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I'm buying my first digital camera - looking for advice on..

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August 28, 2005 10:19:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Hello everyone.

I am in the market for my first digital camera. I would very much appreciate
some advice on what is a good make and model. I am not looking for anything
cheap, nor something over the top. Today at my local electronics store, the
salesman showed my this camera: The Panasonic DMC-FZ5K-S seen here
http://www.panasonic.ca/english/audiovideo/camerascamco.... I
almost bought it on the spot but then thought it might be a good idea to
check some reviews and get user opinion. My research came up with mixed
results. And quite a few of the raving reviews were clearly written by the
Panasonic marketing people... it was really sad and quite obvious. So I'm
here to get some opinions on what camera is good overall for performance and
price. My budget is about $700 CDN (to you US folks that's about $525 USD) I
really don't know too much about digital camera technologies or features,
but I plan to learn. I'm looking for something GOOD in that price range.
Here are my minimum specs:

10-12x optical zoom
5 megapixels
Motion video - decent quality
Built in flash
High quality LCD screen

The Panasonic noted above can only do 320x240 movies ... and many reviews
said the quality was bad. Yes I know, you don't buy a digital camera to
shoot movies ... but I'd still like it to be as good as possible. I have a
high resolution printer so alot of my shots will be at the higher image size
settings. Here are some things that I have been told to watch out for in
digital cameras (I don't know anything about these):

Picture "noise" when shooting high resolution images?
"Barrel" effect or something ... something to do with poor quality lenses?
Bad picture quality when shooting indoors ... either from bad flash or
unsteady operation
No autofocus or bad autofocus
Difficult to operate menus

Again, I don't know too much above the issues above, that's why I'm here ...
to find a model that has "minimal" effects of the above or none at all.

Please, I encourage as many people as possible to voice their opinion on
great cameras and if you like, your experiences with them. Not asking for an
essay or anything, even just a make and model and nothing else will be
valuable. Thanx much to everyone.

Robert

P.S. If there is a non SLR camera out there that is beyond my budget but you
really believe in it, I would be open to knowing about them too. If worth it
I would increase my budget ... just bear in mind im an amateur photographer.
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 10:19:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Robert wrote:
> Hello everyone.
>
> I am in the market for my first digital camera. I would very much appreciate
> some advice on what is a good make and model. I am not looking for anything
> cheap, nor something over the top. Today at my local electronics store, the
> salesman showed my this camera: The Panasonic DMC-FZ5K-S seen here
> http://www.panasonic.ca/english/audiovideo/camerascamco.... I
> almost bought it on the spot but then thought it might be a good idea to
> check some reviews and get user opinion. My research came up with mixed
> results. And quite a few of the raving reviews were clearly written by the
> Panasonic marketing people... it was really sad and quite obvious. So I'm
> here to get some opinions on what camera is good overall for performance and
> price. My budget is about $700 CDN (to you US folks that's about $525 USD) I
> really don't know too much about digital camera technologies or features,
> but I plan to learn. I'm looking for something GOOD in that price range.
> Here are my minimum specs:
>
> 10-12x optical zoom
> 5 megapixels
> Motion video - decent quality
> Built in flash
> High quality LCD screen
>
> The Panasonic noted above can only do 320x240 movies ... and many reviews
> said the quality was bad. Yes I know, you don't buy a digital camera to
> shoot movies ... but I'd still like it to be as good as possible. I have a
> high resolution printer so alot of my shots will be at the higher image size
> settings. Here are some things that I have been told to watch out for in
> digital cameras (I don't know anything about these):
>
> Picture "noise" when shooting high resolution images?
> "Barrel" effect or something ... something to do with poor quality lenses?
> Bad picture quality when shooting indoors ... either from bad flash or
> unsteady operation
> No autofocus or bad autofocus
> Difficult to operate menus
>
> Again, I don't know too much above the issues above, that's why I'm here ...
> to find a model that has "minimal" effects of the above or none at all.
>
> Please, I encourage as many people as possible to voice their opinion on
> great cameras and if you like, your experiences with them. Not asking for an
> essay or anything, even just a make and model and nothing else will be
> valuable. Thanx much to everyone.
>
> Robert
>
> P.S. If there is a non SLR camera out there that is beyond my budget but you
> really believe in it, I would be open to knowing about them too. If worth it
> I would increase my budget ... just bear in mind im an amateur photographer.
>
>
I have owned 4 digicams (2 Canon, 1 Pentax and a PanasoniC DMC FZ15)
The Panasonic is the best by far. The Leica, 12X Optical Zoom with Image
Stabilization is a dream come true. I love the EVF because it allows you
to handle the camera like a DSLR. I chose the 4MP over the 5MP FZ20
because they both use the same size small sensor and I was concerned
about more noise in the 5 MP images.
The newest FZ series Flagship is the 8MP FZ30. It has a larger sensor
than other FZ model, so noise should not be a serious problem.
It will be available in September. If you can afford a few more bucks
than $700 Can. This should be a hands down winner.
Nothing else is comparable at the present time.
It is reviewed in Phil Askeys site, http://www.dpreview.com
It ia real stunner......Bob Williams
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 11:26:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Robert wrote:
> Hello everyone.
>
> I am in the market for my first digital camera. I would very much
> appreciate
> some advice on what is a good make and model. I am not looking for
> anything
> cheap, nor something over the top. Today at my local electronics
> store, the
> salesman showed my this camera: The Panasonic DMC-FZ5K-S seen here
> http://www.panasonic.ca/english/audiovideo/camerascamco....
> I almost bought it on the spot but then thought it might be a good
> idea to
> check some reviews and get user opinion. My research came up with
> mixed
> results. And quite a few of the raving reviews were clearly written
> by the
> Panasonic marketing people... it was really sad and quite obvious. So
> I'm
> here to get some opinions on what camera is good overall for
> performance and
> price.

Robert,

I have a Panasonic FZ5 and my wife has its bigger brother - the Panasonic
FZ20. We have both been delighted with the cameras and the quality of the
images we get from them.

In my view, there is only one camera competing in the same price range and
that's the Canon S2 IS. Whilst the image quality isn't quite as good as
the Panasonic, it does have a better movie mode and a swivel LCD
viewfinder which might influence your decision. On the other hand it's
heavier, and uses AA batteries which may not be supplied with the camera
(so you'll have to buy AA NiMH cells and a recharger) and which are more
of a nuisance to change in the field (compared to the single LiIon battery
of the Panasonic models).

I would suggest you compare the handling of both cameras as well - one may
suit you better than the other.

Both are excellent cameras, and good value for money - you won't regret
buying either.

By the way, there is a newsgroup for this class of camera (the ZLR) at:

rec.photo.digital.zlr

where you will find many discussions about the relative merits of these
two cameras.

Cheers,
David
Related resources
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 12:44:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

> Please, I encourage as many people as possible to voice their opinion on
> great cameras and if you like, your experiences with them. Not asking for
> an
> essay or anything, even just a make and model and nothing else will be
> valuable. Thanx much to everyone.
>
> Robert
>
> P.S. If there is a non SLR camera out there that is beyond my budget but
> you
> really believe in it, I would be open to knowing about them too. If worth
> it
> I would increase my budget ... just bear in mind im an amateur
> photographer.
>
>

If you think movie mode might be important to you, the Canon S2 IS has
probably the best movie mode going right now. I was just showing a movie
from my S2 IS on my TV, and it is amazing. Actually much better than any
VHS camcorder. Ths sound is surprisingly good too. Oh, and it does take
good pictures too. ; )
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 12:47:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

David J Taylor
<david-taylor@blueyonder.co.not-this-bit.nor-this-part.uk.invalid> wrote:
: On the other hand it's heavier, and uses AA batteries which may not be
: supplied with the camera (so you'll have to buy AA NiMH cells and a
: recharger) and which are more of a nuisance to change in the field
: (compared to the single LiIon battery of the Panasonic models).

I do not dispute David's comments but for another view of battery type I
would like to comment. Cameras that take AA batteries (and in some cases
Lithium cells that fit the same battery case such as a CR-V3) have one
advantage over cameras that take a brand specific battery. AA,
rechargeable and CR-V3 batteries are much easier to find. And since they
are manufactured and sold by many different companies the competition
tends to keep the price down. A camera that takes a proprietary battery
has you over a barrel with respect to price and who you can buy from.

For example if you are using a camera that takes camera brand specific
batteries and you are on vacation, when your batteries are empty (and
assuming they are rechargeable) you have to give up shooting for the day
until you can recharge. While a AA style battery powered camera will allow
you to purchase a package of duracells (or similar) to get you by until
you can charge your primary batteries. True, these temporary batteries
will not give you the number of images as a good lithium, and won't be as
economical as a rechargeable battery(s), but you are not limited to just
the number of batteries you have in advance.

Just my take on the question.

Randy

==========
Randy Berbaum
Champaign, IL
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 1:27:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Randy Berbaum wrote:
> David J Taylor
> <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.not-this-bit.nor-this-part.uk.invalid>
> wrote:
>> On the other hand it's heavier, and uses AA batteries which may not
>> be supplied with the camera (so you'll have to buy AA NiMH cells and
>> a recharger) and which are more of a nuisance to change in the field
>> (compared to the single LiIon battery of the Panasonic models).
>
> I do not dispute David's comments but for another view of battery
> type I would like to comment. Cameras that take AA batteries (and in
> some cases Lithium cells that fit the same battery case such as a
> CR-V3) have one advantage over cameras that take a brand specific
> battery. AA, rechargeable and CR-V3 batteries are much easier to
> find. And since they are manufactured and sold by many different
> companies the competition tends to keep the price down. A camera that
> takes a proprietary battery has you over a barrel with respect to
> price and who you can buy from.
>
> For example if you are using a camera that takes camera brand specific
> batteries and you are on vacation, when your batteries are empty (and
> assuming they are rechargeable) you have to give up shooting for the
> day until you can recharge. While a AA style battery powered camera
> will allow you to purchase a package of duracells (or similar) to get
> you by until you can charge your primary batteries. True, these
> temporary batteries will not give you the number of images as a good
> lithium, and won't be as economical as a rechargeable battery(s), but
> you are not limited to just the number of batteries you have in
> advance.

Randy,

Whilst I agree with much you say, there are plenty of 3rd-party
alternatives to the manufacturer's own brand of Li-Ion batteries at quite
reasonable prices. This is certainly true of the Panasonic range where
the battery is in common across many cameras and other items.

During the period I used AA cells with earlier digital cameras, I only
once needed to buy spares on the spot. However, I would certainly
recommend taking a spare battery or two (or four or eight in the case of
AA cells!) so that you don't run out during the day. With the FZ5, I've
never needed a third battery during the day, although I did with the Nikon
5700.

What I would like to see is a limited set of standard Li-Ion batteries
which could be used across a whole range of camera brands, rather than
each manufacturer having their own shape and size. Much as we have AAA,
AA etc. cells today. Perhaps capacities of 700mAh, 1000mAh and 1500mAh.

David
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 2:37:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Robert wrote:
> Hello everyone.
>
> I am in the market for my first digital camera. I would very much
> appreciate
> some advice on what is a good make and model. I am not looking for
> anything
> cheap, nor something over the top. Today at my local electronics
> store, the
> salesman showed my this camera: The Panasonic DMC-FZ5K-S seen here
> http://www.panasonic.ca/english/audiovideo/camerascamco....
> I almost bought it on the spot but then thought it might be a good
> idea to
> check some reviews and get user opinion. My research came up with
> mixed
> results. And quite a few of the raving reviews were clearly written
> by the
> Panasonic marketing people... it was really sad and quite obvious. So
> I'm
> here to get some opinions on what camera is good overall for
> performance and
> price. My budget is about $700 CDN (to you US folks that's about $525
> USD) I
> really don't know too much about digital camera technologies or
> features,
> but I plan to learn. I'm looking for something GOOD in that price
> range.
> Here are my minimum specs:
>
> 10-12x optical zoom
> 5 megapixels
> Motion video - decent quality
> Built in flash
> High quality LCD screen
>
> The Panasonic noted above can only do 320x240 movies ... and many
> reviews
> said the quality was bad. Yes I know, you don't buy a digital camera
> to
> shoot movies ... but I'd still like it to be as good as possible. I
> have a
> high resolution printer so alot of my shots will be at the higher
> image size
> settings. Here are some things that I have been told to watch out for
> in
> digital cameras (I don't know anything about these):
>
> Picture "noise" when shooting high resolution images?
> "Barrel" effect or something ... something to do with poor quality
> lenses?
> Bad picture quality when shooting indoors ... either from bad flash or
> unsteady operation
> No autofocus or bad autofocus
> Difficult to operate menus
>
> Again, I don't know too much above the issues above, that's why I'm
> here ...
> to find a model that has "minimal" effects of the above or none at
> all.
>
> Please, I encourage as many people as possible to voice their opinion
> on
> great cameras and if you like, your experiences with them. Not asking
> for an
> essay or anything, even just a make and model and nothing else will be
> valuable. Thanx much to everyone.
>
> Robert
>
> P.S. If there is a non SLR camera out there that is beyond my budget
> but you
> really believe in it, I would be open to knowing about them too. If
> worth it
> I would increase my budget ... just bear in mind im an amateur
> photographer.

I agree with David...Canon S2 IS is excellent camera, and you should
seriousely consider it. Check out a few reviews, like at dbreview.com, then
dcresource.com etc...
S2 has movie mode in 640x480 at 30 fps and some tell it's comparable with
digicams...
Some bad stuff you wrote were somewhat present inS1 and are corrected in
S2 - like indoor shoting (S2 now has AF assist lamp), then fast focusing
etc...
Regarding batteries - when you get 2600 mAh NiMH pack, you can make way
over 500 shots with one charge, lot among them with flash. Also using AA can
be only good, since they are cheap and in an emergency you can buy
alkaline's in every shop and make some shots with them...
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 6:36:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

David J Taylor wrote:
> Randy Berbaum wrote:
>> David J Taylor
>> <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.not-this-bit.nor-this-part.uk.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>> On the other hand it's heavier, and uses AA batteries which may not
>>> be supplied with the camera (so you'll have to buy AA NiMH cells and
>>> a recharger) and which are more of a nuisance to change in the field
>>> (compared to the single LiIon battery of the Panasonic models).
>>
>> I do not dispute David's comments but for another view of battery
>> type I would like to comment. Cameras that take AA batteries (and in
>> some cases Lithium cells that fit the same battery case such as a
>> CR-V3) have one advantage over cameras that take a brand specific
>> battery. AA, rechargeable and CR-V3 batteries are much easier to
>> find. And since they are manufactured and sold by many different
>> companies the competition tends to keep the price down. A camera that
>> takes a proprietary battery has you over a barrel with respect to
>> price and who you can buy from.
>>
>> For example if you are using a camera that takes camera brand
>> specific batteries and you are on vacation, when your batteries are
>> empty (and assuming they are rechargeable) you have to give up
>> shooting for the day until you can recharge. While a AA style
>> battery powered camera will allow you to purchase a package of
>> duracells (or similar) to get you by until you can charge your
>> primary batteries. True, these temporary batteries will not give you
>> the number of images as a good lithium, and won't be as economical
>> as a rechargeable battery(s), but you are not limited to just the
>> number of batteries you have in advance.
>
> Randy,
>
> Whilst I agree with much you say, there are plenty of 3rd-party
> alternatives to the manufacturer's own brand of Li-Ion batteries at
> quite reasonable prices. This is certainly true of the Panasonic
> range where the battery is in common across many cameras and other
> items.
> During the period I used AA cells with earlier digital cameras, I only
> once needed to buy spares on the spot. However, I would certainly
> recommend taking a spare battery or two (or four or eight in the case
> of AA cells!) so that you don't run out during the day. With the
> FZ5, I've never needed a third battery during the day, although I did
> with the Nikon 5700.


That strongly depends on type of camera. On my very old Olympus C300 i did
just about 170 shots with one charge, and here i definitely had to have a
spare set with me, while this is really not needed with Canon's since they
can make over 600 shots, and without flash even more - all with one charge.
Note that NiMH have capacity of 2600 mAh, while i don't think this is the
case with Lithium, since they are put where there's no room or need to keep
camera light enough. In this case camera's are usually made to have as
little consumption as possible, so since some developing goes into this,
rest of the stuff is kept of less quality.
You're acting like Lithium doesn't go empty... all what Randy (an I)
explained is meant that ...assuming you have a set of Lithiums in a camera
for a while and you forget to recharge it (don't tell you're perfect and
can't happen to you), go to some trip and they go empty...so you're fu**ed,
roughly speaking, while with AA set, you go into nearest store, buy a pack
of Duracell's and happily continue to shoot. Number of shots made with NiMH
or Lithium doesn't really differ any...all you said is true to either of
them if you DON'T forget to recharge...
But, come on, buying a camera shouldn't in any way depend on type of
batteries used, but rather on other functions, quality etc...
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 6:36:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

SleeperMan wrote:
[]
> That strongly depends on type of camera. On my very old Olympus C300
> i did just about 170 shots with one charge, and here i definitely had
> to have a spare set with me, while this is really not needed with
> Canon's since they can make over 600 shots, and without flash even
> more - all with one charge. Note that NiMH have capacity of 2600 mAh,
> while i don't think this is the case with Lithium, since they are put
> where there's no room or need to keep camera light enough. In this
> case camera's are usually made to have as little consumption as
> possible, so since some developing goes into this, rest of the stuff
> is kept of less quality.

Yes, the capacity is different, but so is the voltage. NiMH 2600mAh at
4.8V versus (whatever) at 7.2V. You only need 2/3 of the capacity in
Li-Ion for the same energy storage. Which has the best energy to weight
ratio right now?

> You're acting like Lithium doesn't go empty... all what Randy (an I)
> explained is meant that ...assuming you have a set of Lithiums in a
> camera for a while and you forget to recharge it (don't tell you're
> perfect and can't happen to you), go to some trip and they go
> empty...so you're fu**ed, roughly speaking, while with AA set, you go
> into nearest store, buy a pack of Duracell's and happily continue to
> shoot. Number of shots made with NiMH or Lithium doesn't really
> differ any...all you said is true to either of them if you DON'T
> forget to recharge...

Well, that's not the way I work in the field. At the end of each day's
shooting I recharge both empty and partially depleted cells so I start the
next day with fully charged cells. I've tended to do that more
consistently with the single part Li-ion batteries than with groups of
four AA cells.

> But, come on, buying a camera shouldn't in any way depend on type of
> batteries used, but rather on other functions, quality etc...

Given two exactly equal cameras, I agree, but inevitably cameras aren't
equal so one's personal preferences on power sources will come into the
buying decision. There's no single right answer, of course.

David
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 6:36:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

SleeperMan wrote:
> You're acting like Lithium doesn't go empty... all what Randy (an I)
> explained is meant that ...assuming you have a set of Lithiums in a
> camera for a while and you forget to recharge it (don't tell you're
> perfect and can't happen to you), go to some trip and they go
> empty...so you're fu**ed, roughly speaking, while with AA set, you
> go
> into nearest store, buy a pack of Duracell's and happily continue to
> shoot. Number of shots made with NiMH or Lithium doesn't really
> differ any...all you said is true to either of them if you DON'T
> forget to recharge... But, come on, buying a camera shouldn't in any
> way depend on type of
> batteries used, but rather on other functions, quality etc...

I agree with that last, and suggest that the way the world works is
going to drive you to a camera with proprietary energy cells.

Let me also mention a circumstance that opened my eyes, so to speak: I
ran my CP5700's two Nikon-made cells down to nothing, and continued
with a good supply of AAs.

At night, tired and ready to sleep, plugged in the Nikon charger, and
blinked: it was going to take two or more hours to charge one cell.
What would I do, set the alarm and wake up to plug in the second
battery?

Next time out I had two chargers and a DC adapter/charger. One battery
charged on the trip to the hotel and overnight while I slept through
the two charges in-room. Three full in the morning, and lasted all
day.

I sprung for the two-unit charger from Canon, and discovered it
charges one and then the other. Eliminates the need to wake up and
change batteries, but extends the length of time necessary to arrive
at two-full-charged units.

Just another bit of grist for the mill.

--
Frank ess
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 6:44:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Bob Williams wrote:
> Robert wrote:
>> Hello everyone.
>>
>> I am in the market for my first digital camera. I would very much
>> appreciate some advice on what is a good make and model. I am not looking
>> for
>> anything cheap, nor something over the top. Today at my local electronics
>> store, the salesman showed my this camera: The Panasonic DMC-FZ5K-S seen
>> here
>> http://www.panasonic.ca/english/audiovideo/camerascamco....
>> I almost bought it on the spot but then thought it might be a good
>> idea to check some reviews and get user opinion. My research came up with
>> mixed results. And quite a few of the raving reviews were clearly written
>> by the Panasonic marketing people... it was really sad and quite obvious.
>> So I'm here to get some opinions on what camera is good overall for
>> performance and price. My budget is about $700 CDN (to you US folks
>> that's about
>> $525 USD) I really don't know too much about digital camera technologies
>> or
>> features, but I plan to learn. I'm looking for something GOOD in that
>> price
>> range. Here are my minimum specs:
>>
>> 10-12x optical zoom
>> 5 megapixels
>> Motion video - decent quality
>> Built in flash
>> High quality LCD screen
>>
>> The Panasonic noted above can only do 320x240 movies ... and many
>> reviews said the quality was bad. Yes I know, you don't buy a digital
>> camera
>> to shoot movies ... but I'd still like it to be as good as possible. I
>> have a high resolution printer so alot of my shots will be at the higher
>> image size settings. Here are some things that I have been told to watch
>> out
>> for in digital cameras (I don't know anything about these):
>>
>> Picture "noise" when shooting high resolution images?
>> "Barrel" effect or something ... something to do with poor quality
>> lenses? Bad picture quality when shooting indoors ... either from bad
>> flash
>> or unsteady operation
>> No autofocus or bad autofocus
>> Difficult to operate menus
>>
>> Again, I don't know too much above the issues above, that's why I'm
>> here ... to find a model that has "minimal" effects of the above or none
>> at
>> all. Please, I encourage as many people as possible to voice their
>> opinion on great cameras and if you like, your experiences with them. Not
>> asking for an essay or anything, even just a make and model and nothing
>> else will
>> be valuable. Thanx much to everyone.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> P.S. If there is a non SLR camera out there that is beyond my budget
>> but you really believe in it, I would be open to knowing about them too.
>> If
>> worth it I would increase my budget ... just bear in mind im an amateur
>> photographer.
> I have owned 4 digicams (2 Canon, 1 Pentax and a PanasoniC DMC FZ15)
> The Panasonic is the best by far. The Leica, 12X Optical Zoom with
> Image Stabilization is a dream come true. I love the EVF because it
> allows you to handle the camera like a DSLR.

All of above is true for S2 also - IS, 12x zoom and EVF.

I chose the 4MP over the
> 5MP FZ20 because they both use the same size small sensor and I was
> concerned about more noise in the 5 MP images.

I compared my old S1 (3M) with new S2 (5M) and noise is not by a bit more
present on new S2, so here is not to be concerned anout.

> The newest FZ series Flagship is the 8MP FZ30. It has a larger sensor
> than other FZ model, so noise should not be a serious problem.
> It will be available in September. If you can afford a few more bucks
> than $700 Can. This should be a hands down winner.
> Nothing else is comparable at the present time.
> It is reviewed in Phil Askeys site, http://www.dpreview.com
> It ia real stunner......Bob Williams

Price here is deciding factor...since if it goes any higher, than buying a
SLR would be a real thing to consider. Note that for that money you can get
a decent SLR, although without flash, but note that flash in compact is
anyway only half usable, so if having even more quality sensor (and camera),
it's a nuisance to have external anyway.
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 6:54:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 06:19:16 GMT, Robert <rbutcher.nospam@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Here are my minimum specs:
>
> 10-12x optical zoom
> 5 megapixels
> Motion video - decent quality
> Built in flash
> High quality LCD screen

I went through the same process that you are going through a few months
ago. The two cameras I looked at were the FZ5 and the Canon S2IS.
They're both very good, but have slightly different pluses and minuses:

FZ5: + Small, light, fast focus, fast burst mode (for consumer cameras)
- Low res movie mode

S2IS: + high-res movies, tilt/swivel LCD
- Heavier, somewhat slower focusing and burst mode.

Which one is best depends on what you care more about. I didn't care
about movie mode, and did care about weight, so that pushed me into the
FZ5 camp; I've been very happy with it. There are other cameras in this
general class ($500 superzoom), but these two are (for now) the best of
the bunch.

The list prices are the same, though for the Canon you'll want to budget
for some decent NiMH AA batteries and a charger; the Panasonic comes
with a Li rechargeable and a charger. For both cameras, you'll also need
to budget for more memory; they both come with tiny cards, which you'll
definitely want to replace by something usefully large. I'd recommend a
512 MB card for starters, which will hold 200ish high-resolution JPGs on
either camera. Get more memory as needed.

-dms
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 7:47:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 14:54:28 GMT, Daniel Silevitch wrote:

> The list prices are the same, though for the Canon you'll want to
> budget for some decent NiMH AA batteries and a charger; the
> Panasonic comes with a Li rechargeable and a charger.

You can get decent NiMH AA batteries and a charger for very little
cost. No matter which type of battery is used, many or most people
would get at least one backup battery (or set). In that case, for
the cost of a second Panasonic Li battery you could probably buy the
NiMH charger and 4 or more sets of AA batteries.

Each battery type has advantages and disadvantages. Li-ion is
lighter and more convenient. But it's initially more expensive than
NiMH, and ultimate far more expensive if the camera is used for many
years, since Li-ion batteries deteriorate whether used or not, and
so will probably have to be replaced far sooner that NiMH. This
adds up, especially if backup batteries are used. NiMH doesn't
retain its charge nearly as well, so you can't expect the batteries
to perform well if they haven't been charged in a month or more.
But this is a trivial problem if "overnight" chargers are avoided.
There are many good chargers available that can charge a set of
batteries in an hour or less, several in as little as 15 minutes.
And when several years later their capacity is reduced and you might
want to replace them, the old NiMH AAs will continue to work very
well in many other types of devices, such as radios, CD and MP3
players, etc.
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 11:28:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

David J Taylor wrote:
> SleeperMan wrote:
> []
>> That strongly depends on type of camera. On my very old Olympus C300
>> i did just about 170 shots with one charge, and here i definitely had
>> to have a spare set with me, while this is really not needed with
>> Canon's since they can make over 600 shots, and without flash even
>> more - all with one charge. Note that NiMH have capacity of 2600 mAh,
>> while i don't think this is the case with Lithium, since they are put
>> where there's no room or need to keep camera light enough. In this
>> case camera's are usually made to have as little consumption as
>> possible, so since some developing goes into this, rest of the stuff
>> is kept of less quality.
>
> Yes, the capacity is different, but so is the voltage. NiMH 2600mAh
> at 4.8V versus (whatever) at 7.2V. You only need 2/3 of the capacity in
> Li-Ion for the same energy storage. Which has the best energy to
> weight ratio right now?

I didn't say nothing about weight...sure, if you want light camera, Li is
the way to go...

>
>> You're acting like Lithium doesn't go empty... all what Randy (an I)
>> explained is meant that ...assuming you have a set of Lithiums in a
>> camera for a while and you forget to recharge it (don't tell you're
>> perfect and can't happen to you), go to some trip and they go
>> empty...so you're fu**ed, roughly speaking, while with AA set, you go
>> into nearest store, buy a pack of Duracell's and happily continue to
>> shoot. Number of shots made with NiMH or Lithium doesn't really
>> differ any...all you said is true to either of them if you DON'T
>> forget to recharge...
>
> Well, that's not the way I work in the field. At the end of each
> day's shooting I recharge both empty and partially depleted cells so
> I start the next day with fully charged cells. I've tended to do
> that more consistently with the single part Li-ion batteries than
> with groups of four AA cells.

well, if you use a camera daily for work ,that's different. But many people
here have it for hobby and are tend to forget to recharge...

>
>> But, come on, buying a camera shouldn't in any way depend on type of
>> batteries used, but rather on other functions, quality etc...
>
> Given two exactly equal cameras, I agree, but inevitably cameras
> aren't equal so one's personal preferences on power sources will come
> into the buying decision. There's no single right answer, of course.
>
> David
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 11:31:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Psych-O-Delic Voodoo Thunder Pig wrote:
>> Please, I encourage as many people as possible to voice their
>> opinion on great cameras and if you like, your experiences with
>> them. Not asking for an
>> essay or anything, even just a make and model and nothing else will
>> be valuable. Thanx much to everyone.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> P.S. If there is a non SLR camera out there that is beyond my budget
>> but you
>> really believe in it, I would be open to knowing about them too. If
>> worth it
>> I would increase my budget ... just bear in mind im an amateur
>> photographer.
>>
>>
>
> If you think movie mode might be important to you, the Canon S2 IS has
> probably the best movie mode going right now. I was just showing a
> movie from my S2 IS on my TV, and it is amazing. Actually much
> better than any VHS camcorder. Ths sound is surprisingly good too. Oh,
> and it does take good pictures too. ; )

S2 makes better movies than any VHS camera...that has been said in many
reviews, and is definitely true. Since Digital camera resolution isn't much
bigger (752x ??? somewhere here), movie is quite comparable or even better
than many cheap digicams, especially now with stereo hi quality sound.
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 1:40:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 15:47:56 -0400, ASAAR <caught@22.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 14:54:28 GMT, Daniel Silevitch wrote:
>
>> The list prices are the same, though for the Canon you'll want to
>> budget for some decent NiMH AA batteries and a charger; the
>> Panasonic comes with a Li rechargeable and a charger.
>
> You can get decent NiMH AA batteries and a charger for very little
> cost. No matter which type of battery is used, many or most people
> would get at least one backup battery (or set). In that case, for
> the cost of a second Panasonic Li battery you could probably buy the
> NiMH charger and 4 or more sets of AA batteries.

Sure. When I said 'budget', I should have mentioned that the amount of
money involved is pretty small, especially compared to the multi-hundred
dollar camera itself. It is, however, a necessary expense since alkaline
batteries are seriously suboptimal (except as a last resort).

Also note that third party Li batteries can be purchased for
signficantly less money than what Panasonic (or any other camera make)
charges.

As you say below, there are pluses and minuses to both technologies.
Now, if someone could only make a hydrogen fuel cell battery instead...

-dms

> Each battery type has advantages and disadvantages. Li-ion is
> lighter and more convenient. But it's initially more expensive than
> NiMH, and ultimate far more expensive if the camera is used for many
> years, since Li-ion batteries deteriorate whether used or not, and
> so will probably have to be replaced far sooner that NiMH. This
> adds up, especially if backup batteries are used. NiMH doesn't
> retain its charge nearly as well, so you can't expect the batteries
> to perform well if they haven't been charged in a month or more.
> But this is a trivial problem if "overnight" chargers are avoided.
> There are many good chargers available that can charge a set of
> batteries in an hour or less, several in as little as 15 minutes.
> And when several years later their capacity is reduced and you might
> want to replace them, the old NiMH AAs will continue to work very
> well in many other types of devices, such as radios, CD and MP3
> players, etc.
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 1:58:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Frank ess wrote:
> SleeperMan wrote:
>> You're acting like Lithium doesn't go empty... all what Randy (an I)
>> explained is meant that ...assuming you have a set of Lithiums in a
>> camera for a while and you forget to recharge it (don't tell you're
>> perfect and can't happen to you), go to some trip and they go
>> empty...so you're fu**ed, roughly speaking, while with AA set, you
>> go
>> into nearest store, buy a pack of Duracell's and happily continue to
>> shoot. Number of shots made with NiMH or Lithium doesn't really
>> differ any...all you said is true to either of them if you DON'T
>> forget to recharge... But, come on, buying a camera shouldn't in any
>> way depend on type of
>> batteries used, but rather on other functions, quality etc...
>
> I agree with that last, and suggest that the way the world works is
> going to drive you to a camera with proprietary energy cells.
>
> Let me also mention a circumstance that opened my eyes, so to speak: I
> ran my CP5700's two Nikon-made cells down to nothing, and continued
> with a good supply of AAs.
>
> At night, tired and ready to sleep, plugged in the Nikon charger, and
> blinked: it was going to take two or more hours to charge one cell.
> What would I do, set the alarm and wake up to plug in the second
> battery?
>
> Next time out I had two chargers and a DC adapter/charger. One battery
> charged on the trip to the hotel and overnight while I slept through
> the two charges in-room. Three full in the morning, and lasted all
> day.
>
> I sprung for the two-unit charger from Canon, and discovered it
> charges one and then the other. Eliminates the need to wake up and
> change batteries, but extends the length of time necessary to arrive
> at two-full-charged units.
>
> Just another bit of grist for the mill.

Hm...you're confusing two important facts---two types mean two completely
different charging protocols.
Lithium cells are VERY sensitive to over and undercharging...in fact, one
SINGLE over or undercharge kills them beyond repair. That's why EVERY
lithium cell has built-in charger and that mean quality precise charger.
While NiMH aren't so sensitive and so there are many different (read
non-quality) chargers out there. It is very important that you buy a QUALITY
charger, not one of those cheap time-based ones. They only count time and
then reduce charging current. Those computer-controlled ones charge each
cell individually (not in pairs) and they observe temperature and voltage
when it's time to cut off. You must always buy such charger and always one
who can take as many cells as they are in your camera. Having two-slot
charger while the camera takes 4 cells is stupid. As an exapmle GP's
PowerBank Smart 2 is one hour smart charger, it takes 60 minutes tops to
charge 4 AA cells, has temp and voltage protection and can compete with any
lithium one. It has a possibility to charge in a car from 12 volts so i
really don't see any fuzz here. Also i wouldn't exactly reccomend to buy
camera brand one, since they are camera experts, not charger ones. Get
charger from a factory who works batteries, as they know what they are
doing. Also don't buy some no-name cells, as they are tend to die sooner
(but note that this is the same when buying some no-name lithium
replacements).
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 1:58:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

SleeperMan wrote:
> Frank ess wrote:
>> SleeperMan wrote:
>>> You're acting like Lithium doesn't go empty... all what Randy (an
>>> I)
>>> explained is meant that ...assuming you have a set of Lithiums in
>>> a
>>> camera for a while and you forget to recharge it (don't tell
>>> you're
>>> perfect and can't happen to you), go to some trip and they go
>>> empty...so you're fu**ed, roughly speaking, while with AA set, you
>>> go
>>> into nearest store, buy a pack of Duracell's and happily continue
>>> to
>>> shoot. Number of shots made with NiMH or Lithium doesn't really
>>> differ any...all you said is true to either of them if you DON'T
>>> forget to recharge... But, come on, buying a camera shouldn't in
>>> any
>>> way depend on type of
>>> batteries used, but rather on other functions, quality etc...
>>
>> I agree with that last, and suggest that the way the world works is
>> going to drive you to a camera with proprietary energy cells.
>>
>> Let me also mention a circumstance that opened my eyes, so to
>> speak:
>> I ran my CP5700's two Nikon-made cells down to nothing, and
>> continued
>> with a good supply of AAs.
>>
>> At night, tired and ready to sleep, plugged in the Nikon charger,
>> and
>> blinked: it was going to take two or more hours to charge one cell.
>> What would I do, set the alarm and wake up to plug in the second
>> battery?
>>
>> Next time out I had two chargers and a DC adapter/charger. One
>> battery charged on the trip to the hotel and overnight while I
>> slept
>> through the two charges in-room. Three full in the morning, and
>> lasted all day.
>>
>> I sprung for the two-unit charger from Canon, and discovered it
>> charges one and then the other. Eliminates the need to wake up and
>> change batteries, but extends the length of time necessary to
>> arrive
>> at two-full-charged units.
>>
>> Just another bit of grist for the mill.
>
> Hm...you're confusing two important facts---two types mean two
> completely different charging protocols.

Hm...I guess I missed completely the question that resulted in this
answer:


> Lithium cells are VERY sensitive to over and undercharging...in
> fact,
> one SINGLE over or undercharge kills them beyond repair. That's why
> EVERY lithium cell has built-in charger and that mean quality
> precise
> charger. While NiMH aren't so sensitive and so there are many
> different (read non-quality) chargers out there. It is very
> important that you buy a QUALITY charger, not one of those cheap
> time-based ones. They only count time and then reduce charging
> current. Those computer-controlled ones charge each cell
> individually
> (not in pairs) and they observe temperature and voltage when it's
> time to cut off. You must always buy such charger and always one who
> can take as many cells as they are in your camera. Having two-slot
> charger while the camera takes 4 cells is stupid. As an exapmle GP's
> PowerBank Smart 2 is one hour smart charger, it takes 60 minutes
> tops
> to charge 4 AA cells, has temp and voltage protection and can
> compete
> with any lithium one. It has a possibility to charge in a car from
> 12
> volts so i really don't see any fuzz here. Also i wouldn't exactly
> reccomend to buy camera brand one, since they are camera experts,
> not
> charger ones. Get charger from a factory who works batteries, as
> they
> know what they are doing. Also don't buy some no-name cells, as they
> are tend to die sooner (but note that this is the same when buying
> some no-name lithium replacements).

Hm...I guess it's important though, or you wouldn't have unleashed
such a barrage of keystrokes, Ne?

--
Frank ess
"In this universe there are things that
just don't yield to thinking
—plain or fancy—
Dude".
—J. Spicoli, PolyPartyPerson
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 2:20:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

SleeperMan wrote:
[]
> Hm...you're confusing two important facts---two types mean two
> completely different charging protocols.
> Lithium cells are VERY sensitive to over and undercharging...in fact,
> one SINGLE over or undercharge kills them beyond repair.

Do you have some references for this? I've been in the habit of simply
topping up cells when needed, although I have usually let the charge
complete (according to when the charger witched itself off, not timed
chargers). Are you saying that a partial recharge will kill the cells
beyond repair?

David
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 2:53:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Frank ess wrote:
> SleeperMan wrote:
>> Frank ess wrote:
>>> SleeperMan wrote:
>>>> You're acting like Lithium doesn't go empty... all what Randy (an
>>>> I)
>>>> explained is meant that ...assuming you have a set of Lithiums in
>>>> a
>>>> camera for a while and you forget to recharge it (don't tell
>>>> you're
>>>> perfect and can't happen to you), go to some trip and they go
>>>> empty...so you're fu**ed, roughly speaking, while with AA set, you
>>>> go
>>>> into nearest store, buy a pack of Duracell's and happily continue
>>>> to
>>>> shoot. Number of shots made with NiMH or Lithium doesn't really
>>>> differ any...all you said is true to either of them if you DON'T
>>>> forget to recharge... But, come on, buying a camera shouldn't in
>>>> any
>>>> way depend on type of
>>>> batteries used, but rather on other functions, quality etc...
>>>
>>> I agree with that last, and suggest that the way the world works is
>>> going to drive you to a camera with proprietary energy cells.
>>>
>>> Let me also mention a circumstance that opened my eyes, so to
>>> speak:
>>> I ran my CP5700's two Nikon-made cells down to nothing, and
>>> continued
>>> with a good supply of AAs.
>>>
>>> At night, tired and ready to sleep, plugged in the Nikon charger,
>>> and
>>> blinked: it was going to take two or more hours to charge one cell.
>>> What would I do, set the alarm and wake up to plug in the second
>>> battery?
>>>
>>> Next time out I had two chargers and a DC adapter/charger. One
>>> battery charged on the trip to the hotel and overnight while I
>>> slept
>>> through the two charges in-room. Three full in the morning, and
>>> lasted all day.
>>>
>>> I sprung for the two-unit charger from Canon, and discovered it
>>> charges one and then the other. Eliminates the need to wake up and
>>> change batteries, but extends the length of time necessary to
>>> arrive
>>> at two-full-charged units.
>>>
>>> Just another bit of grist for the mill.
>>
>> Hm...you're confusing two important facts---two types mean two
>> completely different charging protocols.
>
> Hm...I guess I missed completely the question that resulted in this
> answer:
>
>
>> Lithium cells are VERY sensitive to over and undercharging...in
>> fact,
>> one SINGLE over or undercharge kills them beyond repair. That's why
>> EVERY lithium cell has built-in charger and that mean quality
>> precise
>> charger. While NiMH aren't so sensitive and so there are many
>> different (read non-quality) chargers out there. It is very
>> important that you buy a QUALITY charger, not one of those cheap
>> time-based ones. They only count time and then reduce charging
>> current. Those computer-controlled ones charge each cell
>> individually
>> (not in pairs) and they observe temperature and voltage when it's
>> time to cut off. You must always buy such charger and always one who
>> can take as many cells as they are in your camera. Having two-slot
>> charger while the camera takes 4 cells is stupid. As an exapmle GP's
>> PowerBank Smart 2 is one hour smart charger, it takes 60 minutes
>> tops
>> to charge 4 AA cells, has temp and voltage protection and can
>> compete
>> with any lithium one. It has a possibility to charge in a car from
>> 12
>> volts so i really don't see any fuzz here. Also i wouldn't exactly
>> reccomend to buy camera brand one, since they are camera experts,
>> not
>> charger ones. Get charger from a factory who works batteries, as
>> they
>> know what they are doing. Also don't buy some no-name cells, as they
>> are tend to die sooner (but note that this is the same when buying
>> some no-name lithium replacements).
>
> Hm...I guess it's important though, or you wouldn't have unleashed
> such a barrage of keystrokes, Ne?

ja...res...
it is important, since this is among most often "downsides" mentioned
(wrongly, though) regarding AA's...since people don't know this difference.
Sure, it's the simplest to buy some cheap charger packed with 4 cells and
you think you just won gold medal...
August 29, 2005 2:08:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Thank you all for your replies. Your information was very helpful

Robert
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 2:46:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <slrndh4br0.gmj.dmsilev@bardeen.local>, dmsilev@uchicago.edu
says...

AA vs lithium....

> As you say below, there are pluses and minuses to both technologies.
> Now, if someone could only make a hydrogen fuel cell battery instead...
>
with Li-ion don't forget the bag of proprietary chargers you need to take
with you on a trip and finding enough AC power points in the room (not a
problem in the USA though). With AA, you can just take one charger, but
then spend the night changing batteries in the single charger. I mainly
see the minuses of both technologies when travelling.

(wife, 2 bicycles, 350D, powershot, GPS, PDA, 2 UHF radios, 2 cellphones,
2 headlights, 2 tailights etc.)

Bruce G
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 2:47:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:46:59 +1000, Bruce Graham <jbgraham@nowhere.com.au> wrote:
> In article <slrndh4br0.gmj.dmsilev@bardeen.local>, dmsilev@uchicago.edu
> says...
>
> AA vs lithium....
>
>> As you say below, there are pluses and minuses to both technologies.
>> Now, if someone could only make a hydrogen fuel cell battery instead...
>>
> with Li-ion don't forget the bag of proprietary chargers you need to take
> with you on a trip and finding enough AC power points in the room (not a
> problem in the USA though). With AA, you can just take one charger, but
> then spend the night changing batteries in the single charger. I mainly
> see the minuses of both technologies when travelling.
>
> (wife, 2 bicycles, 350D, powershot, GPS, PDA, 2 UHF radios, 2 cellphones,
^^^^
> 2 headlights, 2 tailights etc.)

Does your wife take AAs or Li?

Sorry, couldn't resist.
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 2:47:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Bruce Graham wrote:
[]
> with Li-ion don't forget the bag of proprietary chargers you need to
> take with you on a trip and finding enough AC power points in the
> room (not a problem in the USA though). With AA, you can just take
> one charger, but then spend the night changing batteries in the
> single charger. I mainly see the minuses of both technologies when
> travelling.
>
> (wife, 2 bicycles, 350D, powershot, GPS, PDA, 2 UHF radios, 2
> cellphones, 2 headlights, 2 tailights etc.)

All the more reason a consumer group should be calling for manufacturers
to support a range of standard Li-ion batteries in the same way as we have
AAA & AA cells! I'm disappointed no-one in the USA (surely the obvious
place to start such a campaign) hasn't taken this up.
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 2:47:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 02:08:48 GMT, Daniel Silevitch wrote:

> Does your wife take AAs or Li?
>
> Sorry, couldn't resist.

Li. Only genuine Stepford Li-Ion PerformaCells provide the
necessary energy density, and they're non-user replaceable. But as
with cameras that's not a problem, as most owners choose to upgrade
to the latest model rather than deal with sending the old model in
for repairs, bug fixes, firmware upgrades as well as filter and
battery replacements.
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 2:47:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

David J Taylor
<david-taylor@blueyonder.co.not-this-bit.nor-this-part.uk.invalid> wrote:

: All the more reason a consumer group should be calling for manufacturers
: to support a range of standard Li-ion batteries in the same way as we have
: AAA & AA cells! I'm disappointed no-one in the USA (surely the obvious
: place to start such a campaign) hasn't taken this up.

I agree that standardization of many things (not just batteries) would be
good for us consumers. But many large manufacturers seem to like the idea
of creating consumer goods with non-standard consumable components so that
we are forced to purchase from them. Among the most consistant in this is
companies like Sony. I used to like some of their products but each new
product has to have something that has to be replaced from time to time
(like batteries) that are only available from them. And even worse not
only can't you get the replacement batteries for many of their devices,
but you can't get an external charger for their rechargeables so your
device is tied to a power source every time you run out of battery charge.
:(  And unfortunately this idea is becoming popular with many other
manufacturers.

So while I agree that such standardization between manufacturers would be
a big plus, the trend seems to be in the opposite direction. But one way
that we (as consumers) could possibly influence a reversal of this trend
is to avoid (when possible) purchasing any product that requires
consumable parts (batteries, memory cards, etc) that are not widely
available from many different sources. If sales fall off attributable to
this issue it may put pressure on them to come up with a limited number of
standards across manufacturer lines.

JMHO

Randy

==========
Randy Berbaum
Champaign, IL
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 7:13:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <slrndh4rhg.gnr.dmsilev@bardeen.local>, dmsilev@uchicago.edu
says...
> On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:46:59 +1000, Bruce Graham <jbgraham@nowhere.com.au> wrote:
> > In article <slrndh4br0.gmj.dmsilev@bardeen.local>, dmsilev@uchicago.edu
> > says...
> >
> > AA vs lithium....
> >
> >> As you say below, there are pluses and minuses to both technologies.
> >> Now, if someone could only make a hydrogen fuel cell battery instead...
> >>
> > with Li-ion don't forget the bag of proprietary chargers you need to take
> > with you on a trip and finding enough AC power points in the room (not a
> > problem in the USA though). With AA, you can just take one charger, but
> > then spend the night changing batteries in the single charger. I mainly
> > see the minuses of both technologies when travelling.
> >
> > (wife, 2 bicycles, 350D, powershot, GPS, PDA, 2 UHF radios, 2 cellphones,
> ^^^^
> > 2 headlights, 2 tailights etc.)
>
> Does your wife take AAs or Li?
>
> Sorry, couldn't resist.
>
very high drain and I get to carry the charger.
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 1:36:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

David J Taylor wrote:
> SleeperMan wrote:
> []
>> Hm...you're confusing two important facts---two types mean two
>> completely different charging protocols.
>> Lithium cells are VERY sensitive to over and undercharging...in fact,
>> one SINGLE over or undercharge kills them beyond repair.
>
> Do you have some references for this? I've been in the habit of
> simply topping up cells when needed, although I have usually let the
> charge complete (according to when the charger witched itself off,
> not timed chargers). Are you saying that a partial recharge will
> kill the cells beyond repair?
>
> David

No, of course not. I just said that all lithium cells have electronics
already in the cell, built-in. So, topping up won't hurt it, since that
buil-tin electronics will cut off when full. It's just i've heard that in
Lithium case topping up means the same as full charging, so it counts as one
charging cycle. Not sure if it's true, though. I can't exactly give you a
link now, since i've read all this in Elektor Electronics magazine, but i
guess i could find it, scan it and post it on my web page, if you really
want to read it. Just reply here if you want it...
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 2:24:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

SleeperMan wrote:
> David J Taylor wrote:
>> SleeperMan wrote:
>> []
>>> Hm...you're confusing two important facts---two types mean two
>>> completely different charging protocols.
>>> Lithium cells are VERY sensitive to over and undercharging...in
>>> fact, one SINGLE over or undercharge kills them beyond repair.
>>
>> Do you have some references for this? I've been in the habit of
>> simply topping up cells when needed, although I have usually let the
>> charge complete (according to when the charger witched itself off,
>> not timed chargers). Are you saying that a partial recharge will
>> kill the cells beyond repair?
>>
>> David
>
> No, of course not. I just said that all lithium cells have electronics
> already in the cell, built-in. So, topping up won't hurt it, since
> that buil-tin electronics will cut off when full. It's just i've
> heard that in Lithium case topping up means the same as full
> charging, so it counts as one charging cycle. Not sure if it's true,
> though. I can't exactly give you a link now, since i've read all this
> in Elektor Electronics magazine, but i guess i could find it, scan it
> and post it on my web page, if you really want to read it. Just reply
> here if you want it...

That's fine. You're saying that internally lithium ion is sensitive, but
not when packaged for the end user, if I understand correctly. With all
respect to Elektor, I was looking for an authoritative Internet site....

David
August 30, 2005 7:38:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Robert wrote:
> Here are my minimum specs:
>
> 10-12x optical zoom
> 5 megapixels
> Motion video - decent quality
> Built in flash
> High quality LCD screen
>
> Robert

Robert,

Your zoom and video requirements rule out all but a few cameras.
That's probably a good thing, as it makes your choice easier.

One thing to remember about video - resolution is but half of the
story. You also need a high frame rate for pleasing video. Go for VGA
resolution (640x480) and 30 frames per second. Some cameras will have
VGA resolution, but a slower frame rate of 15 or 20 FPS. This will
manifest as jerky motion in the resulting video.

I recently searched for and bought a camera, starting with requirements
similar to your own. For your requirements, the Canon S2-IS seems like
a custom fit. It meets all your listed requirements, plus has the
added benefits of image stabilization, AA battery power, and stereo
sound. And, you can use the zoom while taking a movie - this is often
disabled on other cameras. The S2-IS can probably be had for less than
$400 - shop around.

I didn't buy the S2-IS, instead opting for it's predecessor, the
S1-IS. The MAIN differences are 3 MP vs 5 MP (trivial to me, only 29%
increase in print outside dimensions for the same dpi), compact flash
vs SD cards, and 1.5" vs 1.8" back-panel LCD. I actually prefer
compact flash, as larger and faster cards are available for less money.
Plus, if I someday get a digital SLR, it will probably use compact
flash as well. The small difference in LCD size was a don't-care,
since everything on the LCD is also viewable in the eye-level
viewfinder (and easier to see there anyway). And, being the
"obsolete" model, the S1 is very inexpensive now. I picked mine up
on special last month at Costco.com for $229 plus shipping, and that
included Costco's lifetime money-back guarantee.

Martin
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 11:18:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

David J Taylor wrote:
> SleeperMan wrote:
>> David J Taylor wrote:
>>> SleeperMan wrote:
>>> []
>>>> Hm...you're confusing two important facts---two types mean two
>>>> completely different charging protocols.
>>>> Lithium cells are VERY sensitive to over and undercharging...in
>>>> fact, one SINGLE over or undercharge kills them beyond repair.
>>>
>>> Do you have some references for this? I've been in the habit of
>>> simply topping up cells when needed, although I have usually let the
>>> charge complete (according to when the charger witched itself off,
>>> not timed chargers). Are you saying that a partial recharge will
>>> kill the cells beyond repair?
>>>
>>> David
>>
>> No, of course not. I just said that all lithium cells have
>> electronics already in the cell, built-in. So, topping up won't hurt
>> it, since that buil-tin electronics will cut off when full. It's
>> just i've heard that in Lithium case topping up means the same as
>> full charging, so it counts as one charging cycle. Not sure if it's
>> true, though. I can't exactly give you a link now, since i've read
>> all this in Elektor Electronics magazine, but i guess i could find
>> it, scan it and post it on my web page, if you really want to read
>> it. Just reply here if you want it...
>
> That's fine. You're saying that internally lithium ion is sensitive,
> but not when packaged for the end user, if I understand correctly.

Exactly.

> With all respect to Elektor, I was looking for an authoritative
> Internet site....
> David

Hm...i bet there is such site. It's just a matter of finding it...
September 2, 2005 11:57:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Robert, what did you decide to buy?
!