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the economy in WoW?

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Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 11, 2005 6:50:07 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Is the economy in this game "open" or "closed"?
Another way to put it: Is the economy integrated?

Are the vendor fees, AH auto-prices, and drop amounts all integrated so that
each affects the others? Like a certain amount of gold in the economy and
shifting around? Remember UO? Ultima Online. I *think* it was at least
partly like that but not sure.

What brought me to the question of whether this economy is like that or not,
is a discussion with my roommate about people who buy WoW gold with real
life dollars. How are they affecting the "economy" in WoW, if at all? I say
they are stimulating the "economy" and that the price of things is *not*
interrelated. My roommate says the "economy" in WoW is all integrated and
that dropping "new" money into that economy can cause an economic problem.

The only way I see farmers being a problem is when I'm looking for a
specific herb and guess what? The area it grows in is constantly camped by a
farmer so I can never get that herb except through AH.

--
Munk
52.8 druid
Laughing Skull

More about : economy wow

Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 11, 2005 7:36:20 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Just as an exercise, in what way to you claim people buying gold with
real dollars are stimulating the WoW economy? Conversely, what
economic problem does your roommate claim this will cause?

Looking at your roommate's theory, buying gold with real dollars does
not directly increase the total amount of gold on the server. Thus, it
has no direct effect. If the fact that certain people *will* buy gold
with real dollars causes certain other people to farm gold, who would
not otherwise have done so, then there will be an effect. The effect
is likely inflationary pressure on the virtual money supply...the real
value of each individual gold piece will go down as the number of gold
pieces goes up.

I'm not sure the effect is significant, and I'm not sure it isn't.
Obviously, there has been inflation in the game, but it is not possible
to say how much of it is caused by gold farming for real dollar sale.
It is possible the starting state of the economy was simply
unsustainably immature, and that a steady state will eventually be
reached. I would like to think so.

Looking at your theory, I don't see any stimulant effects of buying
gold with real dollars. Either there is no change to the supply of
gold on the server, or there is a change with it's associated
inflationary pressures, but in neither case should this result in
additional production (by crafters or farmers for example).

I have been away from the game for a while...working...and had hoped
the built in money sinks and non-transferability of items once bound to
a character would keep inflationary pressure to a minimum...sorry to
hear this apparently not the case.

rcm

Scotter wrote:
> Is the economy in this game "open" or "closed"?
> Another way to put it: Is the economy integrated?
>
> Are the vendor fees, AH auto-prices, and drop amounts all integrated so that
> each affects the others? Like a certain amount of gold in the economy and
> shifting around? Remember UO? Ultima Online. I *think* it was at least
> partly like that but not sure.
>
> What brought me to the question of whether this economy is like that or not,
> is a discussion with my roommate about people who buy WoW gold with real
> life dollars. How are they affecting the "economy" in WoW, if at all? I say
> they are stimulating the "economy" and that the price of things is *not*
> interrelated. My roommate says the "economy" in WoW is all integrated and
> that dropping "new" money into that economy can cause an economic problem.
>
> The only way I see farmers being a problem is when I'm looking for a
> specific herb and guess what? The area it grows in is constantly camped by a
> farmer so I can never get that herb except through AH.
>
> --
> Munk
> 52.8 druid
> Laughing Skull
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 11, 2005 8:44:36 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

>
> What brought me to the question of whether this economy is like that or
> not, is a discussion with my roommate about people who buy WoW gold with
> real life dollars. How are they affecting the "economy" in WoW, if at all?
> I say they are stimulating the "economy" and that the price of things is
> *not* interrelated. My roommate says the "economy" in WoW is all
> integrated and that dropping "new" money into that economy can cause an
> economic problem.
>
> The only way I see farmers being a problem is when I'm looking for a
> specific herb and guess what? The area it grows in is constantly camped by
> a farmer so I can never get that herb except through AH.
>

- I'm not sure about integration.

However, if people are using 'real' money (ie. Currency) to buy Gold on WoW,
I presume they are buying it from other players?
Thus there is no change to the 'economy' as such, simply money being
transferred around

Unless you can buy the gold from Blizzard, making 'new gold' which would
effectively (if integrated) cause some kind of inflationary effect....

Of course the AH depends, like most other markets on supply and demand, and
fluctuates accordingly.
Related resources
June 11, 2005 6:47:56 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

> What brought me to the question of whether this economy is like that or
> not,
> is a discussion with my roommate about people who buy WoW gold with real
> life dollars. How are they affecting the "economy" in WoW, if at all? I
> say they are stimulating the "economy" and that the price of things is
> *not* interrelated. My roommate says the "economy" in WoW is all
> integrated and that dropping "new" money into that economy can cause an
> economic problem.

I think the problem is that selling gold to players skews the economy. The
game is balanced so that players just get by for the lower levels, then have
more cash to blow after level 40 or so.

If a player ebays a load of gold at level 10 he can afford to pay top money
for all his upgrades from the auction house. Now, this won't matter much if
one person does it, but if a lot of players do it, then sellers will realize
they can get more for their items than they could in the past, and put the
price up accordingly. This means players who 'play the game' either have to
pay more, make do without, or ebay gold themselves.

The one argument I can see against this is that lower level players will
receive more for their sales and this will compensate for the increased
prices they have to pay. However, this is not really acceptable either
unless there is some method of increasing the vendor prices to reflect the
inflation caused by everyone's increased wealth.

I think Blizz have generally done a good job of taking resources out of the
game (bandages, BoE etc) to reduce 'mudflation' but the dedicated activities
of purely comercially minded players will, I feel, undermine these efforts
and make WoW a less fun place.

All that aside, this is a game and people who ebay gold aren't playing a
game, they are running a business and their activities should not be allowed
in a recreational environment. Hell, I even change TV channels when the
adverts come on, and at least those guys are subsidising my viewing.

- Fallout
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 11, 2005 11:28:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Michael Vondung" <mvondung@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9j9qtqckss7h.1en2t8pbx6dao.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:52:58 -0700, Brian wrote:
>> Unless there is a large and continuous sink to drain gold out of the
>> economy (and there always is, but I don't believe that the one in WoW is
>> nearly large enough to compensate) then the total amount of gold in the
>> economy increases without bound.
>
> There really aren't any significant money sinks in WoW, true. Once you
> have
> your epic mount (and it's not as difficult to get as most people below
> sixty think -- I had mine two weeks after I hit sixty, and I farmed for
> it,
> didn't mine or skin), there is essentially no money sink left. Well, I
> guess repair costs count as money sinks, but that's not a real factor. I
> make more money on every non-MC/Onyxia raid/crawl than the adventure costs
> me (repairs, potions, candles). And if I die ten times in Onyxia's lair,
> it's still only five gold or so. Half the trouble is that you never really
> lose anything in WoW. Your equipment always remains with you, and there is
> zero risk of losing anything you own. Death in WoW is without any real
> consequences.

Gambling NPC similar to Gheed in D2?
A hardcore realm for the players that think things are too easy. This could
also work similar to D2, if you die in battle, you die. i.e. Your character
and all his items are deleted and you are left with a ghost in your login
window. "ouch"

> Unlike UO, WoW is not designed to be a persistent long-term experience,
> and
> unlike UO, it doesn't feel like an actual "world". WoW offers a year worth
> of content for casual players, and about three to four month for the
> "ambitioned" player who isn't into PvP. For PvP-interested folks, the game
> probably offers some infinite "hunting after the carrot" kind of
> entertainment or swapping of honour points, but that's not for everyone.
> My
> first two months of being sixty were fun, but right now I'm only logging
> into the game when we have a Molten Core or Onyxia run scheduled. (These
> do
> justify the subscription fee to me.)

As long as Blizzard sticks to it's promise of a continuous stream of new
content I'll be happy. Increased level cap, Legendary items, new high level
maps and instances... yummy.

> Not even for the items, but because that's one of the few challenges left
> for a PvE player. I loved Dire Maul, and I really wish there were more
> interesting five-people instances (did Scholomance with five people also,
> but it's boring compared to Dire Maul). Those 10/15 people raids don't
> appeal to you anymore once you have your blue set complete and gotten
> every
> item you want from Strat/Scholo/UBRS ... it's so easy that you can
> literally watch TV while doing these (as a priest anyway, but that's all
> I'm playing). Some of my friends have started twinks, but, eh, I tried
> that, and it didn't appeal to me. The quests are the same, the instances
> are the same, and WoW isn't really a strategically very deep game for the
> most part (Molten Core and Onyxia do require tactics), especially when you
> have seen everything. Anyway, I like my character, and I don't enjoy
> starting a new one.
<snip>

I envy those that start a character and play that one toon to 60 without any
inclination to play other race, class or faction, and to use different
armour and weapons, play with talent builds etc etc. I have about 15 toons
scattered over 3 servers and my main (58 Priest) has payed the price by
leveling very slowly. :) 

cheers,
Stu.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 11, 2005 11:28:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

>
> A hardcore realm for the players that think things are too easy. This could
> also work similar to D2, if you die in battle, you die. i.e. Your character
> and all his items are deleted and you are left with a ghost in your login
> window. "ouch"
>

Good lord! That would be quite something. Seeing a character over
level 15 would be a shock. I'd give it a try, but if I made it to 20 I
would probably stop for fear of dying.

Shadrack
June 12, 2005 12:15:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

3phase wrote:

> I envy those that start a character and play that one toon to 60 without any
> inclination to play other race, class or faction, and to use different
> armour and weapons, play with talent builds etc etc. I have about 15 toons
> scattered over 3 servers and my main (58 Priest) has payed the price by
> leveling very slowly. :) 

<snip>

I don't envy them. I have 25 characters on 5 servers. 1 level 60, 1
level 47, 1, level 38, 1 level 31.

All races, both factions, all classes.

I play so many because I like it, and I like all the races and all the
classes.

I play Orcs the least, for whatever reason, and trolls and gnomes the
most. The only class I find less than fully engaging is Paladin; I have
to spice up my life to make them interesting to play--for example by
making a paladin who never used any armor or weapons and always walked
everywhere. I named him Lester and dressed him like a farmworker.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 12, 2005 12:15:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

mikel wrote:
> 3phase wrote:
>
>> I envy those that start a character and play that one toon to 60
>> without any inclination to play other race, class or faction, and to
>> use different armour and weapons, play with talent builds etc etc. I have
>> about 15 toons scattered over 3 servers and my main (58
>> Priest) has payed the price by leveling very slowly. :) 
>
> <snip>
>
> I don't envy them. I have 25 characters on 5 servers. 1 level 60, 1
> level 47, 1, level 38, 1 level 31.
>
> All races, both factions, all classes.
>
> I play so many because I like it, and I like all the races and all the
> classes.
>
> I play Orcs the least, for whatever reason, and trolls and gnomes the
> most. The only class I find less than fully engaging is Paladin; I
> have to spice up my life to make them interesting to play--for example by
> making a paladin who never used any armor or weapons and always walked
> everywhere. I named him Lester and dressed him like a farmworker.

I will say that playing a paladin in this game just isn't as fun as other
games, even those where we were really were gimped (EQ). The play really is
too automatic. I don't agree that we're overpowered (if anyone thinks
that's the case, maybe they should learn how to play their classes), but
rather that we are almost like EQ warriors were - autotanks. We're not
horribly difficult to play, but at the same time, few options means few
chances to shine. We're the exact opposite of an EQ bard.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 12, 2005 2:37:43 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Shadrack ytrede sig i
<TRDqe.2831$VK4.2004@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net> med dette:

>
>>
>> A hardcore realm for the players that think things are too easy. This could
>> also work similar to D2, if you die in battle, you die. i.e. Your character
>> and all his items are deleted and you are left with a ghost in your login
>> window. "ouch"
>>
>
>Good lord! That would be quite something. Seeing a character over
>level 15 would be a shock. I'd give it a try, but if I made it to 20 I
>would probably stop for fear of dying.

I got a lvl 19 mage, that has only died once, and it was because of lag
followed by a disconnect. I'm in no doubt that I can easily get a char
past lvl 25 without dying, but it'll be without doing any instances
before they're way below the intented level.

I started out playing a morpg with some harsh penalties for dying, and
it still haunts me, so my playstyle is way more defensive and slow
progressing than most, and I rarely dies when soloing.
--
Allan Stig Kiilerich Frederiksen
"When you try to change a mans paradigm, you must keep in mind that he
can hear you only through the filter of the paradigm he holds."
-Myron Tribus
June 12, 2005 6:04:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

sanjian wrote:
> mikel wrote:
>
>>3phase wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I envy those that start a character and play that one toon to 60
>>>without any inclination to play other race, class or faction, and to
>>>use different armour and weapons, play with talent builds etc etc. I have
>>>about 15 toons scattered over 3 servers and my main (58
>>>Priest) has payed the price by leveling very slowly. :) 
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>I don't envy them. I have 25 characters on 5 servers. 1 level 60, 1
>>level 47, 1, level 38, 1 level 31.
>>
>>All races, both factions, all classes.
>>
>>I play so many because I like it, and I like all the races and all the
>>classes.
>>
>>I play Orcs the least, for whatever reason, and trolls and gnomes the
>>most. The only class I find less than fully engaging is Paladin; I
>>have to spice up my life to make them interesting to play--for example by
>>making a paladin who never used any armor or weapons and always walked
>>everywhere. I named him Lester and dressed him like a farmworker.
>
>
> I will say that playing a paladin in this game just isn't as fun as other
> games, even those where we were really were gimped (EQ). The play really is
> too automatic. I don't agree that we're overpowered (if anyone thinks
> that's the case, maybe they should learn how to play their classes), but
> rather that we are almost like EQ warriors were - autotanks.

<snip>

Yeah, I think that sums it up. Playing a paladin is a little too routine
to be really engaging. I have to do something or other to it to mess
up the routine. :-)
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 12, 2005 2:11:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

quote:"> A hardcore realm for the players that think things are too easy.
This could
> also work similar to D2, if you die in battle, you die. i.e. Your
> character and all his items are deleted and you are left with a ghost in
> your login window. "ouch"


That's not fun, how many times doing the same lv 1 stuff over and over would
it take to completely frustrate the average, normal gamer?

That might be a good game for a Masochist, but I venture to say not for your
average gamer...

frustrating gameplay does not equate to fun in any way shape or form.
"Shadrack" <noemail@noemail.com> wrote in message
news:TRDqe.2831$VK4.2004@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
>>
>> A hardcore realm for the players that think things are too easy. This
>> could also work similar to D2, if you die in battle, you die. i.e. Your
>> character and all his items are deleted and you are left with a ghost in
>> your login window. "ouch"
>>
>
> Good lord! That would be quite something. Seeing a character over level
> 15 would be a shock. I'd give it a try, but if I made it to 20 I would
> probably stop for fear of dying.
>
> Shadrack
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 13, 2005 9:40:54 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

> There's already some effect in WoW. Check the auction house price of the
> average low-level blue item. Without exception, they are *far* beyond the
> price range of any level-appropriate character. The only people that are
> buying blues are auctioneers buying them to resell higher, and L60
> characters twinking out their alts.
>

Not sure I agree completely. I recently switched servers, and Ive been able
to buy myself Blue, and recently a purple weapon. I skin and mine though, so
im richer than most, and I probably sell a lot more in the AH that others
just sell to vendors. So many people just sell green weapons and armor at
vendors, when they could be getting far beter prices at the AH, or
disenchanting it with an alt and getting better prices still.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 13, 2005 9:53:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

> A hardcore realm for the players that think things are too easy. This
> could also work similar to D2, if you die in battle, you die. i.e. Your
> character and all his items are deleted and you are left with a ghost in
> your login window. "ouch"
>

ouch especially since its almost guarenteed that death would be the result
of losing connection. Sorry but losing hours of playtime from link death in
everquest was enough for me, and not having to fear it in WOW is one of the
games great strengths. All a 60 could brag about is how good their ISP was.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 13, 2005 12:32:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"ASIO" <asio@gov.au> wrote:

>>
>> What brought me to the question of whether this economy is like that or
>> not, is a discussion with my roommate about people who buy WoW gold with
>> real life dollars. How are they affecting the "economy" in WoW, if at all?
>> I say they are stimulating the "economy" and that the price of things is
>> *not* interrelated. My roommate says the "economy" in WoW is all
>> integrated and that dropping "new" money into that economy can cause an
>> economic problem.
>>
>> The only way I see farmers being a problem is when I'm looking for a
>> specific herb and guess what? The area it grows in is constantly camped by
>> a farmer so I can never get that herb except through AH.

You'd realize the problem when you see a simple level 40 epic item in the AH
and know you can never use it, because the buyout price is 400g.

> - I'm not sure about integration.
>
> However, if people are using 'real' money (ie. Currency) to buy Gold on WoW,
> I presume they are buying it from other players?
> Thus there is no change to the 'economy' as such, simply money being
> transferred around
>
> Unless you can buy the gold from Blizzard, making 'new gold' which would
> effectively (if integrated) cause some kind of inflationary effect....

When there are 10 people on your server who make 100ets of gold per day each
it is a problem.

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (50) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (29) on DE Proudmoore [PvE]
June 13, 2005 4:53:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg.]
On 2005-06-11, Michael Vondung <mvondung@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:52:58 -0700, Brian wrote:

> Unlike UO, WoW is not designed to be a persistent long-term experience, and
> unlike UO, it doesn't feel like an actual "world". WoW offers a year worth
> of content for casual players, and about three to four month for the
> "ambitioned" player who isn't into PvP. For PvP-interested folks, the game
> probably offers some infinite "hunting after the carrot" kind of
> entertainment or swapping of honour points, but that's not for everyone. My
> first two months of being sixty were fun, but right now I'm only logging
> into the game when we have a Molten Core or Onyxia run scheduled. (These do
> justify the subscription fee to me.)

> Anyway, I like my character, and I don't enjoy
> starting a new one.

That explains a lot. Have you tried the various professions and
trading on the AH? It's a fairly involved market. Try
Herbalism/Alchemy sometime. I made the switch from
skinning/leatherworking. Trade professions are far more involved
and fresh because depending on what new quests or instances the
devs make. Different materials and goods sell more or less. For
example, healing potions and trolls blood went up a lot since
Battlegrounds came live.

I think your problem is that you played a priest to 60 and now
don't feel like redoing the same quests as before as another
character. Play one in another faction and you'll be doing
different quests. At least to start with.

> WoW never really had an era like this. The game is designed to be a fun
> experience, carefree and relaxed. That's really not a bad thing, since most
> people just don't enjoy lumbering virtual wood for hours to get their
> carpentry skill up by .1 :) .

Oh yeah? Try Herbalism or Mining.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 13, 2005 5:29:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 05:53:00 GMT, Vladesch wrote:

> All a 60 could brag about is how good their ISP was.

No, not really. Most wipes I have experienced were the direct result of
people playing poorly or without sufficient concentration. Even if someone
lags or loses connection, others can heal that person until they are back
or try to get aggro off of them. The former is a real advantage compared to
HC in D2.

I'd definitely want to try a HC mode in WoW, but I'd not play with random
groups. :) 

M.
--
ClamWin, an open source antivirus software for Windows:
http://www.clamwin.com/
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 13, 2005 5:46:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

In article <1lzhi2ihy8u2b$.jhf37fi9vnce$.dlg@40tude.net>,
mvondung@gmail.com says...
> On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 05:53:00 GMT, Vladesch wrote:
>
> > All a 60 could brag about is how good their ISP was.
>
> No, not really. Most wipes I have experienced were the direct result of
> people playing poorly or without sufficient concentration. Even if someone
> lags or loses connection, others can heal that person until they are back
> or try to get aggro off of them. The former is a real advantage compared to
> HC in D2.

I got killed by a lost connection while soloing in WOW. I was in no
danger otherwise - I had just been engeged by a monster that I could
have killed easily. But given a minute or too free rein, he was able
to finish my pet and then me...

- Gerry Quinn
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 13, 2005 6:56:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

>> The only way I see farmers being a problem is when I'm looking for a
>> specific herb and guess what? The area it grows in is constantly camped by
>> a farmer so I can never get that herb except through AH.
>
> You'd realize the problem when you see a simple level 40 epic item in the AH
> and know you can never use it, because the buyout price is 400g.

*shrug*

At level 32, I've got 10 blues, only two of which were passed on from
higher characters as freebies (one from my alliance char), and I got
them all because I made money from exploiting trends in the AH (stacks
of wool for 1g, stacks of copper bars for 2.5g due to an explosion in
lvl 60s becoming engineers for BG) and buying the ones that were for
sale for 10g or less.

As for not having that 400g epic item for a level 40....so? It's not
like it'll do you any good at level 60 and you certainly can do without
it until then. The one great thing about is that equipment only gets
you so far in this game. Back in the D2 days, there were builds that
were only possible if you had very specific items (such as the Melee
Sorc build) and you're not running into that so much here. Never mind
that epic items should be prohibitively expensive.

That said, the effect that gold farmers do have on the economy is an
overall problem, not just specific items. Gold farmers devalue items,
not inflate them. The problem is that they flood the market with item
X, causing a greater supply. As supply goes up, prices go down. Basic
economics. Epic items aren't being farmed by gold farmers, because the
drop is too low to be worthwhile. They're going after Arcane Crystals,
Essence of Water, etc. because those items have a substantive value and
have a predictable drop rate from mobs that don't provide any real
challenge. While this helps the buyers out there that don't want to
endure the mind numbing monotony of farming mobs for specific items, it
really screws the sellers that aren't gold farmers.

I remember the days of D2 and as long as items have a high gold cost,
things are actually working well. The day that gold no longer has any
value is the day that we start trading in duped SoJs again.

Regards,
Noal

--
Dharzhak - Night Elf Druid (60) on Stormrage [PvE]
Kemwer - Tauren Warrior (32) on Stormrage [PvE]
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 13, 2005 7:08:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

> There's already some effect in WoW. Check the auction house price
> of the average low-level blue item. Without exception, they are *far*
> beyond the price range of any level-appropriate character. The only
> people that are buying blues are auctioneers buying them to resell
> higher, and L60 characters twinking out their alts.

Not true. Of the 10 blues on my level 32, only 2 were handed to me by
other characters (one a higher level guildy and the other one I pitched
over the wall) and I still have over 35g. The 2 blues that I did get
from other toons represent the entirety of my "twinking" of this
character.

How? Buy taking up skinning/mining and selling the results on the AH.
When someone puts up resources far cheaper than the price I'm trying to
sell those same resources for, I buy them all up and resell them at the
price I want. If I get green BoEs in an instance run (or wherever) I
sell them on the AH for an appropriate price. Anyone can make a ton of
gold at lower levels if you sell resources and practice basic economic
principles.

Now that I'm on my 2nd toon, I understand the game's economy better and
that's the big difference.

Regards,
Noal

--
Dharzhak - Night Elf Druid (60) on Stormrage [PvE]
Kemwer - Tauren Warrior (32) on Stormrage [PvE]
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 14, 2005 9:51:25 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

> No offense, man. But this is something people in RL will get sued for
> (at least in europe), for it is considered a synthetical increase of prices.

And that's why I'm proud to be an American. :-D

Regards,
Noal

--
Dharzhak - Night Elf Druid (60) on Stormrage [PvE]
Kemwer - Tauren Warrior (32) on Stormrage [PvE]
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 14, 2005 12:41:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Noal McDonald wrote:
> Epic items aren't being farmed by gold farmers, because the drop is
> too low to be worthwhile. They're going after Arcane Crystals,
> Essence of Water, etc. because those items have a substantive value
> and have a predictable drop rate from mobs that don't provide any
> real challenge.

Not that this affects what you were saying, really, but farming for
Essence of Water or indeed anything else will also bring the "world
drop" Epics into the economy at much the same speed as doing anything
else, since they appear to have the same incredibly low droprate from
all mobs.

Cheers!
David...
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 14, 2005 3:32:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Noal McDonald" <dharzhak@my-deja.com> wrote:

>>> The only way I see farmers being a problem is when I'm looking for a
>>> specific herb and guess what? The area it grows in is constantly camped by
>>> a farmer so I can never get that herb except through AH.
>>
>> You'd realize the problem when you see a simple level 40 epic item in the AH
>> and know you can never use it, because the buyout price is 400g.
>
> *shrug*
>
> At level 32, I've got 10 blues, only two of which were passed on from
> higher characters as freebies (one from my alliance char), and I got
> them all because I made money from exploiting trends in the AH (stacks
> of wool for 1g, stacks of copper bars for 2.5g due to an explosion in
> lvl 60s becoming engineers for BG) and buying the ones that were for
> sale for 10g or less.
>
> As for not having that 400g epic item for a level 40....so? It's not
> like it'll do you any good at level 60 and you certainly can do without
> it until then. The one great thing about is that equipment only gets
> you so far in this game. Back in the D2 days, there were builds that
> were only possible if you had very specific items (such as the Melee
> Sorc build) and you're not running into that so much here.

The price of an epic (or any other item) is made by 3 factors:
- Supply
- Demand
- The amount of ingame cash

Without gold farmers, and disrespecting the fact that we can twink our
alts with gold from our mains, every level 40 (for example) has about
the same amount of gold. Those who have more are those who saved like
mad. And the amount of level 40 players who can afford an item for
400g is about 0. So, what happens? The price lowers until it comes
to a niveau where actually people can afford it.

With gold farmers, or with a character who has huge amounts of money
from his main, a level 40 epic item WILL sell for 400g. Because these
400g mean nothing for the seller.

> Never mind
> that epic items should be prohibitively expensive.

Sure. But it has to be possible to buy them. For a level 40, it's
impossible to buy a 400g item. If there wasn't an external cash
income (where external means the level 40 will get cash without
doing something for), the price would decrease until it's in a
range where someone is able to buy it.

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (50) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (29) on DE Proudmoore [PvE]
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 14, 2005 3:41:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Noal McDonald" <dharzhak@my-deja.com> wrote:

> When someone puts up resources far cheaper than the price I'm trying to
> sell those same resources for, I buy them all up and resell them at the
> price I want.

No offense, man. But this is something people in RL will get sued for (at
least in europe), for it is considered a synthetical increase of prices.
I would like to ban blizzard for everyone doing this.
Why? It's jacking up economy, and it makes some people rich at all
peoples cost. If I have 40g, i can buy all 14 slot containers for 2.80
and resell them for 5g. If I do that constantly and make sure noone else
buys them at lower price, people will have to buy them from me.

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (50) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (29) on DE Proudmoore [PvE]
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 15, 2005 3:57:16 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Noal McDonald ytrede sig i
<1118753485.234161.204370@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> med dette:

>> No offense, man. But this is something people in RL will get sued for
>> (at least in europe), for it is considered a synthetical increase of prices.
>
>And that's why I'm proud to be an American. :-D

It's not illegal in Europe either.

If I notice someone is doing it at AH, I usually keeps selling more of
the items if I can, because it's fast mony for me.

I actually have a funny story about it. A fella was trying to corner the
market on Oily Blackmouth, bying my stacks with 20 and selling them in
stacks of 5 for twice the price. However I had 10 stacks of 20 in the
bank[1] so I had no problem keeping some for sale all the time. He then
contacted me, and asked if he could buy the directly from me, and I
agreed. Then 2 days later, the AH was flodded by by them, and the prices
dropped to a quarter of what I had sold them for.

The problem was that he had set the prices too high, so a lotta people
found it worthwhile to fish, instead of grind, so he ended up loosing
money, unless he kept them at stock in the bank.

[1] I like to fish with my low lvl chars in the morning, while drinking
coffee and listening to the news, that's why I often have a lotta Oily
Blackmouth at stock with my herb/alcm Priest.
--
Allan Stig Kiilerich Frederiksen
"When you try to change a mans paradigm, you must keep in mind that he
can hear you only through the filter of the paradigm he holds."
-Myron Tribus
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 15, 2005 12:07:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Christian Stauffer wrote:
> No offense, man. But this is something people in RL will get sued for (at
> least in europe), for it is considered a synthetical increase of prices.
> I would like to ban blizzard for everyone doing this.
> Why? It's jacking up economy, and it makes some people rich at all
> peoples cost. If I have 40g, i can buy all 14 slot containers for 2.80
> and resell them for 5g. If I do that constantly and make sure noone else
> buys them at lower price, people will have to buy them from me.

The day Blizzard bans someone for buying an item for x gold, from a
willing buyer who is happy to accept x gold for it, and then selling it
for x+y gold, to a willing buyer who is happy to pay x+y gold for it, is
the day I cancel my subscription. What an absolute disgrace that would be.

You make it sound like someone with enough money can gleefully
manipulate the market and "force" everyone to pay over the odds for
vital goods. Well, let me tell you, some people have succeeded, but
plenty have failed, and being stuck holding hundreds of gold worth of
gear that YOU overpaid for in an attempt to manipulate the market hurts
a LOT more than anything bad that a monster can do to your character.

Cheers!
David...
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 15, 2005 12:07:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

I agree with David and Christian is not in touch with the real world. In
the real world we goto auctions and guess what.....The is a standard
practice worldwide that people buy low sell high. How much people are
willing to pay controls the price. Remember WoW at max is a 24 hour
economy.

Welcome to the real world. You have a lot to learn about live if you
believe what you wrote.

"David Carson" <david@eldergothSPAMTRAP.com> wrote in message
news:42af5514$0$1761$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> Christian Stauffer wrote:
>> No offense, man. But this is something people in RL will get sued for (at
>> least in europe), for it is considered a synthetical increase of prices.
>> I would like to ban blizzard for everyone doing this.
>> Why? It's jacking up economy, and it makes some people rich at all
>> peoples cost. If I have 40g, i can buy all 14 slot containers for 2.80
>> and resell them for 5g. If I do that constantly and make sure noone else
>> buys them at lower price, people will have to buy them from me.
>
> The day Blizzard bans someone for buying an item for x gold, from a
> willing buyer who is happy to accept x gold for it, and then selling it
> for x+y gold, to a willing buyer who is happy to pay x+y gold for it, is
> the day I cancel my subscription. What an absolute disgrace that would be.
>
> You make it sound like someone with enough money can gleefully manipulate
> the market and "force" everyone to pay over the odds for vital goods.
> Well, let me tell you, some people have succeeded, but plenty have failed,
> and being stuck holding hundreds of gold worth of gear that YOU overpaid
> for in an attempt to manipulate the market hurts a LOT more than anything
> bad that a monster can do to your character.
>
> Cheers!
> David...
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 15, 2005 12:14:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"David Carson" <david@eldergothSPAMTRAP.com> wrote:

> Christian Stauffer wrote:
>
> The day Blizzard bans someone for buying an item for x gold, from a
> willing buyer who is happy to accept x gold for it, and then selling it
> for x+y gold, to a willing buyer who is happy to pay x+y gold for it, is
> the day I cancel my subscription. What an absolute disgrace that would be.

It's not about a single item, it's about manipulating the market by doing
it on all items of a certain type.

> You make it sound like someone with enough money can gleefully
> manipulate the market and "force" everyone to pay over the odds for
> vital goods. Well, let me tell you, some people have succeeded, but
> plenty have failed, and being stuck holding hundreds of gold worth of
> gear that YOU overpaid for in an attempt to manipulate the market hurts
> a LOT more than anything bad that a monster can do to your character.

It's not hard make a monopol over a certain good. Just camp the AH. Do
it with some friends, and you'll succeed. When I have 1000g, I can jack
up the whole "container economy" if I want to, and easily double my money
in a wheek or two, only by virtually increasing the prices. And if I do
that, I consider myself an asshat.

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (50) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (29) on DE Proudmoore [PvE]
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 15, 2005 12:21:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Dromiz" <jaltvate@columbus.rr.com> wrote:

> I agree with David and Christian is not in touch with the real world.

Whooot.

> In
> the real world we goto auctions and guess what.....The is a standard
> practice worldwide that people buy low sell high.

If a company controls the whole supply over a certain good, they have
to sell it for an appropriate price. If they make use of their monopoly
over that good, they'll encounter serious problems from the state.
This is a fact. Read the paper if you don't believe me. Or call a
lawyer. I'm not willing to teach you the basics.

> How much people are willing to pay controls the price.

Only if the market is working. The market isn't working anymore if
there's a monopoly. Economics, first class, second lesson.

> Remember WoW at max is a 24 hour economy.

I can sell stacks of heavy leather for 40% of what I could've charged
for 3 months ago. Do you call that a 24 hour economy?

> Welcome to the real world. You have a lot to learn about live if you
> believe what you wrote.

Yes, sure.

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (50) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (29) on DE Proudmoore [PvE]
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 15, 2005 5:03:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Actually it is hard to gain a long term monopoly over a commodity in
the AH. I'll agree that a short term monopoly would not be difficult.
The problem is that artificially raising the price of a commodity will
draw further production/farming of that commodity as other suppliers
attempt to take advantage of the newly inflated rates. As the supply
increases your ability to maintain your monopoly will be strained and
eventually break. When you can no longer maintain your monopoly the
market will correct itself. In fact, over the long term the rate for
said commodity should likely fall below the initial price due to the
much expanded supply chain. The crux of the problem with maintaining
such a monopoly is that the world's resources are not finite. Now,
some commodities will be sufficiantly rare that an effective longer
term monopoly can be maintained, but those items are generally on the
higher end of the game.

The people trying to manipulate the market in this manner are
essentially the day traders of WoW, playing the rises and falls of the
market. Some will make money, some will lose money. How it affects
the average toon depends on the day.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 15, 2005 6:09:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

BEING NICE my 1st reaction was a flame you for false statements you keep
making. But then flaming is what a baby would do.

If you do not like the prices on your server ask WoW to move to another. No
need for silly ranting and raving. The 2 servers I am on have no problems
with the AH prices.

I invest in the stock market and have a college degree and not a yaahoo to
the real world. And was ROFT for your lack of understanding of economics.
This AH is just like the world stock market pure and simple. It has not
monopoly at all not even close to one as set in the laws on the planet
earth.

BTW FFXI, EQ, EQ2 and WoW have same pricing issues. FFXI being the most
complex since all 4 AH's have different prices.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 15, 2005 9:01:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

> In World of Warcraft, you CANNOT create a "permanent monopoly",
> because there is an infinite supply of EVERYTHING on the Auction
> House, out there in the world for the plucking.

Quite.

By Christian's own definition of monopoly, as an entity that has
absolute control over the supply, I cannot create one because people
will just go out and farm the materials themselves.

That said, a monopoly is not illegal in the United States. Local and
Federal govnernments have even sanctioned them. (Think utilities.) The
illegal act is when you abuse your monopoly in order to drive other
people out of the maket. Quite obviously, I am not doing this. First,
the people that are selling it at a lower cost are getting the full
price they wanted to sell because I'm buying it from them. Second, when
those same people (or others) catch wise and sell it at the same price
I do, it actually helps me to maintain the selling price of the
resources that I'm putting on the market because I'm not being
lowballed.

Regards,
Noal

--
Dharzhak - Night Elf Druid (60) on Stormrage [PvE]
Kemwer - Tauren Warrior (32) on Stormrage [PvE]
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 15, 2005 9:32:06 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Dromiz" <jaltvate@columbus.rr.com> wrote:

> BEING NICE my 1st reaction was a flame you for false statements you keep
> making. But then flaming is what a baby would do.

So, we can agree on not flaming?

> If you do not like the prices on your server ask WoW to move to another. No
> need for silly ranting and raving. The 2 servers I am on have no problems
> with the AH prices.

I don't have problems with the prices on my server. Where did you read
anything that pointed you to the idea I had problems? Please discuss with
me about the things I wrote, and don't invent new topics for me.

> I invest in the stock market and have a college degree and not a yaahoo to
> the real world. And was ROFT for your lack of understanding of economics.
> This AH is just like the world stock market pure and simple. It has not
> monopoly at all not even close to one as set in the laws on the planet
> earth.

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/monopoly
"Exclusive control or possession of something"

http://www.investorwords.com/3112/monopoly.html
"A situation in which a single company owns all or nearly all of the
market for a given type of product or service."

If I buy all items of a certain type from the AH, I created a short
timed monopoly. If I do it repeatedly, or even camp the AH with
multiple people to do so, I created a permanent monopoly.

I currently have to pay 2.8g for a 14 slot container. If I wanted to
create a monopoly, I'd simply buy them repeatedly and sell them for
5g. Maybe I have to camp the AH to make sure I catch a percentage
large enough to make a monopoly.

Noal wrote he buys all items of a certain type if they're priced
too low, and resells them for a higher price. If there's no
monopoly, why does this work and people buy these items from him,
even though he's pricing them higher then other sellers do?


If I'm wrong, feel free to tell me. But please reference what I
wrote here. Tell me why this example is wrong. Tell me why it isn't
working.

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (50) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (29) on DE Proudmoore [PvE]
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 15, 2005 9:32:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Christian Stauffer" <wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
news:42b049f6$0$1147$5402220f@news.sunrise.ch...
> "Dromiz" <jaltvate@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> BEING NICE my 1st reaction was a flame you for false statements you keep
>> making. But then flaming is what a baby would do.
>
> So, we can agree on not flaming?
>
>> If you do not like the prices on your server ask WoW to move to another.
>> No need for silly ranting and raving. The 2 servers I am on have no
>> problems with the AH prices.
>
> I don't have problems with the prices on my server. Where did you read
> anything that pointed you to the idea I had problems? Please discuss with
> me about the things I wrote, and don't invent new topics for me.
>
>> I invest in the stock market and have a college degree and not a yaahoo
>> to the real world. And was ROFT for your lack of understanding of
>> economics. This AH is just like the world stock market pure and simple.
>> It has not monopoly at all not even close to one as set in the laws on
>> the planet earth.
>
> http://www.wordreference.com/definition/monopoly
> "Exclusive control or possession of something"
>
> http://www.investorwords.com/3112/monopoly.html
> "A situation in which a single company owns all or nearly all of the
> market for a given type of product or service."
>
> If I buy all items of a certain type from the AH, I created a short
> timed monopoly. If I do it repeatedly, or even camp the AH with
> multiple people to do so, I created a permanent monopoly.
>
> I currently have to pay 2.8g for a 14 slot container. If I wanted to
> create a monopoly, I'd simply buy them repeatedly and sell them for
> 5g. Maybe I have to camp the AH to make sure I catch a percentage
> large enough to make a monopoly.

That just works in the imagination not in the 'real' world. What would
really happen is you buyout the AH of bags for 2.8g and reprice them at 5g.
Then 10 more bags come to the AH and see your prices all at 5g so they price
at 4g. Now if you want to sell your bags you either lower prices or buyout
10 bags at 4g. Either way you go though eventually your model fails.
Either you keep buying out bags that are just below your sale price or you
lower your prices a little at a time till the price is eventually back to
2.8g.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 16, 2005 1:48:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:06:25 -0700, in alt.games.warcraft you wrote:

> "Christian Stauffer" <wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
> news:42b049f6$0$1147$5402220f@news.sunrise.ch...

>> I currently have to pay 2.8g for a 14 slot container. If I wanted to
>> create a monopoly, I'd simply buy them repeatedly and sell them for
>> 5g. Maybe I have to camp the AH to make sure I catch a percentage
>> large enough to make a monopoly.
>
> That just works in the imagination not in the 'real' world. What would
> really happen is you buyout the AH of bags for 2.8g and reprice them at 5g.
> Then 10 more bags come to the AH and see your prices all at 5g so they price
> at 4g.

That's a good point. However, I'd still buy and relist it. Sure, there is a
steady flow of those bags coming to the AH, but this flow can't satisfy the
growing demand (see beyound).
Of course, it's easier to do the rarer said item is.

> Now if you want to sell your bags you either lower prices or buyout
> 10 bags at 4g. Either way you go though eventually your model fails.
> Either you keep buying out bags that are just below your sale price or you
> lower your prices a little at a time till the price is eventually back to
> 2.8g.

I'd buy them out, every single one of them. When I feel the time has come,
I'll relist them for those aforementioned 5g. What happens now? People
haven't seen 14 slot containers for a long time. If someone wants to sell
his self crafted 14 slot containers for less than 5g at this moment, let
him do it. He'll sell them before me, but he can't satisfy the demand, so
people will start buying my bags.

I see your point. Put I'd still say creating a monopoly in WoW is far from
impossible.

Noal stated in this thread he's selling items for X and selling them for
X+Y. Obviously it's working, because if it wasn't, Noal wouldn't do it
(because I got he's quite a smart guy), and he wouldn't recommend it.

So it's like:
Before: 100 x "Item" in auction house, 1g (for example) each
After: 100 x "item" in auction house, 2g (for example) each

In a working market, supply and demand are the factors for calculating the
prices of goods.
Supply didn't change. It's still 100 pieces. Demand didn't change in the
meantime. Prices doubled. As it's still selling obviously, the market for
this good became corrupted.

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (50) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Lonewalker - Striding Tauren (15) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 16, 2005 11:52:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

> I'd still call it unethical to (try to) manipulate the market
> by doing stuff like this

Do you consider it ethical to drive down the market by flooding the
market with goods and selling them at a substantially lower rate than
others?

If not, why not?

Also, how do you believe fair market prices get set in the first place?

Regards,
Noal

--
Dharzhak - Night Elf Druid (60) on Stormrage [PvE]
Kemwer - Tauren Warrior (32) on Stormrage [PvE]
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 16, 2005 12:06:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

> Noal stated in this thread he's selling items for X and selling
> them for X+Y. Obviously it's working, because if it wasn't,
> Noal wouldn't do it (because I got he's quite a smart guy),
> and he wouldn't recommend it.

A more complete picture would something along the lines of:

Noal goes to the AH to sell Copper Bars, checks the current listed
price in order to price his goods at the maximum value that will sell
reliably. He finds that Copper Bars are now selling at ~2g/stack. After
a week of this, the market values fluctuates some, but remain unusually
high. During each trip, he checks the selling prices of others. If he
finds others selling them at 1g or less, esp. in large quantities, he
buys them up and resells all of those, along with his own goods, at the
market value that is currently established.

What I'm doing is significantly different than what you've been
describing. What I am doing is buying up the goods that people put on
the market at significantly lower cost and remarketing them in line
with what I, and others, are trying to sell our goods at.

Regards,
Noal

--
Dharzhak - Night Elf Druid (60) on Stormrage [PvE]
Kemwer - Tauren Warrior (34) on Stormrage [PvE]
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 16, 2005 12:34:35 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Christian Stauffer wrote:
> "David Carson" <david@eldergothSPAMTRAP.com> wrote:
>> The day Blizzard bans someone for buying an item for x gold, from a
>> willing buyer who is happy to accept x gold for it, and then selling
>> it for x+y gold, to a willing buyer who is happy to pay x+y gold for
>> it, is the day I cancel my subscription. What an absolute disgrace
>> that would be.
>
> It's not about a single item, it's about manipulating the market by doing
> it on all items of a certain type.

"All items", all of which are being sold by willing sellers for a price
they are happy to accept, and then bought by willing buyers for a price
THEY are willing to accept. I repeat, if Blizzard were to ever say that
people weren't allowed to make trades where both parties found the price
acceptable, it would be a disgrace.

>> You make it sound like someone with enough money can gleefully
>> manipulate the market and "force" everyone to pay over the odds for
>> vital goods. Well, let me tell you, some people have succeeded, but
>> plenty have failed, and being stuck holding hundreds of gold worth of
>> gear that YOU overpaid for in an attempt to manipulate the market
>> hurts a LOT more than anything bad that a monster can do to your
>> character.
>
> It's not hard make a monopol over a certain good. Just camp the AH. Do
> it with some friends, and you'll succeed. When I have 1000g, I can jack
> up the whole "container economy" if I want to, and easily double my money
> in a wheek or two, only by virtually increasing the prices. And if I do
> that, I consider myself an asshat.

Because on your server there are no tailors and no mobs that drop cloth,
apparently? The main result of such an effort is:

* impatient people spend more money
* some of the extra spending goes to the guy who made the RISKY
investment in trying to corner the market
* a LOT of the extra spending goes to all the tailors who said "wtf? the
price of silk bags just tripled" and headed for Scarlet Monastery to
stock up on supplies of silk.

I'm really failing to see the problem, or why any of the three parties
are "asshats".

Cheers!
David...
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 16, 2005 12:41:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Christian Stauffer wrote:
> http://www.wordreference.com/definition/monopoly
> "Exclusive control or possession of something"
>
> http://www.investorwords.com/3112/monopoly.html
> "A situation in which a single company owns all or nearly all of the
> market for a given type of product or service."
>
> If I buy all items of a certain type from the AH, I created a short
> timed monopoly. If I do it repeatedly, or even camp the AH with
> multiple people to do so, I created a permanent monopoly.

Christian, I've said this in my reply to your reply to me, but I'll say
it again because it's so important.

In World of Warcraft, you CANNOT create a "permanent monopoly", because
there is an infinite supply of EVERYTHING on the Auction House, out
there in the world for the plucking.

Camp the AH and buy all the runecloth bags? People head for the
Plaguelands and farm the newly overvalued runecloth.

Camp the AH and buy all the mithril ore? People take their characters
out on mining runs to sell more mithril to the guy going crazy snapping
it all u.

Camp the AH and buy all the wool? Everyone in the Stockades is hugely
endangered.

The only capital you need is a character capable of getting the goods,
and most of the people playing have a high level character. The only
labour you need is playing the game, which is hopefully what you're
logged on for.

> I currently have to pay 2.8g for a 14 slot container. If I wanted to
> create a monopoly, I'd simply buy them repeatedly and sell them for
> 5g. Maybe I have to camp the AH to make sure I catch a percentage
> large enough to make a monopoly.
>
> Noal wrote he buys all items of a certain type if they're priced
> too low, and resells them for a higher price. If there's no
> monopoly, why does this work and people buy these items from him,
> even though he's pricing them higher then other sellers do?
>
> If I'm wrong, feel free to tell me. But please reference what I
> wrote here. Tell me why this example is wrong. Tell me why it isn't
> working.

Because (a) the price he's charging is still one at which people find a
14-slot bag to be a worthy investment, and (b) it's still cheap enough
that people don't want to be bothered farming 25 runecloth and hollering
for a tailor to make them one.

If you insisted on camping the AH to lock the price at 5g, most of the
money would go to enterprising tailors who listed the bags at 4g99s to
undercut you.

Cheers!
David...
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 16, 2005 12:41:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"David Carson" <david@eldergothSPAMTRAP.com> wrote:
> Christian Stauffer wrote:
>> http://www.wordreference.com/definition/monopoly
>> "Exclusive control or possession of something"
>>
>> http://www.investorwords.com/3112/monopoly.html
>> "A situation in which a single company owns all or nearly all of the
>> market for a given type of product or service."
>>
>> If I buy all items of a certain type from the AH, I created a short
>> timed monopoly. If I do it repeatedly, or even camp the AH with
>> multiple people to do so, I created a permanent monopoly.
>
> Christian, I've said this in my reply to your reply to me, but I'll say
> it again because it's so important.
>
> In World of Warcraft, you CANNOT create a "permanent monopoly", because
> there is an infinite supply of EVERYTHING on the Auction House, out
> there in the world for the plucking.
>
> Camp the AH and buy all the runecloth bags? People head for the
> Plaguelands and farm the newly overvalued runecloth.
>
> Camp the AH and buy all the mithril ore? People take their characters
> out on mining runs to sell more mithril to the guy going crazy snapping
> it all u.
>
> Camp the AH and buy all the wool? Everyone in the Stockades is hugely
> endangered.
>
> The only capital you need is a character capable of getting the goods,
> and most of the people playing have a high level character. The only
> labour you need is playing the game, which is hopefully what you're
> logged on for.
>
>> I currently have to pay 2.8g for a 14 slot container. If I wanted to
>> create a monopoly, I'd simply buy them repeatedly and sell them for
>> 5g. Maybe I have to camp the AH to make sure I catch a percentage
>> large enough to make a monopoly.
>>
>> Noal wrote he buys all items of a certain type if they're priced
>> too low, and resells them for a higher price. If there's no
>> monopoly, why does this work and people buy these items from him,
>> even though he's pricing them higher then other sellers do?
>>
>> If I'm wrong, feel free to tell me. But please reference what I
>> wrote here. Tell me why this example is wrong. Tell me why it isn't
>> working.
>
> Because (a) the price he's charging is still one at which people find a
> 14-slot bag to be a worthy investment, and (b) it's still cheap enough
> that people don't want to be bothered farming 25 runecloth and hollering
> for a tailor to make them one.

Thanks for your explanations (and those from all the other folks).

I'd still call it unethical to (try to) manipulate the market by doing
stuff like this. However, I agree with you folks that
a) it's hard to keep it up for longer than a short time
b) there's a certain risk involved

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (50) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Lonewalker - Striding Tauren (15) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 17, 2005 12:27:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Noal McDonald" <dharzhak@my-deja.com> wrote:

>> I'd still call it unethical to (try to) manipulate the market
>> by doing stuff like this
>
> Do you consider it ethical to drive down the market by flooding the
> market with goods and selling them at a substantially lower rate than
> others?

Sure. Higher supply, same demand -> Lower prices. Most usual thing in
the world.
This starts to not be ok anymore when someone sells his goods for less
than what he payed for them only to keep him as seller attractive, but
this is something that wouldn't happen in WoW.

> If not, why not?

No "not".

> Also, how do you believe fair market prices get set in the first place?

Supply and demand.
If there are 20 people selling something only 10 people want to buy,
prices will decrease. However, they won't fall under a certain treshold,
where it's not worth to put them to the AH in the first place.

> Regards,
> Noal

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (50) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Lonewalker - Striding Tauren (15) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 17, 2005 2:43:54 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

>> Do you consider it ethical to drive down the market by flooding the
>> market with goods and selling them at a substantially lower rate than
>> others?
>
> Sure. Higher supply, same demand -> Lower prices. Most usual thing
> in the world.

So, it's okay to deliberately drive down the prices of goods, but not
okay to deliberately drive them up? Keep in mind that driving down, not
up, prices discourages competition because there's less incentive to
produce the goods.

I wanted you to understand that market manipulation in order to deflate
prices is just as ethical or inethical as driving them up.

Regards,
Noal

--
Dharzhak - Night Elf Druid (60) on Stormrage [PvE]
Kemwer - Tauren Warrior (34) on Stormrage [PvE]
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 17, 2005 5:18:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Christian Stauffer ytrede sig i
<42b26d6b$0$1159$5402220f@news.sunrise.ch> med dette:

>"Noal McDonald" <dharzhak@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>>> I'd still call it unethical to (try to) manipulate the market
>>> by doing stuff like this
>>
>> Do you consider it ethical to drive down the market by flooding the
>> market with goods and selling them at a substantially lower rate than
>> others?
>
>Sure. Higher supply, same demand -> Lower prices. Most usual thing in
>the world.
>This starts to not be ok anymore when someone sells his goods for less
>than what he payed for them only to keep him as seller attractive, but
>this is something that wouldn't happen in WoW.
>
>> If not, why not?
>
>No "not".
>
>> Also, how do you believe fair market prices get set in the first place?
>
>Supply and demand.
>If there are 20 people selling something only 10 people want to buy,
>prices will decrease. However, they won't fall under a certain treshold,
>where it's not worth to put them to the AH in the first place.

I actually have seen stuff sold for less than vendor price, but it's
very rare.

I guess it's when people has typed a wrong number, so it's not done
intentionally.

At first when I started to use the AH, I was surpriced of what some
items could be sold for, especially items that are easy to gather. Then
I gave it some thought, and most of those items can be of use for all
levels, so it's actually more a question on how long time it takes to
gather them.

Your level doesn't really matter when it comes to catching Oily
Blackmouth or Firefins, the drop rate is the same with a fishing skill
above 100-150 (at 75, the droprate for Oily Blackmouth are at 12-13% and
at 150 it raised to 18% - catching 20 of them will bring your lvl to 150
or close). Thus 1 hour spend at fishing, must be compared to 1 hour of
grinding or questing.

A level 40+ can easily make more than 3g in one hour and gain XP, so a
lot of people prefer to do that, and then go buy the fish.

When people starts getting gredy, and charges to much for the items, the
buyers just go get it themself.

There are rare exceptions, like the wool cloth for the faction
reputation quest. Took me 10 min to gather a stack of 20, yet I got 2g
for it at AH, this however will change again.
--
Allan Stig Kiilerich Frederiksen
"When you try to change a mans paradigm, you must keep in mind that he
can hear you only through the filter of the paradigm he holds."
-Myron Tribus
June 18, 2005 12:54:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Noal McDonald wrote:
>>>Do you consider it ethical to drive down the market by flooding the
>>>market with goods and selling them at a substantially lower rate than
>>>others?
>>
>>Sure. Higher supply, same demand -> Lower prices. Most usual thing
>>in the world.
>
>
> So, it's okay to deliberately drive down the prices of goods, but not
> okay to deliberately drive them up? Keep in mind that driving down, not
> up, prices discourages competition because there's less incentive to
> produce the goods.
>
> I wanted you to understand that market manipulation in order to deflate
> prices is just as ethical or inethical as driving them up.

To put it another way, driving a price down *is* driving the price up.
For example, if you drive the price of fish in gold down, that means you
are driving the price of gold in fish up.

They are the same.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
June 21, 2005 8:23:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

As much as I do not wish to bore you, I've had the unpleasantness of
completing an economics degree, and soon to finish a law degree :-)

You are far from correct. No one can have a monopoly on the WoW AH's as
there are no artificial or even natural barriers to entry or exit from the
AH.

Simply put, if somone 'corners the market' and buys up all 14 slot
containers, then jacks up the price, it will not take long for others to
undercut him.

Thus the market will balance towards equilibrium :-)
!