New Sony DSC-R1 APS Sized 10 Meg Camera

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/

New class of camera
10 Meg APS sized sensor
3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
ISO 160-3200
2 inch LCD
995 grams inc battery
995 USD

Deryck

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

deryck lant wrote:
> The message <3130303031383935432016B477@deryck.com>
> from deryck lant <deryck@deryck.com> contains these words:
>
>
>>http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/
>
>
>>New class of camera
>>10 Meg APS sized sensor
>>3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
>>24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
>>ISO 160-3200
>>2 inch LCD
>>995 grams inc battery
>>995 USD
>
>
> Forgot to add:
>
> The silent low-light camera for live theatre performance
>
> Deryck


You left out one important element that many people here, like David J
Taylor, are chasing after. The Sony R1 has live preview! It's a CMOS
sensor! Price is $1000. How big is the sensor? Is it the same size as dSLRs?

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"l e o" <someone@somewhere.net> wrote in message
news:AsUTe.166$Ma.51@fe07.lga...
>
> You left out one important element that many people here, like David J
> Taylor, are chasing after. The Sony R1 has live preview! It's a CMOS
> sensor! Price is $1000. How big is the sensor? Is it the same size as
> dSLRs?

More or less - it's 21.5 x 14.4mm, while the 20D sensor is 22.5 x 15mm.

Mark

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Mark B. wrote:
> "l e o" <someone@somewhere.net> wrote in message
> news:AsUTe.166$Ma.51@fe07.lga...
> >
> > You left out one important element that many people here, like David J
> > Taylor, are chasing after. The Sony R1 has live preview! It's a CMOS
> > sensor! Price is $1000. How big is the sensor? Is it the same size as
> > dSLRs?
>
> More or less - it's 21.5 x 14.4mm, while the 20D sensor is 22.5 x 15mm.
>
> Mark

So all new dSLR releases from Nikon/Minolta/Pentax will be 10MP CMOS
sensor based?

- Siddhartha

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

deryck lant wrote:
> The message <1126177496.980573.184190@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
> from "Siddhartha Jain" <reach.siddhartha@gmail.com> contains these words:
>
> > Mark B. wrote:
> > > "l e o" <someone@somewhere.net> wrote in message
> > > news:AsUTe.166$Ma.51@fe07.lga...
> > > >
> > > > You left out one important element that many people here, like David J
> > > > Taylor, are chasing after. The Sony R1 has live preview! It's a CMOS
> > > > sensor! Price is $1000. How big is the sensor? Is it the same size as
> > > > dSLRs?
> > >
> > > More or less - it's 21.5 x 14.4mm, while the 20D sensor is 22.5 x 15mm.
> > >
> > > Mark
>
> > So all new dSLR releases from Nikon/Minolta/Pentax will be 10MP CMOS
> > sensor based?
>
> No - not necessarily. This particular sensor is too small in area.
>
> High-end point and shoot cameras like the DSC-R1 will have this sensor.
> The picture making experience using the abysmal digital viewfinder on
> the DSC-R1 is not on the same planet as a mirror reflex DSLR viewfinder.
>
> Deryck

I am not talking about the DSC-R1 vs dSLRs. I am talking about the
sensor it uses. Its very marginally smaller than the Canon 20D sensor,
is CMOS and supports ISO from 100-3200. Pretty much what
Nikon/Pentax/Minolta would want for their future dSLR models.

- Siddhartha

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

The message <1126184714.200873.171790@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
from "Siddhartha Jain" <reach.siddhartha@gmail.com> contains these words:

> deryck lant wrote:
> > The message <1126177496.980573.184190@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
> > from "Siddhartha Jain" <reach.siddhartha@gmail.com> contains these words:
> >
> > > Mark B. wrote:
> > > > "l e o" <someone@somewhere.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:AsUTe.166$Ma.51@fe07.lga...
> > > > >
> > > > > You left out one important element that many people here, like
> > > > > David J
> > > > > Taylor, are chasing after. The Sony R1 has live preview! It's a CMOS
> > > > > sensor! Price is $1000. How big is the sensor? Is it the same
> > > > > size as
> > > > > dSLRs?
> > > >
> > > > More or less - it's 21.5 x 14.4mm, while the 20D sensor is 22.5
> > > > x 15mm.
> > > >
> > > > Mark
> >
> > > So all new dSLR releases from Nikon/Minolta/Pentax will be 10MP CMOS
> > > sensor based?
> >
> > No - not necessarily. This particular sensor is too small in area.
> >
> > High-end point and shoot cameras like the DSC-R1 will have this sensor.
> > The picture making experience using the abysmal digital viewfinder on
> > the DSC-R1 is not on the same planet as a mirror reflex DSLR viewfinder.
> >
> > Deryck

> I am not talking about the DSC-R1 vs dSLRs. I am talking about the
> sensor it uses. Its very marginally smaller than the Canon 20D sensor,
> is CMOS and supports ISO from 100-3200. Pretty much what
> Nikon/Pentax/Minolta would want for their future dSLR models.

Nikon and Pentax use a larger sensor than the APS-C Canon at 23.7x15.6mm.
The DSC-R1 sensor is 21.5x14.4mm. Nikon keep to a standard and must not
be confused with Canon.

Deryck

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <eXYTe.19855$sw6.8850@fed1read05>, shadowcatcher@cox.net
says...
>
> "deryck lant" <deryck@deryck.com> wrote in message
> news:3130303031383935432016B477@deryck.com...
> > http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/
> >
> > New class of camera
> > 10 Meg APS sized sensor
> > 3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
> > 24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
> > ISO 160-3200
> > 2 inch LCD
> > 995 grams inc battery
> > 995 USD
> >
> > Deryck
>
> Kinda hefty, ain't it? Compare to the RebelXT/350D, at 540g, add a 17-85 IS
> lens at 475g, and you've got 8mp at 1015g and a large potential selection of
> lenses vs. 10mp, 995g and one lens...ok, and "live preview."
>
>

Skip, you should have figured out by now, people that are interested in
the new Sony aren't looking for a DSLR. They are looking for a
"better" camera WITHOUT moving into the DSLR camp.

Some of us who have moved up to a DSLR still use cameras that arent
DSLRs, and some, like myself, wouldnt mind having a non-dslr that can do
low light and not be full of noise.


--
Larry Lynch
Mystic, Ct.

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Skip M wrote:

> Kinda hefty, ain't it? Compare to the RebelXT/350D, at 540g, add a 17-85 IS
> lens at 475g, and you've got 8mp at 1015g and a large potential selection of
> lenses vs. 10mp, 995g and one lens...ok, and "live preview."

You get 10mp, 995g, one lens, and _discreetness_. Deryck wrote about
shooting theater performances here, I wrote about shooting classical
guitar concerts in rec.photo.zlr. If you like to do such things, it is
a camera with unique capabilities. (Would be even better with IS,
though).

And wouldn't a really discreet camera with high dynamic range come in
extremely handy in some parts of wedding shootings? (I know you do such
stuff, so I'm really curious about your opinion.)

Plus "live preview" means the possibility reliably to frame shots
witout having your eye at the eyepiece. Again, this, together with the
sensitivity of the sensor, makes shots possible that were not possible
previously.

Such a camera could never be my only camera. OTOH, it would complement
my Panasonic FZ20 nicely - as long as I'm prepared to pay twice as much
for the complemet camera as for the original one. For people who care
about discreet indoor shooting, and OTOH don't care about shooting
birds and butterflies, it might do well as the only camera.

And wouldn't it actually have its place in the professional arsenal of
a pro who needs to be discreet in situations where they can't back off
indefinitely? Like inside the church at weddings.

I might be wrong; it's you who are the pro, not I. But I would at least
imagine that discreetness might have enough commercial value to justify
the camera for some pros, until being explicitely told otherwise.

Jan Böhme

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Bill Tuthill wrote:
> papenfussDIESPAM@juneaudotmedotvt.edu wrote:
>
>>Which, to me, begs the question of why bother with such a camera.
>>Comparing to a low-mid DSLR of the same price, I see these advantages:
>>
>>- No noise from mirror coming up
>>- Pivotable LCD screen
>>- No dust on sensor
>>- Potential "movie" mode
>>
>>... with the big disadvantages of
>>
>>- No interchangable lenses
>>- Not appreciably smaller than a DSLR
>>- Lower quality viewfinder than actual mirror/ground glass
>
>
> Good analysis.
>
> Add these disadvantages:
>
> - memory stick
> - lens limited to 120mm, useless for telephoto
> - slow f/4.8 where it matters most
> - high pricetag, well over $1000 with enough memory
> - heavy at almost 1000 grams
> - only 2" LCD
>
> I'm gonna go out on a limb and predict it will be about as successful
> as the Olympus E-1 and E-300, i.e. not.


It can use CF, from the photo. It is certainly not competing with dSLRs.
It's meant for high end prosumer users who want quality over gadget
features. As for the fixed lens, it's alright. Because of the larger
sensor, the lens possibly won't have any drastic improvments in the
later versions either. It's all come down to weight, size and cost and
this seems to be a good compromise. However, it should include IS in the
next version. People who really like photography would get a dSLR with
optical viewfinder anyway, and especially at $1000, they certainly want
to be able to change the lens!

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"deryck lant" <deryck@deryck.com> wrote in message
news:3130303031383935432016B477@deryck.com...
> http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/
>
> New class of camera
> 10 Meg APS sized sensor
> 3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
> 24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
> ISO 160-3200
> 2 inch LCD
> 995 grams inc battery
> 995 USD
>
> Deryck

I think the point that is being missed is this- the usage of an APS-sized
sensor in a non-SLR digital is setting a huge precedent. Sony are making a
pretty big leap into the unknown here, assuming that bridge-camera buyers
will know (or care) the difference between a camera with an acne-size sensor
and an APS-size sensor. If they are successful, fingers crossed more mfgrs
will follow suit- i'd love to see Leica, Ricoh, Olympus and so forth coming
out with digital versions of their film compacts, with high quality fixed or
small-zoom lenses with bright max apertures, and APS size sensors (or even
4/3rds).

A while ago I predicted that this kind of thing would take a slowing of pace
in digital progress- after all, Leica alone should have learned from getting
their fingers' burnt by introducing such high-cost, expensive "prestige"
cameras into a market where they were guaranteed technological obsolescence
within months (D-Lux, anyone?). On the one hand, I think it'd be hard to
convince any intelligent prosumer they need more than 10mp (however the
phrases "intelligent" and "prosumer" aren't always synonymous) but on the
other, i'd hardly call the digital market stable, nor would I say Sony are
past their stage of constant product replacement (how many T1 iterations do
they need??)

Martin

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

The message <dfptis$m1a$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
from "Martin Francis" <mcsalty@hotmail.com> contains these words:


> "deryck lant" <deryck@deryck.com> wrote in message
> news:3130303031383935432016B477@deryck.com...
> > http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/
> >
> > New class of camera
> > 10 Meg APS sized sensor
> > 3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
> > 24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
> > ISO 160-3200
> > 2 inch LCD
> > 995 grams inc battery
> > 995 USD
> >
> > Deryck

> I think the point that is being missed is this- the usage of an APS-sized
> sensor in a non-SLR digital is setting a huge precedent. Sony are making a
> pretty big leap into the unknown here, assuming that bridge-camera buyers
> will know (or care) the difference between a camera with an acne-size
> sensor
> and an APS-size sensor. If they are successful, fingers crossed more mfgrs
> will follow suit- i'd love to see Leica, Ricoh, Olympus and so forth coming
> out with digital versions of their film compacts, with high quality
> fixed or
> small-zoom lenses with bright max apertures, and APS size sensors (or even
> 4/3rds).

I am absolutely sure you are right. The Ricoh GR would be a prime candidate
for the ultimate compact digital camera. One that thousands of professionals
would keep in the pocket at all times.

The Ricoh would be available in versions with different high quality
prime lenses
giving the equivalent of 21mm, 28mm or 35mm. I can't wait!

> A while ago I predicted that this kind of thing would take a slowing
> of pace
> in digital progress- after all, Leica alone should have learned from
> getting
> their fingers' burnt by introducing such high-cost, expensive "prestige"
> cameras into a market where they were guaranteed technological obsolescence
> within months (D-Lux, anyone?). On the one hand, I think it'd be hard to
> convince any intelligent prosumer they need more than 10mp (however the
> phrases "intelligent" and "prosumer" aren't always synonymous) but on the
> other, i'd hardly call the digital market stable, nor would I say Sony are
> past their stage of constant product replacement (how many T1 iterations do
> they need??)

I agree that 10mp will be a constant in many manufacturers product line.

Deryck

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

David J. Littleboy wrote:
> "Larry Lynch" <larrylynch3rd@comcast.dotnet> wrote:
>>
>> Some of us who have moved up to a DSLR still use cameras that arent
>> DSLRs, and some, like myself, wouldnt mind having a non-dslr that
>> can do low light and not be full of noise.
>
> That lens is awfully slow anywhere other than wide

Compared to some of the f/5.6 DSLR "kit lenses"?

> , and I'll bet that
> when the tests come in, the Canon dSLRs will all be found to be at
> least a stop more sensitive for the same noise. So a 350D + 50/1.8
> +85/1.8 would be a far better low-light setup. Or 350D + Tamron
> 28-75/2.8, if you prefer a zoom.
> The silence during use is nice, though.

I will await the test results, David. Canon were into CMOS earlier so
perhaps they have a more sensitive chip. When the price comes down from
the "introductory" (i.e. expensive) level, the camera could prove popular
with many users.

David

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

> New class of camera
> 10 Meg APS sized sensor
> 3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
> 24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
> ISO 160-3200
> 2 inch LCD
> 995 grams inc battery
> 995 USD
>
> Deryck

My dream camera:
12x zoom lens with IS (like the Canon S2) with a large sensor like this
Sony.

How bulky would such a beast be?

Malcolm

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 19:31:52 GMT, Leonard wrote:

> What's the battery life like when it has to drive an EVF and that big
> sensor all the time?

That shouldn't be a big drag on battery life if the camera is well
designed. Without using the flash, but with either the EVF or the
LCD always on, my Fuji can take more than 800 shots from a single
set of alkaline batteries, and that includes much zooming and
focusing (but auto-focus was disabled). If the part of the lens
that must be moved is much larger than mine (and it probably is) and
a powerful motor is used for quick response, it could shorten
battery life. But I think most people would welcome that tradeoff
as long as battery life is kept reasonably long.

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

The message <Ik0Ue.7445$Aa1.2819@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net>
from Leonard <user@example.net> contains these words:

> Martin Francis wrote:

> > I think the point that is being missed is this- the usage of an APS-sized
> > sensor in a non-SLR digital is setting a huge precedent.

> Well there's the Epson digital rangefinder, but that's not exactly
> mainstream.

> I agree, it's a big step for Sony, and it's fascinating. I'm looking
> forward to finding out:

> How good is it for high-ISO performance - how much of a hit does it
> take from having the extra live-preview circuitry?

Should make no difference whatsoever - separate amplifier circuitry
used for viewfinder and LCD feed. Nice bright viewing in near-dark conditions.
Extra year of development since the D2X sensor should ensure even better high
ISO performance.

> What's the battery life like when it has to drive an EVF and that big
> sensor all the time?

Sony state 500 exposures. The EVF and CCD will be switchable.

> How about wide-angle performance? Look at the vignetting demos for
> wideangles on the RD-1 at Luminous Landscape for an idea of the
> problems that can occur with even quite expensive non-zoom lenses
> when they have glass close to the sensor.

The RD-1 uses standard 35mm lenses. The Zeiss Sonnar lens on the DSC-R1
will have been specially designed for use with digital. The Zeiss lens
made for an earlier Sony 717 model was an outstanding optic and light
years ahead of anything else in its class. The resolution was ahead of
some DSLR cameras at the time.

> But mainly:

> Will they sell lots?

You bet.

> and

> Will it be a step towards compact large-sensor cameras? I'll have
> a digital IXUS L-1, thanks.

I think there will be a avalanche of compact APS-C digital cameras in the
coming 12 months. They will be all the rage at PMA February 2006.


> One thing that Sony appear to have omitted is some sort of
> secondary LCD that would allow setting of various things
> while leaving the main display in its stowed position.
> I suppose that once you've learned the controls you could
> do it all in the EVF.

The EVF will have the same information displayed as the LCD. And will
be, of course, more easily viewable in bright light.

Deryck

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

The message <9B0Ue.5022$zw1.1236@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>
from Leonard <user@example.net> contains these words:

> David J Taylor wrote:
> > When the price comes down from the "introductory" (i.e. expensive)
> > level, the camera could prove popular with many users.

> I've heard that lots of SLR buyers never buy another lens other
> than the one that comes in the kit. I'd have thought that the R1
> or potential other cameras like it could be very popular with
> that sort of person. If you _are_ only going to have one lens
> in your life, a 24-120 isn't such a bad range.

> Is there actually a 'normal' zoom available for any other dcam
> that goes as wide as 24? (Short of getting a 1D that is)

The Nikkor 17-55mm gives the equivalent to 25.5-82.5mm. Several
other normal zooms give the equivalent of 27mm at the wide end.

Deryck

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"deryck lant" <deryck@deryck.com> wrote in message
news:3130303031383935432016B477@deryck.com...
> http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/
>
> New class of camera
> 10 Meg APS sized sensor
> 3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
> 24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
> ISO 160-3200
> 2 inch LCD
> 995 grams inc battery
> 995 USD
>
> Deryck

One area of concern for me is the sensor. If it supports live preview, it is
likely an interline transfer type sensor. To provide video like frame rates,
these sensors have more electronic components on the chip at each sensor
site. This means each sensor well is smaller than the sensors used on the
dSLRs. I'd expect noise performance is not up to the dSLRs, but should be
close. It will be interesting to see.

I'm glad to see this move. Hopefully they will have cameras the size of the
original APS Elph Canons with a larger sensor in a 3x zoom. The small
sensors always had a digital look to me, while the dslrs gave a more smooth,
natural image.

John

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

JohnR66 wrote:
> "deryck lant" <deryck@deryck.com> wrote in message
> news:3130303031383935432016B477@deryck.com...
>
>>http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/
>>
>>New class of camera
>>10 Meg APS sized sensor
>>3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
>>24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
>>ISO 160-3200
>>2 inch LCD
>>995 grams inc battery
>>995 USD
>>
>>Deryck
>
>
> One area of concern for me is the sensor. If it supports live preview, it is
> likely an interline transfer type sensor. To provide video like frame rates,
> these sensors have more electronic components on the chip at each sensor
> site. This means each sensor well is smaller than the sensors used on the
> dSLRs. I'd expect noise performance is not up to the dSLRs, but should be
> close. It will be interesting to see.
>
> I'm glad to see this move. Hopefully they will have cameras the size of the
> original APS Elph Canons with a larger sensor in a 3x zoom. The small
> sensors always had a digital look to me, while the dslrs gave a more smooth,
> natural image.
>
> John


I had not thought about that. I wonder how would it affect the low light
performance. um... No wonder Sony didn't make it the same size as other
1.5x APS-C, as it won't be used on the dSLR cameras. nevertheless, it'a
big upgrade from many P&S.

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Thu, 8 Sep 2005 10:47:16 +0100, deryck lant <deryck@deryck.com>
wrote:

>http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/
>
>New class of camera
>10 Meg APS sized sensor
>3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
>24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
>ISO 160-3200
>2 inch LCD
>995 grams inc battery
>995 USD
>
>Deryck

With all due credit to Olympus for the basic body design.
But it's interesting that this is the first non-DSLR that
has a large sensor.
-Rich

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Leonard" <user@example.net> wrote in message
news:9B0Ue.5022$zw1.1236@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
> David J Taylor wrote:
>> When the price comes down from the "introductory" (i.e. expensive)
>> level, the camera could prove popular with many users.
>
> I've heard that lots of SLR buyers never buy another lens other
> than the one that comes in the kit. I'd have thought that the R1
> or potential other cameras like it could be very popular with
> that sort of person. If you _are_ only going to have one lens
> in your life, a 24-120 isn't such a bad range.
>
> Is there actually a 'normal' zoom available for any other dcam
> that goes as wide as 24? (Short of getting a 1D that is)
>
> - Len

Canon 10-22, for one, Nikon, Sigma and Tamron make zoom lenses that are in
the 12mm range at the wide end. Not to mention Oly's offerings at 8mm and
10mm at the wide end.

--
Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <dfpkaq$93u$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>,
papenfussDIESPAM@juneauDOTmeDOTvt.edu says...

> Which, to me, begs the question of why bother with such a camera.

Live preview
--

Alfred Molon
------------------------------
Olympus 4040, 5050, 5060, 7070, 8080, E300 forum at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
Olympus E300 resource - http://myolympus.org/E300/

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

David J. Littleboy wrote:
> "David J Taylor"
>> David J. Littleboy wrote:
>>> "Larry Lynch" <larrylynch3rd@comcast.dotnet> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Some of us who have moved up to a DSLR still use cameras that arent
>>>> DSLRs, and some, like myself, wouldnt mind having a non-dslr that
>>>> can do low light and not be full of noise.
>>>
>>> That lens is awfully slow anywhere other than wide
>>
>> Compared to some of the f/5.6 DSLR "kit lenses"?
>
> Compared to the 50/1.8 or 85/1.8. The 50/1.8 is a decent portrait lens
> that's practically free ($79.95), the 85/1.8 gives you more reach
> than the R1.
>
> You aren't stuck with what you first get with a dSLR; you buy a
> special purpose lenses that do the specific one or two things you
> want to do, instead of being stuck with one lens that does everything
> badly.

No, but now you're not comparing like with like. Anyone buying a DSLR
with just a 50mm f/1.8 lens doesn't get the zoom. Multiple lenses are
required.

>> When the price comes down from the "introductory" (i.e. expensive)
>> level, the camera could prove popular with many users.
>
> But the price can't come down. Since it's a faster lens than the
> cheap kit lenses, there's nowhere to compromise.
>
> David J. Littleboy
> Tokyo, Japan

I'm missing your point here. The price on the Sony is $999 today. I
would be amazed if it were still $999 the time next year, or even in six
month's time. Of course the price can come down.

David

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"David J Taylor":
> David J. Littleboy wrote:
>> "David J Taylor"
>>> David J. Littleboy wrote:
>>>> "Larry Lynch" <larrylynch3rd@comcast.dotnet> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Some of us who have moved up to a DSLR still use cameras that arent
>>>>> DSLRs, and some, like myself, wouldnt mind having a non-dslr that
>>>>> can do low light and not be full of noise.
>>>>
>>>> That lens is awfully slow anywhere other than wide
>>>
>>> Compared to some of the f/5.6 DSLR "kit lenses"?
>>
>> Compared to the 50/1.8 or 85/1.8. The 50/1.8 is a decent portrait lens
>> that's practically free ($79.95), the 85/1.8 gives you more reach
>> than the R1.
>>
>> You aren't stuck with what you first get with a dSLR; you buy a
>> special purpose lenses that do the specific one or two things you
>> want to do, instead of being stuck with one lens that does everything
>> badly.
>
> No, but now you're not comparing like with like. Anyone buying a DSLR
> with just a 50mm f/1.8 lens doesn't get the zoom. Multiple lenses are
> required.

Nobody buys a dSLR with just the 50/1.8. Stop being ridiculous. You buy the
dSLR with a kit lens for daytime outdoor and flash work, and pick up a
couple of fast primes (or a fast zoom) for available light work. By the way,
the 300D with the 50/1.4 is seriously amazing at ISO 1600: it captures and
renders colors and details one's eyes can't even see (since human color
vision doesn't work in low light), handheld at 1/30. By comparison, the R1's
not going to be even close.

(With the smaller pixels, the R1 is very likely to be a full stop worse than
the 350D, so even with just the kit lens, you're better off with the 350D
than the R1.)

Handicapping the dSLR because you can't change lenses on the R1 is silly:
the advantage of the dSLR is that you can change lenses. Special purpose
tools always do a better job than general purpose tools.

Years ago, I had a _great_ idea for the F727: if the lens/sensor assembly
bayonetted into a socket in the stump of the hinge, then Sony could make
interchangeable lens/sensor assemblies in which each lens had it's own
sensor, and the body just consisted of the hinge + grip and LCD and EVF and
the like. All the advantages of a P&S and interchangeable lenses too.

Cool, no???

But I forgot to tell Sony. Oops.

>>> When the price comes down from the "introductory" (i.e. expensive)
>>> level, the camera could prove popular with many users.
>>
>> But the price can't come down. Since it's a faster lens than the
>> cheap kit lenses, there's nowhere to compromise.
>
> I'm missing your point here. The price on the Sony is $999 today. I
> would be amazed if it were still $999 the time next year, or even in six
> month's time. Of course the price can come down.

It can't come down a lot. It's never going to be an under US$500 camera,
it's always going to be a heavier, more expensive camera than the low-end
dSLRs.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

David J. Littleboy wrote:
[]
> Nobody buys a dSLR with just the 50/1.8. Stop being ridiculous.

It was you who commented that the supplied lens was slow at f/4.8. I
merely said that was not dissimilar to some of the DSLR kit lens. IIRC,
the very first film SLR I got did only have a 50mm f/1.8 lens! That /was/
a long time ago, though!

[]
>> I'm missing your point here. The price on the Sony is $999 today. I
>> would be amazed if it were still $999 the time next year, or even in
>> six month's time. Of course the price can come down.
>
> It can't come down a lot. It's never going to be an under US$500
> camera, it's always going to be a heavier, more expensive camera than
> the low-end dSLRs.

I see no reason why the Sony should be significantly heavier than a
similarly equipped DSLR - the extra viewfinder and electronics
approximately compensating for the mirror, lens mount and other gubbins.
As to price, let's wait and see. DSLRs should be cheaper than they are
right now as they use many components from existing film designs, the cost
of development of which will have been written off long ago.

David

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Rich wrote:

> With all due credit to Olympus for the basic body design.
> But it's interesting that this is the first non-DSLR that
> has a large sensor.
> -Rich

Huh? What? Olympus? Did I miss something here?

Gary Eickmeier