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Due for my 5 yearly rebuild - Suggestions/Advice please

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August 2, 2012 7:21:38 AM

Hi guys,



It's been roughly 5 years since i upgraded my PC, and with the holidays not too far away, i want to make sure i have a rig capable of playing games like Bioshock- infinite, Hitman- Absolution on relatively high settings for when the holidays hit.


I would very much appreciate some build suggestions, as i am really rusty and not up to date on the latest and greatest tech. My budget is $2050aud


This is my current system:

Core2- E-7300-2.66ghz
Gigabyte-EP45-DS3R
HyperX-dual chanel - 1066mhz -4gig (running much slower due to mobo)
Silverstone-Zeus-750watt-PSU
GTX-560-1Gb
Logitech-Z5500 digital speakers
Lian Li- PC 75
3TB of mixed sata hard drives (most sata2 and old)
Windows-7 Professional 64bit


The reason i included the case specs, is because i think it needs replacing. Since it only supports 80mm fans and not much i can do to change that. Plus i would like to start using bigger fans for quieter operation. (New system will be Air cooled)

My only preferences being:

Mobo PCB must be Black in color, no red or bright blues.

The inclusion of a stand-alone audio processor, that does not burden the CPU. (not critical)

Something that has excellent storage options (8x sata + LSI support)

PCIE-3.0 capable

Quad channel memory support.

Case that has excellent air cooling options, and/or 140mm fan support.

A storage option that is suited for running a massive Steam and non-steam games directory. ( A few TB of installed games)




These are some of the components that i think might be good. My biggest problem is figuring out which Mobo i need.


Asrock - x79 extreme 11

This Mobo is fantastic, and covers all my preferences, but it's extremely expensive, meaning i will be sacrificing the quality of other critical components in the build.

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...


NZXT Switch 810 Case White


Good looking case, that i think has good air cooling capacity. (you be the judge)

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...



Intel Core i7 3820

I don't know how good this CPU is, but i can't really afford better.

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...


Corsair Dominator CMP16GX3M4X1866C9 16GB (4x4GB) DDR3

Looks ok to me, again i doubt i can afford better.

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...



Intel 330 Series 120GB SSD (system drive)


The major problem i have here is, i know i can't have all or even half my games installed on SSD's, so i figure getting one SSD for the system and a reasonably fast mechanical for the games. Though i don't know which hard drive would be good for this. All i need is 2-3TB of fast storage for my game installations.


http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...


EDIT: GPU

ASUS GeForce GTX 680 DirectCU II Overclocked

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...





As you can see this build will put me over my budget by $160, so i'm in a bit of a conundrum here. Some help with this would be great.



--------------------------------- Final build components------------------------


ASUS GeForce GTX 670 DirectCU II
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...


Gigabyte G1-Sniper3 Motherboard
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...

Intel Core i7 3770K
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...


NZXT Switch 810 Case Matte Black
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...


OCZ Vertex 4 128GB SSD
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...


Corsair Vengeance Black CMZ16GX3M4X1866C9 16GB (4x4GB) DDR3
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...


Corsair AX1200 Gold Power Supply
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...




Total: $2115

------------------------ Optional x79 build------------------


ASRock X79 Extreme9 Motherboard

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...


Intel Core i7 3820
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...


Xigmatek Dark Knight Night Hawk CPU Cooler
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...



ASUS GeForce GTX 670 DirectCU II
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...


NZXT Switch 810 Case White
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...


OCZ Vertex 4 128GB SSD
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...


Corsair Vengeance Black CMZ16GX3M4X1866C9 16GB (4x4GB) DDR3
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...


Corsair AX1200 Gold Power Supply
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...


Total: $2110
August 2, 2012 9:08:54 AM

Why not drop the GPU to a 670, and then change the CPU to a i7 3770k?

If you overclock both, you'll get close to the performance of the parts you have listed already.
Related resources
a c 118 B Homebuilt system
August 2, 2012 9:19:52 AM

Theres really no advantage to an i7 over an i5 for gaming. You could save quite a bit of money right there. Nor is there a real advantage for a gamer to get an x79 setup. Stick with LGA1155. Your wallet will thank you.

Also, the GTX 680s are something of a failure, in that GTX 670s are substantially cheaper, and perform just as well. If you want to spend the kind of money for a GTX 670, my advice would be to get a 7970, it outperforms both of them.

I would look for something like this:

CPU- Intel i5-3570K/2500K (both are equal for gaming)
Mobo- Decent Z68 or Z77 Chipset board (Asus, Asrock)
RAM- 8GB 2x4GB 1.5V DDR3 1600mhz (plenty) G.Skill, Corsair, really hard to go wrong with RAM

Video card- EVGA/Zotac GTX 670 or Sapphire Radeon 7970
SSD- Crucial M4 (at least 128GB)

CPU Cooler- CoolerMaster 212 Evo

Power- Pick wisely I would recommend taking a look at Proximon's list
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/322966-28-list-recomm...


Note on sound cards- Stand alone sound cards really are not necessary, since you've missed out on the last 5 years of computer builds, even cheap boards come with powerful onboard sound processors which use almost zero system resources.
August 2, 2012 9:21:24 AM

@ Kamen_bg


Hey,


Thank you for your input. You are right, that card seems more powerful and a lot cheaper. But it has one horrible HSF design.

If there's one thing i've learned about fans, it's that the smaller they are, the more noise they make. It's not just the DB rating, but small fans tend to have a very annoying "tone" could be described as a "whine" that will overpower every other noise emitting from your case. They are (for me) unbearable.



I would buy that in a heartbeat if it had a normal cooler. But if i did, there is the additional cost of a third party HSF combination to replace that monstrosity and also the risk of voiding my warranty by tampering with it.
a c 105 B Homebuilt system
August 2, 2012 9:23:06 AM

Quite simply, even with Australia's high prices on tech, you will have trouble spending $2000 on a balanced gaming machine. The machine you have specced would be more suited for video editing or heavy computational tasks.

This is a build I did for another Aussie (there are more of us here than you may think) from the same store, its a pretty good gaming rig and comes in well under budget. Modified it a bit.

CPU: i5-3570k. $230
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=20138
Its the Ivy Bridge equivalent of the 2500k. Bit better performance, better energy efficiency. Supports PCI-3.

Mobo: AsRock Z77 Extreme4. $155
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=19867
Very good budget (not so much here in Aus) board, you dont have to go far to find praise for it.
http://www.tomshardware.com/review [...] 54-35.html

RAM: G.Skill Ares 8GB (2x4GB) 1600Mhz CL9 1.5v. $59
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=19632
Low Profile kit of fairly standard RAM.

GPU: Gigabyte GTX670 OC. $489
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=19823
Very good GPU made by a very good manufacturer. This will max out modern games at 1080p quite easily. Despite the factory overclock, you can push it further.

CPU Cooler: Coolermaster Hyper 212 EVO. $36
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=18670
The go-to budget cooler, I wouldn't be surprised if half the forum used these. Keeps my 3570k under 55C at full load (with dual fans).

HDD: 1TB Seagate Barracuda 7200RPM. $92
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=19747
Its a HDD, and a good value one. This HDD can be found for less at MSY. Get the 2 or 3TB models if you need it.

SSD: OCZ Vertex 4 128GB. $135
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...
One of the fastest SSD's on the market, and if OCZ keep pumping out updates, will only get faster.

PSU: Silverstone Strider 750W, 80+ Silver fully modular. $150
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=15349
Great power supply, haven't had any problems with mine. If you think you need it, the 850W is only $10 more.

OS: Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit OEM. $99
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=17003

Case choice is largely depending on your tastes, so I'l give you a couple of good case options with varying aesthetics.
Coolermaster HAF 912 Advanced. $105
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=15892

Corsair Carbide 400R. $118
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=18306

NZXT Phantom of various colours (gun-metal seems to be the popular one). $129
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] ath=25_238

Total: $1574 (if you pick the Phantom case).
Make sure to price check against MSY and Umart. Between those two and PC Case Gear, you will find the cheapest prices.

This build will serve your gaming needs just fine, and you have an extra $500 to get the all bells and whistles. Bigger/better case, LED fans/strips, water cooling, RAID 1 arrays and all that stuff.

August 2, 2012 9:36:15 AM

jk47_99 said:
Or I have even found the non OC Asus on newegg for $539

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

And the ivy bridge i7 3770k will be a lot better, or if you want to stay under budget and you are just gaming, why not get the i5 3570k? Just $229.99 with an additional $15 off!

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...



Hey,


Thank you kindly for finding those items. That GPU is much cheaper, and i can always OC it myself. Looks to be a cool and quiet card, nice one!

Regards the i7 3770K, will i loose out on much performance ? I really need a powerful CPU because i seem to be always bottle-necked by my CPU. I play a lot of CPU intensive games such as Total war series, which maxes out my processor easily.

I already made the mistake of upgrading from a Pentium 4-3ghz to this Core-2, which turned out to be a horrible investment. I honestly cannot notice any difference, and in some cases my old P4 was faster. So it is imperative that this CPU upgrade will give at least 200% performance increase.
a c 118 B Homebuilt system
August 2, 2012 9:40:22 AM

Quote:
Regards the i7 3770K, will i loose out on much performance ? I really need a powerful CPU because i seem to be always bottle-necked by my CPU. I play a lot of CPU intensive games such as Total war series, which maxes out my processor easily.


I'll put it this way. The only difference between the i5 and i7 is HyperThreading. HyperThreading is 4 extra "pretend" cores. They are useful in some circumstances like heavily threaded video editing. But even with the occasional use of software which can take advantage of HT, the i5 is still good enough for most people.

Games on the other hand are still being programmed in the same languages they were coded in 15 years ago, and because consoles dictate the PC gaming market, this is not going to change for probably a very long time. Games don't know what a HyperThread is, much less how to use it.
August 2, 2012 9:41:00 AM

My apologies I didn't know you were in Australia! That link is to a US site.

I think that build from manofchalk is pretty good, the i5-3570k will be more than enough to handle any game in the future and you can overclock it like a beast. The 670 is the best card for your budget, the 680 won't give you much extra performance for the extra cost.
August 2, 2012 10:15:30 AM

nekulturny said:
Theres really no advantage to an i7 over an i5 for gaming. You could save quite a bit of money right there. Nor is there a real advantage for a gamer to get an x79 setup. Stick with LGA1155. Your wallet will thank you.

Also, the GTX 680s are something of a failure, in that GTX 670s are substantially cheaper, and perform just as well. If you want to spend the kind of money for a GTX 670, my advice would be to get a 7970, it outperforms both of them.

I would look for something like this:

CPU- Intel i5-3570K/2500K (both are equal for gaming)
Mobo- Decent Z68 or Z77 Chipset board (Asus, Asrock)
RAM- 8GB 2x4GB 1.5V DDR3 1600mhz (plenty) G.Skill, Corsair, really hard to go wrong with RAM

Video card- EVGA/Zotac GTX 670 or Sapphire Radeon 7970
SSD- Crucial M4 (at least 128GB)

CPU Cooler- CoolerMaster 212 Evo

Power- Pick wisely I would recommend taking a look at Proximon's list
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/322966-28-list-recomm...


Note on sound cards- Stand alone sound cards really are not necessary, since you've missed out on the last 5 years of computer builds, even cheap boards come with powerful onboard sound processors which use almost zero system resources.



Hey,


Thank you for your detailed post. Those are some interesting points/claims about the disparities between the platforms. My reason for choosing LGA 2011 was to semi future proof my system for upcoming hardware changes/compatibilities, being that 1155 will be phased out long before 2011, and it's likely future generations of hardware will be orientated around 2011. So if i have to make an upgrade in a few years, i will still be on a viable platform.

But i will definitely look into the GTX-670's performance, if it is, as you say, comparable to the 680 then that will do just fine, and will mean i save money that can go towards other parts.

manofchalk said:
Quite simply, even with Australia's high prices on tech, you will have trouble spending $2000 on a balanced gaming machine. The machine you have specced would be more suited for video editing or heavy computational tasks.

This is a build I did for another Aussie (there are more of us here than you may think) from the same store, its a pretty good gaming rig and comes in well under budget. Modified it a bit.

CPU: i5-3570k. $230
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=20138
Its the Ivy Bridge equivalent of the 2500k. Bit better performance, better energy efficiency. Supports PCI-3.

Mobo: AsRock Z77 Extreme4. $155
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=19867
Very good budget (not so much here in Aus) board, you dont have to go far to find praise for it.
http://www.tomshardware.com/review [...] 54-35.html

RAM: G.Skill Ares 8GB (2x4GB) 1600Mhz CL9 1.5v. $59
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=19632
Low Profile kit of fairly standard RAM.

GPU: Gigabyte GTX670 OC. $489
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=19823
Very good GPU made by a very good manufacturer. This will max out modern games at 1080p quite easily. Despite the factory overclock, you can push it further.

CPU Cooler: Coolermaster Hyper 212 EVO. $36
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=18670
The go-to budget cooler, I wouldn't be surprised if half the forum used these. Keeps my 3570k under 55C at full load (with dual fans).

HDD: 1TB Seagate Barracuda 7200RPM. $92
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=19747
Its a HDD, and a good value one. This HDD can be found for less at MSY. Get the 2 or 3TB models if you need it.

SSD: OCZ Vertex 4 128GB. $135
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...
One of the fastest SSD's on the market, and if OCZ keep pumping out updates, will only get faster.

PSU: Silverstone Strider 750W, 80+ Silver fully modular. $150
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=15349
Great power supply, haven't had any problems with mine. If you think you need it, the 850W is only $10 more.

OS: Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit OEM. $99
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=17003

Case choice is largely depending on your tastes, so I'l give you a couple of good case options with varying aesthetics.
Coolermaster HAF 912 Advanced. $105
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=15892

Corsair Carbide 400R. $118
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] s_id=18306

NZXT Phantom of various colours (gun-metal seems to be the popular one). $129
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.ph [...] ath=25_238

Total: $1574 (if you pick the Phantom case).
Make sure to price check against MSY and Umart. Between those two and PC Case Gear, you will find the cheapest prices.

This build will serve your gaming needs just fine, and you have an extra $500 to get the all bells and whistles. Bigger/better case, LED fans/strips, water cooling, RAID 1 arrays and all that stuff.



Hey,


Thank you very much for your input there. I think the main aim of this rebuild is to make my system as future-proof as possible, while also giving the best possible performance for my money. I don't mind spending all my money, as long as the end result is fit for purpose. I don't want to skimp on critical areas just for the sake of frivolous additions that don't have an impact on the systems integrity.


I have made the same mistake over and over of buying hardware that is just a "little" better than what i have, and in the end, the manufacturing marketing gimmicks are winning. That's why i have made a rule of not upgrading, unless it means at least double the performance. As little as i know about current tech, i will take an educated guess and say those suggested components means i will loose out quite a lot on performance and much needed features as opposed to my base build.


I understand why you have advised a more minimalistic system, and i appreciate the help. But i feel that build is skimping too much in critical areas. But for the most part, that is a great budget system that will definitely play today's games well. But i was trying to stretch my money just a little further, and as you can see i am so close.


Thank you again.
a c 118 B Homebuilt system
August 2, 2012 10:32:55 AM

spacejunk said:
Hey,


Thank you for your detailed post. Those are some interesting points/claims about the disparities between the platforms. My reason for choosing LGA 2011 was to semi future proof my system for upcoming hardware changes/compatibilities, being that 1155 will be phased out long before 2011, and it's likely future generations of hardware will be orientated around 2011. So if i have to make an upgrade in a few years, i will still be on a viable platform.

But i will definitely look into the GTX-670's performance, if it is, as you say, comparable to the 680 then that will do just fine, and will mean i save money that can go towards other parts.




Well you're welcome. As far as the LGA2011, basically this is industrial-server grade stuff. The problem with "future proofing" is that in the long run its almost always going to be cheaper to buy what you need today, have it last you 3-4 years and then rebuild rather than spend a ton of money and try to squeeze many years out of it.

I mean, its your computer and you have to be happy with it, but honestly it isn't worth it. As far as the future of LGA2011. Don't bet on it. Intel changes CPU sockets like underwear. Even if you went with LGA2011 and they kept the socket for a couple years, lets say 3 or 4 years down the road you wanted to upgrade the CPU? Most likely you're going to be better off buying a more recent CPU which is probably going to include a new motherboard to put it on anyway.

As far as making investments, honestly I do know what I'm talking about lol. I know, I have trouble believing it myself.

This guy looks like a little kid, but he's a wise fellow from NCIX Canada (a very popular computer parts store in the US and Canada).. He'll basically tell you what I would tell you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK4ip08auGg

The only things that are "future proof" are your case, power supply, CD ROM drive and to some extent hard drives. Thats it. Everything else is going to be old junk in 4-5 years no matter what you do about it.

Hard drives can always be used as secondary drives even if faster ones replace them. Optical drives, I woudln't invest in anything more than a DVD-RW drive. Blu-ray honestly is a waste, its like the Sony MiniDisk (brief flash in the pan when portable MP3 players started coming out) of Optical drives. There are physical limitations to how fast disks can spin. And flash media is going to replace them, we're heading that way. For games, and software, very few people still have dial-up, with broadband becoming the standard you will find more and more that when you buy software in the store, you'll actually be buying a plastic placard with a product code on it to download. You already see this with Microsoft Office and Windows in stores.
a c 105 B Homebuilt system
August 2, 2012 10:34:41 AM

You do have $500 to play with on my build, you could easily throw a 3770k, another 8GB of RAM, water cooler and bigger case on that.

i7-3770k. $355 (-$230 on the 3570k) +$125
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...

RAM: G.Skill Ares 16GB (4x4GB) 1600Mhz. $110 (-$59 on the 8GB kit). +$51
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...

Water cooling: Corsair H100. $149 (-$36 on the 212 EVO). +$113
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...

Case: Coolermaster HAF-X. $190 (-$129 of the Phantom). +$61
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...

PSU: Silverstone Strider Plus 850W 80+ Silver. $159 (-$149 of the 750W). +$10
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...

Additional cost: $360

That rig wont go out of date for a long time. No real need to update it until Broadwell (The "Ivy Bridge upgrade" to Haswell), or maybe even Skylark (Next major architecture after Haswell) comes out (estimated at 2015).

I agree with Nekulturny. Computer parts (especially processors) will always become outdated in a few years, even if you get top of the line stuff. Someone showed me a performance benchmark of a top of the line processor from 2008 (Intel Dual Core 2 Extreme something) compared to a 2500k, the 2500k won hands down. So even the greatest of hardware will be outclassed my mid-range components in a few years. Its Moore's law, processing power will double every 18 months, and so far it has held true.

The only "future-proof" components would be the case, HDD/SSD, optical and the PSU (to an extent, they do degrade over time). Maybe CPU heatsinks, but surely by the time you upgrade there will be better or they wont fit on a new socket.
August 2, 2012 10:40:17 AM

nekulturny said:
Quote:
Regards the i7 3770K, will i loose out on much performance ? I really need a powerful CPU because i seem to be always bottle-necked by my CPU. I play a lot of CPU intensive games such as Total war series, which maxes out my processor easily.


I'll put it this way. The only difference between the i5 and i7 is HyperThreading. HyperThreading is 4 extra "pretend" cores. They are useful in some circumstances like heavily threaded video editing. But even with the occasional use of software which can take advantage of HT, the i5 is still good enough for most people.

Games on the other hand are still being programmed in the same languages they were coded in 15 years ago, and because consoles dictate the PC gaming market, this is not going to change for probably a very long time. Games don't know what a HyperThread is, much less how to use it.


Haha, Great post.

Then it's time for me to go check out some real-world applications for HT and see if it will make a difference where it matters. I have always been confused as to why HT has been around for so long, yet so little use has come of it, but you hit the nail on the head.

I'll also do some more research about the i5 and see how it benches. Thank you again. :) 

jk47_99 said:
My apologies I didn't know you were in Australia! That link is to a US site.

I think that build from manofchalk is pretty good, the i5-3570k will be more than enough to handle any game in the future and you can overclock it like a beast. The 670 is the best card for your budget, the 680 won't give you much extra performance for the extra cost.



All good mate, I think i got a little too excited there. :) 

Since this system will be Air-cooled, i don't know just how much i can rely on Overclocking, especially on the CPU. But at any rate i will have a closer look at the 3570k.


Cheers.
a c 118 B Homebuilt system
August 2, 2012 10:51:46 AM

manofchalk said:


That rig wont go out of date for a long time. No real need to update it until Broadwell (The "Ivy Bridge upgrade" to Haswell), or maybe even Skylark (Next major architecture after Haswell) comes out (estimated at 2015).

I agree with Nekulturny. Computer parts (especially processors) will always become outdated in a few years, even if you get top of the line stuff. Someone showed me a performance benchmark of a top of the line processor from 2008 (Intel Dual Core 2 Extreme something) compared to a 2500k, the 2500k won hands down. So even the greatest of hardware will be outclassed my mid-range components in a few years. Its Moore's law, processing power will double every 18 months, and so far it has held true.

The only "future-proof" components would be the case, HDD/SSD, optical and the PSU (to an extent, they do degrade over time). Maybe CPU heatsinks, but surely by the time you upgrade there will be better or they wont fit on a new socket.


It might have even been me who showed you it, lol. I don't remember, but yea Core2Extremes were $1000 when they came out, just for the CPU. And here it is 4 years later getting outperformed by a $220 CPU. Thats just the way it goes. The general rule of thumb is, after you spend that first $1000 on a computer build, it just gets more and more expensive for less and less performance improvement.

Now I will add something about watercooling. Since the H100 is brought into the discussion. As it is now in 2012, watercooling is less necessary to overclock CPUs, but it remains as dangerous as it ever was. Watercooling, while it may be "cool" to some, is not something that should be considered without taking everything into account. When they say watercooling, they're not kidding. Its a radiator with pipes filled with distilled water. While the risk is low, we all know water and electronics do not mix. And while unlikely, it is indeed possible a pipe can burst and destroy the system, also one has to take care to avoid water damage from condensation.
August 2, 2012 11:04:45 AM



Wow! You guys are fantastic for giving me so much help with my build. I greatly appreciate all of you spending time in here.

I'm afraid i am too slow to keep up with replies and at this rate i will never get to bed lol. I am looking forward to coming back here tomorrow. :) 
a c 105 B Homebuilt system
August 2, 2012 11:12:20 AM

Completely understand the need for sleep. Dont let us stop you. Just expect a full-on flame war by the time you get back :lol: 
a c 118 B Homebuilt system
August 2, 2012 11:28:08 AM

Have a good night!

manofchalk said:
Just expect a full-on flame war by the time you get back :lol: 

lol do you want to start it or should I?
a c 105 B Homebuilt system
August 2, 2012 11:36:33 AM

AMD rules? You have to admit for an editing build on a budget, the FX-8150 is the best option.
a c 118 B Homebuilt system
August 2, 2012 11:49:12 AM

Can't argue with that bro! Good stuff. DA Fx-4100 even is better than them fail Intel chips!
*tries to keep a straight face*
August 2, 2012 12:29:50 PM

Lol, you guys are great. Good advice too.
a c 118 B Homebuilt system
August 2, 2012 12:40:21 PM

manofchalk said:
Damn, that was my actual opinion.
A $200 processor (less than an i5) that can get close to a 2600k ($290) in multi-threaded tasks is no mean feat. And in some games it does have better performance.

http://www.hardwareheaven.com/reviews/1285/pg7/amd-fx-8...
http://www.hardwareheaven.com/reviews/1285/pg10/amd-fx-...

Well, I do agree that FX-8120s/8150s have their place in the desktop PC market. Even for gaming, its only a handful of games that the FX will have a noticeable difference with the i5s in, and even in those games its going to be when you have a really high end graphics card and really want to crank up the eye candy. I probably would never buy an 8150 though, the 8120 is the same CPU just clocked lower, since both are fully overclockable, theres not much point in paying the extra $40 for one.

But to me its kind of like watercooling, before choosing a Bulldozer 8 core over an i5, one has to be informed and know what they're getting themselves into when owning one. Me personally, I won't buy another Intel rig as long as AMD has what I would consider to be viable choices for Desktop CPUs. But since I'm going into the tech field, I can't kid myself. Not everyone cares about anything but performance. It doesn't matter if the performance is real in terms of actual performance or whether its merely "benchmarkable". My aversion to Intel CPUs is not an issue of quality, its moral reprehension to their business practices. Sort of like Walmart, I hate what their run the mom and pop shops out of business with cheap Chinese imports has done to the American Economy, but I can't afford to shop anywhere else at this point, which is what perpetuates my hatred to them. At least with CPUs I still have a choice.

I'd say in the case of the OP, Intel is going to be the better option, especially since *I think* we've successfully showed him the light in regards to the LGA2011 platform, lest we not push our luck. :lol:  He has the budget for an LGA1155 i7. That can at least be more justifiable than going server-grade with a 2011. Its only a handful of things that the Bulldozers can really stand up to the i7s in terms of productivity applications and with our luck hes going to want to play games like Civilization V that the Bulldozers do take a pretty sizable hit then he'll blame us lol.
a c 105 B Homebuilt system
August 2, 2012 12:59:03 PM

Fully agree with you, i7's give a better performance, while the FX-8150 can get close to one aspect of its performance for about 1/3 less. But if you'v got the cash, an i7 is the obvious choice.

As for Intel's business practices, dunno? I know that Intel CPU's are manufactured in the Asia region (Taiwan is one place I know), but what company nowadays doesn't manufacture there.
Its almost worse here in Australia, we are neighbors to the region so importing goods requires minimal shipping (its often cheaper to buy games through Ebay from Hong Kong than to buy them retail). With it also being easy to outsource work there. Also with the Aus$ typically lower than the US (its a surprise we were above the US$ for so long, and right now), it is much cheaper for them to sell us goods than to you.
Plus, if you believe the media down here, we essentially owe our whole economic stability to China because of its massive growth and extremely large demand for raw goods (particularly ores and metals). So Australia is dependent on and trying to distance itself from China.
Australian products are also hard to come by, Australia just doesn't have the infrastructure or manpower (our total population is only 21 Million people over the largest country on earth.) to compete with China or even the US in the production of refined goods. Even Aussie icon, Holden, are starting to be bailed out by the government just to keep them afloat and in the country. Australia's largely depends on export of raw goods and tourism, we don't make that many products.
Politics and economics mate.

We suck at flame wars don't we?

Edit: I think I started a flame war on this thread by accident.
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/357197-31-gaming-mach...
August 3, 2012 4:51:16 AM

Hehe, Well i wouldn't exactly call that a Flame war, but it was a good effort. :p 



nekulturny said:
Well you're welcome. As far as the LGA2011, basically this is industrial-server grade stuff. The problem with "future proofing" is that in the long run its almost always going to be cheaper to buy what you need today, have it last you 3-4 years and then rebuild rather than spend a ton of money and try to squeeze many years out of it.

I mean, its your computer and you have to be happy with it, but honestly it isn't worth it. As far as the future of LGA2011. Don't bet on it. Intel changes CPU sockets like underwear. Even if you went with LGA2011 and they kept the socket for a couple years, lets say 3 or 4 years down the road you wanted to upgrade the CPU? Most likely you're going to be better off buying a more recent CPU which is probably going to include a new motherboard to put it on anyway.

As far as making investments, honestly I do know what I'm talking about lol. I know, I have trouble believing it myself.

This guy looks like a little kid, but he's a wise fellow from NCIX Canada (a very popular computer parts store in the US and Canada).. He'll basically tell you what I would tell you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK4ip08auGg

The only things that are "future proof" are your case, power supply, CD ROM drive and to some extent hard drives. Thats it. Everything else is going to be old junk in 4-5 years no matter what you do about it.

Hard drives can always be used as secondary drives even if faster ones replace them. Optical drives, I woudln't invest in anything more than a DVD-RW drive. Blu-ray honestly is a waste, its like the Sony MiniDisk (brief flash in the pan when portable MP3 players started coming out) of Optical drives. There are physical limitations to how fast disks can spin. And flash media is going to replace them, we're heading that way. For games, and software, very few people still have dial-up, with broadband becoming the standard you will find more and more that when you buy software in the store, you'll actually be buying a plastic placard with a product code on it to download. You already see this with Microsoft Office and Windows in stores.



So true, I agree with pretty much everything you say. By "Future proof" i really mean a varying degree of it. I know from experience that it's futile to keep up with the rapid advancements in PC technology, but that doesn't stop me from finding a happy medium. The sweet spot of upgrade intervals does exist, I've done well in the past, but I've also done very badly.


I think it's best to buy/upgrade half way through the latest platform life-cycle. That way you get the latest platform, but after prices have had time to normalize. The only component i would consider buying at the peak of it's technological advancement is the Motherboard, that being the framework for all other future components. Buying at the start of it's life-cycle means you won't have to change whole platforms for upgrades for a relatively long time, which kind of reinforces the thought process behind buying that X79-extreme 11.

I know the Platform itself isn't brand-new, but it has useable features that you won't find on any other board, features that are actually well suited for my needs.

manofchalk said:
You do have $500 to play with on my build, you could easily throw a 3770k, another 8GB of RAM, water cooler and bigger case on that.

i7-3770k. $355 (-$230 on the 3570k) +$125
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...

RAM: G.Skill Ares 16GB (4x4GB) 1600Mhz. $110 (-$59 on the 8GB kit). +$51
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...

Water cooling: Corsair H100. $149 (-$36 on the 212 EVO). +$113
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...

Case: Coolermaster HAF-X. $190 (-$129 of the Phantom). +$61
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...

PSU: Silverstone Strider Plus 850W 80+ Silver. $159 (-$149 of the 750W). +$10
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...

Additional cost: $360

That rig wont go out of date for a long time. No real need to update it until Broadwell (The "Ivy Bridge upgrade" to Haswell), or maybe even Skylark (Next major architecture after Haswell) comes out (estimated at 2015).

I agree with Nekulturny. Computer parts (especially processors) will always become outdated in a few years, even if you get top of the line stuff. Someone showed me a performance benchmark of a top of the line processor from 2008 (Intel Dual Core 2 Extreme something) compared to a 2500k, the 2500k won hands down. So even the greatest of hardware will be outclassed my mid-range components in a few years. Its Moore's law, processing power will double every 18 months, and so far it has held true.

The only "future-proof" components would be the case, HDD/SSD, optical and the PSU (to an extent, they do degrade over time). Maybe CPU heatsinks, but surely by the time you upgrade there will be better or they wont fit on a new socket.


Thanks for following that up. Those are definitely some good options, and work out a little cheaper for me, though i am still in the process of researching performance levels between these products, specifically for gaming purposes. It sounds like you really know your stuff and have done your research, really appreciate the good advice. :) 

nekulturny said:
Well, I do agree that FX-8120s/8150s have their place in the desktop PC market. Even for gaming, its only a handful of games that the FX will have a noticeable difference with the i5s in, and even in those games its going to be when you have a really high end graphics card and really want to crank up the eye candy. I probably would never buy an 8150 though, the 8120 is the same CPU just clocked lower, since both are fully overclockable, theres not much point in paying the extra $40 for one.

But to me its kind of like watercooling, before choosing a Bulldozer 8 core over an i5, one has to be informed and know what they're getting themselves into when owning one. Me personally, I won't buy another Intel rig as long as AMD has what I would consider to be viable choices for Desktop CPUs. But since I'm going into the tech field, I can't kid myself. Not everyone cares about anything but performance. It doesn't matter if the performance is real in terms of actual performance or whether its merely "benchmarkable". My aversion to Intel CPUs is not an issue of quality, its moral reprehension to their business practices. Sort of like Walmart, I hate what their run the mom and pop shops out of business with cheap Chinese imports has done to the American Economy, but I can't afford to shop anywhere else at this point, which is what perpetuates my hatred to them. At least with CPUs I still have a choice.

I'd say in the case of the OP, Intel is going to be the better option, especially since *I think* we've successfully showed him the light in regards to the LGA2011 platform, lest we not push our luck. :lol:  He has the budget for an LGA1155 i7. That can at least be more justifiable than going server-grade with a 2011. Its only a handful of things that the Bulldozers can really stand up to the i7s in terms of productivity applications and with our luck hes going to want to play games like Civilization V that the Bulldozers do take a pretty sizable hit then he'll blame us lol.



Haha, nice post.

There is definitely some truth in that sarcasm, in that i know LGA2011 will be the better choice for crunching hard numbers, typically not needed in most games, but as you put it, some games rely on massive amounts of instructions and i do indeed play these types of games. I play a large variety of games, which means i will need a versatile system in terms of specifications.


Please do correct me if i am wrong, but won't the i7 be relatively good at both aspects of operation ?



On another topic, i have done quite a bit of research into the GPU side of things, and it turns out the GTX-670 will be the best option for me at this price range.


Here are the resources i used to make my decision:

A review and benchmarks of all seven 670 variations.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-670-tes...


GTX-670 vs GTX-680 comparison:
http://www.hwcompare.com/12501/geforce-gtx-670-vs-gefor...



I have chosen the ASUS GeForce GTX 670 DirectCU II


It is the coolest and quietest 670, while also being very competitive in performance. Additionally, i stand to save $150. Thank you to all who suggested this great card.

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...
a c 118 B Homebuilt system
August 3, 2012 5:38:14 AM

lol, the flame war doesn't work out so well when you agree with the other guy!

The GTX 670 is definitely the best bang for the buck right now for high end graphics card. AMD 7970 remains the current champion in terms of performance (it fell behind at first, but AMD did a Drivers update and took the crown back from Nvidia), but that has to be reckoned with the GTX 670s better price to performance ratio. You'd be happy with either one though. The Asus GTX 670 DirectCU II is a very nice choice.



a c 118 B Homebuilt system
August 3, 2012 5:47:58 AM

manofchalk said:
Fully agree with you, i7's give a better performance, while the FX-8150 can get close to one aspect of its performance for about 1/3 less. But if you'v got the cash, an i7 is the obvious choice.

As for Intel's business practices, dunno? I know that Intel CPU's are manufactured in the Asia region (Taiwan is one place I know), but what company nowadays doesn't manufacture there.
Its almost worse here in Australia, we are neighbors to the region so importing goods requires minimal shipping (its often cheaper to buy games through Ebay from Hong Kong than to buy them retail). With it also being easy to outsource work there. Also with the Aus$ typically lower than the US (its a surprise we were above the US$ for so long, and right now), it is much cheaper for them to sell us goods than to you.
Plus, if you believe the media down here, we essentially owe our whole economic stability to China because of its massive growth and extremely large demand for raw goods (particularly ores and metals). So Australia is dependent on and trying to distance itself from China.
Australian products are also hard to come by, Australia just doesn't have the infrastructure or manpower (our total population is only 21 Million people over the largest country on earth.) to compete with China or even the US in the production of refined goods. Even Aussie icon, Holden, are starting to be bailed out by the government just to keep them afloat and in the country. Australia's largely depends on export of raw goods and tourism, we don't make that many products.
Politics and economics mate.

We suck at flame wars don't we?

Edit: I think I started a flame war on this thread by accident.
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/357197-31-gaming-mach...

That guy in that other thread you linked is smoking crack. Skyrim takes a pretty nasty hit with the Bulldozers. The problem is its a console port from Xbox360, and a some of the detail work that is normally done by a graphics card is coded to be done by the CPU. So this is one game that wants more than two cores (Xbox360 uses a Tri-core Xeon CPU). Bulldozer with its shared L2 Cache and Floating point unit really gets its ass kicked by Skyrim. Maybe on the lowest detail it will get 60FPS, but not happening at Ultra settings in 1080p. 100FPS? Get out of town.

As far as my thing with Intel its largely their monopoly activities, not so much Asian manufacture. Intel has been fined by both the US Government and European Union for it, as well as settled with AMD for 1.25 Billion dollars for their illegal misdeeds. They may have superior CPUs, but quality is not the sole reason they outsell AMD 5 to 1 in the CPU market currently. Bullying companies into carrying their products exclusively (lest they forfeit discounts- aka bribery/extortion), they even pressured game manufacturers to deliberately code games so that they would detect the user has an AMD processor and make the game perform worse at one point. That level of greed just aggravates me.


a c 105 B Homebuilt system
August 3, 2012 6:59:51 AM

A GTX670 is the high end card to get right now, its $150 (in Aus) cheaper than a 680 (card above it) and performs identically with an overclock (EDIT: In America, where prices aren't ridiculous)

The HD7970 is also a good card (on par/ bit above with the 680 for performance, better in higher resolutions), and a worthy option if multi-monitor gaming is a possibility.
Its 3GB of VRAM is important when you have multiple 1080p screens. Eyefinity is AMD's utility for setting up multi-monitor gaming, and is light years ahead of what Nvidia offers (Just like Nvidia is way ahead on AMD for 3D gaming).

Actually, in Aus, the GTX670 is way more expensive than in the US (~$150 more than the US), but HD7970's seems to be around the same price. You can get Gigabyte GTX670's and 7970's for the same price.
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...
or the ASUS 7970, but I would advise against this as it takes up 3 slots, rather than the two the Gigabyte take. Same Price.
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...

In light of this information, may I kindly suggest the HD7970 (though take into account I am a bit biased toward AMD cards :lol:  ).
a c 118 B Homebuilt system
August 3, 2012 7:02:55 AM

I've always bought Nvidia cards myself. I'm not really a "fanboy" of either one. But my next upgrade (Hopefully Spring to replace my 550 TI) I'm probably going to be looking for an AMD card, just for a change of pace. I probably won't go as heavy as 7970. Maybe 7850 or 7870 or whatever the offerings are in AMD's 8xxx series, which I think is set for next year at some point.
August 3, 2012 10:07:23 AM

manofchalk said:
A GTX670 is the high end card to get right now, its $150 (in Aus) cheaper than a 680 (card above it) and performs identically with an overclock (EDIT: In America, where prices aren't ridiculous)

The HD7970 is also a good card (on par/ bit above with the 680 for performance, better in higher resolutions), and a worthy option if multi-monitor gaming is a possibility.
Its 3GB of VRAM is important when you have multiple 1080p screens. Eyefinity is AMD's utility for setting up multi-monitor gaming, and is light years ahead of what Nvidia offers (Just like Nvidia is way ahead on AMD for 3D gaming).

Actually, in Aus, the GTX670 is way more expensive than in the US (~$150 more than the US), but HD7970's seems to be around the same price. You can get Gigabyte GTX670's and 7970's for the same price.
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...
or the ASUS 7970, but I would advise against this as it takes up 3 slots, rather than the two the Gigabyte take. Same Price.
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...

In light of this information, may I kindly suggest the HD7970 (though take into account I am a bit biased toward AMD cards :lol:  ).




Hey,


The 7970 was definitely in contention for this build, and even though the 7970 has better performance in some areas, it's not without it's drawbacks.


As you put it, the main area you would see an improvement over the 670, is when running ultra high resolutions, thanks to the 384bit interface and larger available memory. This is something i won't be able to take advantage of as i always use LCD TV displays, with a resolution of only 1360x768. Call me old-fashioned, or downright crazy, but i hate the image quality of proper monitors, they look grainy and weird even at high resolutions. I have been gaming on a 26inch v-series Sony bravia for some years now, and there is nothing i have seen that looks as smooth and has better color reproduction/amplification to suit my tastes.

That really being the only area where the 7970 excels, it seems to have more cons that outweigh this advantage. As far as i can tell the 670 still has better Pixel and Texel rates, but according to benchmarks they also run cooler and consume less power. Another advantage, and perhaps the most important one is that the 670 ( or any Nvidia card) has much better Driver support, which can make a massive difference in real world applications.


It's not that i dislike ATI or AMD respectively, but they are the underdog in the market, and for me it makes more sense to go to the most established manufacturer, where you know they have the resources to ensure the best quality without compromise. I have the same mentality when buying CPU's, i just instinctively pick Intel right off the bat for the same reasons, and generally they are usually leading in the industry.



Thank you very much for bringing that to my attention. :) 




a c 118 B Homebuilt system
August 3, 2012 10:26:19 AM

I still maintain that you'll be happy with either one you choose. So don't think I'm trying to talk you out of the GTX 670, but I will clear some things up.

Actually AMD/ATI holds a bigger market share than Nvidia. Technically Nvidia is the "underdog", in terms of units sold. At least, if this is accurate anyway.


http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/graphics/display/201108091...

I guess its easy for people to point to the lesser AMD processors and forget that it really has no bearing on the graphics side of things. ATI Radeon stood alone for years, they're only part of AMD now through acquisition, in 2006 their performance hasn't suffered.

Now Nvidia is older, founded in 1993, (ATI Radeon founded in 2000)

Another thing I want to address is this:

Quote:
Another advantage, and perhaps the most important one is that the 670 ( or any Nvidia card) has much better Driver support,

This is something I have heard MANY times. And just as many times I've heard it mentioned, I have questioned those who do to provide evidence that Radeon's driver's support is any worse than Nvidia. I have always been disappointed. I'm content to chalk this up as an "old wives tale" until someone backs it up with evidence.

Edit: Another thought I have on the Drivers. The 7970 has been out since January. Nvidia's GTX 6 series is a newer architecture released March/April-ish. As such, the 7970 is a more mature card. So its more likely to have the better drivers. (Which with the recent Catalyst 12.7 release, it does).
August 3, 2012 11:19:14 AM

nekulturny said:
I still maintain that you'll be happy with either one you choose. So don't think I'm trying to talk you out of the GTX 670, but I will clear some things up.

Actually AMD/ATI holds a bigger market share than Nvidia. Technically Nvidia is the "underdog", in terms of units sold. At least, if this is accurate anyway.


http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/graphics/display/201108091...

I guess its easy for people to point to the lesser AMD processors and forget that it really has no bearing on the graphics side of things. ATI Radeon stood alone for years, they're only part of AMD now through acquisition, in 2006 their performance hasn't suffered.

Now Nvidia is older, founded in 1993, (ATI Radeon founded in 2000)

Another thing I want to address is this:

Quote:
Another advantage, and perhaps the most important one is that the 670 ( or any Nvidia card) has much better Driver support,

This is something I have heard MANY times. And just as many times I've heard it mentioned, I have questioned those who do to provide evidence that Radeon's driver's support is any worse than Nvidia. I have always been disappointed. I'm content to chalk this up as an "old wives tale" until someone backs it up with evidence.




If you take into consideration this will be the first time that AMD has surpassed Nvidia in shares in a very long period, which i think is inevitable at some point and is, to my knowledge, a direct result of a hardware development fluctuation and some poor manufacturing decisions on Nvidia's behalf. Also remember it is only a one "Quarter" assessment. I think at this stage it's simply a price war between them, and you have to question why Nvidia hasn't already dropped prices to a more competitive level. I personally believe AMD's success has come from a better understanding of the market demographic, in hindsight, they know that people are more switched-on, and are less willing to spend $1500 for a GPU when they know it will be surpassed by something much cheaper in the not too distant future. AMD's current market strategy revolves around this mentality, and it's working, for now.



I think another important question to be asked is how AMD can afford to undercut Nvidia to such a degree, when really you would think Nvidia would be in the best position to do this, unless they are being downright greedy and trying to over-capitalize, or is it that people buying these cards from AMD are unaware of some hidden and possibly negligible cost-cutting measures. Logic would have you believe, that dominating an industry for so long would give you a massive advantage and the ability to be extremely flexible on price-points, but Nvidia has shown no signs of this. It will be very interesting to see how this pans out. However i would still say AMD is very much the "underdog" in the industry. I think it's safe to say that if push comes to shove, Nvidia can and will stomp on AMD, simply because it has the resources to do so.


Regarding Driver support, i am not one to speak from extensive experience, having owned only one ATI card. But at the time forums were filled with angry ATI users for lack of driver support. That and word of mouth, it is as you say, thrown around a lot, and possibly much less of a problem these days, but it's one less worry as i have never had any driver related issues with Nvidia and they tend to release new Drivers quite rapidly, which can only be a good thing.


Cheers for the advice. :) 
a c 118 B Homebuilt system
August 3, 2012 11:47:04 AM

But thats not really it at all. Take the GTX 5 Series, btw, prices are winding down on them since Nvidia is bringing their new 6 series online. But for months now in the recent past, AMD has had a better performing video card at almost every price point up against Nvidia. Its not that they're cutting costs to stay competitive with, its just plain that they had superior products.

AMD video cards also tend to have much more overclocking potential than their Nvidia counterparts. But even without that, stock to stock AMD outperformed. Like I said, these prices are probably out of date now, but this is what we've seen.


High end- GTX 590 was Nvidia's flagship card, For about the same price you could crossfire 2 7970s and they outperform heavily.

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/588?vs=516

Stepping down we had the GTX 580 here again, a single 7970 wipes the floor with it for about the same price:

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/508?vs=517

GTX 570 Its direct competitor from AMD is the 7870, not only is the 7870 superior but the 7850 which is lower, overclocks well enough that it performs on par with with GTX 570
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/548?vs=518

560 TI vs 7850
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/549?vs=547

550 TI vs 7770 and even the older AMD 6870 and 6850 throws it around like a rag doll
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/536?vs=541
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/540?vs=541
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/539?vs=541

Quote:
AMD's current market strategy revolves around this mentality, and it's working, for now.


Well, lol I never considered price competition to be a bad thing.

Quote:
or is it that people buying these cards from AMD are unaware of some hidden and possibly negligible cost-cutting measures.

Like what? lol

Quote:
Logic would have you believe, that dominating an industry for so long would give you a massive advantage and the ability to be extremely flexible on price-points, but Nvidia has shown no signs of this.

They have, they are right now. As it is, like I mentioned, as Nvida slashes prices to get rid of their 5 series inventory. As it is now, the 560 TI specifically, while the 7850 is superior, can be had for a pretty nice price. At least here in the US anyway.


----

If you want a horror story about Nvidia though I can give you one that I experienced. Just for fun. Like I said, I think you should go with the GTX 670, if you're apprehensive about an AMD card, for the sake of my reputation on the forum, I wouldn't want you to buy something you were unsure about in the first place and happenstance something goes wrong with it and I get blamed for it.

But lol,

Several years ago my mother bought a nearly $4000 Dell XPS laptop for my sister when she was going to college. It has a Geforce 8 series GPU. Now I don't know if you're familiar with these, but they had a major flaw directly attributed to poor design. They overheat and literally melt themselves to death because of bad silicon. There was a class action lawsuit on it against Nvidia. The chips couldn't simply be replaced because they are soldered to the motherboard. The whole board has to be replaced. Dell, Lenovo and HP laptops all had this same chip in it.

Now this laptop from what I understand had problems with it, but at the time I was living about 3 hours away from my family in Pennsylvania, and at the time I really didn't know enough about computers to do anything about it anyway. But my sister eventually joined the military, dropped out of college and left the computer behind because of the problems it had.

One day when I was visiting, I found the laptop and got permission to play with it. I own the laptop now. I found out about the problem with the video chip. But guess what? Too late to do anything about it, the time to file a claim had already expired. The laptop still works, I put a copper shim over the chip to help cool it (the heatsink doesn't even make direct contact with the chip on its own, what dumbass thought that was a good thing I'll never know). The damage for the most part is already done, it bluescreens just playing a silly java game like Runescape.

So basically, my mother lost $4000 and its all Nvidia's fault. AMD video cards have never had a problem like that from such a foolish oversight as to not thoroughly test the chips to assure that they're not cooking themselves to death. Obviously I still buy Nvidia, but if that had of been my 4 grand down the tube, you can bet I wouldn't ever again. If you want to know why AMD is outselling, that could have a lot to do with it too. That was a pretty nasty situation, they continued to sell those chips even after it was known they were defective rather than pull them from production.

More info on it:
http://www.infoworld.com/d/security-central/lawsuit-cla...
a c 105 B Homebuilt system
August 3, 2012 12:20:03 PM

I have a similar opinion to Nekulturny, quite simply I have seen no evidence that AMD cards are of lesser quality than Nvidia, or ever heard of this "secret" flaw. I imagine that with the tech community, where every component before, upon and well after release is being continuously benchmarked, pulled apart and scrutinized, would have found this flaw by now.

The manufacturing quality of the individual cards comes down to the manufacturers. That's why people buy Gigabyte, ASUS, MSY, etc instead of say Palit or VTX3D.

Supposedly bad drivers from AMD is nonsense. After all, the HD7970 is back on top for performance from a driver update, not any new or changed hardware. A quick Google search found no conclusive evidence of bad drivers, and tons of threads about how people have had no issues with either side, or agree that both company's occasionally put out bad drivers.
Only thread I found that was outright negative to AMD within 3 posts turned into a flame war. I wouldn't put much stock in it.

Price for performance, its only near the high end that Nvidia can compete (This is US prices, down here AMD wins just because Nvidia cards cost $150 more than they should). the HD78XX series dominates the mid range, and below that the 6870/6950 performs better then the Nvidia equivalents. Especially if you let other factors come in to play, the 78XX series overclocks very well and is much more energy efficient than the equivalent Fermi cards (5XX cards).

So after that long spiel about AMD's superiority and/or lack of inferiority. Either the GTX670 or HD7970 will perform just fine. I just recommend the HD7970 as its equivalent to a 680 at stock, so it can be pushed much further, while a 670 has to be overclocked to hit 680 speeds. The 3GB of VRAM will help in bigger/more monitors if you decide to later, and wasn't the whole point of the build to be future proof?
August 4, 2012 12:12:22 AM




I think both of you took that post out of context. I never said AMD is any worse or any better than Nvidia, I was simply pointing out that Nvidia is a more established company.


My remark about the manufacturing quality of AMD was not a "claim" it was a question, a hypothetical situation and the only one i could think of that could justify AMD selling superior products for less, which seems to be the case here.


As already stated, i don't have a problem with AMD, but more accurately i stick with what has worked for me in the past. I have spent roughly 15 hours comparing both the HD7970 and the GTX670, in this time i have learned the 670 is cooler, quieter, uses less power and takes up less room while offering almost identical performance, simply put it's the better card for my needs.


Maybe it's best not to derail this thread any further with obsessive fanboyism and get back to my build lol. :) 


a c 105 B Homebuilt system
August 4, 2012 12:23:12 AM

Hardly call it obsessive...
And the thread de-railed long ago.

So, any concerns? The rig seems fine to me.
August 4, 2012 12:53:30 AM

manofchalk said:
Hardly call it obsessive...
And the thread de-railed long ago.

So, any concerns? The rig seems fine to me.




Hey,


Just to clear things up, I didn't mean any offense by that, i was just having trouble focusing on my build after i while, but i did really enjoy the discussion. Sorry if came across arrogant or rude, i didn't mean to be. :) 


On the build side of things, i'm having second thoughts about the Extreme 11 and the usefulness of opting for LGA2011. I've been reading so many forums and reviews to the point i have forum UI burnt into my eyeballs, and i still cannot decide which socket is best for my needs.


Most people, here and abroad, suggest the 1155 + Z77 chipset for hardcore gaming, while others doubt the longevity of the platform. Ultimately, i just want the hardware infrastructure to play quality games at quality settings for the next 5-6 years without needing upgrades.


As you already know, most of my system components are roughly 6 years old, minus the VGA. This upgrade interval seems to work best for me, as i am not a rich man. I would very much like to have the same happen for the coming 5-6 year period.

Any thoughts ?


Best solution

a c 105 B Homebuilt system
August 4, 2012 1:11:35 AM
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While it is true that LGA2011 will outlast LGA1155 as a socket, there is no reason for it. The extra processing power from 2011 CPU's just isn't needed in games. You picked the i7-3820 which is only a quad core with hyper-threading, which an LGA1155 i7 already is.

If you really want to future proof your build on consumer grade hardware, wait till 2013 when Haswell comes out. Its a new socket that will last until 2015 when Skylark comes out. That's the furthest you can get on an Intel socket, 2yrs.

And we have already been through how far you can future proof something. You cant over this kind of time frame.

It is cheaper (short and long term) to build the system you need now, instead of attempting to squeeze more performance out of it. Quite simply, the higher up the performance ladder you go, the more it costs each time to go up a rung.

Remember, getting good components that don't age like the rest (Case, PSU, etc) will reduce the cost of your next build.
August 4, 2012 2:20:42 AM


Yeah, i think you have firmly pointed out the error of my ways, and with that said, maybe i should take your advice and go with 1155 for now.


I checked out some benchmarks of the 3770K which seems like a very nice choice, But being a little more expensive than the 3820, which i'm fine with because i stand to save $300-400 on the motherboard now. That should leave me with enough money to buy those mechanical drives i need so much. :ange: 

Intel Core i7 3770K
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...


Also, i am still no closer to choosing a Z77 mobo. The only one's with the features i want also have colors that will conflict with my intended scheme. Trying to find something that has more than 4 sataIII 6gb/s ports, storage is really my main concern here.

There is this Asus board that has decent storage options, but it's so blue, which will not go well with my Green theme. Also it lacks the X-fast555 technology of the Asrock boards.

ASUS P8Z77-V DELUXE Motherboard
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...


Failing that, there is this Asrock board, which also sports some good storage options and will more or less adhere to my color scheme.

ASRock Z77 Extreme9 Motherboard
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...


Or this one:

ASUS P8Z77-V PREMIUM Motherboard
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...


Or would you recommend something entirely different ?


Thank you for sticking through this, i know it's been a bumpy ride lol. :bounce: 

a c 105 B Homebuilt system
August 4, 2012 3:05:27 AM

XFast stuff is AsRock developed software, you wont find it on other boards. ASUS will have its own equivalent suite of software, or you can download other software that will do the same.

Only real difference I see between the V Deluxe and Premium is an inbuilt SSD cache and Thunderbolt. Which isnt worth the price hike IMO.

If you want a green motherboard, your plenty out of options unless you get this Gigabyte G1-Sniper. I ran a quick look through its specs and looks great. Six SATA3 ports and four SATA2, 4x PCI-E slots (So Quad Crossfire/SLI is a possibility).
Gigabyte G1 Sniper3. $365
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...

Though if you get it, you will need an E-ATX case (Like the HAF-X I recommended), otherwise it wont fit.

Also just remember that if you need more SATA ports, you can always buy a PCI RAID card which can get you more ports. Despite being a RAID card, you can use the drives normally.

This isnt technically a RAID card, but it will give you more 2 more SATA3 ports
Astrotek PCI Express. $27
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...
August 4, 2012 3:41:27 AM



Wow, that is a gorgeous mobo with plenty of storage. It also has the Soundcore3d on board which is great! It will also fit into the NZXT-switch 810 just fine, though with those colors, maybe i should opt for the Black version.

Looks like a solid choice man, thanks much for finding that. :D 



Just one other thing if i may. It says these modules only support X79 - Z68 - P67 Chipsets, is there a reason i can't use them on a Z77 ?

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...
a c 105 B Homebuilt system
August 4, 2012 5:47:07 AM

You can use them on Z77, as far as im aware the only restrictions on RAM to platform was with the X58 platform. Chances are those were the platforms out when the kit was released, so thats whats its verified.

Though I must ask why that kit? This kit is identical (except 1600Mhz instead of 1866Mhz, no performance diffrence between them though) and cheaper. Low Profile as well so it wont get in the way of anything.
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...
a c 118 B Homebuilt system
August 4, 2012 6:08:01 AM

Quote:
Only real difference I see between the V Deluxe and Premium is an inbuilt SSD cache and Thunderbolt. Which isnt worth the price hike IMO.

Yea, nobody really uses the SSD cache, since its better performance-wise just to get a higher capacity SSD and run it as the main boot drive. Thunderbolt technology looks fancy and all but, it has all the trappings of BetaMax, I realize some people might not even know what BetaMax is. Thats my point lol. When it comes to industry standards, quality does not always prevail over quantity. I may be wrong, but Thunderbolt smells like something to me that will cost a fortune, be all the rage for a couple years, then die quietly and alone.

I agree with chalk, your Intel CPU is going to run the RAM at 1333mhz by default anyway. The speed on the RAM is not what it will run at, rather it is the maximum speed the manufacturers the RAM to be stable at. Just like CPUs, it can be overclocked to run higher than its factory specifications. It can even run lower.

There isn't much of a point anyway, theres no real discernible difference between say RAM running at 1333mhz and 1866mhz. In a lower end system where you need every ounce of help you can get to make the thing more powerful, but not in a higher end system (by higher end I mean, well pretty much anything modern).
August 4, 2012 7:54:37 AM

manofchalk said:
You can use them on Z77, as far as im aware the only restrictions on RAM to platform was with the X58 platform. Chances are those were the platforms out when the kit was released, so thats whats its verified.

Though I must ask why that kit? This kit is identical (except 1600Mhz instead of 1866Mhz, no performance diffrence between them though) and cheaper. Low Profile as well so it wont get in the way of anything.
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_i...


Oh, that is good news.

You should know by now how fussy i am about aesthetics :sol:  The reason for picking the Dominators is that they look nice and meaty, that and i'm pretty sure i will get better performance with that kind of speed differential. After all i don't think they charge an extra $100 just for the Heat spreaders. Plus i should see some better overclocking potential out of the Corsair Dominators.

It might even be worth looking at some 2400+ rated modules if i can find some cheap enough. But of course they must look sexy. :p 


OP has been updated with final build components. Will see if i can put together an x79 build list just for price comparison and for the hell of it. I do still have a week or so until purchase, or really until my Tax return clears. :D 
a c 105 B Homebuilt system
August 4, 2012 9:46:05 AM

You'r right, they don't charge an extra $100 for heat-spreaders (Its only a $20 difference between the kits, and that can be attributed to their frequency).

Please dont get RAM faster than 1600Mhz, or 1866Mhz at most. RAM above that speed is just completely pointless and a waste of money. RAM at those frequencies are only on paper faster, because as you increase the frequency, the timings or the voltage have to increase (Which cant be above 1.5v), so timings increase and its still the same performance.
a c 118 B Homebuilt system
August 4, 2012 10:12:03 AM

On the practical differences of RAM speed and timings, this article is a little dated as you can tell by the setups, if you want to check it out you can, but dated or not its still relevant, you can read the article in its entirety and see what they tested, or you can just skip to the bottom line:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ram-speed-tests,180...

Quote:
Our conclusion is very simple: you get the best bang for the buck if you stick to the mainstream of the memory market, which currently is still DDR2-800 or 1066, preferably at low latencies. DDR3-1066 and -1333 memory do not yet result in better performance, and so should only be considered by hardcore enthusiasts, who aim for maximum overclocking performance knowing that they will get little benefit for spending a fortune.
August 4, 2012 11:00:53 PM



Hey,


Yeah, i really couldn't afford that ram anyway lol, well not now i have decided to get a new PSU. My new selection is a bit more conservative.


I am having second thoughts about platform again, since i put together a X79 build list that actually works out cheaper, that may or may not be faster for gaming and general purpose. Hopefully i can get a fair idea on the forums here.


Thank you again guys, you have been great. :) 
August 5, 2012 1:55:50 AM

Best answer selected by spacejunk.
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