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Rogue Questions

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Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
July 7, 2005 8:09:16 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

I made a rogue awhile back, my first melee char in WoW, and have a few
general questions.

Along the lines of dual-weild. I haven't decided if I wanna go with swords
or daggers, any advice on that? I have 2 of each. The swords speed is 2.2
and the dagger's 1.4 but with obviously less damage. But even so the
daggers DPS is higher.
First, what happens if I use a dagger and a sword. I'm thinking that the
speed is only as fast as my slowest weap, so the dagger gets slowed to 2.2
as well? So in that case using one sword I may as well use both of em for
max damage? Or does the dagger strike at its speed and the sword at its
own?
Does it actually use the damage from both weaps in dual-weild as well? So
you can theoretically combine the DPS from both weaps? If that's true then
the sword/dagger combo would still do more damage than 2 swords?
Thx to anyone who can shed some light on the dual-weild issue for me!

More about : rogue questions

Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
July 7, 2005 8:09:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

In article <Mscze.124718$6g3.82096@tornado.texas.rr.com>,
diaboyos@aafa.net says...
> I made a rogue awhile back, my first melee char in WoW, and have a few
> general questions.
>
> Along the lines of dual-weild. I haven't decided if I wanna go with swords
> or daggers, any advice on that? I have 2 of each. The swords speed is 2.2
> and the dagger's 1.4 but with obviously less damage. But even so the
> daggers DPS is higher.
> First, what happens if I use a dagger and a sword. I'm thinking that the
> speed is only as fast as my slowest weap, so the dagger gets slowed to 2.2
> as well? So in that case using one sword I may as well use both of em for
> max damage? Or does the dagger strike at its speed and the sword at its
> own?
> Does it actually use the damage from both weaps in dual-weild as well? So
> you can theoretically combine the DPS from both weaps? If that's true then
> the sword/dagger combo would still do more damage than 2 swords?
> Thx to anyone who can shed some light on the dual-weild issue for me!

You are asking a very complex question, but I'll try to break it down
for you as simply as possible. Really, it all depends on your talent
build, but here are some key points to rogues:

1. Your special attacks (SS, Eviscerate, etc) are largely based off of
your main hand weapon damage. Because of this, unless you are a
Backstab/Ambush rogue, you want the *highest* possible damage in your
main hand. Some morons will tell you that you need a slow weapon, but
this has NO bearing on it. The only thing is that most high damage
weapons tend to be slower, so people somehow associate that with the
damage, but the reality is if you have a faster weapon with the same
high damage you want to go with the *faster* weapon, NOT the slower one.

2. Rogues use poison (or should if they don't), so since your offhand
does not affect your special attacks, you want to use the fastest
possible weapon in your offhand so that your poison has a chance to be
applied more often.

3. The reality of many servers (including mine) is that you take
whatever weapon you can get after about level 40, because there is a
severe dearth of good daggers at 45+. I have used the following in my
time as a rogue: dual daggers, dual swords, dual maces, sword dagger,
mace dagger - basically the best weapon I can get for each hand at
various levels. Currently I use a 37.2 DPS 73-132 dmg mace with a speed
of like 2.7 (don't remember for sure) in my main hand and a 40.0 DPS
dagger with a 1.4 speed in my offhand.

On a side note, train in guns, crossbows and bows when you have the
cash, because even though you rarely pull with ranged as a rogue, you
can get good stats from weapons (my current bow gives me +11 Agility)
and it's nice to finish off a runner with a ranged weapon sometimes.

As an aside, in raids I've been in with CTRaid mod running, I have been
the #1 damage dealer in the group. Outdamaging the other rogues and
mages. I generally account for about 16% of the group damage and the
closest other person is usually at around 13% of the group damage, and I
don't even have great gear yet.

--
Rob Berryhill
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
July 7, 2005 8:09:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

> Ps. The slow main hand advice is the result of how attack power
> affects rogue special attacks, and the reasoning is kinda math heavy -
> either accept it at face value or ask here to have it explained in
> every painfull detail. :) 

I haven't digested all of the nuances, but I think the basics can be
summarized simply. The rogue special attacks, in particular Sinister
Strike, happen instantly and can be repeated as often as you have the
energy. So, basically, the attack speed is a direct result of the
energy cost and your energy regeneration rate, which in no way depends
on your equipment. On the other hand, Sinister Strike damage is your
normal weapon damage plus a bit. Thus, if your damage largely depends
on Sinister Strike, you want the biggest damage number you can find.
You don't care if the swing speed is ungodly slow, since the speed of
your special attacks is not determined by the weapon. This means that
the DPS value (damage divided by attack speed) given by Blizzard is NOT
the best yardstick to use, in this case. There will undoubtedly be
gray areas - the total damage is the sum of your normal swings (for
which DPS is the best measure) and your special attacks, and a higher
DPS helps with the first part of the sum.

Having large boosts to your attack power also skews the results towards
slower weapons. Basically, 14 attack=1 DPS. Suppose you have +14
attack power. If you have a speed 1.0 weapon, that means +1 damage on
every swing. If your weapon has speed 3.0, you need +3 damage on every
swing to make it come out to +1 DPS. When you go to perform a Sinister
Strike, you get a bigger damage bonus from attack power with a slower
weapon. Attack power doesn't "know" that rogue special attacks have an
attack speed independent of how fast the weapons swings normally.

Finally, use common sense. A level 5 weapon, no matter how slow, is
just not going to out-perform a level 50 weapon. :)  Your total damage
is the sum of normal DPS and your special attacks, so don't completely
hose one number to raise the other one just a smidge. Practically, for
two near-equal DPS weapons, the better one for Sinister Strike style
combat will be the slower one, since it will have a higher raw damage
per swing.
Related resources
Can't find your answer ? Ask !
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
July 7, 2005 8:09:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Rob Berryhill" <rob_berryhill@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d37216f6a1c6cd2989736@news.west.cox.net...
> In article <Mscze.124718$6g3.82096@tornado.texas.rr.com>,
> diaboyos@aafa.net says...
> > I made a rogue awhile back, my first melee char in WoW, and have a few
> > general questions.
> >
> > Along the lines of dual-weild. I haven't decided if I wanna go with
swords
> > or daggers, any advice on that? I have 2 of each. The swords speed is
2.2
> > and the dagger's 1.4 but with obviously less damage. But even so the
> > daggers DPS is higher.
> > First, what happens if I use a dagger and a sword. I'm thinking that
the
> > speed is only as fast as my slowest weap, so the dagger gets slowed to
2.2
> > as well? So in that case using one sword I may as well use both of em
for
> > max damage? Or does the dagger strike at its speed and the sword at its
> > own?
> > Does it actually use the damage from both weaps in dual-weild as well?
So
> > you can theoretically combine the DPS from both weaps? If that's true
then
> > the sword/dagger combo would still do more damage than 2 swords?
> > Thx to anyone who can shed some light on the dual-weild issue for me!
>
> You are asking a very complex question, but I'll try to break it down
> for you as simply as possible. Really, it all depends on your talent
> build, but here are some key points to rogues:
>
> 1. Your special attacks (SS, Eviscerate, etc) are largely based off of
> your main hand weapon damage. Because of this, unless you are a
> Backstab/Ambush rogue, you want the *highest* possible damage in your
> main hand. Some morons will tell you that you need a slow weapon, but
> this has NO bearing on it.

If you check your attack power tab it adds bonus to DPS
therefore you get much higher damage from a slower weapon.
With either dagger mace or sword with identical dps you will see more dmage
not from just the weapon damge but from the attack power bonus.

The only thing is that most high damage
> weapons tend to be slower, so people somehow associate that with the
> damage, but the reality is if you have a faster weapon with the same
> high damage you want to go with the *faster* weapon, NOT the slower one.

Actually the slower one is much more damaging


> 2. Rogues use poison (or should if they don't), so since your offhand
> does not affect your special attacks, you want to use the fastest
> possible weapon in your offhand so that your poison has a chance to be
> applied more often.
>
> 3. The reality of many servers (including mine) is that you take
> whatever weapon you can get after about level 40, because there is a
> severe dearth of good daggers at 45+. I have used the following in my
> time as a rogue: dual daggers, dual swords, dual maces, sword dagger,
> mace dagger - basically the best weapon I can get for each hand at
> various levels. Currently I use a 37.2 DPS 73-132 dmg mace with a speed
> of like 2.7 (don't remember for sure) in my main hand and a 40.0 DPS
> dagger with a 1.4 speed in my offhand.
>
> On a side note, train in guns, crossbows and bows when you have the
> cash, because even though you rarely pull with ranged as a rogue, you
> can get good stats from weapons (my current bow gives me +11 Agility)
> and it's nice to finish off a runner with a ranged weapon sometimes.
>
> As an aside, in raids I've been in with CTRaid mod running, I have been
> the #1 damage dealer in the group. Outdamaging the other rogues and
> mages. I generally account for about 16% of the group damage and the
> closest other person is usually at around 13% of the group damage, and I
> don't even have great gear yet.
>
> --
> Rob Berryhill
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
July 7, 2005 8:56:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

In <Mscze.124718$6g3.82096@tornado.texas.rr.com> "Diaboyos" <diaboyos@aafa.net> writes:

> Along the lines of dual-weild. I haven't decided if I wanna go with swords
> or daggers, any advice on that? I have 2 of each. The swords speed is 2.2
> and the dagger's 1.4 but with obviously less damage. But even so the
> daggers DPS is higher.

It depends a lot on how you've done your talents, and if you play mostly
in a group, or mostly solo.

Basically, if you will be using Backstab and Ambush a lot, you want to
be using a dagger in your main hand, as those skills require a dagger.

However, Backstab requires (obviously) being behind your opponent, which
will only happen if you're in a group, and have other people to take
aggro.

If you won't often be behind your opponent, swords are probably better.

> First, what happens if I use a dagger and a sword. I'm thinking that the
> speed is only as fast as my slowest weap, so the dagger gets slowed to 2.2
> as well? So in that case using one sword I may as well use both of em for
> max damage? Or does the dagger strike at its speed and the sword at its
> own?

The weapons strike at their own speeds.

> Does it actually use the damage from both weaps in dual-weild as well?

Yes, but the damage on your off-hand weapon is reduced by quite a bit.
Most people just put the fastest weapon they can find in the off-hand,
and put some kind of enhancement on it (poison, enchantment, etc.)

--
John Gordon "It's certainly uncontaminated by cheese."
gordon@panix.com
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
July 7, 2005 10:00:35 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

In <MPG.1d37216f6a1c6cd2989736@news.west.cox.net> Rob Berryhill <rob_berryhill@hotmail.com> writes:

> Some morons will tell you that you need a slow weapon, but this has NO
> bearing on it. The only thing is that most high damage weapons tend to
> be slower, so people somehow associate that with the damage, but the
> reality is if you have a faster weapon with the same high damage you
> want to go with the *faster* weapon, NOT the slower one.

Speed DOES matter, because of how Attack Power is applied. Do you
understand how Attack Power works?

Quoting, yet again, an earlier post by Simon Nejmann:

Barman Shanker
51-95 Damage Speed 2.00 36.5 damage per second

Fang of the Mystics
54-101 Damage Speed 1.50 51.7 damage per second

The 36.5 dps Barman Shanker is a better mainhand dagger for a rogue than
the 51.7 dps Fang of the Mystic - because Barman Shanker is _slower_.

--
John Gordon "It's certainly uncontaminated by cheese."
gordon@panix.com
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
July 7, 2005 10:32:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Diaboyos" <diaboyos@aafa.net> wrote in message
news:Mscze.124718$6g3.82096@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> I made a rogue awhile back, my first melee char in WoW, and have a few
> general questions.
>
> Along the lines of dual-weild. I haven't decided if I wanna go with
swords
> or daggers, any advice on that? I have 2 of each. The swords speed is
2.2
> and the dagger's 1.4 but with obviously less damage. But even so the
> daggers DPS is higher.
> First, what happens if I use a dagger and a sword. I'm thinking that the
> speed is only as fast as my slowest weap, so the dagger gets slowed to 2.2
> as well? So in that case using one sword I may as well use both of em for
> max damage? Or does the dagger strike at its speed and the sword at its
> own?
> Does it actually use the damage from both weaps in dual-weild as well? So
> you can theoretically combine the DPS from both weaps? If that's true
then
> the sword/dagger combo would still do more damage than 2 swords?
> Thx to anyone who can shed some light on the dual-weild issue for me!
>
>

Much good advice all and I thank you. Where can I look in game to see this
attack power bonus so I can adjust the weaps and see the differences? Sorry
for the bother, I'm just new to melee :-(
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
July 7, 2005 10:47:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Diaboyos" <diaboyos@aafa.net> wrote in message
news:nzeze.124851$6g3.95776@tornado.texas.rr.com...
>
> "Diaboyos" <diaboyos@aafa.net> wrote in message
> news:Mscze.124718$6g3.82096@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> > I made a rogue awhile back, my first melee char in WoW, and have a few
> > general questions.
> >
> > Along the lines of dual-weild. I haven't decided if I wanna go with
> swords
> > or daggers, any advice on that? I have 2 of each. The swords speed is
> 2.2
> > and the dagger's 1.4 but with obviously less damage. But even so the
> > daggers DPS is higher.
> > First, what happens if I use a dagger and a sword. I'm thinking that
the
> > speed is only as fast as my slowest weap, so the dagger gets slowed to
2.2
> > as well? So in that case using one sword I may as well use both of em
for
> > max damage? Or does the dagger strike at its speed and the sword at its
> > own?
> > Does it actually use the damage from both weaps in dual-weild as well?
So
> > you can theoretically combine the DPS from both weaps? If that's true
> then
> > the sword/dagger combo would still do more damage than 2 swords?
> > Thx to anyone who can shed some light on the dual-weild issue for me!
> >
> >
>
> Much good advice all and I thank you. Where can I look in game to see
this
> attack power bonus so I can adjust the weaps and see the differences?
Sorry
> for the bother, I'm just new to melee :-(
>
>K I found where the attack power is. Right now no matter what combo I use
my attack power is not moving. However; my melee power goes up by 2 when I
have the dagger in the main and not the sword. About what level does this
slower weap attack power come into play?
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
July 7, 2005 11:23:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

In <JMeze.100233$j51.25327@tornado.texas.rr.com> "Diaboyos" <diaboyos@aafa.net> writes:

> K I found where the attack power is. Right now no matter what combo I use
> my attack power is not moving. However; my melee power goes up by 2 when I
> have the dagger in the main and not the sword. About what level does this
> slower weap attack power come into play?

Attack power is based on your Agility and Strength, and maybe weapon skill.
So unless those things change, you won't see a change in Attack Power.

--
John Gordon "It's certainly uncontaminated by cheese."
gordon@panix.com
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
July 8, 2005 12:13:20 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 16:09:16 GMT, "Diaboyos" <diaboyos@aafa.net>
wrote:

>I made a rogue awhile back, my first melee char in WoW, and have a few
>general questions.
>
>Along the lines of dual-weild. I haven't decided if I wanna go with swords
>or daggers, any advice on that? I have 2 of each. The swords speed is 2.2
>and the dagger's 1.4 but with obviously less damage. But even so the
>daggers DPS is higher.

As long as you are low level, just take the highest dps weapon you can
get - and if they are about the same, then choose the slowest one.
Later on, as you get more attack power (from level up, agility and
strength) getting a slow weapon becomes more of a priority.

This is all about the main hand, btw - you only get a bonus out of
having a slow main hand weapon.

For the off hand just take the highest dps weapon you can get, and
then at level ~20, when you learn to use poison, put the fastest
weapon you can get there and coat it in poison - this gives you more
chances to proc the poison. The procs from the poison is more
important than the off hand dps, because you only do half weapon
damage there (three quarters if you invest some talent points).

Within reason at least - don't dump your 30 dps, 1.8 speed weapon for
a 5 dps, 1.4 speed weapon, but you should consider it if you got a 25
dps, 1.4 speed weapon (or just keep both - the fast one is only better
as long as it is coated in poison).

>First, what happens if I use a dagger and a sword. I'm thinking that the
>speed is only as fast as my slowest weap, so the dagger gets slowed to 2.2
>as well? So in that case using one sword I may as well use both of em for
>max damage? Or does the dagger strike at its speed and the sword at its
>own?

They strike independantly of each other and use their own speed. What
you put in one hand does not affect the other hand in any way (beyond
general stats like +agility).

>Does it actually use the damage from both weaps in dual-weild as well? So
>you can theoretically combine the DPS from both weaps? If that's true then
>the sword/dagger combo would still do more damage than 2 swords?

When you dual wield the default miss rate goes up about 20%, and the
off hand only does 50% of the listed damage. But it still results in a
damage boost for you, so do dual wield - rogues can't really hold any
usefull off hand items anyway (eg. no shield).

Anyway, the quick guide is: Slow main hand, fast off hand.

But until you get your attack power up to levels worth mentioning
(start thinking about it at level ~25-30) you can ignore the slow main
hand advice, and the fast off hand advice only applies if it has been
poisoned.


Ps. The slow main hand advice is the result of how attack power
affects rogue special attacks, and the reasoning is kinda math heavy -
either accept it at face value or ask here to have it explained in
every painfull detail. :) 

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
July 8, 2005 7:16:20 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

In article <MPG.1d37216f6a1c6cd2989736@news.west.cox.net>,
Rob Berryhill <rob_berryhill@hotmail.com> wrote:

> In article <Mscze.124718$6g3.82096@tornado.texas.rr.com>,
> diaboyos@aafa.net says...
> > I made a rogue awhile back, my first melee char in WoW, and have a few
> > general questions.
> >
> > Along the lines of dual-weild. I haven't decided if I wanna go with swords
> > or daggers, any advice on that? I have 2 of each. The swords speed is 2.2
> > and the dagger's 1.4 but with obviously less damage. But even so the
> > daggers DPS is higher.
> > First, what happens if I use a dagger and a sword. I'm thinking that the
> > speed is only as fast as my slowest weap, so the dagger gets slowed to 2.2
> > as well? So in that case using one sword I may as well use both of em for
> > max damage? Or does the dagger strike at its speed and the sword at its
> > own?
> > Does it actually use the damage from both weaps in dual-weild as well? So
> > you can theoretically combine the DPS from both weaps? If that's true then
> > the sword/dagger combo would still do more damage than 2 swords?
> > Thx to anyone who can shed some light on the dual-weild issue for me!
>
> You are asking a very complex question, but I'll try to break it down
> for you as simply as possible. Really, it all depends on your talent
> build, but here are some key points to rogues:
>
> 1. Your special attacks (SS, Eviscerate, etc) are largely based off of
> your main hand weapon damage. Because of this, unless you are a
> Backstab/Ambush rogue, you want the *highest* possible damage in your
> main hand. Some morons will tell you that you need a slow weapon, but
> this has NO bearing on it. The only thing is that most high damage
> weapons tend to be slower, so people somehow associate that with the
> damage, but the reality is if you have a faster weapon with the same
> high damage you want to go with the *faster* weapon, NOT the slower one.

Pretty much - I'm weilding a fast Shadowblade, and it's my main killing
tool - I have a dagger equiped in offhand (forgetwhat, it has an icon of
the smaller of a samurai sword set) that I got for it's speed, to get
poison going ASAP, I don't even care about the crits from offhand (the
blade also gives me + skills). It's a good combo, and working really
well for me right now, as I tend to go toe to toe when fighting.

> 2. Rogues use poison (or should if they don't), so since your offhand
> does not affect your special attacks, you want to use the fastest
> possible weapon in your offhand so that your poison has a chance to be
> applied more often.

I don't fight without poison, ever.

Ever.

It's THE best edge you can have in a fight. I go upgrade/learn new
poisons long before I go learn new talents - and I'll blow gold on
poisons before I'll even look at the AH.

> 3. The reality of many servers (including mine) is that you take
> whatever weapon you can get after about level 40, because there is a
> severe dearth of good daggers at 45+. I have used the following in my
> time as a rogue: dual daggers, dual swords, dual maces, sword dagger,
> mace dagger - basically the best weapon I can get for each hand at
> various levels. Currently I use a 37.2 DPS 73-132 dmg mace with a speed
> of like 2.7 (don't remember for sure) in my main hand and a 40.0 DPS
> dagger with a 1.4 speed in my offhand.

Very true, I'm at 48, and while mt weapons are decent for now, I need an
upgrade soon, and there's not much in the AH these days.

> On a side note, train in guns, crossbows and bows when you have the
> cash, because even though you rarely pull with ranged as a rogue, you
> can get good stats from weapons (my current bow gives me +11 Agility)
> and it's nice to finish off a runner with a ranged weapon sometimes.

"Rarely pull"? Not with me around! :) 

I've taken on the pulling job many times, in pickup groups when we don't
have a hunter, and I do fairly well, and I pull constantly when I solo,
which has been up to 80% of my time (that's changing fast, I'm hitting
quests and instances that are just not soloable). I've gotten pretty
good at it, and have a good gun and buy mithril shot. I hate, hate,
hate, hate, hate, hate runners, and I love dropping them as they run
away. :) 

I'm nothing compared to a good hunter, but I have a blast with my gun.

They're really fun to irritate Horde with on Xroads raids or in BGs.
Little serious damage, but BOY do they get irked when I start plinking
at them. :) 

> As an aside, in raids I've been in with CTRaid mod running, I have been
> the #1 damage dealer in the group. Outdamaging the other rogues and
> mages. I generally account for about 16% of the group damage and the
> closest other person is usually at around 13% of the group damage, and I
> don't even have great gear yet.

I believe it, good rogues (which I am not - I still have a lot to learn)
are death on two legs - I've watched some at work that blew me away - I
watched a level 50 rogue in Uldaman use some of the coolest moves, I
can't quite firgure out what he/she was doing, she was darting, hitting,
and darting out, in a ring around the mobs, I tried it later on greyed
mobs, and I just can'tget the hang of movement like that with a mouse
and keyboard! I also need to get a good level-appropriate dagger and
start learning dual-dagger skills, and the dagger attacks, which I fully
admit I've skimped on.

I'd like to add, to the original poster, the Rogue forums at teh WOW
website are excellent if you want to dig into the hardcore mechanics of
the class - they tend to be a bit rigid there as far as builds go, but
the wealth of info there is astounding.
July 8, 2005 11:04:36 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Simon Nejmann <snejmann@worldonline.dk> wrote:

[Rogue's weapon of choice]
>
> Ps. The slow main hand advice is the result of how attack power
> affects rogue special attacks, and the reasoning is kinda math heavy -
> either accept it at face value or ask here to have it explained in
> every painfull detail. :) 

Pardon me for sneaking into this thread but is there a similarity to
Hunter's ranged attack? What I am asking is: Is a Hunter better off with a
slower high dps (cross-)bow or should he take a fast lower dps ranged
weapon? This class too gets bonus to ranged attack (and with talents and
+agi) so there _might_ lurk a similarity here. Any hints?

CU

René

--
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
July 8, 2005 1:01:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Brian" <brianmcadam@pobox.com> wrote:

> I love how you manage to be condescending and wrong at the same time. It's
> so quintessentially usenet.

/signed, YMMD

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (55) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Lonewalker - Striding Tauren (15) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
July 8, 2005 1:08:06 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Rob Berryhill wrote:
> Some morons will tell you that you need a slow weapon, but this has
> NO bearing on it. The only thing is that most high damage weapons
> tend to be slower, so people somehow associate that with the damage,
> but the reality is if you have a faster weapon with the same high
> damage you want to go with the *faster* weapon, NOT the slower one.

Damn, how often must we hear this? Rob, a moron is someone who not only
spreads incorrect information because he doesn't understand how things
work, but actually has the gall to insult other people who ARE correct!!

And in this case, that's you.

Cheers!
David...
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
July 8, 2005 1:35:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

I don't think hunters work in quite the same way. Hunters mostly make
"normal" ranged attacks, so Blizzard's listed DPS is the best measure
for that. Rogues are different in that they have special attacks, most
notably Sinister Strike, that can be used about every 2 seconds, and it
causes damage based on your regular weapon damage. Hunters have, for
example, Arcane Shot, that can be used every 5 or 6 seconds, but the
damage is a constant - it is not affected by the quality of your
weapon. If hunters had a special attack that could be used fairly
often (around 2-3 seconds until a repeat) and dealt damage based on
their weapon, they might follow similar logic. To the best of my
knowledge, they do not. Raptor Strike is the right kind of attack
(weapon damage plus a bit), but the long cooldown (6 seconds) makes it
less important. You may find some hunters who go for slow 2-handers to
get bigger Raptor Strikes, but in the grand scheme of things, Raptor
Strike is not likely to be a major component of most hunters DPS. :) 
Hunters can spam Wing Clip, but that deals a constant amount of damage
(not affected by the weapon).

> Is a Hunter better off with a
> slower high dps (cross-)bow or should he take a fast lower dps ranged
> weapon?

The logic for rogues would sometimes favor a slow weapon with slightly
lower DPS over a faster, higher DPS weapon. A slow, high DPS weapon
would be a no-brainer for this situation. Somewhere, right now, a
gnome rogue is trying to figure out how to use a blue 2-handed sword as
just a really big dagger. :) 

In summary, hunters just want the highest DPS bow/gun they can get. I
think the only reason attack speed might be relevant is if either you
are concerned about ammo consumption rate (so you want a slow weapon),
or if your pet somehow does not know Growl, so you need to worry about
how many shots you can get off before the mob finishes approaching you
and tries to eat your face. :)  (i.e. due to a quirk of math, two fast
shots might cause more damage than one slow shot, and you would run out
of time to complete a second slow shot). I guess you might also be in
this latter situation if the average lifetime of mobs is in
single-digit seconds.
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
July 8, 2005 4:53:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

In article <42ce24cf$0$1163$5402220f@news.sunrise.ch>, wildcard666
@bluewin.ch says...
> "Brian" <brianmcadam@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> > I love how you manage to be condescending and wrong at the same time. It's
> > so quintessentially usenet.
>
> /signed, YMMD
>
> Chris
>
>


Haha, I'm glad because my intention was to generate the reaction that it
did. I see this debate all the time on the WoW forums.

--
Rob Berryhill
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
July 8, 2005 4:54:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 19:23:58 +0000 (UTC), John Gordon
<gordon@panix.com> wrote:

>In <JMeze.100233$j51.25327@tornado.texas.rr.com> "Diaboyos" <diaboyos@aafa.net> writes:
>
>> K I found where the attack power is. Right now no matter what combo I use
>> my attack power is not moving. However; my melee power goes up by 2 when I
>> have the dagger in the main and not the sword. About what level does this
>> slower weap attack power come into play?
>
>Attack power is based on your Agility and Strength, and maybe weapon skill.
>So unless those things change, you won't see a change in Attack Power.

What he said.

1 agility = 1 strength = 1 attack power.
14 AP = 1 dps.

Try reading Prelgor's reply - it was a very good summary of how AP
affects Sinister Strike (and Backstab and Ambush).

If you have 140 AP (+10 dps), the difference between a 1.6 and a 2.8
speed weapon is 28 - 16 = 12 damage on Sinister Strike.
This is a fairly small difference, and as you don't have a big
selection of weapons anyway at low levels, I would say not to worry
too much about weapon speed before your AP passed the 150 mark.


Ps. 1 agility = 1 strength = 1 attack power.

But that is all strength does for you, while agility also gives
+toHit, +dodge, and +crit% - so for a rogue the number one stat is
agility, then stamina - 1 sta = 10 health and more health = survival =
good, then as a third priority comes strength.

And finally spirit and int share a distant fourth - spirit gives
health regen, but only a small boost and health doesn't regen in
combat, plus you you should eat/bandage when you are out of combat
anyway. Int gives you a small boost in how fast you get weapon skill
skillups - but you should hit like a whirlwind anyway, so don't
bother.

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
July 8, 2005 9:56:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

In article <bnAze.120364$Mb7.118193@fe26.usenetserver.com>,
me@privacy.net says...
> nice try. there's nothing to debate. delay adds attack power. it's a
> fact. you would've been better off not replying at all instead of
> pretending like it was deliberate.

ROFL, yeah, because it adds attack power it makes it better to weild a
slow weapon? Slower delay = more attacks. There is debate, whether or
not you choose to admit it.

--
Rob Berryhill
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
July 9, 2005 11:50:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Rob Berryhill wrote:
> In article <bnAze.120364$Mb7.118193@fe26.usenetserver.com>,
> me@privacy.net says...
>
>> nice try. there's nothing to debate. delay adds attack power. it's
>> a fact. you would've been better off not replying at all instead of
>> pretending like it was deliberate.
>
> ROFL, yeah, because it adds attack power it makes it better to weild
> a slow weapon? Slower delay = more attacks.

That paragraph is completely incoherent.

> There is debate, whether or not you choose to admit it.

There is absolutely no debate. There are just people who don't
understand how the game works spouting nonsense and confusing the people
who are asking questions because they want to learn.

Slower = better for Rogues' mainhand weapons, simple as that.

> Haha, I'm glad because my intention was to generate the reaction that
> it did. I see this debate all the time on the WoW forums.

Sorry, are you trying to say that you know what you said was incorrect,
and that you were just trolling?

Cheers!
David...
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
July 10, 2005 1:50:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

In <MPG.1d38c0aac068a961989739@news.west.cox.net> Rob Berryhill <rob_berryhill@hotmail.com> writes:

> In article <bnAze.120364$Mb7.118193@fe26.usenetserver.com>,
> me@privacy.net says...
> > nice try. there's nothing to debate. delay adds attack power. it's a
> > fact. you would've been better off not replying at all instead of
> > pretending like it was deliberate.

> ROFL, yeah, because it adds attack power it makes it better to weild a
> slow weapon?

Your attack power adds DPS to every strike of your weapon. A slower weapon
strikes less often, therefore quite a large chunk of damage is added to
every swing, as opposed to much smaller chunk of damage added to each
swing of a faster weapon.

But, since the rogue's special attacks are all instant-speed, this large
chunk of damage ends up being applied quite often, thus making the slower
weapon more desirable.

--
John Gordon "It's certainly uncontaminated by cheese."
gordon@panix.com
Anonymous
a b Ý World of Warcraft
July 11, 2005 8:14:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"David Carson" <david@eldergothSPAMTRAP.com> wrote:

> Sorry, are you trying to say that you know what you said was incorrect,
> and that you were just trolling?

Rob Berryhill in <MPG.1d38799db0a63932989737@news.west.cox.net>:
| Haha, I'm glad because my intention was to generate the reaction that it
| did. I see this debate all the time on the WoW forums.

Trolling = To write something in an offensive or any other way with
the only goal to see the (upset) reactions.

Therefore: Yes, he is trolling.

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (56) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Lonewalker - Striding Tauren (15) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
!