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Article: Vista's Flaws Surface Again on Eve of Windows 7 Beta

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January 7, 2009 6:28:36 PM

Vista's Flaws Surface Again on Eve of Windows 7 Beta

Quote:
Attendees of the International Conference on Cyber Security 2009 in New York Tuesday were reminded of the shortcomings of Windows Vista a day before Microsoft is expected to reveal the first beta for its follow-up, Windows 7.

Microsoft Investigative Consultant Michael Dunner asked attendees how many of them have used Vista as he gave a presentation on the security differences between that OS and Windows 7.

When people in the audience raised their hands, Dunner then asked, "How many of you like it?" Only about half of those who acknowledged using Vista raised their hands.

Dunner also called Vista's User Account Control (UAC) feature "annoying" and one of its "biggest problems," to which one audience member responded, "Yes, it is annoying."


© 1998-2008, PC World Communications
January 7, 2009 6:38:35 PM

Wow another statement on how much Vista sucks, I just hope Winblows 7 isn't just Vista SP2. Also while I'm wishing, I wish they get rid of 32bit OS'es altogether or have more support for 64bit.
a b $ Windows 7
January 7, 2009 7:41:48 PM

Maybe I should place an ad an offer to teach people how use Vista Operating systems. I don't know, I just do not have a problem with Vista. User Acciunt Control is too tough for these people... I mean you must be kidding. The lady who cuts my hair is like in her 50's, enjoys music. family photos, web browsing and burning CDs, etc. She even has an external drive to keep all her music and photos on. She said UAC doesn't bother her at all! I loaded up a Vista 64 installation last night and it works flawlessy without one single solitary problem of any nature. Nada. I'm just saying.
January 7, 2009 7:59:18 PM

I like the Vista UAC. It keeps my kids from screwing up all 3 of my PC's. On-line banking/brokerage has a similar UI i.e. you get one last look before the transaction becomes final.
January 7, 2009 8:03:15 PM

badge, I totally agree.

I've been using Vista for almost 2 years and when I use an XP system it just feels old. I admit that me and Vista got off to a rocky start but it's solid and stable and I don't have a problem with it. People that complain about it are just those that are resistant to change or they may have heard it was bad or used it once and it didn't have the familiarity of their XP system so they didn't like it.

MS does need to do a better job of ironing out the wrinkles before release rather than waiting for a SP to fix their issues.

BTW: If you can't figure out how to turn UAC off, you need it.
a b $ Windows 7
January 7, 2009 8:09:30 PM

This poster disagrees with the article and the author's anti-vista perspective. So he has posted these links he feels are more "positive", whatever that means:

That Win 7 beta 1 will be available for MDC attendees:
http://blogs.msdn.com/benko/archive/2009/01/06/windows-...


Or that "Official" (non Torrented) bits could be availiable this week?
http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=1792


Or that it has some functionality that allows it to heal itself:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=3256


Or that Windows 7 build 7000 64-bit version hits torrent sites
http://arstechnica.com/journals/microsoft.ars/2009/01/0...

Moderator edit
January 7, 2009 8:14:43 PM

The article is what it is ... get over it, or ignore it.
a b $ Windows 7
January 7, 2009 8:14:51 PM

Vista is good for most everyone but IT IS STILL bloated!!! That's really what pisses me off is the bloatedness (more that any thing else, even UAC). Also +1 for needing better 64bit support (drivers esp).
January 7, 2009 8:17:30 PM

I'm pretty sure the biggest problem with Vista (as with most OS) is between the chair an the keyboard.

Except MacOS, in that particular case the problem is in the OS.
January 7, 2009 10:31:12 PM

SirCrono said:
I'm pretty sure the biggest problem with Vista (as with most OS) is between the chair an the keyboard.

Clearly, there are millions that would disagree with you - but you are entitled to that opinion.
January 7, 2009 11:14:01 PM

Jake_Barnes said:
Clearly, there are millions that would disagree with you - but you are entitled to that opinion.

Are those millions the problem ones? :kaola: 
January 8, 2009 12:01:53 AM

Ugh, most of the average consumers who hate vista bought a dell. Dell destroys their pcs with hammers that pound pure **** into your hdd before they ship them to you. The **** then proceeds to crash stable and working parts of vista with odd and unstable dell versions of things like the sidebar (and topbar, apparently). The solution, remove said **** through the control panel.

Deleted by Moderator
a b $ Windows 7
January 8, 2009 3:36:19 AM

Jake_Barnes said:
Clearly, there are millions that would disagree with you - but you are entitled to that opinion.


I believe those millions sit squarely between the chair and the keyboard :kaola: 
January 8, 2009 4:01:19 AM

ausch30 said:
badge, I totally agree.

I've been using Vista for almost 2 years and when I use an XP system it just feels old. I admit that me and Vista got off to a rocky start but it's solid and stable and I don't have a problem with it. People that complain about it are just those that are resistant to change or they may have heard it was bad or used it once and it didn't have the familiarity of their XP system so they didn't like it.

MS does need to do a better job of ironing out the wrinkles before release rather than waiting for a SP to fix their issues.

BTW: If you can't figure out how to turn UAC off, you need it.

i totally agree with you and badge. and that's so true if you dunno how to turn UAC off, you definitely definitely need it. the average user dont' really even know how to reformat a computer from start to finish, and just complain about one extra mouse click. they probably use norton anti-virus and think that is the best thing on earth and dunno why their comp is running so slow with bloated software from venders. (long runon)

and...vista? bloated? reallie? that wasn't sarcasm as i've been using it for over half a year now, and i don't notice a thing. i have my UAC on because it's so useful against backdoor entry programs that get around your system without you knowing it.

i don't really find it annoying to click "allow", because the extra security is worth it imo.

i love xp to death, i can't go back on it either b/c it does feel old...sadly. it sux that vista had bad press initially, SP1 was a miracle for it.
January 8, 2009 11:34:41 AM

aznguy0028 said:
i totally agree with you and badge. and that's so true if you dunno how to turn UAC off, you definitely definitely need it. the average user dont' really even know how to reformat a computer from start to finish, and just complain about one extra mouse click. they probably use norton anti-virus and think that is the best thing on earth and dunno why their comp is running so slow with bloated software from venders. (long runon)

and...vista? bloated? reallie? that wasn't sarcasm as i've been using it for over half a year now, and i don't notice a thing. i have my UAC on because it's so useful against backdoor entry programs that get around your system without you knowing it.

i don't really find it annoying to click "allow", because the extra security is worth it imo.

i love xp to death, i can't go back on it either b/c it does feel old...sadly. it sux that vista had bad press initially, SP1 was a miracle for it.


Right now my Vista x64 feels faster than my XP x86 has ever been (apart from in KOTOR ) and apart from the fact my audio kinda sux.
January 8, 2009 12:22:43 PM

I've been using Vista 64 for a little over 3 months now and I like it a lot. Like others have said if you bought a PC from Dell or and the likes surely the system is loaded with tons of useless software that just slows any system down.

The first thing I did after installing Vista was to turn off UAC ( I found out how to do it so I guess I don't need it :D  ) and after a little more tweaks, mostly the same ones I did in XP, my pc runs just fine with Vista !
January 8, 2009 12:28:33 PM

i have my UAC on because it's so useful against backdoor entry programs that get around your system without you knowing it. said:
i have my UAC on because it's so useful against backdoor entry programs that get around your system without you knowing it.


The only thing that really annoys me with Vista is that sometimes it doesn't allow me to delete folders off my desktop and I find it happens less often with UAC off.

Right now my Vista x64 feels faster than my XP x86 has ever been (apart from in KOTOR ) and apart from the fact my audio kinda sux. said:
Right now my Vista x64 feels faster than my XP x86 has ever been (apart from in KOTOR ) and apart from the fact my audio kinda sux.


Funny you say that because I'm almost finished with KOTOR 2 again. Saw it on the shelf a while back and decided it was time to play again. Older games do have a difficult time with Vista, I had to do some patches and work arounds to get it running correctly.

I've been using Vista 64 for a little over 3 months now and I like it a lot. Like others have said if you bought a PC from Dell or and the likes surely the system is loaded with tons of useless software that just slows any system down. said:
I've been using Vista 64 for a little over 3 months now and I like it a lot. Like others have said if you bought a PC from Dell or and the likes surely the system is loaded with tons of useless software that just slows any system down.


On my Toshiba laptop that came with Vista Home Premium I found something that would copy the activation then used my retail Home Premium disk to do a clean install then used the program again to activate.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=120228
a b $ Windows 7
January 8, 2009 12:31:05 PM

No matter what anyone says Vista was a step in the right direction.

A hardware accelerated desktop helps performance and generally makes windows look better(no page tearing on the desktop and a smother experience).

Supertetch like it or not uses ALL memory it can to preload apps you use often, this leads to faster program load times. There is NEVER been a point in having lots of memory to not use it all.

64-bit should be the future. So this is a better start then XP 64 was.

Vista tends to make better use of higher end hardware then XP did.

I have found countless features that DO make my daily computer use easier.

The biggest issue with Vista in the start was poor drivers from companies who had plenty of time to work on them but chose to not bother until release forced them to. Nvidia was a big culprit here, there 8800GTX drivers where still not that stable when the first SP came around. I personally did not get Vista until SP1 so i may have avoided a lot of bugs, but the same thing happened with XP.

The only games I could not get to run on Vista 64 are once that are either 16-bit or had 16-bit installers. Those games work great on my laptop anyway :p 
January 8, 2009 12:53:29 PM

aznguy0028 said:
they probably use norton anti-virus and think that is the best thing on earth and dunno why their comp is running so slow with bloated software from venders.


I got away from NAV several years ago because it was slow and buggy and unstable but I have to say the 2009 is very good. I read some good things about the Internet Security 2009 so I downloaded the trial and was very impressed, so much so that I bought it yesterday. I think the added pressure from One Care Live as well as products like Kaspersky, Trend Micro and Avast getting better and taking market share has caused them to really work on improving it.
Anonymous
a b $ Windows 7
January 8, 2009 1:41:00 PM

Agree w/ badge and the other pro-Vista guys out there. I think the source of most of the Vista flaming is that people forgot how much trouble it was to migrate from Win98 to XP because it was so long ago. (Yes, I'm skipping ME...) It's ALWAYS tough to migrate when hardware fabs drag their feet to get stable drivers out. It ALWAYS takes some getting used to a new GUI and tweaked file system. That shouldn't keep you from using new things.
Now, before the MacOS fans start coming out of the woodwork, Apple has a whole different way of doing things: baby-step updates that get new names instead of service-pack numbers. If MS named every service pack something sexy and claimed it was a new OS, maybe there would be less complaining. <shrug>
That being said, the bloatware has got to go. If MS would make the OS more modular so things you never use could be removed without scrambling the whole system that would go a long way in making people happier. Sure it's convenient to have everything pre-cached and pre-loaded and quick-launched and bookmarked, until you realize that it's a giant mess because everything is all in one huge pile. I should be able to remove (not just disable or whatever they call it) IE and WMP and Windows Firewall and Remote Access and Telephony and ReadyBoost and... all this *%$! that I never use. Probably 60% of the OS is useless to me, and I consider myself to be a pretty savvy user. If all these threads, programs and services could be put in an "off" (not a stopped-but-ready-to-leap-into-action-so-im-still-using-cpu-and-memory-space) from a logical console that would be great - like Windows Defender, but better. Or even have a "smart" program that shuts down and uninstalls these things (or prompts you to do so) if they haven't been called in months.
a b $ Windows 7
January 8, 2009 2:09:24 PM

Got an XPS M1330 a few months ago with Vista bundled in. Immediately downgraded to XP, and was happy for a while. But then I started missing all those little touches that made Vista much easier to use (even if it slowed down more often), like explorer address breadcrumbs and auto-switching to projectors for instance.

I reformatted, reinstalled Vista, and removed all third-party software and surprisingly, everything was faster! :D  (didn't even remove all that UI eye-candy). So Feenyx's right: this former Vista-hater's become less angry at Microsoft, but the bloatware's gotta go—and manufacturers shouldn't charge for removing it! And the OS could do without some other features (just like how Word could've done without that annoying paperclip)

Maybe that's why Vista has all those Editions (Basic, Home, Premium, Ultimate). But that was a marketing mistake! People started thinking Microsoft was getting greedy, holding back "crucial" features for people willing to pay less, but I daresay Basic is enough for almost everyone's computing needs.

My $0.02. :whistle: 
January 8, 2009 9:43:58 PM

Quote:
Agree w/ badge and the other pro-Vista guys out there. I think the source of most of the Vista flaming is that people forgot how much trouble it was to migrate from Win98 to XP because it was so long ago. (Yes, I'm skipping ME...) It's ALWAYS tough to migrate when hardware fabs drag their feet to get stable drivers out. It ALWAYS takes some getting used to a new GUI and tweaked file system. That shouldn't keep you from using new things.
Now, before the MacOS fans start coming out of the woodwork, Apple has a whole different way of doing things: baby-step updates that get new names instead of service-pack numbers. If MS named every service pack something sexy and claimed it was a new OS, maybe there would be less complaining. <shrug>
That being said, the bloatware has got to go. If MS would make the OS more modular so things you never use could be removed without scrambling the whole system that would go a long way in making people happier. Sure it's convenient to have everything pre-cached and pre-loaded and quick-launched and bookmarked, until you realize that it's a giant mess because everything is all in one huge pile. I should be able to remove (not just disable or whatever they call it) IE and WMP and Windows Firewall and Remote Access and Telephony and ReadyBoost and... all this *%$! that I never use. Probably 60% of the OS is useless to me, and I consider myself to be a pretty savvy user. If all these threads, programs and services could be put in an "off" (not a stopped-but-ready-to-leap-into-action-so-im-still-using-cpu-and-memory-space) from a logical console that would be great - like Windows Defender, but better. Or even have a "smart" program that shuts down and uninstalls these things (or prompts you to do so) if they haven't been called in months.


Vista is cool. Don't need those programs? I think there was a program called v-lite or something...

All current OSes are bloated in my opinion... well those that bundle too much at least...
a b $ Windows 7
January 8, 2009 10:39:56 PM

^ Correct. vLite(for Vista) and nLite(2k/XP) can remove any thing you don't need.
January 8, 2009 10:42:51 PM

boy has vista come a long way...i've been using my brother's relatively new acer laptop, that came with vista, and it runs really, really well...almost too well...i was damn surprised...especially after i tried using vista and after a month I just had to abort...
January 8, 2009 11:09:29 PM

Had problem with my brother's Vista install at first. All downloaded programs wouldn't run. I was blaming Vista and getting very frustrated/angry.

Finally, I realized it was the drivers for his usb wireless adapter. Now all is good.

On my own Vista installation I am running as a non-admin user and UAC is a little annoying but I decided to have it that way. I might just change the password to something easier as I have to enter it so often.
January 8, 2009 11:10:23 PM

My Vista x64 SP1 installation runs great... the only thing faster? Linux! =)
a b $ Windows 7
January 9, 2009 4:33:13 PM

Someone should start a thread for Vista performance tweaks... I mean, admittedly Vista needs some help to run great, and we need to get the word out!
January 9, 2009 5:00:26 PM

randomizer said:
Are those millions the problem ones? :kaola: 


Personally, I prefer XP and I find Vista's Interface a little more tedious.
But those less skilled in computers I find tend to really like it.

However, I'm running Vista-32, Vista-64, XP-64, and XP-32 on different PCs around my house that I use daily. (And other Non-Windows Operating Systems as well)

Personally, I think Vista is just fine and not a problem.
In this article you likely have folks who have lots of computer experience and likely prefer what they have been using for a long time and is not likely a true reflection on Vista itself.
a b $ Windows 7
January 9, 2009 5:04:11 PM

Quote:
In this article you likely have folks who have lots of computer experience and likely prefer what they have been using for a long time and is not likely a true reflection on Vista itself.


Very true zenmaster! It's the old momentum problem... how do you get people to "upgrade" if they've gotten so used to something? Especially if the impression immediately becomes that they don't need the update in the first place.
January 9, 2009 5:25:05 PM

r_manic said:
Someone should start a thread for Vista performance tweaks... I mean, admittedly Vista needs some help to run great, and we need to get the word out!

Thats a good idea - but sticky are a pain in the ass to keep current.
January 9, 2009 6:17:14 PM

Just my thoughts on Vista and Windows 7 in the future FWIW:

I never even installed Vista until after they released SP1. The first time I installed it, it was great (this is the x86 version). Everything ran fine except for I got a BSOD or two at the beginning, but that was due to an unstable OC. UAC is a bit irritating, but simple enough to disable. I love the superfetch feature. Its nice to actually have all your RAM utilized. The *only* thing that sucked about Vista, to me, is the networking. It was fine at first, but at some point it started to only connect to the internet and my other computers when it felt like it, which was seemingly at random. That is the reason I went back to XP. I tried to install Vista x64 a little later on, but I could not for the life of me get any video drivers to work properly, ATI or nVidia. Constant "display driver stopped responding" errors. So I went back to the x86 version and had the same problem with it. I don't know why it worked so flawlessly on the first installation and doesn't now. So now I'm back to XP SP3 x86. If Windows 7 networking is better and video drivers actually work for it, I'm on board for sure. Just need to get another hard drive and I'll probably check out the beta.
January 9, 2009 6:25:17 PM

RE: Just need to get another hard drive and I'll probably check out the beta.

If your still running XP:

See the article I posted "How to Get Your Mitts on the Windows 7 Beta". I believe the author indicated that MS has made a beta requirement that Vista be installed - can't install the beta if your running XP :( 

I think that's crap on the part of MS, but we'll see.
January 9, 2009 6:40:17 PM

Jake_Barnes said:
RE: Just need to get another hard drive and I'll probably check out the beta.

If your still running XP:

See the article I posted "How to Get Your Mitts on the Windows 7 Beta". I believe the author indicated that MS has made a beta requirement that Vista be installed - can't install the beta if your running XP :( 

I think that's crap on the part of MS, but we'll see.


Thanks for the heads up!

I should still be ok, though. That article says that it is actually and upgrade disc .iso that they are offering for download. I still have my Vista x86 and x64 discs, so I suppose I can just reinstall Vista and then run the Windows 7 disc after Vista is installed. Still a bit of an inconvenience though. I've really got high hopes for Windows 7 and I'm hoping it makes Vista look like ME (which it already does, to an extent).
January 9, 2009 8:07:16 PM

It's funny to see them not mentioning Vista anymore. They don't want to bash it because the want to sell as much as they can before win7 comes out, but they won't stand behind such a controversially "meh" product. I suspect for the next several years, software developers will continue to support XP out of well learned skepticism. As we all know, the "Vista Only" software was...short lived to be brief.
January 9, 2009 11:47:32 PM

Well AMD live! explorer is still vista only...
a b $ Windows 7
January 10, 2009 8:21:37 AM

Quote:
Thats a good idea - but sticky are a pain in the ass to keep current.


That's why I think a forum's a great place to maintain it—anyone can just contribute to keep it current! Or would a Wiki do a better job?
January 10, 2009 9:39:32 AM

Wait this isn't a CPU best buy guide! How often does Vista change alot? Once a service pack?
January 10, 2009 9:02:34 PM

Jake_Barnes said:
The article is what it is ... get over it, or ignore it.

What exactly is it supposed to be, a conformity experiment? The guy stood-up before a security conference and asked how many of them were willing to look stupid for admitting they liked Windows Vista. I bet things went like this:

"How many of you have used Windows Vista?" (nobody looks around the room to guage the reaction, they just raise their hand)

"How many of you liked it?" (everyone looks nervously around the room to guage the reaction, a lot of people appear as though they are deliberating about something but don't raise their hand, while a few people proudly raise their hand because they are anti-establishment types who always get a big kick out of bucking any majority, whether or not their vote is truthful)

You probably could have created less pressure to conform by asking a crowd of union members if anyone wants to speak-up in favor of the company. SH-T!
January 10, 2009 10:46:06 PM

I also agree with the "pro-vista" users. It's been a great OS for me, i've got it tweaked down to ~50 services.

I only have one gripe. It randomly hangs. Usually when i open a folder, or right-click start menu explore. When it does it it stops responding for up to 30seconds before resuming as normal.

It has done it for as long as i can remember, and i've been trying to fix it for ages. My mom's brand new dell laptop does it, before and after i tweaked and unbloated it. My cousins laptop does it, and he hasn't tweaked it at all.

If anyone can provide some information on how to remedy these hangs i'd greatly appreciate it. I've been searching for a solution for a long time without any luck.

Games run perfect, everything from the latest, to the old stuff. Web surfing runs perfect, it only seems to hang when i'm just browsing through files. And sometimes the occasional app, although much less frequently.

All in all i've quite enjoyed Vista 64bit. I do plan to switch to Windows 7 though if i can't fix this hang issue, provided Windows 7 doesn't have said issue as well. Perhaps Badge could give me a hand :) 
January 12, 2009 5:21:28 AM

The only two problems I've had with my new install of Windows Vista SP1 is that 5.1 channel sound does not work (no matter, I only use 2.1) and KOTOR 2 does not work (I blame it on Bioware).
a b $ Windows 7
January 12, 2009 1:03:44 PM

Quote:
The only two problems I've had with my new install of Windows Vista SP1 is that 5.1 channel sound does not work (no matter, I only use 2.1) and KOTOR 2 does not work (I blame it on Bioware).


But... Obsidian developed KOTOR 2. Also, have you downloaded the update (avail here)?
a b $ Windows 7
January 13, 2009 6:57:11 PM

Funny that you mention KOTOR 2 not working... because the original KOTOR runs fine on Vista x64... at least for me.
January 14, 2009 2:53:23 AM

r_manic said:
Quote:
The only two problems I've had with my new install of Windows Vista SP1 is that 5.1 channel sound does not work (no matter, I only use 2.1) and KOTOR 2 does not work (I blame it on Bioware).


But... Obsidian developed KOTOR 2. Also, have you downloaded the update (avail here)?


Sorry, I meant that I blamed it on Bioware not making the game like they made the first. I'm blaming them because they gave it to Obsidian.

Zoron said:
Funny that you mention KOTOR 2 not working... because the original KOTOR runs fine on Vista x64... at least for me.


KOTOR 2 doesn't like my x64 installation. KOTOR is ok tho...
a b $ Windows 7
January 14, 2009 12:45:41 PM

Quote:
Sorry, I meant that I blamed it on Bioware not making the game like they made the first. I'm blaming them because they gave it to Obsidian.


True true. :p 

I think KOTOR 2 had more compatibility problems than the first game weirdly enough. Something about not running properly on Vista. Oh well, Let's wait for someone to bundle both games together and offer them legit for $5?

By the way, I was able to get my Windows 7 product key here: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/default.aspx (MS ID required, but not download, so if you can get ISO from friend do so!). More details on this TH thread.
January 15, 2009 5:52:12 AM

I'm waiting to beta 2... can't wait!
January 16, 2009 2:28:56 AM

I really have to say I like Vista 64, I really do not have any problems with it.

When I first got it about a year ago, I had very few driver issue's or the lack of drivers for 64 bit. All in all Vista 64 runs very smooth on all my builds. I just built a Intel build with a E7300 for a guy thats used to XP Linux and it also runs very smooth on his build too. He was shocked after using it for a week or two. He had heard horror stories about Vista, but he gave it a try because he saw how it ran on my builds.

When it first came out I am sure it did kinda suck, but what OS doesn't have issues out of the gate. Then you take the issue of all the crap that Best Buy and other stores have on there computers they sell, bloated trial crap, and it can make any OS run very slow.
a b $ Windows 7
January 23, 2009 7:47:56 AM

Quote:
When it first came out I am sure it did kinda suck, but what OS doesn't have issues out of the gate. Then you take the issue of all the crap that Best Buy and other stores have on there computers they sell, bloated trial crap, and it can make any OS run very slow.


That's why, for the laptops I've bought over the years, the first to-do is always a reformat. I think bloatware is less of a problem for units packaged as for small business use, correct?
January 23, 2009 12:18:46 PM

amdfangirl said:
KOTOR 2 doesn't like my x64 installation. KOTOR is ok tho...


Read this:
http://forums.filefront.com/sw-kotor2-problems-errors-h...

You have to use the MS32.dll file from KOTOR (or download it) to replace the one in KOTOR 2 and everything will work fine. I'm using it with Vista x64.
January 24, 2009 1:03:29 AM

oh thank you
!