mob and start whacking away, we'll each get
about half of the experience. If someone heals you during a fight, they
will take a little bit of the experience.

In EQ2, once a fight starts, it is "locked". No one else can damage the
mob, get credit for the kill, OR HELP YOU. (This was one of the reasons
I quite EQ2. If I'm playing a class that has buffing or healing, and
I'm running along and see someone in trouble, I want to be able to help
them, and save the day. In EQ2, they can't be helped unless they
abandon the fight. They can then be helped, but no one can get credit
for the kill then. So, basically, help is limited to helping someone
who has given up stay alive. You can't help them *win*).


--
--Tim Smith
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 11, 2005 6:09:48 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

In article <1118409509.713017.154000@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
wolfing1@yahoo.com wrote:
> I actually prefer it that way. In WoW I think it's stupid that I touch
> a mob for 1 damage, then someone destroys the mob and I get all the
> experience for that. It's the perfect powerleveling setting.

If they are high enough level to destroy the mob, you won't get
experience. WoW looks at the level difference between the players (and
I think it also takes into account the mob level compared to the player
who hit first), and reduces the experience dramatically in blatant
powerleveling settings.

--
--Tim Smith
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 11, 2005 3:33:51 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Alex Mars" <demiurge@alexmars.com> wrote:

>I used to build my initial stake in UO and old EQ by
>risking higher level areas to scrounge loot that was left on the
>ground, I just made sure that it was unwanted by the person who
>had the legitimate claim

Ditto. And making sure it was ok was easy with that two minute
timeout. Anyone who hadn't looted in that time (except, obviously,
raid and boss situations) didn't want it.

I used to run my newbie characters from Freeport down to the desert of
Ro, where all the high levels were constantly racing around killing
everything to get some special sand giant to spawn, and nothing was
ever looted.
--
Exodus 22:18 can kiss my pagan ass
www.lokari.net
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 13, 2005 2:01:11 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Tim Smith wrote:
> In article <1118409509.713017.154000@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> wolfing1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> I actually prefer it that way. In WoW I think it's stupid that I touch
>> a mob for 1 damage, then someone destroys the mob and I get all the
>> experience for that. It's the perfect powerleveling setting.
>
> If they are high enough level to destroy the mob, you won't get
> experience. WoW looks at the level difference between the players (and
> I think it also takes into account the mob level compared to the player
> who hit first), and reduces the experience dramatically in blatant
> powerleveling settings.

I believe that the exact mechanics are that the player/group who tagged
the mob gets XP based on how much damage they did the mob as a
percentage. Any player who's not in the tagger's group get nothing,
regardless of how much damage they did. Players who *are* in the
tagger's group, and are 'close enough' to the mob all get an equal share
of the remaining XP. Then a diminishing returns formula is applied based
on the mob's level relative to the player getting the XP.

The ideal 'powerlevelling' setup is a lowbie grouped with a level 60.
However, having done this from time to time myself (typically, twinking
or being twinked through unpopular instances), the XP returns are far
from impressive. The lowbie is only getting half the XP per mob, and
once you factor in the overhead involved simply in moving between mob to
mob, the XP rate actually feels about the same as good old-fashioned
non-elite green-grinding.

--
Remove the mess to reply.
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