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New Sony DSC-R1 APS Sized 10 Meg Camera

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Anonymous
September 8, 2005 2:47:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/

New class of camera
10 Meg APS sized sensor
3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
ISO 160-3200
2 inch LCD
995 grams inc battery
995 USD

Deryck
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 2:47:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Mark B. wrote:
> "l e o" <someone@somewhere.net> wrote in message
> news:AsUTe.166$Ma.51@fe07.lga...
> >
> > You left out one important element that many people here, like David J
> > Taylor, are chasing after. The Sony R1 has live preview! It's a CMOS
> > sensor! Price is $1000. How big is the sensor? Is it the same size as
> > dSLRs?
>
> More or less - it's 21.5 x 14.4mm, while the 20D sensor is 22.5 x 15mm.
>
> Mark

So all new dSLR releases from Nikon/Minolta/Pentax will be 10MP CMOS
sensor based?

- Siddhartha
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 2:47:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

deryck lant wrote:
> The message <1126177496.980573.184190@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
> from "Siddhartha Jain" <reach.siddhartha@gmail.com> contains these words:
>
> > Mark B. wrote:
> > > "l e o" <someone@somewhere.net> wrote in message
> > > news:AsUTe.166$Ma.51@fe07.lga...
> > > >
> > > > You left out one important element that many people here, like David J
> > > > Taylor, are chasing after. The Sony R1 has live preview! It's a CMOS
> > > > sensor! Price is $1000. How big is the sensor? Is it the same size as
> > > > dSLRs?
> > >
> > > More or less - it's 21.5 x 14.4mm, while the 20D sensor is 22.5 x 15mm.
> > >
> > > Mark
>
> > So all new dSLR releases from Nikon/Minolta/Pentax will be 10MP CMOS
> > sensor based?
>
> No - not necessarily. This particular sensor is too small in area.
>
> High-end point and shoot cameras like the DSC-R1 will have this sensor.
> The picture making experience using the abysmal digital viewfinder on
> the DSC-R1 is not on the same planet as a mirror reflex DSLR viewfinder.
>
> Deryck

I am not talking about the DSC-R1 vs dSLRs. I am talking about the
sensor it uses. Its very marginally smaller than the Canon 20D sensor,
is CMOS and supports ISO from 100-3200. Pretty much what
Nikon/Pentax/Minolta would want for their future dSLR models.

- Siddhartha
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 2:47:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"deryck lant" <deryck@deryck.com> wrote in message
news:3130303031383935432016B477@deryck.com...
> http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/
>
> New class of camera
> 10 Meg APS sized sensor
> 3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
> 24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
> ISO 160-3200
> 2 inch LCD
> 995 grams inc battery
> 995 USD
>
> Deryck

Kinda hefty, ain't it? Compare to the RebelXT/350D, at 540g, add a 17-85 IS
lens at 475g, and you've got 8mp at 1015g and a large potential selection of
lenses vs. 10mp, 995g and one lens...ok, and "live preview."

--
Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 2:47:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Skip M wrote:

> Kinda hefty, ain't it? Compare to the RebelXT/350D, at 540g, add a 17-85 IS
> lens at 475g, and you've got 8mp at 1015g and a large potential selection of
> lenses vs. 10mp, 995g and one lens...ok, and "live preview."

You get 10mp, 995g, one lens, and _discreetness_. Deryck wrote about
shooting theater performances here, I wrote about shooting classical
guitar concerts in rec.photo.zlr. If you like to do such things, it is
a camera with unique capabilities. (Would be even better with IS,
though).

And wouldn't a really discreet camera with high dynamic range come in
extremely handy in some parts of wedding shootings? (I know you do such
stuff, so I'm really curious about your opinion.)

Plus "live preview" means the possibility reliably to frame shots
witout having your eye at the eyepiece. Again, this, together with the
sensitivity of the sensor, makes shots possible that were not possible
previously.

Such a camera could never be my only camera. OTOH, it would complement
my Panasonic FZ20 nicely - as long as I'm prepared to pay twice as much
for the complemet camera as for the original one. For people who care
about discreet indoor shooting, and OTOH don't care about shooting
birds and butterflies, it might do well as the only camera.

And wouldn't it actually have its place in the professional arsenal of
a pro who needs to be discreet in situations where they can't back off
indefinitely? Like inside the church at weddings.

I might be wrong; it's you who are the pro, not I. But I would at least
imagine that discreetness might have enough commercial value to justify
the camera for some pros, until being explicitely told otherwise.

Jan Böhme
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 2:47:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Siddhartha Jain wrote:
> deryck lant wrote:
>
>>The message <1126177496.980573.184190@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
>>from "Siddhartha Jain" <reach.siddhartha@gmail.com> contains these words:
>>
>>
>>>Mark B. wrote:
>>>
>>>>"l e o" <someone@somewhere.net> wrote in message
>>>>news:AsUTe.166$Ma.51@fe07.lga...
>>>>
>>>>>You left out one important element that many people here, like David J
>>>>>Taylor, are chasing after. The Sony R1 has live preview! It's a CMOS
>>>>>sensor! Price is $1000. How big is the sensor? Is it the same size as
>>>>>dSLRs?
>>>>
>>>>More or less - it's 21.5 x 14.4mm, while the 20D sensor is 22.5 x 15mm.
>>>>
>>>>Mark
>>
>>>So all new dSLR releases from Nikon/Minolta/Pentax will be 10MP CMOS
>>>sensor based?
>>
>>No - not necessarily. This particular sensor is too small in area.
>>
>>High-end point and shoot cameras like the DSC-R1 will have this sensor.
>>The picture making experience using the abysmal digital viewfinder on
>>the DSC-R1 is not on the same planet as a mirror reflex DSLR viewfinder.
>>
>>Deryck
>
>
> I am not talking about the DSC-R1 vs dSLRs. I am talking about the
> sensor it uses. Its very marginally smaller than the Canon 20D sensor,
> is CMOS and supports ISO from 100-3200. Pretty much what
> Nikon/Pentax/Minolta would want for their future dSLR models.
>
> - Siddhartha


It won't be this particular sensor. This is a tiny bit smaller than
350D, which in turn is smaller than those used in Nikon's. But you can
bet that there will be a 10 or even 12MP sensor for other dSLR
manufacturers, including Sony. What I like seeing about this R1 is the
price, in particular this 10MP sensor. The body is plastic though!
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 2:47:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

papenfussDIESPAM@juneaudotmedotvt.edu wrote:
>
> Which, to me, begs the question of why bother with such a camera.
> Comparing to a low-mid DSLR of the same price, I see these advantages:
>
> - No noise from mirror coming up
> - Pivotable LCD screen
> - No dust on sensor
> - Potential "movie" mode
>
> ... with the big disadvantages of
>
> - No interchangable lenses
> - Not appreciably smaller than a DSLR
> - Lower quality viewfinder than actual mirror/ground glass

Good analysis.

Add these disadvantages:

- memory stick
- lens limited to 120mm, useless for telephoto
- slow f/4.8 where it matters most
- high pricetag, well over $1000 with enough memory
- heavy at almost 1000 grams
- only 2" LCD

I'm gonna go out on a limb and predict it will be about as successful
as the Olympus E-1 and E-300, i.e. not.
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 3:08:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

The message <3130303031383935432016B477@deryck.com>
from deryck lant <deryck@deryck.com> contains these words:

> http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/

> New class of camera
> 10 Meg APS sized sensor
> 3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
> 24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
> ISO 160-3200
> 2 inch LCD
> 995 grams inc battery
> 995 USD

Forgot to add:

The silent low-light camera for live theatre performance

Deryck
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 3:08:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

deryck lant wrote:
> The message <3130303031383935432016B477@deryck.com>
> from deryck lant <deryck@deryck.com> contains these words:
>
>
>>http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/
>
>
>>New class of camera
>>10 Meg APS sized sensor
>>3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
>>24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
>>ISO 160-3200
>>2 inch LCD
>>995 grams inc battery
>>995 USD
>
>
> Forgot to add:
>
> The silent low-light camera for live theatre performance
>
> Deryck


You left out one important element that many people here, like David J
Taylor, are chasing after. The Sony R1 has live preview! It's a CMOS
sensor! Price is $1000. How big is the sensor? Is it the same size as dSLRs?
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 3:08:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <313030303138393543201BA700@deryck.com>, deryck@deryck.com
says...
> The message <3130303031383935432016B477@deryck.com>
> from deryck lant <deryck@deryck.com> contains these words:
>
> > http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/
>
> > New class of camera
> > 10 Meg APS sized sensor
> > 3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
> > 24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
> > ISO 160-3200
> > 2 inch LCD
> > 995 grams inc battery
> > 995 USD
>
> Forgot to add:
>
> The silent low-light camera for live theatre performance
>
> Deryck
>


Having used the 828 for a couple of horse show seasons, I whined for a
camera like it that would work in low light... Now they seem to have
built one.. All I gotta do is save my pennies to have one for next
season.

I'll still use my DSLR, but now it might get used less, and I might not
spend as much on lenses as I had planned.

Life is good.
--
Larry Lynch
Mystic, Ct.
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 3:08:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

l e o wrote:
> deryck lant wrote:
>
>> The message <3130303031383935432016B477@deryck.com>
>> from deryck lant <deryck@deryck.com> contains these words:
>>
>>
>>> http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/
>>
>>
>>
>>> New class of camera
>>> 10 Meg APS sized sensor
>>> 3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
>>> 24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
>>> ISO 160-3200
>>> 2 inch LCD
>>> 995 grams inc battery
>>> 995 USD
>>
>>
>>
>> Forgot to add:
>>
>> The silent low-light camera for live theatre performance
>>
>> Deryck
>
>
>
> You left out one important element that many people here, like David J
> Taylor, are chasing after. The Sony R1 has live preview! It's a CMOS
> sensor! Price is $1000. How big is the sensor? Is it the same size as
> dSLRs?


Nevermind, I found the answer at Sony site. The sensor is only a tiny,
tiny bit smaller than 350D.
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 3:08:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"l e o" <someone@somewhere.net> wrote in message
news:AsUTe.166$Ma.51@fe07.lga...
>
> You left out one important element that many people here, like David J
> Taylor, are chasing after. The Sony R1 has live preview! It's a CMOS
> sensor! Price is $1000. How big is the sensor? Is it the same size as
> dSLRs?

More or less - it's 21.5 x 14.4mm, while the 20D sensor is 22.5 x 15mm.

Mark
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 4:16:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <eXYTe.19855$sw6.8850@fed1read05>, shadowcatcher@cox.net
says...
>
> "deryck lant" <deryck@deryck.com> wrote in message
> news:3130303031383935432016B477@deryck.com...
> > http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/
> >
> > New class of camera
> > 10 Meg APS sized sensor
> > 3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
> > 24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
> > ISO 160-3200
> > 2 inch LCD
> > 995 grams inc battery
> > 995 USD
> >
> > Deryck
>
> Kinda hefty, ain't it? Compare to the RebelXT/350D, at 540g, add a 17-85 IS
> lens at 475g, and you've got 8mp at 1015g and a large potential selection of
> lenses vs. 10mp, 995g and one lens...ok, and "live preview."
>
>

Skip, you should have figured out by now, people that are interested in
the new Sony aren't looking for a DSLR. They are looking for a
"better" camera WITHOUT moving into the DSLR camp.

Some of us who have moved up to a DSLR still use cameras that arent
DSLRs, and some, like myself, wouldnt mind having a non-dslr that can do
low light and not be full of noise.


--
Larry Lynch
Mystic, Ct.
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 5:17:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Bill Tuthill wrote:
> papenfussDIESPAM@juneaudotmedotvt.edu wrote:
>
>>Which, to me, begs the question of why bother with such a camera.
>>Comparing to a low-mid DSLR of the same price, I see these advantages:
>>
>>- No noise from mirror coming up
>>- Pivotable LCD screen
>>- No dust on sensor
>>- Potential "movie" mode
>>
>>... with the big disadvantages of
>>
>>- No interchangable lenses
>>- Not appreciably smaller than a DSLR
>>- Lower quality viewfinder than actual mirror/ground glass
>
>
> Good analysis.
>
> Add these disadvantages:
>
> - memory stick
> - lens limited to 120mm, useless for telephoto
> - slow f/4.8 where it matters most
> - high pricetag, well over $1000 with enough memory
> - heavy at almost 1000 grams
> - only 2" LCD
>
> I'm gonna go out on a limb and predict it will be about as successful
> as the Olympus E-1 and E-300, i.e. not.


It can use CF, from the photo. It is certainly not competing with dSLRs.
It's meant for high end prosumer users who want quality over gadget
features. As for the fixed lens, it's alright. Because of the larger
sensor, the lens possibly won't have any drastic improvments in the
later versions either. It's all come down to weight, size and cost and
this seems to be a good compromise. However, it should include IS in the
next version. People who really like photography would get a dSLR with
optical viewfinder anyway, and especially at $1000, they certainly want
to be able to change the lens!
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 5:56:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

The message <1126177496.980573.184190@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
from "Siddhartha Jain" <reach.siddhartha@gmail.com> contains these words:

> Mark B. wrote:
> > "l e o" <someone@somewhere.net> wrote in message
> > news:AsUTe.166$Ma.51@fe07.lga...
> > >
> > > You left out one important element that many people here, like David J
> > > Taylor, are chasing after. The Sony R1 has live preview! It's a CMOS
> > > sensor! Price is $1000. How big is the sensor? Is it the same size as
> > > dSLRs?
> >
> > More or less - it's 21.5 x 14.4mm, while the 20D sensor is 22.5 x 15mm.
> >
> > Mark

> So all new dSLR releases from Nikon/Minolta/Pentax will be 10MP CMOS
> sensor based?

No - not necessarily. This particular sensor is too small in area.

High-end point and shoot cameras like the DSC-R1 will have this sensor.
The picture making experience using the abysmal digital viewfinder on
the DSC-R1 is not on the same planet as a mirror reflex DSLR viewfinder.

Deryck
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 6:35:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

The message <1126184714.200873.171790@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
from "Siddhartha Jain" <reach.siddhartha@gmail.com> contains these words:

> deryck lant wrote:
> > The message <1126177496.980573.184190@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
> > from "Siddhartha Jain" <reach.siddhartha@gmail.com> contains these words:
> >
> > > Mark B. wrote:
> > > > "l e o" <someone@somewhere.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:AsUTe.166$Ma.51@fe07.lga...
> > > > >
> > > > > You left out one important element that many people here, like
> > > > > David J
> > > > > Taylor, are chasing after. The Sony R1 has live preview! It's a CMOS
> > > > > sensor! Price is $1000. How big is the sensor? Is it the same
> > > > > size as
> > > > > dSLRs?
> > > >
> > > > More or less - it's 21.5 x 14.4mm, while the 20D sensor is 22.5
> > > > x 15mm.
> > > >
> > > > Mark
> >
> > > So all new dSLR releases from Nikon/Minolta/Pentax will be 10MP CMOS
> > > sensor based?
> >
> > No - not necessarily. This particular sensor is too small in area.
> >
> > High-end point and shoot cameras like the DSC-R1 will have this sensor.
> > The picture making experience using the abysmal digital viewfinder on
> > the DSC-R1 is not on the same planet as a mirror reflex DSLR viewfinder.
> >
> > Deryck

> I am not talking about the DSC-R1 vs dSLRs. I am talking about the
> sensor it uses. Its very marginally smaller than the Canon 20D sensor,
> is CMOS and supports ISO from 100-3200. Pretty much what
> Nikon/Pentax/Minolta would want for their future dSLR models.

Nikon and Pentax use a larger sensor than the APS-C Canon at 23.7x15.6mm.
The DSC-R1 sensor is 21.5x14.4mm. Nikon keep to a standard and must not
be confused with Canon.

Deryck
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 8:21:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <43206b77@news.meer.net>, can@spam.co says...
> Good analysis.
>
> Add these disadvantages:
>
> - memory stick
> - lens limited to 120mm, useless for telephoto
> - slow f/4.8 where it matters most
> - high pricetag, well over $1000 with enough memory
> - heavy at almost 1000 grams
> - only 2" LCD
>
> I'm gonna go out on a limb and predict it will be about as successful
> as the Olympus E-1 and E-300, i.e. not.
>

Memory stick AND cf I and II
--
Larry Lynch
Mystic, Ct.
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 8:28:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

papenfussDIESPAM@juneauDOTmeDOTvt.edu wrote:
[]
> Which, to me, begs the question of why bother with such a camera.
> Comparing to a low-mid range DSLR of the same price, I see these as
> advantages:
>
> - No noise from mirror coming up
> - Pivotable LCD screen
> - No dust on sensor
> - Potential "movie" mode

Plus:
- live histogram
- optical gain in the viewfinder for low light levels
- no mirror vibration

> ... with the big disadvantages of
>
> - No interchangable lenses

- two add-on lenses are offered

> - Not appreciably smaller than a DSLR
> - Lower quality viewfinder than actual mirror/ground glass

and

- heavy for a ZLR

I won't be upgrading just yet, but I credit Sony for breaking out of the
mould. It will be fascinating to see if this is a one-off failure, or the
start of a whole new range of cameras from the like of Nikon with the same
sensor!

David
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 9:33:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

l e o wrote:
[]
>People who really like photography
> would get a dSLR with optical viewfinder anyway, and especially at
> $1000, they certainly want to be able to change the lens!

You are making assumptions. Are you saying that anyone who chooses a ZLR
or point-and-shoot camera does not "really like photography"? Some of us,
who really like photography, may make different buying decisions to you,
and may not choose a DSLR. Sony have just increased our choice!

David
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 10:49:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"deryck lant" <deryck@deryck.com> wrote in message
news:3130303031383935432016B477@deryck.com...
> http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/
>
> New class of camera
> 10 Meg APS sized sensor
> 3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
> 24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
> ISO 160-3200
> 2 inch LCD
> 995 grams inc battery
> 995 USD
>
> Deryck

I think the point that is being missed is this- the usage of an APS-sized
sensor in a non-SLR digital is setting a huge precedent. Sony are making a
pretty big leap into the unknown here, assuming that bridge-camera buyers
will know (or care) the difference between a camera with an acne-size sensor
and an APS-size sensor. If they are successful, fingers crossed more mfgrs
will follow suit- i'd love to see Leica, Ricoh, Olympus and so forth coming
out with digital versions of their film compacts, with high quality fixed or
small-zoom lenses with bright max apertures, and APS size sensors (or even
4/3rds).

A while ago I predicted that this kind of thing would take a slowing of pace
in digital progress- after all, Leica alone should have learned from getting
their fingers' burnt by introducing such high-cost, expensive "prestige"
cameras into a market where they were guaranteed technological obsolescence
within months (D-Lux, anyone?). On the one hand, I think it'd be hard to
convince any intelligent prosumer they need more than 10mp (however the
phrases "intelligent" and "prosumer" aren't always synonymous) but on the
other, i'd hardly call the digital market stable, nor would I say Sony are
past their stage of constant product replacement (how many T1 iterations do
they need??)

Martin
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 10:52:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

The message <eXYTe.19855$sw6.8850@fed1read05>
from "Skip M" <shadowcatcher@cox.net> contains these words:


> "deryck lant" <deryck@deryck.com> wrote in message
> news:3130303031383935432016B477@deryck.com...
> > http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/
> >
> > New class of camera
> > 10 Meg APS sized sensor
> > 3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
> > 24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
> > ISO 160-3200
> > 2 inch LCD
> > 995 grams inc battery
> > 995 USD
> >
> > Deryck

> Kinda hefty, ain't it? Compare to the RebelXT/350D, at 540g, add a
> 17-85 IS
> lens at 475g, and you've got 8mp at 1015g and a large potential
> selection of
> lenses vs. 10mp, 995g and one lens...ok, and "live preview."

A dead silent low light camera could find a place in the camera bag. Fills
the same niche as my old 35mm Konica Hexar - which had a lovely f2 35mm lens
- and could not be heard a foot away.

I agree its hefty. The lens accounts for most of the weight. That lens might
be surprisingly good. No need for rectofocus design to allow for mirror
clearance. The Zeiss lens in the Sony 717 was outstandingly sharp, but was
not a very wide angle design.

Deryck
September 8, 2005 11:31:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Martin Francis wrote:

> I think the point that is being missed is this- the usage of an APS-sized
> sensor in a non-SLR digital is setting a huge precedent.

Well there's the Epson digital rangefinder, but that's not exactly
mainstream.

I agree, it's a big step for Sony, and it's fascinating. I'm looking
forward to finding out:

How good is it for high-ISO performance - how much of a hit does it
take from having the extra live-preview circuitry?

What's the battery life like when it has to drive an EVF and that big
sensor all the time?

How about wide-angle performance? Look at the vignetting demos for
wideangles on the RD-1 at Luminous Landscape for an idea of the
problems that can occur with even quite expensive non-zoom lenses
when they have glass close to the sensor.

But mainly:

Will they sell lots?

and

Will it be a step towards compact large-sensor cameras? I'll have
a digital IXUS L-1, thanks.


One thing that Sony appear to have omitted is some sort of
secondary LCD that would allow setting of various things
while leaving the main display in its stowed position.
I suppose that once you've learned the controls you could
do it all in the EVF.

- Len
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 11:31:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 19:31:52 GMT, Leonard wrote:

> What's the battery life like when it has to drive an EVF and that big
> sensor all the time?

That shouldn't be a big drag on battery life if the camera is well
designed. Without using the flash, but with either the EVF or the
LCD always on, my Fuji can take more than 800 shots from a single
set of alkaline batteries, and that includes much zooming and
focusing (but auto-focus was disabled). If the part of the lens
that must be moved is much larger than mine (and it probably is) and
a powerful motor is used for quick response, it could shorten
battery life. But I think most people would welcome that tradeoff
as long as battery life is kept reasonably long.
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 11:37:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

The message <dfptis$m1a$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
from "Martin Francis" <mcsalty@hotmail.com> contains these words:


> "deryck lant" <deryck@deryck.com> wrote in message
> news:3130303031383935432016B477@deryck.com...
> > http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/
> >
> > New class of camera
> > 10 Meg APS sized sensor
> > 3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
> > 24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
> > ISO 160-3200
> > 2 inch LCD
> > 995 grams inc battery
> > 995 USD
> >
> > Deryck

> I think the point that is being missed is this- the usage of an APS-sized
> sensor in a non-SLR digital is setting a huge precedent. Sony are making a
> pretty big leap into the unknown here, assuming that bridge-camera buyers
> will know (or care) the difference between a camera with an acne-size
> sensor
> and an APS-size sensor. If they are successful, fingers crossed more mfgrs
> will follow suit- i'd love to see Leica, Ricoh, Olympus and so forth coming
> out with digital versions of their film compacts, with high quality
> fixed or
> small-zoom lenses with bright max apertures, and APS size sensors (or even
> 4/3rds).

I am absolutely sure you are right. The Ricoh GR would be a prime candidate
for the ultimate compact digital camera. One that thousands of professionals
would keep in the pocket at all times.

The Ricoh would be available in versions with different high quality
prime lenses
giving the equivalent of 21mm, 28mm or 35mm. I can't wait!

> A while ago I predicted that this kind of thing would take a slowing
> of pace
> in digital progress- after all, Leica alone should have learned from
> getting
> their fingers' burnt by introducing such high-cost, expensive "prestige"
> cameras into a market where they were guaranteed technological obsolescence
> within months (D-Lux, anyone?). On the one hand, I think it'd be hard to
> convince any intelligent prosumer they need more than 10mp (however the
> phrases "intelligent" and "prosumer" aren't always synonymous) but on the
> other, i'd hardly call the digital market stable, nor would I say Sony are
> past their stage of constant product replacement (how many T1 iterations do
> they need??)

I agree that 10mp will be a constant in many manufacturers product line.

Deryck
September 9, 2005 1:04:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

On Thu, 8 Sep 2005 10:47:16 +0100, deryck lant <deryck@deryck.com>
wrote:

>http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/
>
>New class of camera
>10 Meg APS sized sensor
>3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
>24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
>ISO 160-3200
>2 inch LCD
>995 grams inc battery
>995 USD
>
>Deryck

With all due credit to Olympus for the basic body design.
But it's interesting that this is the first non-DSLR that
has a large sensor.
-Rich
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 1:11:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Larry Lynch" <larrylynch3rd@comcast.dotnet> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d8a2de9919f0fe39896a1@newsgroups.comcast.net...
> In article <eXYTe.19855$sw6.8850@fed1read05>, shadowcatcher@cox.net
> says...
>>
>> "deryck lant" <deryck@deryck.com> wrote in message
>> news:3130303031383935432016B477@deryck.com...
>> > http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/
>> >
>> > New class of camera
>> > 10 Meg APS sized sensor
>> > 3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR
>> > cameras)
>> > 24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
>> > ISO 160-3200
>> > 2 inch LCD
>> > 995 grams inc battery
>> > 995 USD
>> >
>> > Deryck
>>
>> Kinda hefty, ain't it? Compare to the RebelXT/350D, at 540g, add a 17-85
>> IS
>> lens at 475g, and you've got 8mp at 1015g and a large potential selection
>> of
>> lenses vs. 10mp, 995g and one lens...ok, and "live preview."
>>
>>
>
> Skip, you should have figured out by now, people that are interested in
> the new Sony aren't looking for a DSLR. They are looking for a
> "better" camera WITHOUT moving into the DSLR camp.
>
> Some of us who have moved up to a DSLR still use cameras that arent
> DSLRs, and some, like myself, wouldnt mind having a non-dslr that can do
> low light and not be full of noise.
>
>
> --
> Larry Lynch
> Mystic, Ct.

I've figured that out, but what I haven't figured out is "why?" I want a
camera that isn't a DSLR, too, but this one is too close in size and weight,
without the flexibility of an SLR. What I want in a non SLR type is small
size, low weight and a high zoom ratio, things lacking in an SLR design. If
you're going to pay a grand for the thing, lug around that much weight and
bulk, put up with a 24-120 zoom limit, and f4.8 at the long end, to boot,
why not just buy an SLR?
--
Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 1:24:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Jan Böhme" <jan.bohme@sh.se> wrote in message
news:1126197816.468289.323460@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Skip M wrote:

> Kinda hefty, ain't it? Compare to the RebelXT/350D, at 540g, add a 17-85
> IS
> lens at 475g, and you've got 8mp at 1015g and a large potential selection
> of
> lenses vs. 10mp, 995g and one lens...ok, and "live preview."

You get 10mp, 995g, one lens, and _discreetness_. Deryck wrote about
shooting theater performances here, I wrote about shooting classical
guitar concerts in rec.photo.zlr. If you like to do such things, it is
a camera with unique capabilities. (Would be even better with IS,
though).

It doesn't have IS? Well, that might not be a deal killer, but it certainly
inhibits things a bit. A 350D with a 17-85 IS comes to mind.

And wouldn't a really discreet camera with high dynamic range come in
extremely handy in some parts of wedding shootings? (I know you do such
stuff, so I'm really curious about your opinion.)

It remains to be seen what its dynamic range is, or its noise levels in low
light. Indeed, a little more silence from its shutter would be a nice
change from the 20D, though.

Plus "live preview" means the possibility reliably to frame shots
witout having your eye at the eyepiece. Again, this, together with the
sensitivity of the sensor, makes shots possible that were not possible
previously.

They're possible, just not easy. My wife, her cousin and I spent a day
shooting (goofing off, really) with our cameras held over our heads, to
practice getting shots that we could see, but could not bring our cameras to
bear on, looking through the eye piece. Live preview wouldn't have helped
even those. And I didn't see anything about a tilt out LCD, does the Sony
have one? That's the only time framing with the LCD gives an advantage over
a prism.

Such a camera could never be my only camera. OTOH, it would complement
my Panasonic FZ20 nicely - as long as I'm prepared to pay twice as much
for the complemet camera as for the original one. For people who care
about discreet indoor shooting, and OTOH don't care about shooting
birds and butterflies, it might do well as the only camera.

And wouldn't it actually have its place in the professional arsenal of
a pro who needs to be discreet in situations where they can't back off
indefinitely? Like inside the church at weddings.

Our shutter noise hasn't been obtrusive, and we've shot in many churches.
And with zooms in the range of the 70-200 f2.8, there's not really any place
we can't "back off" to. And if there is, there is always the 100-400, which
I have used to shoot from the organ loft of a couple of churches.

I might be wrong; it's you who are the pro, not I. But I would at least
imagine that discreetness might have enough commercial value to justify
the camera for some pros, until being explicitely told otherwise.

I can't speak for any others "pros," but it will be awhile before I find an
extra $1000US that can't find a better use than a silent camera. Because it
really has no other advantages, and some disadvantages, when compared to a
DSLR.

--
Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 1:24:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

The message <Ik0Ue.7445$Aa1.2819@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net>
from Leonard <user@example.net> contains these words:

> Martin Francis wrote:

> > I think the point that is being missed is this- the usage of an APS-sized
> > sensor in a non-SLR digital is setting a huge precedent.

> Well there's the Epson digital rangefinder, but that's not exactly
> mainstream.

> I agree, it's a big step for Sony, and it's fascinating. I'm looking
> forward to finding out:

> How good is it for high-ISO performance - how much of a hit does it
> take from having the extra live-preview circuitry?

Should make no difference whatsoever - separate amplifier circuitry
used for viewfinder and LCD feed. Nice bright viewing in near-dark conditions.
Extra year of development since the D2X sensor should ensure even better high
ISO performance.

> What's the battery life like when it has to drive an EVF and that big
> sensor all the time?

Sony state 500 exposures. The EVF and CCD will be switchable.

> How about wide-angle performance? Look at the vignetting demos for
> wideangles on the RD-1 at Luminous Landscape for an idea of the
> problems that can occur with even quite expensive non-zoom lenses
> when they have glass close to the sensor.

The RD-1 uses standard 35mm lenses. The Zeiss Sonnar lens on the DSC-R1
will have been specially designed for use with digital. The Zeiss lens
made for an earlier Sony 717 model was an outstanding optic and light
years ahead of anything else in its class. The resolution was ahead of
some DSLR cameras at the time.

> But mainly:

> Will they sell lots?

You bet.

> and

> Will it be a step towards compact large-sensor cameras? I'll have
> a digital IXUS L-1, thanks.

I think there will be a avalanche of compact APS-C digital cameras in the
coming 12 months. They will be all the rage at PMA February 2006.


> One thing that Sony appear to have omitted is some sort of
> secondary LCD that would allow setting of various things
> while leaving the main display in its stowed position.
> I suppose that once you've learned the controls you could
> do it all in the EVF.

The EVF will have the same information displayed as the LCD. And will
be, of course, more easily viewable in bright light.

Deryck
September 9, 2005 1:47:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

> New class of camera
> 10 Meg APS sized sensor
> 3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
> 24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
> ISO 160-3200
> 2 inch LCD
> 995 grams inc battery
> 995 USD
>
> Deryck

My dream camera:
12x zoom lens with IS (like the Canon S2) with a large sensor like this
Sony.

How bulky would such a beast be?

Malcolm
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 1:51:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

The message <k_6dnTqcrfNICL3eRVn-qA@is.co.za>
from "Malcolm" <nospam@nospam.com> contains these words:

> > New class of camera
> > 10 Meg APS sized sensor
> > 3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
> > 24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
> > ISO 160-3200
> > 2 inch LCD
> > 995 grams inc battery
> > 995 USD
> >
> > Deryck

> My dream camera:
> 12x zoom lens with IS (like the Canon S2) with a large sensor like this
> Sony.

> How bulky would such a beast be?

24-288mm equiv lens could be a beast if designed to be a no compromise
lens. If designed with the expertise and compromises regarding
distortion, etc.
of the Tamron 28-300mm or 18-200mm then it could be little larger than the
Sony DSC-R1. But the extra lens components plus sensors and motors etc.
for the IS would add to this.

Deryck
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 2:05:50 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"deryck lant" <deryck@deryck.com> wrote in message
news:3130303031383935432016B477@deryck.com...
> http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/
>
> New class of camera
> 10 Meg APS sized sensor
> 3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
> 24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
> ISO 160-3200
> 2 inch LCD
> 995 grams inc battery
> 995 USD
>
> Deryck

One area of concern for me is the sensor. If it supports live preview, it is
likely an interline transfer type sensor. To provide video like frame rates,
these sensors have more electronic components on the chip at each sensor
site. This means each sensor well is smaller than the sensors used on the
dSLRs. I'd expect noise performance is not up to the dSLRs, but should be
close. It will be interesting to see.

I'm glad to see this move. Hopefully they will have cameras the size of the
original APS Elph Canons with a larger sensor in a 3x zoom. The small
sensors always had a digital look to me, while the dslrs gave a more smooth,
natural image.

John
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 2:05:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

JohnR66 wrote:
> "deryck lant" <deryck@deryck.com> wrote in message
> news:3130303031383935432016B477@deryck.com...
>
>>http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/
>>
>>New class of camera
>>10 Meg APS sized sensor
>>3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
>>24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
>>ISO 160-3200
>>2 inch LCD
>>995 grams inc battery
>>995 USD
>>
>>Deryck
>
>
> One area of concern for me is the sensor. If it supports live preview, it is
> likely an interline transfer type sensor. To provide video like frame rates,
> these sensors have more electronic components on the chip at each sensor
> site. This means each sensor well is smaller than the sensors used on the
> dSLRs. I'd expect noise performance is not up to the dSLRs, but should be
> close. It will be interesting to see.
>
> I'm glad to see this move. Hopefully they will have cameras the size of the
> original APS Elph Canons with a larger sensor in a 3x zoom. The small
> sensors always had a digital look to me, while the dslrs gave a more smooth,
> natural image.
>
> John


I had not thought about that. I wonder how would it affect the low light
performance. um... No wonder Sony didn't make it the same size as other
1.5x APS-C, as it won't be used on the dSLR cameras. nevertheless, it'a
big upgrade from many P&S.
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 2:05:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

I wonder if it lock's up, or has a banding issue, or flash is too under
exposed like the Canon 20D.


"l e o" <someone@somewhere.net> wrote in message
news:VW3Ue.4596$O52.300@fe06.lga...
> JohnR66 wrote:
>> "deryck lant" <deryck@deryck.com> wrote in message
>> news:3130303031383935432016B477@deryck.com...
>>
>>>http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/
>>>
>>>New class of camera
>>>10 Meg APS sized sensor
>>>3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
>>>24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
>>>ISO 160-3200
>>>2 inch LCD
>>>995 grams inc battery
>>>995 USD
>>>
>>>Deryck
>>
>>
>> One area of concern for me is the sensor. If it supports live preview, it
>> is likely an interline transfer type sensor. To provide video like frame
>> rates, these sensors have more electronic components on the chip at each
>> sensor site. This means each sensor well is smaller than the sensors used
>> on the dSLRs. I'd expect noise performance is not up to the dSLRs, but
>> should be close. It will be interesting to see.
>>
>> I'm glad to see this move. Hopefully they will have cameras the size of
>> the original APS Elph Canons with a larger sensor in a 3x zoom. The small
>> sensors always had a digital look to me, while the dslrs gave a more
>> smooth, natural image.
>>
>> John
>
>
> I had not thought about that. I wonder how would it affect the low light
> performance. um... No wonder Sony didn't make it the same size as other
> 1.5x APS-C, as it won't be used on the dSLR cameras. nevertheless, it'a
> big upgrade from many P&S.
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 3:54:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.digital.rangefinder (More info?)

deryck lant <deryck@deryck.com> writes:
> http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscr1/
>
> New class of camera
> 10 Meg APS sized sensor
> 3fps for 3 frames (very small buffer will not compete with DSLR cameras)
> 24-120mm equiv Carl Zeiss lens f2.8-f4.8
> ISO 160-3200
> 2 inch LCD
> 995 grams inc battery
> 995 USD

This is almost my dream camera. The only things missing is IS,
and a longer (and faster!) tele. But i realize that 14.3-71.5 mm
(24-120 mm FOV equiv.) is about as good range as you can get from
a single lens without making too many compromises.

I wish somebody had the guts to build a /system/ around a
body like this (i.e. a quiet AF-camera with a large sensor
and great low-light performance that accepts interchangable
lenses).

So far, the seriously retro Epson R-D1 is the only game in that
town. But beside the price tag, I'd rather have AF than rangefinder
focusing. I love those great fixed focal length Zeiss and Leitz
lenses, but I'd like at least to have the option to use a zoom
now and then. A mirrorless /system camera/ with EVF and AF would
just be the ticket!
--
- gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://folk.uio.no/gisle/ ]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 8:04:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Larry Lynch" <larrylynch3rd@comcast.dotnet> wrote:
>
> Some of us who have moved up to a DSLR still use cameras that arent
> DSLRs, and some, like myself, wouldnt mind having a non-dslr that can do
> low light and not be full of noise.

That lens is awfully slow anywhere other than wide, and I'll bet that when
the tests come in, the Canon dSLRs will all be found to be at least a stop
more sensitive for the same noise. So a 350D + 50/1.8 +85/1.8 would be a far
better low-light setup. Or 350D + Tamron 28-75/2.8, if you prefer a zoom.

The silence during use is nice, though.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 8:04:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

David J. Littleboy wrote:
> "Larry Lynch" <larrylynch3rd@comcast.dotnet> wrote:
>>
>> Some of us who have moved up to a DSLR still use cameras that arent
>> DSLRs, and some, like myself, wouldnt mind having a non-dslr that
>> can do low light and not be full of noise.
>
> That lens is awfully slow anywhere other than wide

Compared to some of the f/5.6 DSLR "kit lenses"?

> , and I'll bet that
> when the tests come in, the Canon dSLRs will all be found to be at
> least a stop more sensitive for the same noise. So a 350D + 50/1.8
> +85/1.8 would be a far better low-light setup. Or 350D + Tamron
> 28-75/2.8, if you prefer a zoom.
> The silence during use is nice, though.

I will await the test results, David. Canon were into CMOS earlier so
perhaps they have a more sensitive chip. When the price comes down from
the "introductory" (i.e. expensive) level, the camera could prove popular
with many users.

David
September 9, 2005 8:04:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

David J Taylor wrote:
> When the price comes down from the "introductory" (i.e. expensive)
> level, the camera could prove popular with many users.

I've heard that lots of SLR buyers never buy another lens other
than the one that comes in the kit. I'd have thought that the R1
or potential other cameras like it could be very popular with
that sort of person. If you _are_ only going to have one lens
in your life, a 24-120 isn't such a bad range.

Is there actually a 'normal' zoom available for any other dcam
that goes as wide as 24? (Short of getting a 1D that is)

- Len
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 8:04:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

The message <9B0Ue.5022$zw1.1236@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>
from Leonard <user@example.net> contains these words:

> David J Taylor wrote:
> > When the price comes down from the "introductory" (i.e. expensive)
> > level, the camera could prove popular with many users.

> I've heard that lots of SLR buyers never buy another lens other
> than the one that comes in the kit. I'd have thought that the R1
> or potential other cameras like it could be very popular with
> that sort of person. If you _are_ only going to have one lens
> in your life, a 24-120 isn't such a bad range.

> Is there actually a 'normal' zoom available for any other dcam
> that goes as wide as 24? (Short of getting a 1D that is)

The Nikkor 17-55mm gives the equivalent to 25.5-82.5mm. Several
other normal zooms give the equivalent of 27mm at the wide end.

Deryck
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 8:04:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Leonard" <user@example.net> wrote in message
news:9B0Ue.5022$zw1.1236@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
> David J Taylor wrote:
>> When the price comes down from the "introductory" (i.e. expensive)
>> level, the camera could prove popular with many users.
>
> I've heard that lots of SLR buyers never buy another lens other
> than the one that comes in the kit. I'd have thought that the R1
> or potential other cameras like it could be very popular with
> that sort of person. If you _are_ only going to have one lens
> in your life, a 24-120 isn't such a bad range.
>
> Is there actually a 'normal' zoom available for any other dcam
> that goes as wide as 24? (Short of getting a 1D that is)
>
> - Len

Canon 10-22, for one, Nikon, Sigma and Tamron make zoom lenses that are in
the 12mm range at the wide end. Not to mention Oly's offerings at 8mm and
10mm at the wide end.

--
Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 9:45:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

The EVF experience I'm used to is that on the Minolta Dimage 7Hi.
To my way of thinking, an EVF should give you (pretty much) what the
photo will actually look like (live preview) and useful info (like a
live histogram and camera settings) and switchable grid lines/visual
guides.
Video cameras have an EVF, for precisely the same reasons and also
because most people who pick up a video camera can't (or don't)
previsualise what they can see through an optical VF will look like on
tape.
An EVF makes using a video camera a WYSIWYG experience and takes the
guesswork out of it.
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 10:31:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

YMMV, but hear is my "back of the napkin" workings:
The closest Canon EOS lens (in zoom range, at least) is the EF 28-105mm
f3.5-4.5 USM:
<http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/controller?act=ModelDe...;
It weighs 375g, so an EOS 350D (540g with battery and CF card) with
this lens should weigh 915g.
The Sony R1 weighs slightly more at 995g.
Sigma makes a lens that is slightly closer in zoom range, 24 to 135mm
f2.8-4.5 IF:
<http://www.sigma-photo.com/lenses/lenses_all_details.as...;
This lens weigh in at 530g , so a 350D equipped with it will weigh
1070g.
The Sony R1 weighs slightly less at 995g.
The lens on the R1 goes wider (the EOS and Sigma lenses both would have
a x1.6 crop factor to about 38mm fl on the 350D) and longer that the
EOS lens, but only wider than the Sigma lens.
The Zeiss lens on the R1 is faster at the long end than both the Canon
and the Sigma example lenses.
It is still pretty heavy compared to other "prosumer" EVF cameras.
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 12:06:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"David J Taylor"
> David J. Littleboy wrote:
>> "Larry Lynch" <larrylynch3rd@comcast.dotnet> wrote:
>>>
>>> Some of us who have moved up to a DSLR still use cameras that arent
>>> DSLRs, and some, like myself, wouldnt mind having a non-dslr that
>>> can do low light and not be full of noise.
>>
>> That lens is awfully slow anywhere other than wide
>
> Compared to some of the f/5.6 DSLR "kit lenses"?

Compared to the 50/1.8 or 85/1.8. The 50/1.8 is a decent portrait lens
that's practically free ($79.95), the 85/1.8 gives you more reach than the
R1.

You aren't stuck with what you first get with a dSLR; you buy a special
purpose lenses that do the specific one or two things you want to do,
instead of being stuck with one lens that does everything badly.

> When the price comes down from the "introductory" (i.e. expensive) level,
> the camera could prove popular with many users.

But the price can't come down. Since it's a faster lens than the cheap kit
lenses, there's nowhere to compromise.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 12:07:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

In article <dfpkaq$93u$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>,
papenfussDIESPAM@juneauDOTmeDOTvt.edu says...

> Which, to me, begs the question of why bother with such a camera.

Live preview
--

Alfred Molon
------------------------------
Olympus 4040, 5050, 5060, 7070, 8080, E300 forum at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
Olympus E300 resource - http://myolympus.org/E300/
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 12:31:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

David J. Littleboy wrote:
> "David J Taylor"
>> David J. Littleboy wrote:
>>> "Larry Lynch" <larrylynch3rd@comcast.dotnet> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Some of us who have moved up to a DSLR still use cameras that arent
>>>> DSLRs, and some, like myself, wouldnt mind having a non-dslr that
>>>> can do low light and not be full of noise.
>>>
>>> That lens is awfully slow anywhere other than wide
>>
>> Compared to some of the f/5.6 DSLR "kit lenses"?
>
> Compared to the 50/1.8 or 85/1.8. The 50/1.8 is a decent portrait lens
> that's practically free ($79.95), the 85/1.8 gives you more reach
> than the R1.
>
> You aren't stuck with what you first get with a dSLR; you buy a
> special purpose lenses that do the specific one or two things you
> want to do, instead of being stuck with one lens that does everything
> badly.

No, but now you're not comparing like with like. Anyone buying a DSLR
with just a 50mm f/1.8 lens doesn't get the zoom. Multiple lenses are
required.

>> When the price comes down from the "introductory" (i.e. expensive)
>> level, the camera could prove popular with many users.
>
> But the price can't come down. Since it's a faster lens than the
> cheap kit lenses, there's nowhere to compromise.
>
> David J. Littleboy
> Tokyo, Japan

I'm missing your point here. The price on the Sony is $999 today. I
would be amazed if it were still $999 the time next year, or even in six
month's time. Of course the price can come down.

David
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 12:41:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Martin Francis <mcsalty@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> A while ago I predicted that this kind of thing would take a slowing of pace
> in digital progress- after all, Leica alone should have learned from getting
> their fingers' burnt by introducing such high-cost, expensive "prestige"
> cameras into a market where they were guaranteed technological obsolescence
> within months (D-Lux, anyone?). On the one hand, I think it'd be hard to
> convince any intelligent prosumer they need more than 10mp (however the
> phrases "intelligent" and "prosumer" aren't always synonymous) but on the
> other, i'd hardly call the digital market stable, nor would I say Sony are
> past their stage of constant product replacement...

Good points, but I think the point of stability in the digital market
has been reached, almost. Once the Canon 5D is available, what more DSLR
would anybody ever need? You could quibble that the price must come down
and I would agree. But once there is a full-frame DSLR that accepts old
35mm lenses, what more could the industry give us that we would pay for?

The DSC-R1 does have CompactFlash memory slot, I was wrong about that.
But it still seems awfully big, awfully heavy, and awfully expensive
for something that offers so little flexibility.
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 12:45:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

Skip M wrote:
[]
> I've figured that out, but what I haven't figured out is "why?" I
> want a camera that isn't a DSLR, too, but this one is too close in
> size and weight, without the flexibility of an SLR. What I want in a
> non SLR type is small size, low weight and a high zoom ratio, things
> lacking in an SLR design. If you're going to pay a grand for the
> thing, lug around that much weight and bulk, put up with a 24-120
> zoom limit, and f4.8 at the long end, to boot, why not just buy an
> SLR?

- acoustic noise
- no movie mode
- dust when changing lenses


For me, the 24mm wide-angle is nice, but I prefer the more compact Nikon
Coolpix 8400. For the long telephoto, I certainly wouldn't want this
camera scaled up 3 times to make the 432mm focal length I can get from
the Panasonic FZ5 (which weighs a third of the Sony).

David
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 12:45:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"David J Taylor"
<david-taylor@blueyonder.co.not-this-bit.nor-this-part.uk.invalid> wrote in
message news:kYbUe.105294$G8.93729@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Skip M wrote:
> []
>> I've figured that out, but what I haven't figured out is "why?" I
>> want a camera that isn't a DSLR, too, but this one is too close in
>> size and weight, without the flexibility of an SLR. What I want in a
>> non SLR type is small size, low weight and a high zoom ratio, things
>> lacking in an SLR design. If you're going to pay a grand for the
>> thing, lug around that much weight and bulk, put up with a 24-120
>> zoom limit, and f4.8 at the long end, to boot, why not just buy an
>> SLR?
>
> - acoustic noise
> - no movie mode
> - dust when changing lenses

Shutter noise, you have a point, but if I want a movie mode, I'll use a
video cam, and at least with a DSLR, I have the option of changing lenses,
and I can always leave a 17-85 IS mounted, which gives the same range as the
Sony's lens, and has IS, to boot. Still looking for that "gotta have it"
factor in this camera, but it's still not there...

--
Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 1:07:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

The R1 has no movie mode and the F-828's laser holographic AF assist is
gone, too.

> - No noise from mirror coming up
> - Pivotable LCD screen
> - No dust on sensor
> - Potential "movie" mode

PS I have some pictures from the UK launch including the two massive
conversion lenses.

See:

http://dpnow.com/bb/news.pl/frames=n/read/44

Ian

Digital Photography Now
http://dpnow.com
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 1:46:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Skip M" <shadowcatcher@cox.net> writes:
> I've figured that out, but what I haven't figured out is "why?" I
> want a camera that isn't a DSLR, too, but this one is too close in
> size and weight, without the flexibility of an SLR. What I want in
> a non SLR type is small size, low weight and a high zoom ratio,
> things lacking in an SLR design. If you're going to pay a grand for
> the thing, lug around that much weight and bulk, put up with a
> 24-120 zoom limit, and f4.8 at the long end, to boot, why not just
> buy an SLR?

Because that damn mirror slap makes a (D)SLR improper in a number
of contexts (e.g. concerts, recitals, theatre, lectures). I've never
been accredited to shoot at Wimbledon All England Lawn Tennis Club,
but I've been told that anything louder than a Leica M-series is
banned.
--
- gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://folk.uio.no/gisle/ ]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 1:46:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital (More info?)

"Gisle Hannemyr" <gisle+news@ifi.uio.no> wrote in message
news:q5zmqmbs5b.fsf@nelja.ifi.uio.no...
> "Skip M" <shadowcatcher@cox.net> writes:
>> I've figured that out, but what I haven't figured out is "why?" I
>> want a camera that isn't a DSLR, too, but this one is too close in
>> size and weight, without the flexibility of an SLR. What I want in
>> a non SLR type is small size, low weight and a high zoom ratio,
>> things lacking in an SLR design. If you're going to pay a grand for
>> the thing, lug around that much weight and bulk, put up with a
>> 24-120 zoom limit, and f4.8 at the long end, to boot, why not just
>> buy an SLR?
>
> Because that damn mirror slap makes a (D)SLR improper in a number
> of contexts (e.g. concerts, recitals, theatre, lectures). I've never
> been accredited to shoot at Wimbledon All England Lawn Tennis Club,
> but I've been told that anything louder than a Leica M-series is
> banned.
> --
> - gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://folk.uio.no/gisle/ ]
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
That f4.8 at the long end pretty much puts paid to using it in low light
situations like concerts, recitals, theatre and lectures, since the use of
flash is more thoroughly frowned upon than a little shutter slap. I wonder
if Sports Illustrated has pulled their Leicas out of storage for Wimbledon?
I rather doubt it...

--
Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
!