Due for my 5 yearly rebuild - Suggestions/Advice please

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spacejunk

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Hi guys,



It's been roughly 5 years since i upgraded my PC, and with the holidays not too far away, i want to make sure i have a rig capable of playing games like Bioshock- infinite, Hitman- Absolution on relatively high settings for when the holidays hit.


I would very much appreciate some build suggestions, as i am really rusty and not up to date on the latest and greatest tech. My budget is $2050aud


This is my current system:

Core2- E-7300-2.66ghz
Gigabyte-EP45-DS3R
HyperX-dual chanel - 1066mhz -4gig (running much slower due to mobo)
Silverstone-Zeus-750watt-PSU
GTX-560-1Gb
Logitech-Z5500 digital speakers
Lian Li- PC 75
3TB of mixed sata hard drives (most sata2 and old)
Windows-7 Professional 64bit


The reason i included the case specs, is because i think it needs replacing. Since it only supports 80mm fans and not much i can do to change that. Plus i would like to start using bigger fans for quieter operation. (New system will be Air cooled)

My only preferences being:

Mobo PCB must be Black in color, no red or bright blues.

The inclusion of a stand-alone audio processor, that does not burden the CPU. (not critical)

Something that has excellent storage options (8x sata + LSI support)

PCIE-3.0 capable

Quad channel memory support.

Case that has excellent air cooling options, and/or 140mm fan support.

A storage option that is suited for running a massive Steam and non-steam games directory. ( A few TB of installed games)




These are some of the components that i think might be good. My biggest problem is figuring out which Mobo i need.


Asrock - x79 extreme 11

This Mobo is fantastic, and covers all my preferences, but it's extremely expensive, meaning i will be sacrificing the quality of other critical components in the build.

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=138_711_1299&products_id=21084


NZXT Switch 810 Case White


Good looking case, that i think has good air cooling capacity. (you be the judge)

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25_238&products_id=19605



Intel Core i7 3820

I don't know how good this CPU is, but i can't really afford better.

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=187_346_1298&products_id=19588


Corsair Dominator CMP16GX3M4X1866C9 16GB (4x4GB) DDR3

Looks ok to me, again i doubt i can afford better.

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=186_538_1301&products_id=19080



Intel 330 Series 120GB SSD (system drive)


The major problem i have here is, i know i can't have all or even half my games installed on SSD's, so i figure getting one SSD for the system and a reasonably fast mechanical for the games. Though i don't know which hard drive would be good for this. All i need is 2-3TB of fast storage for my game installations.


http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=210_902_1221&products_id=20049


EDIT: GPU

ASUS GeForce GTX 680 DirectCU II Overclocked

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193_1377&products_id=20456





As you can see this build will put me over my budget by $160, so i'm in a bit of a conundrum here. Some help with this would be great.



--------------------------------- Final build components------------------------


ASUS GeForce GTX 670 DirectCU II
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193_1387&products_id=20212


Gigabyte G1-Sniper3 Motherboard
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=138_711_1183&products_id=20171

Intel Core i7 3770K
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=187_346_1184&products_id=20140


NZXT Switch 810 Case Matte Black
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25_238&products_id=20708


OCZ Vertex 4 128GB SSD
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=210_902_903&products_id=19985


Corsair Vengeance Black CMZ16GX3M4X1866C9 16GB (4x4GB) DDR3
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=186_538_1301&products_id=19216


Corsair AX1200 Gold Power Supply
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_354&products_id=15244




Total: $2115

------------------------ Optional x79 build------------------


ASRock X79 Extreme9 Motherboard
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=138_711_1299&products_id=19084


Intel Core i7 3820
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=187_346_1298&products_id=19588


Xigmatek Dark Knight Night Hawk CPU Cooler
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=207_23_1300&products_id=20458



ASUS GeForce GTX 670 DirectCU II
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193_1387&products_id=20212


NZXT Switch 810 Case White
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25_238&products_id=19605


OCZ Vertex 4 128GB SSD
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=210_902_903&products_id=19985


Corsair Vengeance Black CMZ16GX3M4X1866C9 16GB (4x4GB) DDR3
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=186_538_1301&products_id=19216


Corsair AX1200 Gold Power Supply
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_354&products_id=15244


Total: $2110
 
Solution
manofchalk
While it is true that LGA2011 will outlast LGA1155 as a socket, there is no reason for it. The extra processing power from 2011 CPU's just isn't needed in games. You picked the i7-3820 which is only a quad core with hyper-threading, which an LGA1155 i7 already is.

If you really want to future proof your build on consumer grade hardware, wait till 2013 when Haswell comes out. Its a new socket that will last until 2015 when Skylark comes out. That's the furthest you can get on an Intel socket, 2yrs.

And we have already been through how far you can future proof something. You cant over this kind of time frame.

It is cheaper (short and long term) to build the system you need now, instead of attempting to squeeze more performance out of...
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nekulturny

nekulturny

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Theres really no advantage to an i7 over an i5 for gaming. You could save quite a bit of money right there. Nor is there a real advantage for a gamer to get an x79 setup. Stick with LGA1155. Your wallet will thank you.

Also, the GTX 680s are something of a failure, in that GTX 670s are substantially cheaper, and perform just as well. If you want to spend the kind of money for a GTX 670, my advice would be to get a 7970, it outperforms both of them.

I would look for something like this:

CPU- Intel i5-3570K/2500K (both are equal for gaming)
Mobo- Decent Z68 or Z77 Chipset board (Asus, Asrock)
RAM- 8GB 2x4GB 1.5V DDR3 1600mhz (plenty) G.Skill, Corsair, really hard to go wrong with RAM

Video card- EVGA/Zotac GTX 670 or Sapphire Radeon 7970
SSD- Crucial M4 (at least 128GB)

CPU Cooler- CoolerMaster 212 Evo

Power- Pick wisely I would recommend taking a look at Proximon's list
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/322966-28-list-recommended-psus#t2430472


Note on sound cards- Stand alone sound cards really are not necessary, since you've missed out on the last 5 years of computer builds, even cheap boards come with powerful onboard sound processors which use almost zero system resources.
 
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spacejunk

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@ Kamen_bg


Hey,


Thank you for your input. You are right, that card seems more powerful and a lot cheaper. But it has one horrible HSF design.

If there's one thing i've learned about fans, it's that the smaller they are, the more noise they make. It's not just the DB rating, but small fans tend to have a very annoying "tone" could be described as a "whine" that will overpower every other noise emitting from your case. They are (for me) unbearable.



I would buy that in a heartbeat if it had a normal cooler. But if i did, there is the additional cost of a third party HSF combination to replace that monstrosity and also the risk of voiding my warranty by tampering with it.
 
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manofchalk

manofchalk

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Quite simply, even with Australia's high prices on tech, you will have trouble spending $2000 on a balanced gaming machine. The machine you have specced would be more suited for video editing or heavy computational tasks.

This is a build I did for another Aussie (there are more of us here than you may think) from the same store, its a pretty good gaming rig and comes in well under budget. Modified it a bit.

CPU: i5-3570k. $230
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=20138
Its the Ivy Bridge equivalent of the 2500k. Bit better performance, better energy efficiency. Supports PCI-3.

Mobo: AsRock Z77 Extreme4. $155
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=19867
Very good budget (not so much here in Aus) board, you dont have to go far to find praise for it.
http://www.tomshardware.com/review [...] 54-35.html

RAM: G.Skill Ares 8GB (2x4GB) 1600Mhz CL9 1.5v. $59
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=19632
Low Profile kit of fairly standard RAM.

GPU: Gigabyte GTX670 OC. $489
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=19823
Very good GPU made by a very good manufacturer. This will max out modern games at 1080p quite easily. Despite the factory overclock, you can push it further.

CPU Cooler: Coolermaster Hyper 212 EVO. $36
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=18670
The go-to budget cooler, I wouldn't be surprised if half the forum used these. Keeps my 3570k under 55C at full load (with dual fans).

HDD: 1TB Seagate Barracuda 7200RPM. $92
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=19747
Its a HDD, and a good value one. This HDD can be found for less at MSY. Get the 2 or 3TB models if you need it.

SSD: OCZ Vertex 4 128GB. $135
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=210_902_903&products_id=19985
One of the fastest SSD's on the market, and if OCZ keep pumping out updates, will only get faster.

PSU: Silverstone Strider 750W, 80+ Silver fully modular. $150
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=15349
Great power supply, haven't had any problems with mine. If you think you need it, the 850W is only $10 more.

OS: Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit OEM. $99
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=17003

Case choice is largely depending on your tastes, so I'l give you a couple of good case options with varying aesthetics.
Coolermaster HAF 912 Advanced. $105
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=15892

Corsair Carbide 400R. $118
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=18306

NZXT Phantom of various colours (gun-metal seems to be the popular one). $129
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] ath=25_238

Total: $1574 (if you pick the Phantom case).
Make sure to price check against MSY and Umart. Between those two and PC Case Gear, you will find the cheapest prices.

This build will serve your gaming needs just fine, and you have an extra $500 to get the all bells and whistles. Bigger/better case, LED fans/strips, water cooling, RAID 1 arrays and all that stuff.

 
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spacejunk

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Hey,


Thank you kindly for finding those items. That GPU is much cheaper, and i can always OC it myself. Looks to be a cool and quiet card, nice one!

Regards the i7 3770K, will i loose out on much performance ? I really need a powerful CPU because i seem to be always bottle-necked by my CPU. I play a lot of CPU intensive games such as Total war series, which maxes out my processor easily.

I already made the mistake of upgrading from a Pentium 4-3ghz to this Core-2, which turned out to be a horrible investment. I honestly cannot notice any difference, and in some cases my old P4 was faster. So it is imperative that this CPU upgrade will give at least 200% performance increase.
 
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nekulturny

nekulturny

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Regards the i7 3770K, will i loose out on much performance ? I really need a powerful CPU because i seem to be always bottle-necked by my CPU. I play a lot of CPU intensive games such as Total war series, which maxes out my processor easily.
Click to expand...

I'll put it this way. The only difference between the i5 and i7 is HyperThreading. HyperThreading is 4 extra "pretend" cores. They are useful in some circumstances like heavily threaded video editing. But even with the occasional use of software which can take advantage of HT, the i5 is still good enough for most people.

Games on the other hand are still being programmed in the same languages they were coded in 15 years ago, and because consoles dictate the PC gaming market, this is not going to change for probably a very long time. Games don't know what a HyperThread is, much less how to use it.
 
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jk47_99

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My apologies I didn't know you were in Australia! That link is to a US site.

I think that build from manofchalk is pretty good, the i5-3570k will be more than enough to handle any game in the future and you can overclock it like a beast. The 670 is the best card for your budget, the 680 won't give you much extra performance for the extra cost.
 
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spacejunk

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Hey,


Thank you for your detailed post. Those are some interesting points/claims about the disparities between the platforms. My reason for choosing LGA 2011 was to semi future proof my system for upcoming hardware changes/compatibilities, being that 1155 will be phased out long before 2011, and it's likely future generations of hardware will be orientated around 2011. So if i have to make an upgrade in a few years, i will still be on a viable platform.

But i will definitely look into the GTX-670's performance, if it is, as you say, comparable to the 680 then that will do just fine, and will mean i save money that can go towards other parts.




Hey,


Thank you very much for your input there. I think the main aim of this rebuild is to make my system as future-proof as possible, while also giving the best possible performance for my money. I don't mind spending all my money, as long as the end result is fit for purpose. I don't want to skimp on critical areas just for the sake of frivolous additions that don't have an impact on the systems integrity.


I have made the same mistake over and over of buying hardware that is just a "little" better than what i have, and in the end, the manufacturing marketing gimmicks are winning. That's why i have made a rule of not upgrading, unless it means at least double the performance. As little as i know about current tech, i will take an educated guess and say those suggested components means i will loose out quite a lot on performance and much needed features as opposed to my base build.


I understand why you have advised a more minimalistic system, and i appreciate the help. But i feel that build is skimping too much in critical areas. But for the most part, that is a great budget system that will definitely play today's games well. But i was trying to stretch my money just a little further, and as you can see i am so close.


Thank you again.
 
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nekulturny

nekulturny

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Well you're welcome. As far as the LGA2011, basically this is industrial-server grade stuff. The problem with "future proofing" is that in the long run its almost always going to be cheaper to buy what you need today, have it last you 3-4 years and then rebuild rather than spend a ton of money and try to squeeze many years out of it.

I mean, its your computer and you have to be happy with it, but honestly it isn't worth it. As far as the future of LGA2011. Don't bet on it. Intel changes CPU sockets like underwear. Even if you went with LGA2011 and they kept the socket for a couple years, lets say 3 or 4 years down the road you wanted to upgrade the CPU? Most likely you're going to be better off buying a more recent CPU which is probably going to include a new motherboard to put it on anyway.

As far as making investments, honestly I do know what I'm talking about lol. I know, I have trouble believing it myself.

This guy looks like a little kid, but he's a wise fellow from NCIX Canada (a very popular computer parts store in the US and Canada).. He'll basically tell you what I would tell you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK4ip08auGg

The only things that are "future proof" are your case, power supply, CD ROM drive and to some extent hard drives. Thats it. Everything else is going to be old junk in 4-5 years no matter what you do about it.

Hard drives can always be used as secondary drives even if faster ones replace them. Optical drives, I woudln't invest in anything more than a DVD-RW drive. Blu-ray honestly is a waste, its like the Sony MiniDisk (brief flash in the pan when portable MP3 players started coming out) of Optical drives. There are physical limitations to how fast disks can spin. And flash media is going to replace them, we're heading that way. For games, and software, very few people still have dial-up, with broadband becoming the standard you will find more and more that when you buy software in the store, you'll actually be buying a plastic placard with a product code on it to download. You already see this with Microsoft Office and Windows in stores.
 
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manofchalk

manofchalk

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You do have $500 to play with on my build, you could easily throw a 3770k, another 8GB of RAM, water cooler and bigger case on that.

i7-3770k. $355 (-$230 on the 3570k) +$125
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=187_346_1184&products_id=20140

RAM: G.Skill Ares 16GB (4x4GB) 1600Mhz. $110 (-$59 on the 8GB kit). +$51
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=186_912&products_id=19630

Water cooling: Corsair H100. $149 (-$36 on the 212 EVO). +$113
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=207_160_45&products_id=17961

Case: Coolermaster HAF-X. $190 (-$129 of the Phantom). +$61
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25_31&products_id=14840

PSU: Silverstone Strider Plus 850W 80+ Silver. $159 (-$149 of the 750W). +$10
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_995&products_id=13278

Additional cost: $360

That rig wont go out of date for a long time. No real need to update it until Broadwell (The "Ivy Bridge upgrade" to Haswell), or maybe even Skylark (Next major architecture after Haswell) comes out (estimated at 2015).

I agree with Nekulturny. Computer parts (especially processors) will always become outdated in a few years, even if you get top of the line stuff. Someone showed me a performance benchmark of a top of the line processor from 2008 (Intel Dual Core 2 Extreme something) compared to a 2500k, the 2500k won hands down. So even the greatest of hardware will be outclassed my mid-range components in a few years. Its Moore's law, processing power will double every 18 months, and so far it has held true.

The only "future-proof" components would be the case, HDD/SSD, optical and the PSU (to an extent, they do degrade over time). Maybe CPU heatsinks, but surely by the time you upgrade there will be better or they wont fit on a new socket.
 
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spacejunk

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Haha, Great post.

Then it's time for me to go check out some real-world applications for HT and see if it will make a difference where it matters. I have always been confused as to why HT has been around for so long, yet so little use has come of it, but you hit the nail on the head.

I'll also do some more research about the i5 and see how it benches. Thank you again. :)




All good mate, I think i got a little too excited there. :)

Since this system will be Air-cooled, i don't know just how much i can rely on Overclocking, especially on the CPU. But at any rate i will have a closer look at the 3570k.


Cheers.
 
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nekulturny

nekulturny

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It might have even been me who showed you it, lol. I don't remember, but yea Core2Extremes were $1000 when they came out, just for the CPU. And here it is 4 years later getting outperformed by a $220 CPU. Thats just the way it goes. The general rule of thumb is, after you spend that first $1000 on a computer build, it just gets more and more expensive for less and less performance improvement.

Now I will add something about watercooling. Since the H100 is brought into the discussion. As it is now in 2012, watercooling is less necessary to overclock CPUs, but it remains as dangerous as it ever was. Watercooling, while it may be "cool" to some, is not something that should be considered without taking everything into account. When they say watercooling, they're not kidding. Its a radiator with pipes filled with distilled water. While the risk is low, we all know water and electronics do not mix. And while unlikely, it is indeed possible a pipe can burst and destroy the system, also one has to take care to avoid water damage from condensation.
 
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spacejunk

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Wow! You guys are fantastic for giving me so much help with my build. I greatly appreciate all of you spending time in here.

I'm afraid i am too slow to keep up with replies and at this rate i will never get to bed lol. I am looking forward to coming back here tomorrow. :)
 
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manofchalk

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nekulturny

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Well, I do agree that FX-8120s/8150s have their place in the desktop PC market. Even for gaming, its only a handful of games that the FX will have a noticeable difference with the i5s in, and even in those games its going to be when you have a really high end graphics card and really want to crank up the eye candy. I probably would never buy an 8150 though, the 8120 is the same CPU just clocked lower, since both are fully overclockable, theres not much point in paying the extra $40 for one.

But to me its kind of like watercooling, before choosing a Bulldozer 8 core over an i5, one has to be informed and know what they're getting themselves into when owning one. Me personally, I won't buy another Intel rig as long as AMD has what I would consider to be viable choices for Desktop CPUs. But since I'm going into the tech field, I can't kid myself. Not everyone cares about anything but performance. It doesn't matter if the performance is real in terms of actual performance or whether its merely "benchmarkable". My aversion to Intel CPUs is not an issue of quality, its moral reprehension to their business practices. Sort of like Walmart, I hate what their run the mom and pop shops out of business with cheap Chinese imports has done to the American Economy, but I can't afford to shop anywhere else at this point, which is what perpetuates my hatred to them. At least with CPUs I still have a choice.

I'd say in the case of the OP, Intel is going to be the better option, especially since *I think* we've successfully showed him the light in regards to the LGA2011 platform, lest we not push our luck. :lol: He has the budget for an LGA1155 i7. That can at least be more justifiable than going server-grade with a 2011. Its only a handful of things that the Bulldozers can really stand up to the i7s in terms of productivity applications and with our luck hes going to want to play games like Civilization V that the Bulldozers do take a pretty sizable hit then he'll blame us lol.
 
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manofchalk

manofchalk

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Fully agree with you, i7's give a better performance, while the FX-8150 can get close to one aspect of its performance for about 1/3 less. But if you'v got the cash, an i7 is the obvious choice.

As for Intel's business practices, dunno? I know that Intel CPU's are manufactured in the Asia region (Taiwan is one place I know), but what company nowadays doesn't manufacture there.
Its almost worse here in Australia, we are neighbors to the region so importing goods requires minimal shipping (its often cheaper to buy games through Ebay from Hong Kong than to buy them retail). With it also being easy to outsource work there. Also with the Aus$ typically lower than the US (its a surprise we were above the US$ for so long, and right now), it is much cheaper for them to sell us goods than to you.
Plus, if you believe the media down here, we essentially owe our whole economic stability to China because of its massive growth and extremely large demand for raw goods (particularly ores and metals). So Australia is dependent on and trying to distance itself from China.
Australian products are also hard to come by, Australia just doesn't have the infrastructure or manpower (our total population is only 21 Million people over the largest country on earth.) to compete with China or even the US in the production of refined goods. Even Aussie icon, Holden, are starting to be bailed out by the government just to keep them afloat and in the country. Australia's largely depends on export of raw goods and tourism, we don't make that many products.
Politics and economics mate.

We suck at flame wars don't we?

Edit: I think I started a flame war on this thread by accident.
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/357197-31-gaming-machine-experts-help
 
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spacejunk

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Hehe, Well i wouldn't exactly call that a Flame war, but it was a good effort. :p






So true, I agree with pretty much everything you say. By "Future proof" i really mean a varying degree of it. I know from experience that it's futile to keep up with the rapid advancements in PC technology, but that doesn't stop me from finding a happy medium. The sweet spot of upgrade intervals does exist, I've done well in the past, but I've also done very badly.


I think it's best to buy/upgrade half way through the latest platform life-cycle. That way you get the latest platform, but after prices have had time to normalize. The only component i would consider buying at the peak of it's technological advancement is the Motherboard, that being the framework for all other future components. Buying at the start of it's life-cycle means you won't have to change whole platforms for upgrades for a relatively long time, which kind of reinforces the thought process behind buying that X79-extreme 11.

I know the Platform itself isn't brand-new, but it has useable features that you won't find on any other board, features that are actually well suited for my needs.



Thanks for following that up. Those are definitely some good options, and work out a little cheaper for me, though i am still in the process of researching performance levels between these products, specifically for gaming purposes. It sounds like you really know your stuff and have done your research, really appreciate the good advice. :)




Haha, nice post.

There is definitely some truth in that sarcasm, in that i know LGA2011 will be the better choice for crunching hard numbers, typically not needed in most games, but as you put it, some games rely on massive amounts of instructions and i do indeed play these types of games. I play a large variety of games, which means i will need a versatile system in terms of specifications.


Please do correct me if i am wrong, but won't the i7 be relatively good at both aspects of operation ?



On another topic, i have done quite a bit of research into the GPU side of things, and it turns out the GTX-670 will be the best option for me at this price range.


Here are the resources i used to make my decision:

A review and benchmarks of all seven 670 variations.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-670-test-review,3217-16.html


GTX-670 vs GTX-680 comparison:
http://www.hwcompare.com/12501/geforce-gtx-670-vs-geforce-gtx-680/



I have chosen the ASUS GeForce GTX 670 DirectCU II


It is the coolest and quietest 670, while also being very competitive in performance. Additionally, i stand to save $150. Thank you to all who suggested this great card.

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193_1387&products_id=20212
 
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