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Gray or USA?

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Anonymous
August 30, 2005 6:20:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Hi All
What do you guys buy, gray or USA? Obviously this is a question for
Americans but I wish to know what is the plus and minus of buying gray
market cameras and lenses? I know the warranty is less on gray, but how
much of a warranty do you need on a lens? Or do the modern auto focus
lens need their share of service? What say you all?
Paul

More about : gray usa

Anonymous
August 30, 2005 6:20:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:20:05 -0400, Paul Schilter
<paulschilter@nospamcomcast.net> wrote:

>Hi All
> What do you guys buy, gray or USA? Obviously this is a question for
>Americans but I wish to know what is the plus and minus of buying gray
>market cameras and lenses? I know the warranty is less on gray, but how
>much of a warranty do you need on a lens? Or do the modern auto focus
>lens need their share of service? What say you all?

USA. The saving at least on Gray market Canon L's at B&H isn't worth
the warranty hassle if I need it to be calibrated.


******************************************************

"I have been a witness, and these pictures are
my testimony. The events I have recorded should
not be forgotten and must not be repeated."

-James Nachtwey-
http://www.jamesnachtwey.com/
August 30, 2005 6:20:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:20:05 -0400, Paul Schilter
<paulschilter@nospamcomcast.net> wrote:

>Hi All
> What do you guys buy, gray or USA? Obviously this is a question for
>Americans but I wish to know what is the plus and minus of buying gray
>market cameras and lenses? I know the warranty is less on gray, but how
>much of a warranty do you need on a lens? Or do the modern auto focus
>lens need their share of service? What say you all?
>Paul


Recently I read on some photo site that the difference is in
non-quality issues such as warrantees. He claim the workmanship is
the same. Now if you want my opinion, forget what that site said and
pay more for the warrantee and certainty if something goes wrong.
Related resources
August 30, 2005 10:48:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Paul Schilter wrote:
> Hi All
> What do you guys buy, gray or USA? Obviously this is a question for
> Americans but I wish to know what is the plus and minus of buying gray
> market cameras and lenses? I know the warranty is less on gray, but how
> much of a warranty do you need on a lens? Or do the modern auto focus
> lens need their share of service? What say you all?
> Paul

It is a gamble. You are hoping that you will not require warranty
service from the official importer in exchange for a lower price.

Some people will always go for the lower price, regardless of the degree
of risk. Others, like me, will pay more so that we don't have any
surprises.

There is no correct answer. Gray market goods are legal in the US, per
a Supreme Court ruling that goes back about 2 decades. The official
importer is under no obligation to provide service on merchandise that
they did not import. I believe that Nikon USA will not offer any
service on gray-market equipment, even if the customer offers to pay for
it. That is a high price to pay just to save a few bucks--at least, I
think it is.

My own experience is that whenever I tried to cut a corner to save a
buck, it cost me double in the long run. I'd buy a gray-market Seiko
wristwatch--something that I would probably discard once it broke--but
I'd never buy gray-market on items that I'd expect to operate reliably
for a long time.

If I want to save a buck that bad, I'll not eat out, or something like
that. I just don't view gray-market as being worth the trouble.
Clearly, you may have a different view, which would be equally valid.
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 10:54:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:20:05 -0400, in rec.photo.digital Paul Schilter
<paulschilter@nospamcomcast.net> wrote:

> What do you guys buy, gray or USA? Obviously this is a question for
>Americans but I wish to know what is the plus and minus of buying gray
>market cameras and lenses? I know the warranty is less on gray, but how
>much of a warranty do you need on a lens? Or do the modern auto focus
>lens need their share of service? What say you all?

Both. In my situation I bought the USA version of the Nikon 70-200mm f/2.8
VR lens and a bit later the gray market TC-20IIE teleconverter, both from
B&H. As it was the US spec lens had a Nikon rebate that covered much of the
price difference and came with a 5yr vs 1yr from B&H warranty on the
import. Given the complexity of the stabilized VR lens, this seemed a
no-brainer. The TC on the other hand has no real moving parts and a 1 year
warranty in either case.
----------
Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
See images taken with my CP-990/5700 & D70 at
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index...
August 30, 2005 10:57:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Kurt wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:20:05 -0400, Paul Schilter
> <paulschilter@nospamcomcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Hi All
>> What do you guys buy, gray or USA? Obviously this is a question for
>>Americans but I wish to know what is the plus and minus of buying gray
>>market cameras and lenses? I know the warranty is less on gray, but how
>>much of a warranty do you need on a lens? Or do the modern auto focus
>>lens need their share of service? What say you all?
>>Paul
>
>
>
> Recently I read on some photo site that the difference is in
> non-quality issues such as warrantees. He claim the workmanship is
> the same. Now if you want my opinion, forget what that site said and
> pay more for the warrantee and certainty if something goes wrong.


I do remember reading about gray-market BMWs and Mercedes Benzes that
were being brought into the US by unofficial channels. Not sure if this
is still being done. The vehicles that were coming in were not models
that were destined for US consumers. There were problems with missing
catalytic converters, and speedometers that read out only in kilometres
per hour--that sort of thing.

It is difficult to determine the amount of the actual savings on
products like this, because they really are not always the same as the
officially-imported product (not so applicable with cameras).

I can think of other ways to save money, that come with no risk.
August 31, 2005 1:32:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

I'll buy grey lenses etc from a store I trust - certainly not from the
sleaze dealers who advertise US Warantee and send grey market goods - but
for camera bodies which are loaded with electronics I buy US. Same with IS
lenses, although I only have one.

--
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
The Improved Links Pages are at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
A sample chapter from "Haight-Ashbury" is at
http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html

"Paul Schilter" <paulschilter@nospamcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:1KSdna-C4JzMPoneRVn-sw@comcast.com...
> Hi All
> What do you guys buy, gray or USA? Obviously this is a question for
> Americans but I wish to know what is the plus and minus of buying gray
> market cameras and lenses? I know the warranty is less on gray, but how
> much of a warranty do you need on a lens? Or do the modern auto focus
> lens need their share of service? What say you all?
> Paul
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 2:21:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Paul Schilter" <paulschilter@nospamcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:1KSdna-C4JzMPoneRVn-sw@comcast.com...
> Hi All
> What do you guys buy, gray or USA? Obviously this is a question for
> Americans but I wish to know what is the plus and minus of buying gray
> market cameras and lenses? I know the warranty is less on gray, but how
> much of a warranty do you need on a lens? Or do the modern auto focus lens
> need their share of service? What say you all?
> Paul

If you drop your lens and it's still under USA warranty there is a good
chance they will fix it for free. It happened to me!
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 3:17:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

When I bought my Canon EOS 50e I got a gray market model because
it was a significant cost savings, and had features the U.S. model
didn't. The prices on the Canon EOS 20D were comparable so I got a
USA model.

Canon is good about honoring warranties worldwide. Other manufacturers
aren't.

Paul Schilter wrote:
> Hi All
> What do you guys buy, gray or USA? Obviously this is a question for
> Americans but I wish to know what is the plus and minus of buying gray
> market cameras and lenses? I know the warranty is less on gray, but how
> much of a warranty do you need on a lens? Or do the modern auto focus
> lens need their share of service? What say you all?
> Paul
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 6:08:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <1KSdna-C4JzMPoneRVn-sw@comcast.com>,
Paul Schilter <paulschilter@nospamcomcast.net> wrote:

> Hi All
> What do you guys buy, gray or USA? Obviously this is a question for
> Americans but I wish to know what is the plus and minus of buying gray
> market cameras and lenses? I know the warranty is less on gray, but how
> much of a warranty do you need on a lens? Or do the modern auto focus
> lens need their share of service? What say you all?

I prefer to stay away from gray market camera gear. The benefit to
buying USA stuff is the warranty. If something happens to an item you
buy that's off the gray market, you are probably screwed. I would just
as soon pay the extra money for the "official" product.
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 6:48:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Kurt,
For example with electronics like a TV I never buy the extended
warranty, if it lasts past its normal warranty they seem to last for a
long time. Is it your experience that cameras have a good amount of
warranty issues?
Paul


Kurt wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:20:05 -0400, Paul Schilter
> <paulschilter@nospamcomcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Hi All
>> What do you guys buy, gray or USA? Obviously this is a question for
>>Americans but I wish to know what is the plus and minus of buying gray
>>market cameras and lenses? I know the warranty is less on gray, but how
>>much of a warranty do you need on a lens? Or do the modern auto focus
>>lens need their share of service? What say you all?
>>Paul
>
>
>
> Recently I read on some photo site that the difference is in
> non-quality issues such as warrantees. He claim the workmanship is
> the same. Now if you want my opinion, forget what that site said and
> pay more for the warrantee and certainty if something goes wrong.
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 6:54:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Jeremy,
Well if a camera or lens does screw up and it's out of warranty, who do
you get to fix it, do the camera shops repair them or do most just sell
them and ship them back to the manufacturer if they need repair? How can
you tell a gray market camera from a USA one? Are there markings or is
it just a serial number that the manufacturer or store can look up? Are
there statistics for the amount of warranty repair required like there
is for cars?
Paul


Jeremy wrote:
> Paul Schilter wrote:
>
>> Hi All
>> What do you guys buy, gray or USA? Obviously this is a question
>> for Americans but I wish to know what is the plus and minus of buying
>> gray market cameras and lenses? I know the warranty is less on gray,
>> but how much of a warranty do you need on a lens? Or do the modern
>> auto focus lens need their share of service? What say you all?
>> Paul
>
>
> It is a gamble. You are hoping that you will not require warranty
> service from the official importer in exchange for a lower price.
>
> Some people will always go for the lower price, regardless of the degree
> of risk. Others, like me, will pay more so that we don't have any
> surprises.
>
> There is no correct answer. Gray market goods are legal in the US, per
> a Supreme Court ruling that goes back about 2 decades. The official
> importer is under no obligation to provide service on merchandise that
> they did not import. I believe that Nikon USA will not offer any
> service on gray-market equipment, even if the customer offers to pay for
> it. That is a high price to pay just to save a few bucks--at least, I
> think it is.
>
> My own experience is that whenever I tried to cut a corner to save a
> buck, it cost me double in the long run. I'd buy a gray-market Seiko
> wristwatch--something that I would probably discard once it broke--but
> I'd never buy gray-market on items that I'd expect to operate reliably
> for a long time.
>
> If I want to save a buck that bad, I'll not eat out, or something like
> that. I just don't view gray-market as being worth the trouble.
> Clearly, you may have a different view, which would be equally valid.
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 6:59:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Tony,
I tend to agree with you. I have a FE Nikon with a couple of mechanical
lens. I figure lens like that there isn't too much to go wrong. But with
modern auto focus lens it seems there's a lot more that can go wrong.
The camera body for all practical purposes is a miniature computer.
Paul


Tony wrote:
> I'll buy grey lenses etc from a store I trust - certainly not from the
> sleaze dealers who advertise US Warantee and send grey market goods - but
> for camera bodies which are loaded with electronics I buy US. Same with IS
> lenses, although I only have one.
>
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 7:00:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Dave,
Now that is sure more then I'd expect, almost an insurance policy.
Paul


Dave R knows who wrote:
> "Paul Schilter" <paulschilter@nospamcomcast.net> wrote in message
> news:1KSdna-C4JzMPoneRVn-sw@comcast.com...
>
>>Hi All
>>What do you guys buy, gray or USA? Obviously this is a question for
>>Americans but I wish to know what is the plus and minus of buying gray
>>market cameras and lenses? I know the warranty is less on gray, but how
>>much of a warranty do you need on a lens? Or do the modern auto focus lens
>>need their share of service? What say you all?
>>Paul
>
>
> If you drop your lens and it's still under USA warranty there is a good
> chance they will fix it for free. It happened to me!
>
>
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 7:15:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

<If you drop your lens and it's still under USA warranty there is a
good
chance they will fix it for free. It happened to me! >

Canon USA has a very good rep for doing warrranty work on "grey" goods
as long as the purchase date can be documented. Nikon USA OTOH is
adament they won't touch a "grey" product in or out of warranty.

That said, if you drop it, that's not covered by ANY warranty.

Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video, Inc.
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 7:21:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

<Honeywell refused to sell parts or give service to gray market
cameras,
and they had the use of the Pentax trademark in the US.>

Owning the trademark is a big deal as far as "grey market" is
concerned. Mamiya America owns the trademark for their name and there's
no "grey market" Mamiya stuff around.

<http://www.supnik.com/parallel.htm&gt;

Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video, Inc.
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 7:21:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Mike,
Well that's good to know.
Paul


Mike Berger wrote:

snipped

> Canon is good about honoring warranties worldwide. Other manufacturers
> aren't.
>
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 7:46:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <Z56dnYqM1JYMZojeRVn-qg@comcast.com>,
Paul Schilter <paulschilter@nospamcomcast.net> wrote:

> Is it your experience that cameras have a good amount of
> warranty issues?

How often do you throw your TV over your shoulder and take it to the
beach, or on a boat trip or up a mountain? Or use it to record a ball
game or a riot or a horse or car race? How often have you dropped your
TV? even just on a sofa? or turned around suddenly and banged it into a
wall, door, tree? When was the last time your TV was used outdoors in
rain, snow, hail, etc.? When was the last time sand was blown or kicked
in to it?

A camera is exposed to far more things that can make it need service
then a TV that just sits and turns on and off and changes channels.

--
To reply no_ HPMarketing Corp.
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 7:52:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

I bought a Tamron 24 mm for my previous Nikon FM-2
SLR, and after letting it in my awful humid flat for the summer it was full
with fungi, and I had the front element cleaned for free (using the
guarantee).

--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering, freelance electrician
FH von Iraklion-Kreta, freiberuflicher Elektriker
dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
? "Ed Ruf" <egruf_usenet@cox.net> ?????? ??? ??????
news:glo9h1p1qmvcahubol4p1n5207nvq9mgv9@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:20:05 -0400, in rec.photo.digital Paul Schilter
> <paulschilter@nospamcomcast.net> wrote:
>
> > What do you guys buy, gray or USA? Obviously this is a question for
> >Americans but I wish to know what is the plus and minus of buying gray
> >market cameras and lenses? I know the warranty is less on gray, but how
> >much of a warranty do you need on a lens? Or do the modern auto focus
> >lens need their share of service? What say you all?
>
> Both. In my situation I bought the USA version of the Nikon 70-200mm f/2.8
> VR lens and a bit later the gray market TC-20IIE teleconverter, both from
> B&H. As it was the US spec lens had a Nikon rebate that covered much of
the
> price difference and came with a 5yr vs 1yr from B&H warranty on the
> import. Given the complexity of the stabilized VR lens, this seemed a
> no-brainer. The TC on the other hand has no real moving parts and a 1 year
> warranty in either case.
> ----------
> Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
> See images taken with my CP-990/5700 & D70 at
> http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index...
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 9:22:22 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Paul Schilter <paulschilter@nospamcomcast.net> wrote:
> Hi All
> What do you guys buy, gray or USA? Obviously this is a question for
> Americans but I wish to know what is the plus and minus of buying gray
> market cameras and lenses? I know the warranty is less on gray, but how

Not necessarily just a question for Americans - a Canadian buying goods from
the US is also purchasing grey market goods.

I bought my video camera, a Sony VX2000, at B&H and brought it back to
Canada while vacationing. I believe it cost around $2350 USD at the time,
when the same camera would sell in Canadian stores for no less than $4500
Canadian (plus about 15% taxes in most provinces). Even though I knew I was
taking the risk in buying from the States (and complicating any potential
warranty issues), the savings were just too substantial.
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 3:47:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

<I have gear I have
bought on location in UK, Japan, USA, and New Zealand over the last
few years. It's all out of warranty by now, except for my latest D70
body. >

None of which is "grey market," presuming the UK, Japan etc retailers
were selling "kosher" merchandise.

<If any of it breaks whilst shooting in the USA I'll expect Nikon
USA to take my money and fix it, or there will be hell to pay>

I'm not certain Nikon USA is shaken to the core by your threats. :-)

Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video, Inc.
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 6:18:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:48:14 GMT, Jeremy <jeremy@nospam.com> wrote:

>I believe that Nikon USA will not offer any
>service on gray-market equipment, even if the customer offers to pay for
> it.

Which is an absolute disgrace for a supposedly-professional company,
supposedly catering to professional photographers. I have gear I have
bought on location in UK, Japan, USA, and New Zealand over the last
few years. It's all out of warranty by now, except for my latest D70
body. If any of it breaks whilst shooting in the USA I'll expect Nikon
USA to take my money and fix it, or there will be hell to pay.

Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 8:50:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

This one puzzles me.

Is it not normal for someone to go overseas, buy a D70* or whatever and
bring it back to the US and have Nikon honor the international
warranty?

* I do not actually know if the D70 is covered by international
warranty. I know Canon dSLRs are not.

T.
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 10:38:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On 7 Sep 2005 11:47:04 -0700, "henryp" <henryp@bhphotovideo.com>
wrote:

><I have gear I have
>bought on location in UK, Japan, USA, and New Zealand over the last
>few years. It's all out of warranty by now, except for my latest D70
>body. >
>
>None of which is "grey market," presuming the UK, Japan etc retailers
>were selling "kosher" merchandise.

Oh no - but I've heard third-hand anecdotes that Nikon USA will
*refuse to look at* any equipment they didn't sell - they don't
distinguish between "grey market" US imports, and equipment
legitimately purchased overseas. Allegedly.

><If any of it breaks whilst shooting in the USA I'll expect Nikon
>USA to take my money and fix it, or there will be hell to pay>
>
>I'm not certain Nikon USA is shaken to the core by your threats. :-)

LOL probably not - but I'm surprised that the Japanese parent has
allowed Nikon USA to take such a hard-line attitude, in these days
when international travel is so common. Because at the end of the day,
photographers tend not to distinguish between the various 'Nikons' -
they see one brand, one which doesn't support international
photographers in the USA.

(nice to see you responding here BTW - since moving to NYC a few years
ago I've become a B&H addict!)

Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 11:24:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

henryp <henryp@bhphotovideo.com> wrote:
> <I have gear I have
> bought on location in UK, Japan, USA, and New Zealand over the last
> few years. It's all out of warranty by now, except for my latest D70
> body. >
>
> None of which is "grey market," presuming the UK, Japan etc retailers
> were selling "kosher" merchandise.
>
> <If any of it breaks whilst shooting in the USA I'll expect Nikon
> USA to take my money and fix it, or there will be hell to pay>
>
> I'm not certain Nikon USA is shaken to the core by your threats. :-)
>
> Henry Posner
> B&H Photo-Video, Inc.
>

Besides, I am sure B&H Photo-Video would fix it for a fee, right?
Especially if purchased from them in the first place. I own the 24-85
AFS EF G 3.5-4.5f that I purchased from B&H as grey market (my only grey
lens). I have been happy with it and I know B&H handles the warranty
for the first year.

BTW ... B&H Rocks!

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse
Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE 34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1
Spammers please contact me at renegade@veldy.net.
September 7, 2005 11:34:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Mike Ross" <mike@corestore.org> wrote in message
news:1126116941.864e681951bd209da43aaf5251a1ee21@teranews...
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:48:14 GMT, Jeremy <jeremy@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>I believe that Nikon USA will not offer any
>>service on gray-market equipment, even if the customer offers to pay for
>> it.
>
> Which is an absolute disgrace for a supposedly-professional company,
> supposedly catering to professional photographers. I have gear I have
> bought on location in UK, Japan, USA, and New Zealand over the last
> few years. It's all out of warranty by now, except for my latest D70
> body.

That is not considered gray market, if it was purchased through legitimate
channels in whatever country you bought it in. You'll probably need proof
of purchase.


If any of it breaks whilst shooting in the USA I'll expect Nikon
> USA to take my money and fix it, or there will be hell to pay.
>

Nikon USA has absolutely no legal obligation to provide service or parts for
merchandise that they did not actually import. The only merchandise that
they are legally bound to service is that which they warranted.

They may (they probably DO) have an agreement with the factory to provide
warranty work and parts for certain goods that were purchased through the
legitimate importer(s) in other countries, but that agreement is between
them and the factory, not between them and YOU.

Although I am not a Nikon user, I applaud their exercising their legal right
to not divert their resources for the benefit of importers and their
customers that have bypassed Nikon USA and have procured Nikon goods through
alternate channels. Nikon USA, and their customers by extension, have borne
the costs of promoting the goods, of maintaining parts inventories, service
locations, and paying salaries of technicians and other support personnel.
There is a substantial cost associated with that, and those that procure
Nikon equipment through other import channels have absolutely no right to
expect a free ride at the expense of Nikon USA.

And, yes, I KNOW that Canon will service your gear wherever it was bought.
That is a business decision that Canon has the right to make. It does not
bind any other company to follow their lead. Canon obviously believes that
their "nice guy" approach will result in more sales. Good for them.

When the US Supreme Court ruled on gray market issues years ago, they ruled
that while the importation could not be restricted to only official
importers, those official importers had absolutely no *obligation* to
provide anything to the interlopers. That is the settled law of the land in
the US, and it is quite reasonable and fair.
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 11:34:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 19:34:43 GMT, "Jeremy" <jeremy@nospam.com> wrote:

>"Mike Ross" <mike@corestore.org> wrote in message
>news:1126116941.864e681951bd209da43aaf5251a1ee21@teranews...
>> On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:48:14 GMT, Jeremy <jeremy@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I believe that Nikon USA will not offer any
>>>service on gray-market equipment, even if the customer offers to pay for
>>> it.
>>
>> Which is an absolute disgrace for a supposedly-professional company,
>> supposedly catering to professional photographers. I have gear I have
>> bought on location in UK, Japan, USA, and New Zealand over the last
>> few years. It's all out of warranty by now, except for my latest D70
>> body.
>
>That is not considered gray market, if it was purchased through legitimate
>channels in whatever country you bought it in. You'll probably need proof
>of purchase.

Which I don't have for 90% of my gear; I've heard the same - Nikon USA
*assume* anything they didn't sell is a grey market US import, unless
the customer can prove otherwise.

>If any of it breaks whilst shooting in the USA I'll expect Nikon
>> USA to take my money and fix it, or there will be hell to pay.
>>
>
>Nikon USA has absolutely no legal obligation to provide service or parts for
>merchandise that they did not actually import. The only merchandise that
>they are legally bound to service is that which they warranted.

I agree 100%. This isn't about legal requirements. My point is they
*should* support any Nikon customer who has a problem, provided
they're willing to pay if not covered by warranty. It's a reasonable
expectation for the user, especially the pro/semi-pro user, that a
high-end international company like Nikon should provide paid service
to out-of-warranty equipment, in whatever country they should find
themselves when it fails.

>They may (they probably DO) have an agreement with the factory to provide
>warranty work and parts for certain goods that were purchased through the
>legitimate importer(s) in other countries, but that agreement is between
>them and the factory, not between them and YOU.

This discussion isn't primarily about warranty work; it's about their
refusal to work on *any* item they didn't sell, except perhaps in
cases where the customer can prove it was NOT a grey import. Kinda
hard to prove a negative, unless you're very disciplined about keeping
purchase receipts, and carrying them with you at all times. THIS is
what I'm objecting to; it's a totally unacceptable attitude to take,
especially to the international photographer of the 21st century!

>Although I am not a Nikon user, I applaud their exercising their legal right
>to not divert their resources for the benefit of importers and their
>customers that have bypassed Nikon USA and have procured Nikon goods through
>alternate channels. Nikon USA, and their customers by extension, have borne
>the costs of promoting the goods, of maintaining parts inventories, service
>locations, and paying salaries of technicians and other support personnel.
>There is a substantial cost associated with that, and those that procure
>Nikon equipment through other import channels have absolutely no right to
>expect a free ride at the expense of Nikon USA.

That's exactly the attitude that bugs me from Nikon; no-one is talking
about a 'free ride' - I'm happy to pay my way and pay for service on
out-of-warranty equipment. Nikon can and should charge for that
service at a rate that reflects their overheads as you state. But no,
if I didn't buy the equipment through them they're going to be give me
a very hard time and probably refuse to service it at all. They're
going to assume (as you seem to do) that I'm low-life grey-market scum
hell-bent on stealing the bread from their childrens mouths, unless I
can prove otherwise. If I can so prove they may possibly condescend to
look at my faulty gear. That is one hell of an attitude to take with
customers.

>And, yes, I KNOW that Canon will service your gear wherever it was bought.
>That is a business decision that Canon has the right to make. It does not
>bind any other company to follow their lead. Canon obviously believes that
>their "nice guy" approach will result in more sales. Good for them.

The only reason I won't use Canon is that they screwed me even worse,
when they built the EF mount such that all my FD glass became obsolete
overnight. But that's a different rant.

>When the US Supreme Court ruled on gray market issues years ago, they ruled
>that while the importation could not be restricted to only official
>importers, those official importers had absolutely no *obligation* to
>provide anything to the interlopers. That is the settled law of the land in
>the US, and it is quite reasonable and fair.

Again, you're assuming that everyone who didn't buy from Nikon USA
stock is a heinous evil grey import person. Just like Nikon USA do.
Which is wrong.

Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'
September 7, 2005 11:43:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

From the Nikon USA web site, here it is, straight from the horse's mouth:
________________________________________

Generally, a manufacturer works with a single importer who can sell and
support their products in a given region. The importer usually has local
dealers and distributors who resell the imported products; this is called a
"distribution channel". Gray Market refers to merchandise that is imported
and sold by methods other than these normal channels.
For local safety regulations and certifications (FCC, CE, UL, etc.) and
government requirements a manufacturer provides special packaging (manuals
in the appropriate language, power cables designed for the local receptacle,
etc.) and product engineering designed to meet local codes. Manufacturers
also have service and support agreements with the authorized importer.

Gray Market items are not designed to be sold in a particular market and
cannot be supported by the authorized importer because they may not meet
mandatory safety and certification codes. Because these items are not
designed for a particular market they may not function properly, or the
authorized importer may not be equipped to provide service, support or
software.

With the opening of international borders and the use of the Internet to
sell goods, Gray Market equipment has become extremely common in the
photographic and consumer electronics markets. Many different types of
equipment are brought into North America for sale without the proper
documentation and US consumers do not always know what they are purchasing.

Because the resellers' cost is less they can sell Gray Market items for
less. Unfortunately this price savings is only on the initial purchase;
because service and support is more difficult to obtain it may end up
costing the consumer more in the long run.

Who is the authorized importer of Nikon Equipment into the USA?
Nikon Incorporated USA is the sole authorized importer of Nikon Corporation
of Japan for photographic devices. Nikon Inc. USA pays shipping into the
USA, import duties and taxes, and provides service, support and downloads
for these products. Nikon Inc. USA ensures that the products they import are
fully certified and safe for use in the USA market.

Nikon Inc. USA cannot provide service, support or downloads for products
that have not been imported by Nikon Inc. USA.

How do I know if my Nikon product is "Grey Market"?
If the deal was just too good to be true, it probably was. One of the first
indicators that a piece of Nikon merchandise might be Gray Market is if the
price is considerably less than most other resellers.

Additionally, a genuine Nikon Inc. USA product will include an Owners'
Manual and Warranty Registration card in English. It will also include power
cables (if applicable) designed for US style plugs. Any other language on
the printed material or wrong cables indicates a Gray Market item.

Another indication of a Gray Market product would be photocopied manuals or
manually created software CD's. Nikon Inc. USA always provides
professionally printed or duplicated materials with genuine products.

What does owning a "Grey Market" Nikon product mean to you?
Nikon Inc. USA cannot provide any technical support or warranty service on
Gray Market items. Additionally Nikon Inc. USA cannot perform any fee-based
repair work on Gray Market items. Please do not contact Nikon Inc. USA for
help with any Gray Market products. Please contact the reseller or importer
of your Gray Market items for warranty and service information as well as
software updates and downloads.

Does owning a "Grey Market" Nikon product mean I don't have a warranty?
No! All Nikon products come with a warranty by the manufacturer. The
designated Nikon service center will always repair "in warranty" Nikon
products and perform "out of warranty" repairs. If you own a Gray Market
product it will need to be returned to the reseller or importer for service.
Refer to your reseller or to the warranty cards included with the product
for service contact information.
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 12:03:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Jeremy wrote:

> Because these items are not designed for a particular market they may not function properly,

Funny stuff!

> Nikon Inc. USA cannot provide service, support or downloads for products
> that have not been imported by Nikon Inc. USA.

Not true. Nikon Inc. USA _will not_ provide any of those things,
"cannot" is a weasel word.

> Nikon Inc. USA cannot provide any technical support or warranty service on
> Gray Market items. Additionally Nikon Inc. USA cannot perform any fee-based
> repair work on Gray Market items. Please do not contact Nikon Inc. USA for
> help with any Gray Market products. Please contact the reseller or importer
> of your Gray Market items for warranty and service information as well as
> software updates and downloads.

This is where Nikon is really shooting themselves in the foot. Many
people buy cameras in other countries, while on vacation. These are not
grey market, but Nikon U.S.A. will still not repair them because they
believe that every non U.S.A. Nikon product is grey market.

Other camera manufacturers are much more relaxed in their approach to
grey market items, knowing that it isn't worth offending a customer over
something that is not enough of a problem to really worry about. They
will fix grey market stuff out of warranty, for a fee, and sometimes fix
it in warranty as well.
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 5:04:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On the other hand why should Nikon USA repair something they made no money
off of. Just because Nikon USA shares a similar name as Nikon Japan doesn't
mean all of the money from Nikon USA, Nikon Japan and Nikon whatever ends up
one place. Each countries respective Nikon is a seperate entity and they
each treat their finances as such.

Expecting Nikon USA to repair a product bought in another country is like
expecting Ford to repair a Chevy simply because they can go down to Chevy
and by the needed parts.

Usually foreign products have different specifications. Look at power
adapters for Europe, they won't work in the USA without a converter. But,
because the power is different the internal components the handle that power
are also different. Sensor chips and other things could come from other
factories.

I see nothing wrong with Nikon's policy. If you bought outside the USA
simply ship it to an authorized service center where you bought it. No
problem, it gets fixed and gets sent back to you.

Robert
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 5:04:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 01:04:10 GMT, "Ultra-Sharpen" <nospam@nospam.com>
wrote:

>On the other hand why should Nikon USA repair something they made no money
>off of.

Well by that logic there shouldn't be any independent repair shops
either - they all make their money repairing things they didn't sell.
Why should Nikon USA make money repairing something they didn't sell?

>Just because Nikon USA shares a similar name as Nikon Japan doesn't
>mean all of the money from Nikon USA, Nikon Japan and Nikon whatever ends up
>one place. Each countries respective Nikon is a seperate entity and they
>each treat their finances as such.

Of course not. But the Nikon brand is an international brand; most
photographers neither know nor care about the ownership relationships
between different bits of 'Nikon'.

>Expecting Nikon USA to repair a product bought in another country is like
>expecting Ford to repair a Chevy simply because they can go down to Chevy
>and by the needed parts.

No, it's like buying a Ford from your local dealer in, say, New York,
and being told when it breaks down on vacation in, say, Vermont, that
the Ford dealer in that area won't even look at it because they didn't
make any money selling it to you.

>Usually foreign products have different specifications. Look at power
>adapters for Europe, they won't work in the USA without a converter. But,
>because the power is different the internal components the handle that power
>are also different. Sensor chips and other things could come from other
>factories.

Mostly nonsense. One of the things people are most likely to take on
vacation with them is... a camera! Pretty much every camera these days
comes with a 'universal' charger which works on any local electricity
supply, in my experience.

>I see nothing wrong with Nikon's policy. If you bought outside the USA
>simply ship it to an authorized service center where you bought it. No
>problem, it gets fixed and gets sent back to you.

I see nothing wrong with Nikon USA getting the finger out and fixing
broken Nikon gear, wherever it was bought. It's what I would expect of
an international company which has decades of experience meeting the
needs of the most demanding professionals.

Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 3:26:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

>> This is where Nikon is really shooting themselves in the foot. Many people
>> buy cameras in other countries, while on vacation. These are not grey
>> market, but Nikon U.S.A. will still not repair them because they believe
>> that every non U.S.A. Nikon product is grey market.

> Wrong.

Right ... these "vacation" purchases are still grey market. You have
to
return them via the channel they were purchased to get them repaired. >

As far as I know, and I hear a lot, if the camera or lens or whatever
was purchased fro a legit "kosher" retailer outside the USA and then
brought to the USA and is under warranty by virtue of the purchase
date, Nikon USA will not treat that item as "grey market."

Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video, Inc.
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 3:33:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

<Mr. Posner works for B&H and a very value asset to RPD.>

Thank you.

Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video, Inc.
September 8, 2005 5:02:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:MIHTe.12549$p%3.50879@typhoon.sonic.net...
>
> Not true. Nikon Inc. USA _will not_ provide any of those things, "cannot"
> is a weasel word.
>

Perhaps. One might counter that people that buy gear through phantom
importers are weasels, too . . .



>
> This is where Nikon is really shooting themselves in the foot. Many people
> buy cameras in other countries, while on vacation. These are not grey
> market, but Nikon U.S.A. will still not repair them because they believe
> that every non U.S.A. Nikon product is grey market.
>

Wrong.
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 5:18:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Jeremy <jeremy@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> "SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
> news:MIHTe.12549$p%3.50879@typhoon.sonic.net...
>>
>> Not true. Nikon Inc. USA _will not_ provide any of those things, "cannot"
>> is a weasel word.
>>
>
> Perhaps. One might counter that people that buy gear through phantom
> importers are weasels, too . . .
>

So B&H Photo and Andorama are phantom importers and weasels? Whether we
like it or not, Nikon USA has a *right* to no warrantee or repair
anything it did not sell. Whether that is good for business is another
discussion.

>>
>> This is where Nikon is really shooting themselves in the foot. Many people
>> buy cameras in other countries, while on vacation. These are not grey
>> market, but Nikon U.S.A. will still not repair them because they believe
>> that every non U.S.A. Nikon product is grey market.
>>
>
> Wrong.
>

Right ... these "vacation" purchases are still grey market. You have to
return them via the channel they were purchased to get them repaired.
If you are standing in the USA, where Nikon USA is the exclusive supply
channel, and your warrantted lens breaks, you need to send it to the repair
center supported via the channel you purchased the lens, which would be
in a grey [non-US] market.

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse
Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE 34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1
Spammers please contact me at renegade@veldy.net.
September 8, 2005 5:21:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Mike Ross" <mike@corestore.org> wrote in message >

> Well by that logic there shouldn't be any independent repair shops
> either - they all make their money repairing things they didn't sell.

Nonsense. Nikon USA even lists authorized, independent repair facilities on
their web site.

Nikon chooses to give no support to customers of OTHER ("gray market")
importers. That is their legal right.


>
> Of course not. But the Nikon brand is an international brand; most
> photographers neither know nor care about the ownership relationships
> between different bits of 'Nikon'.
>

You are confused. They are separate legal entities. Nikon USA does not
warrant gear imported by other unofficial importers. The fact that the name
"Nikon" is badged onto the cameras is irrelevent.

This is not rocket science. People that are smart enough to seek out gray
market camera gear are also intellegent enough to know that they are
bypassing the official US importer. The Supreme Court ruling has been in
effect for decades. Perhaps you should be angry at the DEALER that sold the
gray market merchandise, for not completely disclosing the facts to the
consumer?


>
> No, it's like buying a Ford from your local dealer in, say, New York,
> and being told when it breaks down on vacation in, say, Vermont, that
> the Ford dealer in that area won't even look at it because they didn't
> make any money selling it to you.
>

You show your ignorance of the law when you make such inaccurate statements.

>
> Mostly nonsense. One of the things people are most likely to take on
> vacation with them is... a camera!


Actually, your obviously-flawed pseudo-legal arguments are mostly nonsense.
You are asserting what you would LIKE to be, as though it were actually the
LAW. You are completely incorrect.

Let me state it simply: under US law, gray market importers are NOT
prohibited from operating, BUT their customers have NO LEGAL RIGHT to expect
warranty service or any other support from ANY BUT THE IMPORTER THAT
ACTUALLY BROUGHT IN THE GOODS. The gray market importer could, if it
wanted, offer a warranty of only 30 days, as opposed to Nikon USA's warranty
period of, say, one year. The US warranty (if there is one) is offered by
the individual importer.

There is an international warranty from Nikon in Japan, but that requires
that the customer ship the camera back to them (and probably pay shipping
both ways). That "factory" warranty is separate from any local importer's
warranty.

>
> I see nothing wrong with Nikon USA getting the finger out and fixing
> broken Nikon gear, wherever it was bought. It's what I would expect of
> an international company which has decades of experience meeting the
> needs of the most demanding professionals.
>

That is because you are obviously uninformed. Nikon COULD repair gray
market goods, if it elected to do so, as Canon does, but they elect to
EXERCISE THEIR RIGHT to DECLINE such business. What is so difficult to
understand about this? That is the law.
September 8, 2005 5:28:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Mike Ross" <mike@corestore.org> wrote in message
news:1126132575.3508f9074c5d878415ab3ded3f5df5fd@teranews...
>
> Oh no - but I've heard third-hand anecdotes that Nikon USA will
> *refuse to look at* any equipment they didn't sell - they don't
> distinguish between "grey market" US imports, and equipment
> legitimately purchased overseas. Allegedly.
>

Based on the inaccurate statements that you have made in previous posts,
your allegation that Nikon USA won't even look at equipment that they did
not sell is probably just as incorrect.

Perhaps Mr. Posner can clarify this, as he must work with Nikon USA.

My own experience with other camera lines is that there is reciprocity for
customers of other countries' OFFICIAL importers. So, if a British visitor,
who purchased a Nikon camera in Britain, imported by Nikon's official
importer, were to require warranty service in the US, it would be handled by
Nikon USA, just as an American that was visiting Britain would receive
reciprocal warranty service from the local British importer, if the
equipment was purchased via Nikon USA.

I do not know what the policy is if an American bought the equipment in a
foreign country, and then brought it home to the US. Nikon USA did not
import it, Nikon USA did not receive a single cent in profit on the
equipment, and they could, presumably, decline to support it. The customer
might have to ship the gear back to the country in which it was purchased.

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can clarify this point.
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 5:28:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 13:28:12 GMT, "Jeremy" <jeremy@nospam.com> wrote:

>
>"Mike Ross" <mike@corestore.org> wrote in message
>news:1126132575.3508f9074c5d878415ab3ded3f5df5fd@teranews...
>>
>> Oh no - but I've heard third-hand anecdotes that Nikon USA will
>> *refuse to look at* any equipment they didn't sell - they don't
>> distinguish between "grey market" US imports, and equipment
>> legitimately purchased overseas. Allegedly.
>>
>
>Based on the inaccurate statements that you have made in previous posts,
>your allegation that Nikon USA won't even look at equipment that they did
>not sell is probably just as incorrect.
>
>Perhaps Mr. Posner can clarify this, as he must work with Nikon USA.

Mr. Posner works for B&H and a very value asset to RPD.


******************************************************

"I have been a witness, and these pictures are
my testimony. The events I have recorded should
not be forgotten and must not be repeated."

-James Nachtwey-
http://www.jamesnachtwey.com/
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 5:28:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 13:28:12 GMT, "Jeremy" <jeremy@nospam.com> wrote:

>"Mike Ross" <mike@corestore.org> wrote in message
>news:1126132575.3508f9074c5d878415ab3ded3f5df5fd@teranews...
>>
>> Oh no - but I've heard third-hand anecdotes that Nikon USA will
>> *refuse to look at* any equipment they didn't sell - they don't
>> distinguish between "grey market" US imports, and equipment
>> legitimately purchased overseas. Allegedly.
>>
>
>Based on the inaccurate statements that you have made in previous posts,
>your allegation that Nikon USA won't even look at equipment that they did
>not sell is probably just as incorrect.

Doing a Google search on "nikon gray market" (sans quotes) will bring
up a lot of sites documenting Nikon's refusal to work on gray market
imports.

--
Bill Funk
Replace "g" with "a"
funktionality.blogspot.com
September 8, 2005 5:34:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Thomas T. Veldhouse" <veldy71@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:43203a18$0$63617>

> So B&H Photo and Andorama are phantom importers and weasels?

B&H, as far as I know, does not import the goods themselves. My comment
about weasels was directed at the OP's erroneous logic that Nikon USA was
being a weasel for not honoring someone else's warranty.

Frankly, the policy on gray market goods is not rocket science, and I'm
having difficulty understanding why some US residents don't get it . . .


> If you are standing in the USA, where Nikon USA is the exclusive supply
> channel, and your warrantted lens breaks, you need to send it to the
> repair
> center supported via the channel you purchased the lens, which would be
> in a grey [non-US] market.
>

Not necessarily. The gray market importer may provide excellent service,
right here in the USA. It could even offer a longer warranty than Nikon
USA's, if it so chose.

The point to keep in mind is that the customer must seek support from
whatever channel imported the Nikon gear.

And we must not forget that the reciprocal is also in effect: NO GRAY
MARKET IMPORTER IS REQUIRED TO PROVIDE SUPPORT TO CUSTOMERS OF NIKON USA!

Really, this ain't rocket science.
September 8, 2005 5:44:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Mike Ross" <mike@corestore.org> wrote in message
news:1126134263.baadfb6989728d0d061dd14ccf3f112d@teranews...
>
> I agree 100%. This isn't about legal requirements. My point is they
> *should* support any Nikon customer who has a problem,


That assertion is neither reasonable nor required under US law. You are
suggesting that Nikon USA provide, essentially, something for nothing to
customers of OTHER importers. That simply transfers the cost burden onto
Nikon USA's customers, in the form of higher prices.

That would almost certainly result in Nikon USA's customers defaulting to
the cheapest supplier, and it would have a devastating effect on Nikon USA.
Why would anyone pay their higher prices, if they could be assured of
getting the same level of support from gray market?






>
> This discussion isn't primarily about warranty work; it's about their
> refusal to work on *any* item they didn't sell, except perhaps in
> cases where the customer can prove it was NOT a grey import. Kinda
> hard to prove a negative, unless you're very disciplined about keeping
> purchase receipts, and carrying them with you at all times. THIS is
> what I'm objecting to; it's a totally unacceptable attitude to take,

No it is perfectly reasonable and customary. No company has any obligation
to use their resources for the benefit of a competitor. All you want is
"something for nothing." If you want Nikon USA's support, then buy THEIR
goods, and pay THEIR price.

By the way, if you DO buy Nikon USA's goods, I would not recommend that you
seek support from any gray market Nikon importer--they'll probably send you
back to YOUR importer for support.
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 5:44:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 13:44:04 GMT, "Jeremy" <jeremy@nospam.com> wrote:

>"Mike Ross" <mike@corestore.org> wrote in message
>news:1126134263.baadfb6989728d0d061dd14ccf3f112d@teranews...
>>
>> I agree 100%. This isn't about legal requirements. My point is they
>> *should* support any Nikon customer who has a problem,
>
>That assertion is neither reasonable nor required under US law. You are
>suggesting that Nikon USA provide, essentially, something for nothing to

No, no, NO! Where are you getting 'something for nothing' from? If you
read my original post you would see I was referring to *paid*
out-of-warranty service. From which Nikon USA presumably make a
profit, or at least cover their costs.

>customers of OTHER importers. That simply transfers the cost burden onto
>Nikon USA's customers, in the form of higher prices.

I don't follow your logic - once again, we're talking about *paid*
repair services. From which Nikon USA are certainly entitled to make a
profit, not a loss.

<snip>

>> This discussion isn't primarily about warranty work; it's about their
>> refusal to work on *any* item they didn't sell, except perhaps in
>> cases where the customer can prove it was NOT a grey import. Kinda
>> hard to prove a negative, unless you're very disciplined about keeping
>> purchase receipts, and carrying them with you at all times. THIS is
>> what I'm objecting to; it's a totally unacceptable attitude to take,
>
>No it is perfectly reasonable and customary. No company has any obligation
>to use their resources for the benefit of a competitor.

What competitor are you referring too? In what sense is Nikon UK,
Nikon Japan, or Nikon New Zealand a competitor for Nikon USA? This
debate is becoming increasingly surreal.

>All you want is
>"something for nothing." If you want Nikon USA's support, then buy THEIR
>goods, and pay THEIR price.

Here we are, 'something for nothing' again. Try reading for
comprehension; I'm talking about *paid* repair service - paying Nikon
USA to fix Nikon equipment I bought three years ago in Japan, of six
years ago in the UK.

Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 6:35:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Jeremy" <jeremy@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:6JWTe.2856$Vr2.97@trnddc07...

> You are incorrect. Nikon equipment that was originally acquired
> legitimately in other countries would be repairable under warranty, as a
> reciprocal deal among the various official Nikon importers, just as any
> gear that YOU purchased via Nikon USA would be repaired by the official
> importer in another country that you were visiting.

Only pursuant to the warranty. If you buy in the US it will not be covered
in China, because it is a "US-Warranty" only.

> Nikon has NO obligation, legally or ethically, to divert their resources
> for the benefit of customers of other unofficial importers. Those gray
> market importers have the responsibility of providing support to their
> customers, not Nikon USA. What is so difficult to grasp about this? It
> has been the law for about 20 years now.

Even if it isn't law, it shouldn't be hard for anyone to understand that the
unofficial importers are competitors to Nikon USA. And that the sole
deterent to buying Grey Market gear is the lack of warranty and service from
Nikon in America. And if Grey Market gear was as easy to service and
warranty through Nikon USA as Nikon USA gear is, then who in their right
mind wouldn't buy the same gear for less from the Grey Market dealer?

Essentially, Nikon USA would be shooting themselves in the foot if their
policies benefitted people who buy Grey Market gear.
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 7:07:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On 8 Sep 2005 11:33:40 -0700, "henryp" <henryp@bhphotovideo.com>
wrote:

><Mr. Posner works for B&H and a very value asset to RPD.>
>
>Thank you.
>
>Henry Posner
>B&H Photo-Video, Inc.

Just hurry and get some Canon 35mm f1.4L's in so I can get one.


******************************************************

"I have been a witness, and these pictures are
my testimony. The events I have recorded should
not be forgotten and must not be repeated."

-James Nachtwey-
http://www.jamesnachtwey.com/
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 7:37:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On 8 Sep 2005 11:26:49 -0700, "henryp" <henryp@bhphotovideo.com>
wrote:

>>> This is where Nikon is really shooting themselves in the foot. Many people
>>> buy cameras in other countries, while on vacation. These are not grey
>>> market, but Nikon U.S.A. will still not repair them because they believe
>>> that every non U.S.A. Nikon product is grey market.
>
>> Wrong.
>
>Right ... these "vacation" purchases are still grey market. You have
>to return them via the channel they were purchased to get them repaired.

Much as I hate to disagree with such a distinguised contributor...
wrong. IMHO. If CheapWiz Cameras of FlyByNight Ave, Brooklyn, goes to,
say, a Singapore distributor and buys a bunch of D70s, that's grey
market. If J. Random Photographer is shooting in London, decides s/he
needs a wider lens, and buys a 12-24mm from Grays of Westminster
(legendary London Nikon dealer; http://www.graysofwestminster.co.uk ),
that's a personal import and not grey.

At least that's my understanding of the use of the term 'grey market'.

>As far as I know, and I hear a lot, if the camera or lens or whatever
>was purchased fro a legit "kosher" retailer outside the USA and then
>brought to the USA and is under warranty by virtue of the purchase
>date, Nikon USA will not treat that item as "grey market."

Well that kinda contradicts what you said in the previous paragraph,
where you asserted that overseas 'vacation' purchases were grey
market. But it still leaves the question of how Nikon USA will treat
the same product when it's *out* of warranty.

Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 7:37:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Mike Ross" <mike@corestore.org> wrote in message
news:1126208104.d0d70e481f65e7c6f63d75db63dcb911@teranews...
> On 8 Sep 2005 11:26:49 -0700, "henryp" <henryp@bhphotovideo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>>> This is where Nikon is really shooting themselves in the foot. Many
>>>> people
>>>> buy cameras in other countries, while on vacation. These are not grey
>>>> market, but Nikon U.S.A. will still not repair them because they
>>>> believe
>>>> that every non U.S.A. Nikon product is grey market.
>>
>>> Wrong.
>>
>>Right ... these "vacation" purchases are still grey market. You have
>>to return them via the channel they were purchased to get them repaired.
>
> Much as I hate to disagree with such a distinguised contributor...
> wrong. IMHO. If CheapWiz Cameras of FlyByNight Ave, Brooklyn, goes to,
> say, a Singapore distributor and buys a bunch of D70s, that's grey
> market. If J. Random Photographer is shooting in London, decides s/he
> needs a wider lens, and buys a 12-24mm from Grays of Westminster
> (legendary London Nikon dealer; http://www.graysofwestminster.co.uk ),
> that's a personal import and not grey.
>
> At least that's my understanding of the use of the term 'grey market'.
>
>>As far as I know, and I hear a lot, if the camera or lens or whatever
>>was purchased fro a legit "kosher" retailer outside the USA and then
>>brought to the USA and is under warranty by virtue of the purchase
>>date, Nikon USA will not treat that item as "grey market."
>
> Well that kinda contradicts what you said in the previous paragraph,
> where you asserted that overseas 'vacation' purchases were grey
> market. But it still leaves the question of how Nikon USA will treat
> the same product when it's *out* of warranty.

You have attributed incorrectly. Your first quote was posted by someone
else. And they were wrong.

The second quote, posted by Henry, is correct only in regard to the terms of
the warranty....which is irrelevant to the fact that the gear in question
was not "Grey Market".

Some regions get Worldwide warranties and these will be honored anywhere as
long as the gear was not Grey Market (which basically means not purchased in
a market not intended for importation). Some countries get severely
restricted warranties...like here in the US where they are "US Only", which
means if you take the gear to Sweden, Nikon Nordic AB will not honor the
warranty, regardless of the fact that your purchase was a fully legitimate
Nikon USA purchase, under Nikon's rules.

The bottom line is that even if the gear isn't Grey Market, you still don't
know about warranty coverage until you look at the limitations of the
warranty.
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 7:52:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Jeremy wrote:

> Nikon has NO obligation, legally or ethically, to divert their
resources for
> the benefit of customers of other unofficial importers.

Well.. I think that a vendor has the ethical obligation to repair
things it produces in a reasonable warranty period, regardless
of how the customer acquired it (I mean legally of course).
The costs for doing this should be simply part of the price
and the negotiations should go between Nikon as a producer
and Nikon USA as the company that handles the repairs
in that region.

> Nikon equipment that was originally acquired legitimately
> in other countries would be repairable under warranty

Are you sure? How do I know (or even prove) that a camera
purchased where I live (Slovakia) through a possibly long
chain of resellers and importers, qualifies as 'legitimately
acquired' in the USA?

> Those gray market importers have the responsibility of providing
> support to their customers, not Nikon USA.

In the EU we have two 'warranties'. There is a mandatory
one that the reseller has to provide - two years, in the first
half year the customer is right when in doubt, in the
rest the reseller can demand a prove that the device
was faulty when purchased (but they usually don't).
And there is another voluntary one that the vendor
provides - of course, if it is significantly shorter,
they will probably have a problem to find enough
resellers.

Somehow I think that this is a better schema than the
neverending battles regarding gray/official market.

> What is so difficult to grasp about this? It has been the
> law for about 20 years now.

No problem to grasp it, but unfortunately it is the customer
that suffers :( 

--
Stano
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 9:50:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Thu, 8 Sep 2005 14:15:20 -0600, "David Keller"
<davidrodkeller@hotmail.com> wrote:

<snips>

>>>Right ... these "vacation" purchases are still grey market. You have
>>>to return them via the channel they were purchased to get them repaired.

>> Well that kinda contradicts what you said in the previous paragraph,
>> where you asserted that overseas 'vacation' purchases were grey
>> market. But it still leaves the question of how Nikon USA will treat
>> the same product when it's *out* of warranty.
>
>You have attributed incorrectly. Your first quote was posted by someone
>else. And they were wrong.

You're correct - looking back at Henry's post, his quote marks didn't
show correctly on my news client, it made it look as if both
paragraphs were from the same post, by HP. My apologies; he clearly
didn't contradict himself!

Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 10:02:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Paul Schilter wrote:
> Hi All
> What do you guys buy, gray or USA? Obviously this is a question for
> Americans but I wish to know what is the plus and minus of buying gray
> market cameras and lenses? I know the warranty is less on gray, but how
> much of a warranty do you need on a lens? Or do the modern auto focus
> lens need their share of service? What say you all?
> Paul

It depends on the brand. With Canon, I have bought grey market stuff. I
have had out-of-warranty service performed on one camera, for a fee, no
problem. Nikon U.S. will NOT perform service on non-U.S. equipment, no
matter what, not even if you are willing to pay for it. So I would not
buy grey market Nikon equipment, or buy Nikon equipment while out of the
U.S. on vacation or on a business trip.
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 10:05:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Mike Berger wrote:
> When I bought my Canon EOS 50e I got a gray market model because
> it was a significant cost savings, and had features the U.S. model
> didn't. The prices on the Canon EOS 20D were comparable so I got a
> USA model.

I bought the EOS-5 versus the A2E for tha same reasons, features that
were on the non-U.S. model that the U.S. model lacked. I had to have it
serviced once, when the pop-up flash no longer popped-up, and had no
problem getting it fixed, out of warranty, for a fee. As you stated, on
the 20D the cameras are the same no matter where you buy them.
!