Warrior talents help please

[Chingy]

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

hi there

thinking of making warrior whose main job would be tanking big bosses in
instances and deccent DPS in instances and while I solo as well...

How do I ditrubute talent points for this sorta build...

Cheers

 

[Guest]

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> thinking of making warrior whose main job would be tanking big bosses
> in instances and deccent DPS in instances and while I solo as well...

1) Tanking =/= DPS.
2) Warrior is not designed to be a solo class. (If you want to tank and
solo, consider Druid, Paladin or Shaman as healing can be crucial.)
3) Tanking, regardless of class, is a very gear dependent role.

The job of a tank is not to do damage. The job is to keep the mobs
beating on him and taking it while the healers keep him standing and
the others focus on a single mob.

To be an effective Main Tank at level 50+, you should be Protection
Specced so you don't get melted in record time.

If you want high DPS, go Arms/Fury. This is good for the Main Assist
job since that job is to peel a mob off the Main Tank and melt it as
fast as possible.

Regards,
Noal

--
Dharzhak - Night Elf Druid (60) on Stormrage [PvE]
Kemwer - Tauren Warrior (34) on Stormrage [PvE]

 

[Guest]

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I'm a lvl 60 warrior and have about 8 played days under my belt since
reaching lvl 60. I was an arms/fury specced warrior up til about lvl 55,
when I decided to go ahead and become a "true" tank, and went with a fairly
balanced talent build with emphasis on protection. I've had that for a
considerable amount of time and it has served me fairly well when doing my
high lvl instance grind to get my valor set, onxyia key, molten core, etc.
At this point I have 5/8 valor items, uber weapons, need just one more gem
for the UBRS key, etc. etc. In a 10-man raid I routinely have 25-30% of the
damage received, and in 15-man raids something around 20%. This is the job
of a tank, IMO.

The problem with this, however, is that you can do just about as good by
using your lesser taunt and hitting creeps for high damage, which pulls
aggro quite nicely as well. I sometimes run into a particularly effective
pally or warrior that never does anything but either duel-wield or use a
high damage 2H weapon, and they will not only get in the top 2 or 3 of
damage taken, but also in the top 2 or 3 of damage GIVEN. How much more fun
does that sound??

Well, even with all that I still kept my "main tank" status. But yesterday
I went to the battlegrounds for the first time. I was in agony. Protection
specs = horribly gruesome death in PvP. Protection specs = horribly slow
killing when soloing/farming/grinding.

So, I respecced last night back to arms/fury and promptly went elite farming
and had a helluva good time mortal striking, sweeping strikes, overpowering,
executing, etc. And I really am not concerned that I"ll be able to tank
nearly as well as I did before. We'll see. The bottom line is, even if you
don't win the DPS battle with the mages and rouges, you'll have a heckuva
lot more fun if you do arms/fury.

Mike

"Chingy" <fff@ffd.com> wrote in message
news:42c00d92$1_1@news.melbourne.pipenetworks.com...
> hi there
>
> thinking of making warrior whose main job would be tanking big bosses in
> instances and deccent DPS in instances and while I solo as well...
>
> How do I ditrubute talent points for this sorta build...
>
> Cheers
>
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

> Yeah, true, but can't a protection spec warrior allow the raid MUCH
> more damage and MUCH less healing thanks to blocking, improved
> armour, speeding up things by a great deal of time?

Yes. Which is what I was talking about.

If you're going to be the main tank in the level 60 instances,
protection specced builds have a much easier time of it. OTOH,
Arms/Fury builds are more successful in PvP situations. What you intend
to focus on should determine your build.

Mages have a similar issue. Ice mages are great in lvl 60 instances and
mass PvP environments. In duels, however, they often lack the DPS
needed to win, esp. against healing classes.

Regards,
Noal

--
Dharzhak - Night Elf Druid (60) on Stormrage [PvE]
Kemwer - Tauren Warrior (34) on Stormrage [PvE]

 

[Guest]

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Noal McDonald wrote:

>>thinking of making warrior whose main job would be tanking big bosses
>>in instances and deccent DPS in instances and while I solo as well...
>
>
> 1) Tanking =/= DPS.
> 2) Warrior is not designed to be a solo class. (If you want to tank and
> solo, consider Druid, Paladin or Shaman as healing can be crucial.)
> 3) Tanking, regardless of class, is a very gear dependent role.
>
> The job of a tank is not to do damage. The job is to keep the mobs
> beating on him and taking it while the healers keep him standing and
> the others focus on a single mob.
>
> To be an effective Main Tank at level 50+, you should be Protection
> Specced so you don't get melted in record time.
>
> If you want high DPS, go Arms/Fury. This is good for the Main Assist
> job since that job is to peel a mob off the Main Tank and melt it as
> fast as possible.
>
> Regards,
> Noal
>
> --
> Dharzhak - Night Elf Druid (60) on Stormrage [PvE]
> Kemwer - Tauren Warrior (34) on Stormrage [PvE]
>

On my server, which is a PVP server, there are NO protection-specced
warriors. Almost everyone went to Arms/fury to get the incredible Mortal
Strike talent. They do relatively okay as main tanks in high-end raid
instances, as healers/mages have to deal with it since the beginning.

Having mortal strike makes solo days much less painful.

 

[Guest]

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Mike in Mystic wrote:

> I'm a lvl 60 warrior and have about 8 played days under my belt since
> reaching lvl 60. I was an arms/fury specced warrior up til about lvl 55,
> when I decided to go ahead and become a "true" tank, and went with a fairly
> balanced talent build with emphasis on protection. I've had that for a
> considerable amount of time and it has served me fairly well when doing my
> high lvl instance grind to get my valor set, onxyia key, molten core, etc.
> At this point I have 5/8 valor items, uber weapons, need just one more gem
> for the UBRS key, etc. etc. In a 10-man raid I routinely have 25-30% of the
> damage received, and in 15-man raids something around 20%. This is the job
> of a tank, IMO.
>
> The problem with this, however, is that you can do just about as good by
> using your lesser taunt and hitting creeps for high damage, which pulls
> aggro quite nicely as well. I sometimes run into a particularly effective
> pally or warrior that never does anything but either duel-wield or use a
> high damage 2H weapon, and they will not only get in the top 2 or 3 of
> damage taken, but also in the top 2 or 3 of damage GIVEN. How much more fun
> does that sound??
>
> Well, even with all that I still kept my "main tank" status. But yesterday
> I went to the battlegrounds for the first time. I was in agony. Protection
> specs = horribly gruesome death in PvP. Protection specs = horribly slow
> killing when soloing/farming/grinding.
>
> So, I respecced last night back to arms/fury and promptly went elite farming
> and had a helluva good time mortal striking, sweeping strikes, overpowering,
> executing, etc. And I really am not concerned that I"ll be able to tank
> nearly as well as I did before. We'll see. The bottom line is, even if you
> don't win the DPS battle with the mages and rouges, you'll have a heckuva
> lot more fun if you do arms/fury.
>

Yeah, true, but can't a protection spec warrior allow the raid MUCH more
damage and MUCH less healing thanks to blocking, improved armour,
speeding up things by a great deal of time?

just asking opinions, as I play holy priest, never met any protection
warrior over there, and found all those high end fights incredibly
tedious and boring...

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Mike in Mystic wrote:
> I sometimes run into a particularly effective pally or warrior that
> never does anything but either duel-wield or use a high damage 2H
> weapon, and they will not only get in the top 2 or 3 of damage
> taken, but also in the top 2 or 3 of damage GIVEN?

Never having had a Warrior, I must admit that all this talk about
taunts and special aggro techniques are both fascinating and
mystifying. As a Paladin, the only way I generate aggro *is* through
DPS. Thus, it took me a long while to realize that to Warriors a tank
is someone that takes, and not necessarily dishes out, damage.

My fighting style is pretty straightforward. If I'm a tank (and,
again, to me a tank is someone that takes *and* dishes out damage [in
the limited Paladin fashion, of course]), I pick a target--often using
the assist feature to select whatever another melee fighter in the
group is after--and start slashing away with Seal of Command and a
two-handed weapon. I keep an eye on the cloth wearers and rush to
engage any enemies that go after them directly. If I'm the only healer
in a five-person instance group, I'll switch to a one-handed weapon
and a shield, but still melee in order to regain mana using Seal of
Wisdom. Regardless of role I also make sure my group buffs aren't
expiring (Blessing of Wisdom for Paladins, Druids, and Hunters;
Blessing of Might for Warriors, Rogues, and pets; Blessing of
Salvation for Priests, Mages, Warlocks).

--
<URL:http://www.pobox.com/~ylee/> PERTH ----> *
Cpu(s): 5.9% us, 1.2% sy, 2.9% ni, 88.5% id, 1.5% wa, 0.1% hi, 0.0% si
Mem: 515800k total, 478884k used, 36916k free, 50180k buffers
Swap: 3052208k total, 96128k used, 2956080k free, 120448k cached

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

> Tanking is much, much more about the skill of the player, than the talent
> build. I've seen "protection spec" warriors that I could out-tank as a
> Paladin. And I've seen Arms/Fury warriors that had aggro so tight they
> were taking 80% of the incoming damage on a 5-man.
>

Skill + good gear is more important then how you are specced. If you are
protection specced but only have 320 defense or so you will be getting
critted constantly and healers won't be able to keep up if you get a string
of big crits on you. I'm specced as a 31/20 MS warrior. But I've collected
some pretty nice tanking gear. I've tanked the hounds in MC and offtanked
Lucifron without any trouble. If you can get around 5000hp, 400 def, and
7000 armor you will do just fine.

The one fight you really need a prot specced warrior for is Onyxia. She
resists taunts and if you lose aggro on her for more then a few seconds it's
a wipe. For Onyxia our MT is prot specced and that's all he really does. I'm
glad he likes tanking though because frankly, tanking isn't nearly as fun
and relaxing as being a damage dealer.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Brian wrote:
> >Never having had a Warrior, I must admit that all this talk about
> >taunts and special aggro techniques are both fascinating and
> >mystifying. As a Paladin, the only way I generate aggro *is* through
> >DPS. Thus, it took me a long while to realize that to Warriors a tank
> >is someone that takes, and not necessarily dishes out, damage.
>
> Actually, Paladins have a lot more than just dps for aggro generation.
> *Nothing* like the bag of tricks that a Warrior has, but we do Seal of
> Fury, which is a significant boost to aggro, especially if you talent it
> up. Also, most of the judged seals are aggro-generating, because the mob
> sees them as a debuff, and nobody likes debuffs.

[...]

> If all you're using for aggro is DPS, you're not tanking. Stuns, Fury,
> Consecration, Holy Shield, judgements, etc...

I could've been more exact, but to me DPS isn't so much a simple
numeric measurement as "killing the enemy as fast as and most
efficiently possible." And included in that, in my mind, are the
things you mention.

The one main exception is Seal of Fury. I've never bothered to learn
it since a) I give Blessing of Salvation to those who need it and b)
as mentioned I use Seal of Command and a high-quality two-handed
weapon to generate DPS (in the literal sense) and thus aggro. Or, to
put another way, I'm not convinced the Seal is worth the tradeoff of
losing the inherent damage- (and aggro-generating) other seals I
already do know and use.

--
<URL:http://www.pobox.com/~ylee/> PERTH ----> *
Cpu(s): 5.8% us, 1.2% sy, 2.8% ni, 88.6% id, 1.5% wa, 0.1% hi, 0.0% si
Mem: 515800k total, 488312k used, 27488k free, 39896k buffers
Swap: 3052208k total, 96360k used, 2955848k free, 138488k cached

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

> For me, tanking's the most fun in this game Thank god opinions vary.

Agreed. When I started tanking in instances with my druid, I was amazed
at how difficult the job is. When I'm healing, I just watch bars and
click on the ones that need the most attention.

Tanking requires you to pay a whole lot of attention to everything
around you. In raids, it's not as bad to be the MT since you're job is
to gather and hold as many as you can in place. The job of a 2nd or 3rd
tank is to catch runners before they get away or get to the casters and
pile on when everything's under control.Most times, the tank in a 5 man
has do all of that. Skill of player really counts for a lot in that
situation.

Regards,
Noal

--
Dharzhak - Night Elf Druid (60) on Stormrage [PvE]
Kemwer - Tauren Warrior (35) on Stormrage [PvE]

 

[Guest]

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"McDLT" <no@no.no> wrote:

> The one fight you really need a prot specced warrior for is Onyxia. She
> resists taunts and if you lose aggro on her for more then a few seconds it's
> a wipe. For Onyxia our MT is prot specced and that's all he really does. I'm
> glad he likes tanking though because frankly, tanking isn't nearly as fun
> and relaxing as being a damage dealer.

Damage dealer: Kills a target by pressing all the keys that are enabled.
Tank: Pulls, AoEs, has an eye on every mob and every teammate, has to
play the healers bodyguard, switches target, has to watch each mobs aggro,
etc.

For me, tanking's the most fun in this game Thank god opinions vary.

Chris

 

[Guest]

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On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:42:48 +0200, "Christian Stauffer"
<wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote:

>"McDLT" <no@no.no> wrote:
>
>> The one fight you really need a prot specced warrior for is Onyxia. She
>> resists taunts and if you lose aggro on her for more then a few seconds it's
>> a wipe. For Onyxia our MT is prot specced and that's all he really does. I'm
>> glad he likes tanking though because frankly, tanking isn't nearly as fun
>> and relaxing as being a damage dealer.
>
>Damage dealer: Kills a target by pressing all the keys that are enabled.
>Tank: Pulls, AoEs, has an eye on every mob and every teammate, has to
>play the healers bodyguard, switches target, has to watch each mobs aggro,
>etc.
>
>For me, tanking's the most fun in this game Thank god opinions vary.
>
>Chris

I'll say they vary I find Tanking as dull as hell, I like killing
people/animals/Ugly tusk faced things. I don't really party play
though, so If I wasn't hacking stuff to bits myself, they'd never die.

 

[Guest]

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Well, I went ahead and re-specced from protection to arms/fury again. My
gear is probably pertinent, but I haven't uploaded one of those stats/gear
info things I sometimes see. Basically I have 5/8 valor pieces, stockades
spaulders, master cannoneers boots, some good rings and all that stuff. I
dont' remember all my stats, but my armor with duel-wield is about 5000 and
with my shield it's around 6500 - unbuffed of course.

When I respecced, I did 31/20 and was pretty much following a template I
found online. Basically, the key talents that I lost were toughness,
improved taunt, shield specialization, iron will and concussion blow. The
key talents I gained were sweeping strikes, mortal strike, axe
specialization, piercing howl, improved overpower and enrage.

For use with this build I have a number of "uber" 2H weapons with various
enchants (crusader, icy weapon, fiery weapon, lifestealer, etc.). But I
specifically wanted a good duel-wield set for use in PvP situations, as well
as against casting classes. The 2H weapons will still be used for finishing
moves, against tanks, etc. And I didn't throw away my shield, so I can
still use that for tough bosses or to main tank as needed.

To test the effectiveness of my new build, I used mainly the following
weapons with few exceptions.

Main hand: Axe of the Deep Woods (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=10591) 78-146
damage, 2.7 Speed, 41.5 DPS
Off hand: Boneslicing Hatchet (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=37158) 48-90
damage, 1.7 speed, 40.6 DPS
2H weapon: Blackhand Doomsaw (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=20827) 151-227
damage, 3.5 speed, 54 DPS.

The 2 axes each had crusader enchant and the polearm has fiery weapon
enchant. I once in awhile also used my arcanite champion sword
(http://www.thottbot.com/?i=26058) which also has crusader enchant. This
was fairly rare though.

My "test" was to do 3 runs through Stratholme baron-side with nearly
identical groups (on the 3rd trip 2 ppl were different, but the first 2
trips were identical groups and 8 of the 10 on the 3rd was the same for all
3 trips). All of these ppl were in my guild and for the most part are well
seasoned lvl 60s and very good players. The group consisted of 3 warriors,
including myself, 2 rogues, a mage, 2 druids, 1 hunter and 1 warlock. (the
final group we lost the warlock on one rogue, replaced with another warrior
and another hunter). I didn't ask anyone what their talent builds were or
anything, but this isn't exactly scientific.

For all three trips I used duel-wield for nearly the whole trip, except for
a couple of the smaller bosses I switched to the Doomsaw and on the baron I
initially used the Deep Woods axe and my shield, but quickly switched to the
Doomsaw for him as well, and even used the duel axes for a little while.
What were the results (using the built-in damage meters with the latest
cosmos build)? I led BOTH the damage dealing and damage taking for ALL
THREE TRIPS. I had 23% of damage given and 20% of damage taken,
approximately, which was rank #1 for both. I didn't look at healing
received, although that might be interesting to think about.

What's my point? You do NOT need to be protection specced to be a good
tank, and to be a good tank does not mean you have to give up your good
damage dealing talents either. Also, I actually had a LOT more fun being
able to get 2000+ crits again, and since the last time I was arms/fury I
have gotten a LOT better gear and weapons, so it was all the more enjoyable.
I even dueled a few of my pretty decent lvl 60 friends (2 rogues and a
druid) and absolutely owned them. (I got a crit hit with my doomsaw on one
rogue for 3200 damage hehe).

As for Christian's statment about damage dealers simply killing a target by
pressing all enabled keys, that's just silly. The whole time I was running
on this raids, I would charge a creep, mortal strike, sweeping strike,
cleave, running around, watching the healers, watching the OTHER warriors,
doing damage EVERYWHERE, taking aggro from EVERYTHING. It was chaos, it was
dynamic, it was MAGNIFICENT.

Oh, one more thing. Piercing howl is the absolutely bomb. I also ran
through Jailbreak (quest in string for Onxyia key) finally yesterday and
that talent was AWESOME for stopping all those lily-livered dwarves from
running away to get help.

So, there you have it.

Mike


"Christian Stauffer" <wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
news:42c404e8$0$1163$5402220f@news.sunrise.ch...
> "McDLT" <no@no.no> wrote:
>
> > The one fight you really need a prot specced warrior for is Onyxia. She
> > resists taunts and if you lose aggro on her for more then a few seconds
it's
> > a wipe. For Onyxia our MT is prot specced and that's all he really does.
I'm
> > glad he likes tanking though because frankly, tanking isn't nearly as
fun
> > and relaxing as being a damage dealer.
>
> Damage dealer: Kills a target by pressing all the keys that are enabled.
> Tank: Pulls, AoEs, has an eye on every mob and every teammate, has to
> play the healers bodyguard, switches target, has to watch each mobs aggro,
> etc.
>
> For me, tanking's the most fun in this game Thank god opinions vary.
>
> Chris

 

[Guest]

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Mike in Mystic wrote:

> So, there you have it.
>
> Mike

Okay, so Arms/fury does the job.

Let me ask another question:

Protection talent:
"Defiance 5/5 - improves the threat from your attacks in defensive
stance by 15%."

To me this talent is by itself equivalent to:
"Improves total Raid damage by up to 15%"

Discuss?

 

[Dave]

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Mike in Mystic wrote:

> My "test" was to do 3 runs through Stratholme baron-side with nearly
> identical groups (on the 3rd trip 2 ppl were different, but the first 2
> trips were identical groups and 8 of the 10 on the 3rd was the same for all
> 3 trips). All of these ppl were in my guild and for the most part are well
> seasoned lvl 60s and very good players. The group consisted of 3 warriors,
> including myself, 2 rogues, a mage, 2 druids, 1 hunter and 1 warlock.

[...]

> What's my point? You do NOT need to be protection specced to be a good
> tank, and to be a good tank does not mean you have to give up your good
> damage dealing talents either.

You just profed what anyone knows anyway already:
You absolutely dont need a good tank (or good players anyway for that
matter) raiding an easy place like Strat, which is actually not even
that hard with a 5-man.
Just run in, whack everything to pieces and go out again.

Your 31/20 fury-arms "tank" fits perfectly for such a trivial task

I absolutely dont want to say that you arent a good tank or good player.
i just want to express that using a Strat-raid as a testing ground,
whter or not a tank's build is doing anytghing good is ...well, kinda
funny, since its so easy raiding that place, you can go in it in any
setup you like and still succeed.

Cheers

 

[Guest]

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"Mike in Mystic" <sandiedadog@hotmail.com> wrote:

> As for Christian's statment about damage dealers simply killing a target by
> pressing all enabled keys, that's just silly. The whole time I was running
> on this raids, I would charge a creep, mortal strike, sweeping strike,
> cleave, running around, watching the healers, watching the OTHER warriors,
> doing damage EVERYWHERE, taking aggro from EVERYTHING. It was chaos, it was
> dynamic, it was MAGNIFICENT.

1st: I wasn't really serious.
2nd: What you're describing isn't pure damage dealing, it's off-tanking. A
damage dealer like a rogue or a mage who's going to take aggro everywhere
won't survive very long.

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (53) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Lonewalker - Striding Tauren (15) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]

 

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"Dave" <dave@news.tk> wrote in message
news:da3hea$4jt$1@pinatubo.switch.ch...
> You just profed what anyone knows anyway already:
> You absolutely dont need a good tank (or good players anyway for that
> matter) raiding an easy place like Strat, which is actually not even
> that hard with a 5-man.
> Just run in, whack everything to pieces and go out again.
>
I realize Strath isn't that hard. But, honestly, NOWHERE in this game is
"hard" - at all. I've done molten core 10x now, and THAT isn't even hard
(IF you do it properly).

Since my time in strath I've done scholomance probably 5 more times and UBRS
about 20x and I've done just as well there as I did in strath, so I don't
think it was a fluke.

> Your 31/20 fury-arms "tank" fits perfectly for such a trivial task
>
> I absolutely dont want to say that you arent a good tank or good player.
> i just want to express that using a Strat-raid as a testing ground,
> whter or not a tank's build is doing anytghing good is ...well, kinda
> funny, since its so easy raiding that place, you can go in it in any
> setup you like and still succeed.
>
> Cheers

I still don't see the problem with switching to defensive stance, using
wardrobe to quickly go 1H + shield and "tank" if needed, while still
switching back to battle stance, again switching to duel or 2H and going
DPS - all in the same fight - isn't done more often (maybe it is?).

For example, I did duel axes all the way through UBRS until Drakkisath, then
switched to 1H+shield and main tanked him. And it was JUST as easy as the
many times I've done that when I was protection specced. And the rest of
the dungeon was a lot more fun while duel-wielding to get there.

This game has about 20% to do with skill (unless you're a brain dead 14 year
old hormone-wigged-out idiot).

 

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In <1120580662.095757.99130@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> "Babe Bridou" <babebridou@hotmail.com> writes:


> In a small raid, two main tanks are better than one, because you have
> twice as much time to use infinitely more mana efficient heals! Discuss!

Wrong. By definition, you cannot have two main tanks. The whole point
to having a main tank is having ONE person hold aggro on the mob, and thus
ONE main target for healing.

And even if it were as you say, it still wouldn't work. The two tanks
don't combine their hit points into one big pool; they are still two
separate characters, and at any given moment, only one of them will have
aggro and will be in need of healing, and if you want to prevent their
death, you will often have to use fast, mana-inefficient heals.

I suppose, maybe, if the two tanks had worked together for a long time
and knew each other's capabilities intimately, and they balanced their
aggro such that one could absolutely be trusted to steal aggro from the
other when his health drops dangerously low, and the healer had likewise
worked extensively with both tanks and was aware of this tactic, that it
might work. But even then, I doubt it. I just don't think the second
tank could reliably steal aggro in time to save the first tank without
any fast heals.

--
John Gordon "It's certainly uncontaminated by cheese."
gordon@panix.com

 

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John Gordon wrote:
> In <1120580662.095757.99130@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> "Babe Bridou" <babebridou@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>
>
>>In a small raid, two main tanks are better than one, because you have
>>twice as much time to use infinitely more mana efficient heals! Discuss!
>
>
> Wrong. By definition, you cannot have two main tanks. The whole point
> to having a main tank is having ONE person hold aggro on the mob, and thus
> ONE main target for healing.
>
> And even if it were as you say, it still wouldn't work. The two tanks
> don't combine their hit points into one big pool; they are still two
> separate characters, and at any given moment, only one of them will have
> aggro and will be in need of healing, and if you want to prevent their
> death, you will often have to use fast, mana-inefficient heals.
>
> I suppose, maybe, if the two tanks had worked together for a long time
> and knew each other's capabilities intimately, and they balanced their
> aggro such that one could absolutely be trusted to steal aggro from the
> other when his health drops dangerously low, and the healer had likewise
> worked extensively with both tanks and was aware of this tactic, that it
> might work. But even then, I doubt it. I just don't think the second
> tank could reliably steal aggro in time to save the first tank without
> any fast heals.
>


The suggestion here is to have half the mobs on tank one, and half the
mobs on tank two. Each tank takes half the damage. That way the priest
doubles the effect of Renew, because it's just as if he stacked two
renews on the main tank, mitigating more than 400 damage every tick with
max mana efficience, coupled with heal 3-4 spells, instead of 200 +
flash heal spams. But you make a good point, both tanks need to know
each other

That question was raised after our first guild raid, when I analyzed why
it was so much easier to be the only healer in an 8-people raid than the
only healer in a 4-men group...

....answer was:
_more group damage -> less mobs damage -> less heals
and
_more tanks -> less damage per second on each tank -> less flash heals

....which isn't relevant when it comes to single target bosses, of course

 

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In <42cad0aa$0$31774$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr> Babe Bridou <babebridou@hotmail.com> writes:

> The suggestion here is to have half the mobs on tank one, and half the
> mobs on tank two.

Oh. I was assuming a boss scenario with only one mob of consequence
to be tanked.

--
John Gordon "It's certainly uncontaminated by cheese."
gordon@panix.com

 

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"Babe Bridou" <babebridou@hotmail.com> wrote:

> The suggestion here is to have half the mobs on tank one, and half the
> mobs on tank two. Each tank takes half the damage. That way the priest
> doubles the effect of Renew, because it's just as if he stacked two
> renews on the main tank, mitigating more than 400 damage every tick with
> max mana efficience, coupled with heal 3-4 spells, instead of 200 +
> flash heal spams. But you make a good point, both tanks need to know
> each other
>
> That question was raised after our first guild raid, when I analyzed why
> it was so much easier to be the only healer in an 8-people raid than the
> only healer in a 4-men group...

I see mainly 3 advantages with that setup (or better: I think i
experienced them):
1st: You (the healer) can wait longer before you have to heal the first
time, which is a huge advantage in my eyes.
2nd: 2 Tanks = More tank per mob Meaning: if I can focus on 2 mobs
and Grunter on 3 (to pick up the example), we can build up more
aggro per mob than if one of us has to tank all 5.
3rd: 2 Tanks = Twice as much emergency (timed) abilities, like taunts,
AoE taunts, stuns, etc. The cloth wearers (especially the healer)
will be much saver (and in my eyes, the healer catching too much
aggro and the tank being unable to fix that is the worst thing
that can happen)

Chris

btw: Grunter wrote something about long holidays yesterday, so you
better forget that "hooray, I have 2 bodyguards" dream and
prepare to face the "I went to BRD and all that protected me
was a lousy drood" truth )

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (55) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Lonewalker - Striding Tauren (15) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]

 

[rene]

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"Christian Stauffer" <wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote:
> "Babe Bridou" <babebridou@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The suggestion here is to have half the mobs on tank one, and half the
> > mobs on tank two. Each tank takes half the damage. That way the priest
> > doubles the effect of Renew, because it's just as if he stacked two
> > renews on the main tank, mitigating more than 400 damage every tick
> > with max mana efficience, coupled with heal 3-4 spells, instead of 200
> > + flash heal spams. But you make a good point, both tanks need to know
> > each other
> >
> > That question was raised after our first guild raid, when I analyzed
> > why it was so much easier to be the only healer in an 8-people raid
> > than the only healer in a 4-men group...
>
> I see mainly 3 advantages with that setup (or better: I think i
> experienced them):
> 1st: You (the healer) can wait longer before you have to heal the first
> time, which is a huge advantage in my eyes.
> 2nd: 2 Tanks = More tank per mob Meaning: if I can focus on 2 mobs
> and Grunter on 3 (to pick up the example), we can build up more
> aggro per mob than if one of us has to tank all 5.
> 3rd: 2 Tanks = Twice as much emergency (timed) abilities, like taunts,
> AoE taunts, stuns, etc. The cloth wearers (especially the healer)
> will be much saver (and in my eyes, the healer catching too much
> aggro and the tank being unable to fix that is the worst thing
> that can happen)

4rd: if none of the two tanks is the puller and they manage to separate the
mobs such as no mob has "attention" on both players then healing one of
those tanks will only generate aggro on the mob that the tank is dealing
with but not on all mobs in the group.

The above statement sounds a bit weird so let me clarify it. The puller of
a mob group always has the "attention" of all mobs. Which means that the
mobs "know" the puller and have an entry on their aggro-list. Suppose that
a group of mobs (mob W, X, Y and Z) are pulled by hunter A. They all now
have A on their aggro list (albeit with a low aggro value unless Hunter
used a high-aggro spell to pull) Now tank B hits mob W and X who are
beelining to the hunter A. B is now on W and X's aggro list and going to
fight B since B has more aggro. Mobs Y and Z continue to chase hunter A,
they don't know B exist. Tank C now intercepts Y and Z and likewise is now
engaged in combat.

Hunter A is on all mob's aggro list but at the bottom. Tank B is on W and
X's aggro list on top and tank C on Y and Z's. Healer D was standing in the
background intensively staring at blue bars and didn't do a thing until
now. He's not on any mob's list. Now tank B needs healing, so priest D
heals him. Now since B is on mob's W and X's aggro list, the priest
generates aggro by healing and appears now on W and X's aggro list
(position on the list is depends on aggro generated compared to aggro from
tank B and hunter A). However, the priest does _not_ generate any aggro
what so ever on mob Y and Z since those don't even see the priest. They
have no "attention" on tank B which got healed and therefor the priest does
not generate aggro when healing B, no matter how much. Area effects and
damage from B on Y and Z of course cause those mobs to be aware of tank B
and then healing B will also generate aggro on them.

But as I said, if you manage to split a group so that not all mobs "know"
all warriors/tanks/damagedealers then this makes healing easier because
less aggro is generated (viewed on overall).

Conclusion is:

- healing the puller is always bad because this guarantees aggro on all
mobs in the group

- splitting a mob in several parts in a smart way makes healing much much
more easier because aggro by healing is limited to the subgroups.

- area of effect spells or uncoordinated all vs all makes the whole group
known to all mobs easily and should be avoided where possible.

- never pull with the healer.

At least that is how I understand the system and how it "feels" though I
did not specifically experiment this. Can be done easily though, just let
two warriors attack 2 separate mobs and then stop attacking (only taking
hits). Let them stand near another and start healing only one. Only the mob
on this player should at some point run towards the healer while the mob on
the other player is never going to attack the healer no matter how much the
first tank is healed.

So finally, when able to have several tanks and splitting mobs work, this
is a tremendous help for any priest, IMHO.

CU

René

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Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Rene" <invalid@email.addr> wrote:

> 4rd: if none of the two tanks is the puller and they manage to separate the
> mobs such as no mob has "attention" on both players then healing one of
> those tanks will only generate aggro on the mob that the tank is dealing
> with but not on all mobs in the group.
>
> [Explanation of the "Awareness" thingie]

Thanks a lot for adding this, it's a good point (although I don't know
how easy this works in a real fight).

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (55) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Lonewalker - Striding Tauren (15) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]

 

[rene]

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Christian Stauffer" <wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote:
> "Rene" <invalid@email.addr> wrote:
>
> > 4rd: if none of the two tanks is the puller and they manage to separate
> > the mobs such as no mob has "attention" on both players then healing
> > one of those tanks will only generate aggro on the mob that the tank is
> > dealing with but not on all mobs in the group.
> >
> > [Explanation of the "Awareness" thingie]
>
> Thanks a lot for adding this, it's a good point (although I don't know
> how easy this works in a real fight).

I believe it's easiest if you got a Hunter or Mage who pulls with one
single shot and then the Tanks/Warriors standing on "each side" where the
mobs runs through towards the puller and who "cherry pick" their mobs.

Sort of like this:
Tank A
(mobs)---->-->--> Puller, Healer (behind)
Tank B

Needs coordination, about as much as two Mages who both are going to sheep
each a mob. I've never been in a group where we did this intentionally but
it can happen ocasionally (and adds generally happen due to aggro radius so
they are often only on one player until more come helping)

CU

René

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