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Waiting for Haswell

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December 6, 2012 1:14:15 AM

Hello,

I am currently picking out parts for around a $700 build. I settled on a nice Intel i5 3750K and Radeon 7870 when I started reading about Haswell, Intel's next generation of CPUs. The most intriguing part to me is the improved integrated graphics through Intel HD 5000 integrated graphics. My question: Is it worth waiting for Haswell to see what it has to offer? The expected release date is in April-May 2013.

The only reason this interests me is the potential of not having to get a dedicated GPU (which costs a good portion of my budget build). So how would the Intel 5000 graphics compare to a dedidcated Radeon 7870? Thanks!

P.S. Since we're talking future, let me just say my ultimate goal is to play Battlefield 4 at 60 fps on at least medium.

Thanks!

More about : waiting haswell

December 6, 2012 1:34:15 AM

Right now, I can get 30 fps on bf3 at low settings and res at 1280x768. That is with the HD4000. Seeing how much of a jump the HD3000 made to the 4000, I doubt you will get what you are looking for with the HD5000. BF4 is said to use the FB2.5 or 3 engine which will be a lot more than FB2. I say go with the i5 3570k and 7870. Not only can it play all games max at 1080p, but it will probably do so for the next few years.
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December 6, 2012 3:10:48 AM

I doubt its going to run it at 60fps. Im expecting bf4 to be a pretty demanding game. The big question in whether to wait or not is how much are you going to benefit from upgrading now.
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a c 117 à CPUs
December 6, 2012 4:18:59 AM

If you are serious about gaming, forget Intel's IGPs.

While Haswell's highest-end IGP is supposed to be about 300% as fast as HD4000, this would still not amount to much compared to HD7870's performance. One simple reason for it is that the HD7870 has access to about 5X as much RAM bandwidth as the IGP does so the HD7870 will easily run circles around HD5000 if you start pushing resolution and details up.

As far as the upgrade itch goes, if you feel like you need it *NOW*, you might as well buy now and get it over with. There is still half a year to go assuming there are no delays and limited supply for the first few months could translate into inflated prices. Aside from lower power, Haswell is not expected to be much of a world-changer so the i5-34xx/35xx you buy today is going to be otherwise just about as good as the Haswell you may buy next year and last you 4-5 years either way.

If you wait until Haswell launches to buy, you might decide to wait for reviews, then wait for comments about overclocking, reliability, motherboard roundups, feature-specific reviews, etc. etc. and then start thinking about waiting for Broadwell because you are now half-way there. Rinse and repeat. In the meantime, you get to enjoy 'the itch' to upgrade and the frustration of putting up with whatever is causing that itch for that much longer.

I originally planned to stretch my C2D until Haswell... but the swapping/reloading from being stuck at 8GB when I needed ~12GB to smooth things out wore me out until I decided to get an i5-3470 with P8H77-M and 16GB RAM. Not the Haswell I originally wanted to shoot for but getting rid of that HDD IO grinding noise and lag that annoyed the heck out of me is priceless.

If you are upgrading just for the heck of upgrading, wait. If you are upgrading because something in your current rig is becoming an on-going irritant with no simple and affordable fix then you would likely do yourself a favor by not waiting much longer.
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a c 472 à CPUs
a c 115 å Intel
December 6, 2012 5:25:35 PM

The "Intel HD 5000" is no match for the Radeon HD 7870.

The Intel HD 4000 is more or less equal to a Radeon HD 5550. I do not expect too much of an increase for the "Intel HD 5000" since I believe Intel is focusing on decreasing power consumption rather than performance. My guess is that it will be a little less powerful than the Radeon HD 5570 / HD 6570 (same card, different name if I am not mistaken).
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December 6, 2012 8:56:12 PM

InvalidError said:
If you are serious about gaming, forget Intel's IGPs.

While Haswell's highest-end IGP is supposed to be about 300% as fast as HD4000, this would still not amount to much compared to HD7870's performance. One simple reason for it is that the HD7870 has access to about 5X as much RAM bandwidth as the IGP does so the HD7870 will easily run circles around HD5000 if you start pushing resolution and details up.

As far as the upgrade itch goes, if you feel like you need it *NOW*, you might as well buy now and get it over with. There is still half a year to go assuming there are no delays and limited supply for the first few months could translate into inflated prices. Aside from lower power, Haswell is not expected to be much of a world-changer so the i5-34xx/35xx you buy today is going to be otherwise just about as good as the Haswell you may buy next year and last you 4-5 years either way.

If you wait until Haswell launches to buy, you might decide to wait for reviews, then wait for comments about overclocking, reliability, motherboard roundups, feature-specific reviews, etc. etc. and then start thinking about waiting for Broadwell because you are now half-way there. Rinse and repeat. In the meantime, you get to enjoy 'the itch' to upgrade and the frustration of putting up with whatever is causing that itch for that much longer.

I originally planned to stretch my C2D until Haswell... but the swapping/reloading from being stuck at 8GB when I needed ~12GB to smooth things out wore me out until I decided to get an i5-3470 with P8H77-M and 16GB RAM. Not the Haswell I originally wanted to shoot for but getting rid of that HDD IO grinding noise and lag that annoyed the heck out of me is priceless.

If you are upgrading just for the heck of upgrading, wait. If you are upgrading because something in your current rig is becoming an on-going irritant with no simple and affordable fix then you would likely do yourself a favor by not waiting much longer.


Sorry I did not make this clear, but I am actually building a new desktop, not upgrading.

My current computer is an HP G60 laptop that plays COD4 at 30 fps on lowest settings. I don't think it's worth waiting for Haswell, so I think I'll go ahead and pursue this build now.

That being said, will the Intel i5 3570K and Radeon 7870 combo handle Battlefield 4 well? I've heard BF4 will run on Frostbite 2, but twice as much of the engine is being used as BF3 (which only used 30%-40%)
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a c 117 à CPUs
December 6, 2012 10:23:48 PM

ROUGHRIDER13 said:
Sorry I did not make this clear, but I am actually building a new desktop, not upgrading.

Buying/building new can be regarded as a special case of upgrade or vice-versa, not much difference there apart from the longer parts list and bigger bill.

In either case, whether or not upgrading/building now is "worth it" depends on whether or not the benefits of doing so now are sufficient to improve your computing experience enough to justify the expense and passing up on the benefits of waiting.

The i5-34xx/35xx will cover most people's gaming needs for the next 3+ years. If you can live with IGP for a while, skipping the HD7870 to get a HD8870 might be worth considering.
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December 6, 2012 10:28:18 PM

InvalidError said:
Buying/building new can be regarded as a special case of upgrade or vice-versa, not much difference there apart from the longer parts list and bigger bill.

In either case, whether or not upgrading/building now is "worth it" depends on whether or not the benefits of doing so now are sufficient to improve your computing experience enough to justify the expense and passing up on the benefits of waiting.

The i5-34xx/35xx will cover most people's gaming needs for the next 3+ years. If you can live with IGP for a while, skipping the HD7870 to get a HD8870 might be worth considering.


Any idea on the HD8870s price?
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a b à CPUs
December 6, 2012 10:50:19 PM

rocknrollz said:
Right now, I can get 30 fps on bf3 at low settings and res at 1280x768. That is with the HD4000. Seeing how much of a jump the HD3000 made to the 4000, I doubt you will get what you are looking for with the HD5000. BF4 is said to use the FB2.5 or 3 engine which will be a lot more than FB2. I say go with the i5 3570k and 7870. Not only can it play all games max at 1080p, but it will probably do so for the next few years.

Not very well, a 7970 is if you want max settings. Have you even played battlefield 3 or are you one of those people who want the fastest FPS but never play the games?
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a c 472 à CPUs
a c 115 å Intel
December 6, 2012 10:50:42 PM

Probably around $350.
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December 6, 2012 10:51:07 PM

ROUGHRIDER13 said:
Any idea on the HD8870s price?

Around $200~$300 but be prepared to wait a long time.
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December 6, 2012 10:56:47 PM

InvalidError said:
If you are serious about gaming, forget Intel's IGPs.

While Haswell's highest-end IGP is supposed to be about 300% as fast as HD4000, this would still not amount to much compared to HD7870's performance. One simple reason for it is that the HD7870 has access to about 5X as much RAM bandwidth as the IGP does so the HD7870 will easily run circles around HD5000 if you start pushing resolution and details up.

As far as the upgrade itch goes, if you feel like you need it *NOW*, you might as well buy now and get it over with. There is still half a year to go assuming there are no delays and limited supply for the first few months could translate into inflated prices. Aside from lower power, Haswell is not expected to be much of a world-changer so the i5-34xx/35xx you buy today is going to be otherwise just about as good as the Haswell you may buy next year and last you 4-5 years either way.

If you wait until Haswell launches to buy, you might decide to wait for reviews, then wait for comments about overclocking, reliability, motherboard roundups, feature-specific reviews, etc. etc. and then start thinking about waiting for Broadwell because you are now half-way there. Rinse and repeat. In the meantime, you get to enjoy 'the itch' to upgrade and the frustration of putting up with whatever is causing that itch for that much longer.

I originally planned to stretch my C2D until Haswell... but the swapping/reloading from being stuck at 8GB when I needed ~12GB to smooth things out wore me out until I decided to get an i5-3470 with P8H77-M and 16GB RAM. Not the Haswell I originally wanted to shoot for but getting rid of that HDD IO grinding noise and lag that annoyed the heck out of me is priceless.

If you are upgrading just for the heck of upgrading, wait. If you are upgrading because something in your current rig is becoming an on-going irritant with no simple and affordable fix then you would likely do yourself a favor by not waiting much longer.


Yes, it could be another ivy bridge where not much but TPD has changed (that's the main feature in haswell) or at worst another bulldozer although that is very unlikely to happen although the chances are there due to haswell being a near completely different architecture so save power. Overall I really think haswell is not worth waiting for if your purpose is to play games because TPD doesn't directly effect performance. Either way it's fine to wait but not worth it in some cases, but is a pretty big deal to people who use IGP still, people who play "lite" games and do things online most of the time.
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December 7, 2012 12:00:05 AM

rocknrollz said:
I say go with the i5 3570k and 7870. Not only can it play all games max at 1080p, but it will probably do so for the next few years.


How does overclocking the i5 3570k and 7870 affect the obsolescence date?
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December 7, 2012 12:02:39 AM

melikepie said:
Not very well, a 7970 is if you want max settings. Have you even played battlefield 3 or are you one of those people who want the fastest FPS but never play the games?


Are you speaking to me or the guy you quoted? A 6850 can handle max settings on BF3...
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December 7, 2012 12:04:20 AM

ROUGHRIDER13 said:
Are you speaking to me or the guy you quoted? A 6850 can handle max settings on BF3...

That's your guess not fact, my 6870 can only do 20FPS on ultra.
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December 7, 2012 12:10:25 AM

melikepie said:
That's your guess not fact, my 6870 can only do 20FPS on ultra.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mQW-Cpjv8I

This tangent doesn't really pertain to me a whole lot, so I let you win regardless. Although my friend does have a Sapphire 6850 that hits 30 on ultra.

Anyways, how long will overclocking the i5 3570k and 7870 postpone the system's obsolescence date?
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December 7, 2012 12:12:25 AM

I don't think integrated graphics are going to run comparably to decent dedicated graphics cards anytime soon. And if they do, I think it will be AMD's APU's.
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a c 117 à CPUs
December 7, 2012 11:47:24 AM

ROUGHRIDER13 said:
Any idea on the HD8870s price?

IIRC, leaked prices are $280 for the 8870 and $200 for the 8850.

$70 and $50 cheaper than their respective 78xx predecessors' launch prices. This doesn't leave much room below $200 for anything much slower than a HD8750.
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December 7, 2012 12:01:54 PM

InvalidError said:
IIRC, leaked prices are $280 for the 8870 and $200 for the 8850.

$70 and $50 cheaper than their respective 78xx predecessors' launch prices. This doesn't leave much room below $200 for anything much slower than a HD8750.

Nobody cares about the "leaked" prices.
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December 7, 2012 12:51:13 PM

rewben2 said:
I don't think integrated graphics are going to run comparably to decent dedicated graphics cards anytime soon. And if they do, I think it will be AMD's APU's.


Could be true, if AMD continues development on Steamroller and Excavator. 2013 is gonna be 'make or break' for AMD IMO and they have already announced they will be greatly reducing their presence in desktop x86 in favor of ARM SoC's.

According to Intel, Haswell's iGPU should be twice as fast as the HD4K on Ivy. Still not going to let gamers replace any mid to high-end discrete GPUs, but OTOH using the iGPU with a discrete GPU (by Lucid's Virtu MVP for example) should boost performance signficantly. For example, using Virtu MVP with my 3770K's HD4K and my HD 7970, I can boost framerates on average by 10 fps, over 20 fps in some games, keeping both the 7970 and the 4K at stock frequencies.
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December 7, 2012 11:06:16 PM

While the GT3 version (for laptop CPUs only) of the "Intel HD 5000" is going to have 20 shaders, I don't think the performance increase over the Intel HD 4000 will be very dramatic. I believe they are focusing more on lower power consumption than increased performance. I would hazard to guess that the "Intel HD 5000" will be around 15% to at most 20% more powerful than the Intel HD 4000.

I think it will not be until Broadwell is released when Intel really increases performance of the CPU and GPU cores. Well... it won't be too long to find out since Haswell is expected to be released in March / April.
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December 8, 2012 12:02:18 AM

jaguarskx said:
While the GT3 version (for laptop CPUs only) of the "Intel HD 5000" is going to have 20 shaders, I don't think the performance increase over the Intel HD 4000 will be very dramatic. I believe they are focusing more on lower power consumption than increased performance. I would hazard to guess that the "Intel HD 5000" will be around 15% to at most 20% more powerful than the Intel HD 4000.

I think it will not be until Broadwell is released when Intel really increases performance of the CPU and GPU cores. Well... it won't be too long to find out since Haswell is expected to be released in March / April.


The laptop version of Haswell(GT3) will have 40 shaders, architectural improvements and onboard DRAM, it will supposedly be clocked at 75% of the speed of the GT2 version of Haswell's IGP, which will have 20 shaders, architectural improvements and NO onboard DRAM.

The GT3 HD5000 should be twice as fast as the 16 shader HD4000 and the GT2 HD5000 should be 40%+ faster than the HD4000.

Who knows if Intel will bring out a GT3 for the desktop for Haswell, before Broadwell arrives, but either way, no IGP in the next 12 months is getting close to the performance of a 7870.

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