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shadow priests

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Anonymous
August 19, 2005 2:57:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

I'm thinking about rolling a shadow priest. My main char is a lvl 46
pally. But now, I'm kind of bored with him. Has anyone else had any
experiences playing as a shadow priest?

More about : shadow priests

Anonymous
August 19, 2005 5:33:06 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

works swimingly well with discord action bar
discord unit frames. and that is discord group buttons.
they are all great.
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 5:48:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Thanks for some great input into the shadow priest. I will definitely
have to check out that mod add-on. I've been using another mod ui at
the moment.
Related resources
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 5:52:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Shadow priests melt faces in PvP.

<davisntran@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1124474248.463089.292550@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> I'm thinking about rolling a shadow priest. My main char is a lvl 46
> pally. But now, I'm kind of bored with him. Has anyone else had any
> experiences playing as a shadow priest?
>
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 10:39:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

<davisntran@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1124474248.463089.292550@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> I'm thinking about rolling a shadow priest. My main char is a lvl 46
> pally. But now, I'm kind of bored with him. Has anyone else had any
> experiences playing as a shadow priest?

PvP is good, but if you plan on becoming a healer for a raid or group in the
end game, you are going to re-roll back to a holy spec as soon as you hit
40. IMHO the only plausible reason to go shadow is to solo until you do
indeed hit 40, then you are going to be a high demand healer.
August 19, 2005 11:18:56 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

<davisntran@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1124474248.463089.292550@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> I'm thinking about rolling a shadow priest. My main char is a lvl 46
> pally. But now, I'm kind of bored with him. Has anyone else had any
> experiences playing as a shadow priest?

They're awesome. Have a 60 hunter, 60 shadow priest, 53 mage and several
other classes in the 20's. Shadow Priest is my favorite by a wide margin
(well... mage has gotten alot more fun in the 50's).

The old theory was Shadow to level, then respec to Holy/Disc at endgame. My
advice is ignore that advice. I respecced to Holy/Disc and it ruined the
character for me - far too boring in that build, largely 'cause the Holy
tree absolutely blows. The *only* advantage it had was I went through mana
slower, meaning less drinking. In MC boss fights I do go out of mana prior
to what would be ideal, but so be it. The versitility of a shadow build is
too much to sacrifice for being more effective the 4 or 5 MC boss fights I
take on a week.

The trick is you need to build two sets of equipment - one for solo/Shadow
(typically farming or questing), one that focuses on +healing gear when
grouping. On the plus side, +healing gear is real easy to find in instances
and you almost never face any competition when it drops. My group gear
combines for +268 healing at this point, which makes me easily as effective
a healer as a moderately equipped Disc/Holy priest. All that equipment is
from UBRS, Strat and Scholo runs - no MC stuff required to hit that. I
haven't even touched DM which is just littered with +healing gear. 4 or 5
Dire Maul runs should get me to the +350 healing easy. For the lower level
instances (anything prior to Sunken Temple) you don't even need to worry
about +healing gear - you've got plenty of healing even without talents.

Yesterday I was the sole healer on a 9-man Strat run - we had a grand total
of four deaths in the run (2 of which occurred because I went out of mana -
a deficency of the Shadow build, two cause the Rogues decided to see how
much damage they could do instead of letting the tank keep aggro), no wipes.
After it was over I switched out to my Shadow gear and farmed Hearthglen -
soloing 56 and 57 Elites. Killed 60 or so and never came close to dieing.
I don't think there's another class out there that can be SO effective at
soloing (my single-target DPS can match a Mage) and so important and
in-demand within a group run.

Only trick with Shadow Priests.... they're a little slower leveling prior to
40. Once you hit 40 and get Shadowform it's all over - you breeze your way
to 60. And get the Group Buttons add-on and spend an hour figuring out how
to use/configure it. You'll be an infinitely better healer with it than
without it.
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 11:18:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

snip
>. And get the Group Buttons add-on and spend an hour figuring out how
> to use/configure it. You'll be an infinitely better healer with it than
> without it.
>
What add on are you referring to ?
A search for Group Buttons wasn't revealing ).

thanks
August 20, 2005 12:11:51 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

>>. And get the Group Buttons add-on and spend an hour figuring out how
>> to use/configure it. You'll be an infinitely better healer with it than
>> without it.
>>
> What add on are you referring to ?
> A search for Group Buttons wasn't revealing ).
>
> thanks

http://www.curse-gaming.com/mod.php?addid=746

It's really a little tricky to setup and configure the way you want, but
once you get it going it's a godsend.
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 12:24:08 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

mnthacker wrote:
> PvP is good, but if you plan on becoming a healer for a raid or group in the
> end game, you are going to re-roll back to a holy spec as soon as you hit
> 40. IMHO the only plausible reason to go shadow is to solo until you do
> indeed hit 40, then you are going to be a high demand healer.

Is that based on genuine experience, or is it World of Theorycraft?

Because everything I've heard suggests that the different between a
shadow priest and a holy priest, for healing, is very small compared to
the gap between a bad priest and a good priest.

Yes, if you respec from shadow, you'll heal better, but if you're any
good, you'll do fine with your shadow spec.

Cheers!
David...
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 12:24:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Alucard" <vampyrealucardnospam@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

> What if i just get that one ability that gives you four times the mana
> when
> healing?! also yes the 15 second shield is an awesome holy ability. I wish
> my
> shadow priest could use that!!!

Wow - a sarcasm detector - THAT'S a useful invention....
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 2:50:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:18:56 GMT, "steve" <anon@anon.com> wrote:


>The old theory was Shadow to level, then respec to Holy/Disc at endgame. My
>advice is ignore that advice. I respecced to Holy/Disc and it ruined the
>character for me - far too boring in that build, largely 'cause the Holy
>tree absolutely blows. The *only* advantage it had was I went through mana
>slower, meaning less drinking. In MC boss fights I do go out of mana prior
>to what would be ideal, but so be it. The versitility of a shadow build is
>too much to sacrifice for being more effective the 4 or 5 MC boss fights I
>take on a week.

/signed
/agree

I was shadow from 1-60 (ok, 10-60 - hard to spec before that :p ), and
respecced after a few runs of Molten Core because I hoped it would
help. Personally I have a hard time telling the difference, except
that I can hardly solo anymore - my priest has become a group only
character, and I am seriously thinking of respeccing back to shadow to
make it possible to solo again...

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 12:45:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

steve wrote:
> After it was over I switched out to my Shadow gear and farmed Hearthglen -
> soloing 56 and 57 Elites. Killed 60 or so and never came close to dieing.
> I don't think there's another class out there that can be SO effective at
> soloing (my single-target DPS can match a Mage) and so important and
> in-demand within a group run.

I can give you an example:

Bear/Innervate druids. We're the 2nd best tanks and 2nd best healers
(you Shadow Priests are 3rd) in the game all rolled in one.

Btw, when you can solo 59-60 elites, then come talk to me. Level 56-57
elites are cream puffs.

Regards,
Noal

--
Dharzhak - Night Elf Druid (60) on Stormrage
Kemwer - Tauren Warrior (40) on Stormrage
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 9:48:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Stavros Christoforou wrote:
> Paladins are indeed very good soloers, but simply cannot compare to a
> druid. Yes, you could possibly solo a stone guardian in Un'goro (in 20
> minutes that is..), but I can do it while killing a tyrant devilsaur *at
> the same time*. These are the fearing ones, btw.

....with one hand tied behind his back! :-)

Yeah, the Stone Guardians are easier than their level. The level 58
Elite ziggaraut defenders in EP are much, much tougher.

> Also, a restoration druid is almost always preferred as the healer in
> 5-man instances and up to UBRS (bar scholo, where shackle owns), since
> he can take much more beating than an aggroed priest.

Shackle is a crutch. If your tank has got decent gear, a Druid can heal
Scholo fine. I have.

> Druids can also tank any instance up to Strat, but not Baron (except
> with a VERY good group).

I've done it several times. Baron's tough, but hardly impossible. With
good gear and a Greater Shadow Prot pot, he's moderately easy. Stick a
Pally on AoE detail with a Mage and your golden. Btw, I've done MT on
UBRS and DM West, too. Quite simply, a Druid can MT anything, given the
chance. My guild's convinced that I could MT Onyxia. At some point, I'd
like to prove them right.

> The only place where a Druid has a limited use
> is MC, where they are demoted to priest innervators and decursers, since
> their heals are not fast enough for the insane dmg dealt to tanks.

Oh, bullshit. Quit talking out your ass. I run MC 3-4 times a week. I
am ALWAYS in the top 5 healers and I can count on one hand the number
of times I've innervated a priest in MC.

With at least 10 healers focussing one on guy, there are two reasons
why a tank would get melted in MC. One, all of your healers are asleep
at the wheel. Two, he's an idiot that's running around in Valor
garbage. The MT needs a lot of Defense, not goofy set bonuses.

> However, what you and the previous poster both have wrong is the
> druids/paladins ability to kill as fast as a shadow priest.

Kill as fast, no. Kill more reliably, yes.

> Yes, the
> shadow is more fragile than us druids or you palas but can grind about
> 10 times faster, due to vastly superior dps. True, the bear can take 3
> of the scarlets at once, but by the time they are dead, the priest next
> to you will have soloed 6 single ones. It is sad, but it is true.

I'd like to see a shadow priest try to solo six Scarlets in the time I
grind three. I really would. The first time one runs in fear and brings
in reinforcements, he'll be doing the walk of shame. Never mind that
priests have no way to regenerate mana. They'll be drinking after every
other one, at best.

> PS: This was not Paladin bashing.

No, but it sounded a lot like druid bashing. Tell you what, stop
putting limits on our class. I've personally broken through every one
you've listed. I'm quite certain that I'm far from alone in having done
so.

Noal

--
Dharzhak - Night Elf Druid (60) on Stormrage
Kemwer - Tauren Warrior (40) on Stormrage
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 12:17:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:18:56 GMT, steve <anon@anon.com> wrote:
> And get the Group Buttons add-on and spend an hour figuring out how
> to use/configure it. You'll be an infinitely better healer with it than
> without it.

I second the reccommendation for Group Buttons - but I must admit that
I've not used it much since I discovered the Emergency Monitor feature
of CTRaidAssist - this puts up to 5 health bars in the middle of your
screen (but only when health is below a certain threshold), with the
most damaged person at the top.

So to heal effectively, just click the top-most bar to target that
person, then hit renew/flash heal/etc (I have renew, flash heal, and
sheild assigned to mouse buttons to make this even easier). Even
better is it shows people in other groups if you're in a raid -
healing a whole raid has never been so easy!

So, whilst it's indispensible for a raid group, it's also very very
useful in an ordinary party - try it out and see.

The 3 add-ons my priest couldn't live without (in order):
CTRaidAssist
Decursive
Group Buttons
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 1:43:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

> I'm thinking about rolling a shadow priest. My main char is a lvl 46
> pally. But now, I'm kind of bored with him. Has anyone else had any
> experiences playing as a shadow priest?

I played a Hunter to 60 then rolled a Priest purely because our guild
doesn't have a high level dedicated healer. I absolutely love my Priest and
only ever bring the Hunter out if we need an offtank.





--
Moif of Bloodhoof <The Suffering>
http://www.wowrankings.com/viewb.htm?id=27138
http://www.the-suffering.co.uk
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 2:07:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

mnthacker wrote:
>>> "David Carson" <david@eldergothSPAMTRAP.com> wrote in message
>>> news:43065cce$0$8616$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>>>>
>>>> Is that based on genuine experience, or is it World of
>>>> Theorycraft?
>>>>
>>>> Because everything I've heard suggests that the different
>>>> between a shadow priest and a holy priest, for healing, is very
>>>> small compared to the gap between a bad priest and a good
>>>> priest.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, if you respec from shadow, you'll heal better, but if
>>>> you're any good, you'll do fine with your shadow spec.

<snip!>

> Well first of all, he chose to flame first. But this isn't a flame
> contest.

Quick tip - if you're going to falsely accuse someone of flaming, it's
not such a good idea to leave their original post intact, so everyone
can see that it didn't contain any flames.

> I find his and your reasoning ridiculous.

Reasoning? What reasoning? I didn't offer any "reasoning", I merely
mentioned what I had HEARD SAID by other people.

> Why on earth would you want to be shadow specced in the end game?
> There is no reason for any talents you would have in MC. If you're a
> priest, you are buffing, healing, and rezzing. If you are a dorf
> priest you're buffing, healing, rezzing, and fear warding. Pure and
> simple. Once you hit high end content you are never going to be
> wanted for anything but. It's not being mean, it's the simple fact
> of the matter, a Priest heals and buffs not casts and kills.
>
> What are you going to solo at level 60 for that matter as a priest?
> And I will not discuss pvp, as it bears no meaning to me.

Well there you go. If you'd clarified from the start that you're one of
the "not interested in PvP" minority, I would have agreed with you that
there's no point being shadow specced for the endgame.

But for most WoW players, the endgame includes PvP, and a lot of priest
players very much enjoy "melting faces" in PvP. And they find that high
end PvE raiding doesn't actually demand that that avenue of pleasure be
closed off to them.

Cheers!
David...
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 2:31:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Zil wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:18:56 GMT, steve <anon@anon.com> wrote:
>
> The 3 add-ons my priest couldn't live without (in order):
> CTRaidAssist
> Decursive
> Group Buttons
>

BTW, the new CTRA includes Decursive
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 5:06:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Brian wrote:
> I'm also not getting killing blows fast enough,
> so I'm not in Spirit Tap enough.

Whereas a druid actually gets stronger as the fight goes on. Longer
fights play to our strengths more than other classes.

> But I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that a shadow priest can steamroll
> through, say, the Winterfall furbolgs like they weren't even there.

Sure. Most of them are pretty soft. I grind that area for Frostsaber
Trainer faction.

> And a druid can't kill those that much faster than
> they can kill the elites.

Not true. I can kill one in 25-45 seconds, depending on how the crits
go. However, I'm usually doing 2-3 of them at a time and the more I
have beating on me at once, the faster I can kill each of them as they
soften themselves up from Thorns damage and cause me to generate rage
faster. I *may* pop up and self heal if I'm taking 3 or more at once.
Usually popping Regeneration about halfway through the 2nd mob is
enough.

Grinding elites usually take at least 1-2 minutes each. It's like
watching paint dry. The most exciting part is when I'm grinding 59+
Elites and I pop up to self heal and pop back down and continue
Mauling. Hoo, boy. That's a jolt of energy there. :-P

Regards,
Noal
August 23, 2005 2:30:36 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Noal McDonald" <dharzhak@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1124682331.525140.243230@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> steve wrote:
>> After it was over I switched out to my Shadow gear and farmed
>> Hearthglen -
>> soloing 56 and 57 Elites. Killed 60 or so and never came close to
>> dieing.
>> I don't think there's another class out there that can be SO effective at
>> soloing (my single-target DPS can match a Mage) and so important and
>> in-demand within a group run.
>
> I can give you an example:
>
> Bear/Innervate druids. We're the 2nd best tanks and 2nd best healers
> (you Shadow Priests are 3rd) in the game all rolled in one.

Problem is you need a really good group to utilize a 2nd-best-tank-class as
your tank. Some random pickup group with a druid tanking is a recipe for
disaster.

Same thing with the healing. I've had a druid as the sole healer in groups
(while playing on an alt) and once they have to start chain healing
DPS-crazy rogues and mages they pull aggro and have no way to drop aggro,
end up swapping forms or chain healing themselves, and on and on. I've been
on groups with a druid as the only healer and the group let the warrior hold
aggro, played sensibly, etc. and everything went just time.

I've no doubt a good Druid can handle tanking and main healing duties, but
only with a good group - which is a real limiting factor in WoW.
Guild-only? Sure. Pickup group - really depends. A skilled warrior can
make a bad pickup group function. A skilled priest can make a bad pickup
group function. A skilled druid is gonna be in trouble in a bad pickup
group.

> Btw, when you can solo 59-60 elites, then come talk to me. Level 56-57
> elites are cream puffs.

errr... I can solo just about anything. Some elites are different than
other elites, so I'm not gonna make a blanket statement I can solo
everything without a problem. The demons in south Winterspring are a nasty
bunch for instance - never been too successful soloing there. But with big
DPS, PW:Shield, mana burn, silence, fear, vampiric embrace and ability to
drop back to the whole spectrum of healing if need be, I'm not in awe of the
druid talents.

I grind the elites I do because a) it's mana efficient. I average a kill
every 45 seconds including the drinking time after each two kills and b)
they have the top world drops already. There's no reason to be grinding lvl
59 and 60 elites unless it's for some very specific item (mature sinew or
some other odd quest need).

I'm sure druids are cool. I leveled one to about 18 or so but found the
leveling speed too slow for my tastes. Perhaps it picks up later on.
Regardless, if you like to run instances whenver you want and solo truly
efficiently (my play style, others certainly have different preferences) I'd
say Shadow Priest beats any druid build out there. There's no druid getting
the constant invites to instances from strangers that I am and there's no
druid that can take out 75-80 Hearthglen elites an hour.

On the plus side, if the new instance (Zul Farab or whatever) is considered
outdoor, which it looks like it will be, druid will see a big boost in party
popularity as they can actually use their crowd control for once. And
druids get equipped alot faster 'cause there's less of them and no warlocks
and mages snagging your items :) 
Anonymous
August 23, 2005 4:21:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"steve" <anon@anon.com> wrote:

> Problem is you need a really good group to utilize a 2nd-best-tank-class as
> your tank. Some random pickup group with a druid tanking is a recipe for
> disaster.

Can't second this. Not what you basically say, but the conclusion.

First:
A bad working group is a PITA when tanking. You play horde? Ever
tried to hold aggro against an earthshock spamming shaman? Well, you
can, but then you have to spend 95% of your time on the spammed mob.
A mage that AoEs a group of elites will draw more aggro than a tank
can get back. A druid can't, neither can a warrior. Same for healing:
A healer that has to heal mages, rogues or shamen will _waste_ his
mana and run oom soon. If you have a challenging pull and the
healer has to spend a lot of mana for healing casters or rogues (or
basically everything but the tank), he will run oom too soon and
may get aggro. Again, no matter whether it's a druid or a priest.

Second:
Good druid > bad priest as healer.
Good druid > bad warrior as tank.

A good druid can heal everything that's supposed to be healed by
one person. A good druid can tank everything that's supposed to
be tanked by one person. If a good druid isn't enough to heal or
tank something, it would be impossible - or at least very close
to - for a warrior or a priest too.

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (60) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Lonewalker - Striding Tauren (15) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Anonymous
August 23, 2005 5:02:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Frank E wrote:
> Hmm, if you're bringing up crits to hold agro, I think you've already
> lost that part of the debate. <g>

Naah. I realise we're the poor man's tank. We're just not as poor as
the Paladins. :-) I have done MT on everything short of Onyxia and MC,
including 5 man Baron. Having a 19% crit rate isn't bad. I'd like to
get it higher and have plans to do so.

> Unless we're talking about trivial mobs, I've never found a way to
> hold just heal agro against say 4 elites without pulling out all my
> warrior's tricks. There's just too much damage coming in that has to
> be healed. It's actually working out better for our group to let my
> warrior handle 3 while everyone else concentrates on the 4th.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Let the MA peel it and everyone
melt while you dance with the others. Then, they come back and peel
another one and you dance with the remaining 2. That's how it's
supposed to work.

> Do druids ever get a true AoE taunt or just their version of
> demoralizing shout?

No, we get both. We have Challenging Roar. Does the exact same thing as
Challenging Shout. Same cooldown and everything. Supposedly, taunts
resets aggro, so I'm careful to not spam it as a crutch. I certainly
don't use it as a tool to maintain aggro, which is the biggest mistake
I see made.

> The warrior always has the option to pop out of defensive and hit
> mocking blow, it's a longer cooldown than taunt but it's also much
> better when it lands since it locks the target on your for 5(?)
> seconds. If that fails, you have a true AoE taunt (on a 10 minute
> cooldown though). ... but usually revenge will light up somewhere in
> there and that can pretty much overcome any heal agro.

I loved tanking as a Druid so much that I rolled a Warrior. So I do
have some basis for personal comparison. If I lose aggro on a mob after
I've taunted it, I'll hit 'em with a 5 second stun, which gives me
plenty of time to get their attention. I try to reserve the AoE taunt
for when multiple Elites have strayed.

The one thing that I find irritating with a Warrior is that you have so
*many* tools in various stances that most of them feel like they go to
waste and it doesn't occur to me to use something that would be
helpful...Mocking Blow, for example. Granted, I'm only level 40, so I'm
sure it'll improve with time. The thing I like about tanking as a bear
is that it's very simple. I have one bar of attacks to use. When I'm
frantically trying to control a situation, I'm not fighting extra
keystrokes and a dizzying array of tools. Taunt it. Discouraging Roar
it. Faerie Fire it. Stun it. Maul it. Swipe it and two of its closest
friends. Maul it. Swipe it and.... You get the idea.

> If that regen has the same taunt as a real heal, that might well be
> what I'm missing. I can see where hitting that early in a bad fight
> (before your healer heals you) could do an excellent job of locking
> the mobs on you.

Yeah, it does a pretty good job.

> I haven't had many chances to group with a tanking druid so I'll admit
> that I might be wrong about them. Maybe the few I grouped with just
> didn't know their job very well, it's hard enough to find a good
> tanking warrior, which was the main reason I started one.

Very, very true. I've been on runs where the Warrior asked me to be the
MT because it was obvious I was better at it. For a simple job (keep
mobs beating on you and protect the healers/casters) it's a LOT of hard
work. It takes the proper gear and a lot of player skill. I don't doubt
that you've experienced some druids that thought they were some divine
gift to the tanking world and couldn't protect the clothies to safe his
life. I've experienced it with warriors, too. The factor that really
counts is that a Druid has to work harder at it than a warrior. Lack of
skill will become obivous really quickly.

> I always called that the 'death loop' but that was from the
> perspective of our alliance group that had a druid main healing up to
> 60 and a paladin tanking. Once the druid went into self-heal mode, we
> usually couldn't grab agro back before it was too late.

That's a limitation of the Paladin, not the Druid. A good warrior will
pull them off of me as soon as they see the help message. If that
doesn't happen, I'll run past the warrior, self healing only what's
necessary, hoping he can catch them on the way past. A true tank such
as a warrior or a Druid bear have the taunts to handle that situation.
A paladin really doesn't.

> They have more ways to wipe a group than any other class. ... and as
> you mentioned, the fact that they can easily solo up to 60 doesn't
> help matters. The good hunters do have a lot of ways to help a group
> and I love grouping with hunters that I know and trust.

As do, I. A player that knows his role within the group and plays it
well is fun to run with. I've made a habit of putting good hunters on
my friends list so I know who to go look for when I have a spot to
fill.

> The fact that anyone can solo to 60 doesn't help matters when it comes
> to finding competent groups in WoW. It's pretty easy to spot the
> difference between someone who grew up soloing or grouping in
> instances.

Absolutely agreed.

Regards,
Noal

--
Dharzhak - Night Elf Druid (60) on Stormrage
Kemwer - Tauren Warrior (40) on Stormrage
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 7:29:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Urbin wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:20:15 +0200, Christian Stauffer <wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote:
> > "Frank E" <fakeaddress@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 23 Aug 2005 09:40:50 -0700, "Noal McDonald" <dharzhak@my-deja.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> Now you got my attention :-)
>
> Being a hunter myself I do tend to solo as much as I can (because I can solo
> a lot - one of the reasons I like my hunter so much). And as the hunter is
> my main, I have next to no experience grouping as another class.
>
> When in a group, I try to communicate with my group members on what to do
> and how, but I am not sure if there are specifics you were aiming for (that
> hunters don't do).
>
> My main problem in instances when grouped is that, if my pet is on a mob and
> the mob flees, my pet follows it and when returning pulls loads of other
> mobs. I try to keep an eye on my pet's target and use 'stunning shot' to
> stop it which usually works like a charm but every once in a while I do
> miss the moment... *wipe*

I use the SmartPet add-on which has a function to stop your pet
chasing. I don't actually use that feature but it's there. I tend to
just hit my hot key to put it into passive mode and then it comes
running back.

> I can of course put away my pet but then I'd loose a considerable amount of
> dps, plus I found that I tend to draw away mobs from the other group members
> when shooting at them. Don't know if this is due to bad tanking or a mistake
> of my own.
>
> My hunter has a Markmanship/Survival build (34/5) so I'm much better at
> distance dps than at melee dps.
>
> What I am getting down to is: What do 'good group hunters' do that makes you
> trust them because I would sure like to improve in my skills.

I have a couple of links for advice for Hunters in the two areas that
they seem weak: PvP and Instances. I'll see if I can find them
tonight and post them. I've read them and they seemed to be good
guides but I don't PvP or group much so I've not had chance to try them
out.

steve.kaye
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 10:13:03 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

On 23 Aug 2005 13:02:21 -0700, "Noal McDonald" <dharzhak@my-deja.com>
wrote:

>Frank E wrote:
>> Hmm, if you're bringing up crits to hold agro, I think you've already
>> lost that part of the debate. <g>
>
>Naah. I realise we're the poor man's tank. We're just not as poor as
>the Paladins. :-)

Having had a Paladin as a main tank for my rogue up to lvl 60, I
really wish they'd get a bit of help in that department. One taunt
would turn them into viable tanks without bringing them close enough
to druids and warriors to threaten them.

>I have done MT on everything short of Onyxia and MC,
>including 5 man Baron. Having a 19% crit rate isn't bad. I'd like to
>get it higher and have plans to do so.

My point was that crit rate really doesn't have anything to do with
tanking. If you're counting on the extra DPS from crits to hold agro,
especially as a druid where your base DPS in bear form is less than
spectacular (to put it mildly :p ), you're in trouble.

>> Do druids ever get a true AoE taunt or just their version of
>> demoralizing shout?
>
>No, we get both. We have Challenging Roar. Does the exact same thing as
>Challenging Shout. Same cooldown and everything. Supposedly, taunts
>resets aggro, so I'm careful to not spam it as a crutch. I certainly
>don't use it as a tool to maintain aggro, which is the biggest mistake
>I see made.

The hardest thing for me to learn with Taunt was that it isn't of much
use unless you have rage built up. If you taunt a mob and can't follow
it up with a high agro attack, you'll loose it again after 1 second.
So often you fight to fight your natural reaction to hit taunt as soon
as a mob turns away from you.

>> I haven't had many chances to group with a tanking druid so I'll admit
>> that I might be wrong about them. Maybe the few I grouped with just
>> didn't know their job very well, it's hard enough to find a good
>> tanking warrior, which was the main reason I started one.
>
>Very, very true. I've been on runs where the Warrior asked me to be the
>MT because it was obvious I was better at it. For a simple job (keep
>mobs beating on you and protect the healers/casters) it's a LOT of hard
>work.

Admittedly, I haven't played a real healer past 30th lvl but I'm
starting to think that instance tanking is the most challenging role
in WoW.

>> I always called that the 'death loop' but that was from the
>> perspective of our alliance group that had a druid main healing up to
>> 60 and a paladin tanking. Once the druid went into self-heal mode, we
>> usually couldn't grab agro back before it was too late.
>
>That's a limitation of the Paladin, not the Druid. A good warrior will
>pull them off of me as soon as they see the help message.

True, my warrior also has a resto druid as main healer and it's a lot
easier. Damage taken for the healer is usually around 5% of the total.
Paladins seriously need a form of snap agro. ... although they have
excellent single target agro. My rogue, as a dps-backstab build, never
needs to feint with our paladin tanking a boss mob. I never really had
to use feint on my way up to 60.

Rgds, Frank
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 12:56:48 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Frank E wrote:
> My point was that crit rate really doesn't have anything to do with
> tanking. If you're counting on the extra DPS from crits to hold agro,
> especially as a druid where your base DPS in bear form is less than
> spectacular (to put it mildly :p ), you're in trouble.

No, you're missing the point of crit rate for a tank. I don't care
about DPS. Druids are on the low end of the totem pole for that.

Crits generate threat. Additional threat keeps them pounding on you and
not somebody else. In my Main Tank gear, I value Dodge, High Armor,
Stamina and Crit, in that order. In my Main Assist/Solo Gear, I value
crit more highly as I have to generate a lot more threat to hold it in
place.

> The hardest thing for me to learn with Taunt was that it isn't of much
> use unless you have rage built up. If you taunt a mob and can't follow
> it up with a high agro attack, you'll loose it again after 1 second.
> So often you fight to fight your natural reaction to hit taunt as soon
> as a mob turns away from you.

I can agree with that. Failing that, if I've got Bash (5 second stun)
available, that'll do just as well.

> Admittedly, I haven't played a real healer past 30th lvl but I'm
> starting to think that instance tanking is the most challenging role
> in WoW.

With tools to assist healers like CastParty and CT Raid, you betcha.
Tanking's FAR more work than clicking on health bars.

> True, my warrior also has a resto druid as main healer and it's a lot
> easier. Damage taken for the healer is usually around 5% of the total.
> Paladins seriously need a form of snap agro. ... although they have
> excellent single target agro.

I'm not sure we really need them to. People are just starting to wake
up to how good druid tanks can be. The ability to wear plate is NOT the
same as the ability to tank. Paladins that learn to play to the
strengths of their class and not try to turn them into something
they're not are great. They're very good at doing MA duty. They can be
very capable (and durable) main healers. They can also do some *wicked*
DPS if they gear and spec for it. While they really don't have the
tools to be MT, they've got plenty enough to keep them in demand.

Regards,
Noal
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 1:20:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Frank E" <fakeaddress@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On 23 Aug 2005 09:40:50 -0700, "Noal McDonald" <dharzhak@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Not entirely true. A druid can hold aggro on multiple targets *if* they
>>have enough +Crit gear and they're experienced at it and *if* the party
>>follows the MA and peels & nukes one mob at a time as they're supposed
>>to.
>
> Hmm, if you're bringing up crits to hold agro, I think you've already
> lost that part of the debate. <g>

Misunderstanding: Noals build (and mine :o ) gives us additional rage
when landing crits, so +Crit IS important. Crit = Rage, Rage = special
abilities, special abilities = aggro.

> Unless we're talking about trivial mobs, I've never found a way to
> hold just heal agro against say 4 elites without pulling out all my
> warrior's tricks.

I can tell you how I do this:
- Pull in whatever way
- Set off a demo roar (initial aggro)
- (From now on, every mob that hits you generates aggro because of
thorns)
- Enrage (-> additional rage)
- Swipe (-> like cleave)
- Switch targets and debuff them with fairie fire
- Use swipe as often as you got enough rage

Holding aggro against the healer is not a problem in my experience.
The only time mobs run for the healer, it's my fault because I
didn't do anything with that mob.

> There's just too much damage coming in that has to
> be healed.

Lots of AC (>8k unbuffed), lots of +Defense (376) help to reduce
the incoming damage (and crits). Lots of stamina means the healer
can heal later.

> It's actually working out better for our group to let my
> warrior handle 3 while everyone else concentrates on the 4th.

You should be able to hold aggro against the damage dealers for
1 mob and hold aggro against the healer on 3 others.
However, the thorns buff helps a LOT for this.

> Do druids ever get a true AoE taunt or just their version of
> demoralizing shout?

We have the same AoE taunt as warriors.

> If that regen has the same taunt as a real heal, that might well be
> what I'm missing. I can see where hitting that early in a bad fight
> (before your healer heals you) could do an excellent job of locking
> the mobs on you.

Exactly. I use it for boss fights, or to enlarge the time until someone
has to heal me in a bad pull.

> I haven't had many chances to group with a tanking druid so I'll admit
> that I might be wrong about them. Maybe the few I grouped with just
> didn't know their job very well, it's hard enough to find a good
> tanking warrior, which was the main reason I started one.

:o )

> I always called that the 'death loop' but that was from the
> perspective of our alliance group that had a druid main healing up to
> 60 and a paladin tanking. Once the druid went into self-heal mode, we
> usually couldn't grab agro back before it was too late.

That's why I don't heal my self. Never. Well, almost :o ) Healing myself
will make it even worse.

>>The biggest caveat is Hunters. I think they do more to screw up groups
>>and raids than any other class.
>
> They have more ways to wipe a group than any other class. ... and as
> you mentioned, the fact that they can easily solo up to 60 doesn't
> help matters. The good hunters do have a lot of ways to help a group
> and I love grouping with hunters that I know and trust.

Same here. My experience with hunters is quite good so far. But what
I have to second is that you feel they aren't really used to grouping.
Not too much communication, they "solo" the mobs (send the pet for
a mob that's not getting too much attention and kill it on their own).

>>That is not to say that I've not been in groups that were horrible that
>>had nothing to do with the hunter.
>
> The fact that anyone can solo to 60 doesn't help matters when it comes
> to finding competent groups in WoW. It's pretty easy to spot the
> difference between someone who grew up soloing or grouping in
> instances.

Agreed.

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (60) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Lonewalker - Striding Tauren (15) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 1:20:16 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:20:15 +0200, "Christian Stauffer"
<wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote:

>"Frank E" <fakeaddress@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 23 Aug 2005 09:40:50 -0700, "Noal McDonald" <dharzhak@my-deja.com>
>> wrote:
>> Hmm, if you're bringing up crits to hold agro, I think you've already
>> lost that part of the debate. <g>
>
>Misunderstanding: Noals build (and mine :o ) gives us additional rage
>when landing crits, so +Crit IS important. Crit = Rage, Rage = special
>abilities, special abilities = aggro.

Ahh.
<lightbulb goes off>

>> Unless we're talking about trivial mobs, I've never found a way to
>> hold just heal agro against say 4 elites without pulling out all my
>> warrior's tricks.
>
>I can tell you how I do this:
>- Pull in whatever way
>- Set off a demo roar (initial aggro)
>- (From now on, every mob that hits you generates aggro because of
> thorns)
>- Enrage (-> additional rage)
>- Swipe (-> like cleave)
>- Switch targets and debuff them with fairie fire
>- Use swipe as often as you got enough rage

You left off the hardest part on something like a 4 elite pull. Just
trying to keep track of which mobs you have and haven't 'tickled' yet.
<g>

>Holding aggro against the healer is not a problem in my experience.
>The only time mobs run for the healer, it's my fault because I
>didn't do anything with that mob.

I think part of my problem atm is that our dungeon group is taking on
things thar are a bit above our level. Things like RFD with a high 30s
group (my warrior was 40), Uldaman with about a lvl 44 group (warrior
was 46 though). I'm sometimes in the position of tanking 4 equal or -1
level elites and haven't hit the dungeons yet where blue plate drops
to give me a bit of an edge.

Life as a rogue was much easier, but not nearly as much fun.

Rgds, Frank
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 1:21:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

On 24 Aug 2005 08:56:48 -0700, "Noal McDonald" <dharzhak@my-deja.com>
wrote:

>No, you're missing the point of crit rate for a tank. I don't care
>about DPS. Druids are on the low end of the totem pole for that.
>
>Crits generate threat. Additional threat keeps them pounding on you and
>not somebody else. In my Main Tank gear, I value Dodge, High Armor,
>Stamina and Crit, in that order. In my Main Assist/Solo Gear, I value
>crit more highly as I have to generate a lot more threat to hold it in
>place.

Yeah, I read that in another post right after I answered.

Rgds, Frank
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 1:39:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

steve.kaye wrote:
> Urbin wrote:
> > On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:20:15 +0200, Christian Stauffer <wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote:
> > > "Frank E" <fakeaddress@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On 23 Aug 2005 09:40:50 -0700, "Noal McDonald" <dharzhak@my-deja.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > Now you got my attention :-)
> >
> > Being a hunter myself I do tend to solo as much as I can (because I can solo
> > a lot - one of the reasons I like my hunter so much). And as the hunter is
> > my main, I have next to no experience grouping as another class.
> >
> > When in a group, I try to communicate with my group members on what to do
> > and how, but I am not sure if there are specifics you were aiming for (that
> > hunters don't do).
> >
> > My main problem in instances when grouped is that, if my pet is on a mob and
> > the mob flees, my pet follows it and when returning pulls loads of other
> > mobs. I try to keep an eye on my pet's target and use 'stunning shot' to
> > stop it which usually works like a charm but every once in a while I do
> > miss the moment... *wipe*
>
> I use the SmartPet add-on which has a function to stop your pet
> chasing. I don't actually use that feature but it's there. I tend to
> just hit my hot key to put it into passive mode and then it comes
> running back.
>
> > I can of course put away my pet but then I'd loose a considerable amount of
> > dps, plus I found that I tend to draw away mobs from the other group members
> > when shooting at them. Don't know if this is due to bad tanking or a mistake
> > of my own.
> >
> > My hunter has a Markmanship/Survival build (34/5) so I'm much better at
> > distance dps than at melee dps.
> >
> > What I am getting down to is: What do 'good group hunters' do that makes you
> > trust them because I would sure like to improve in my skills.
>
> I have a couple of links for advice for Hunters in the two areas that
> they seem weak: PvP and Instances. I'll see if I can find them
> tonight and post them. I've read them and they seemed to be good
> guides but I don't PvP or group much so I've not had chance to try them
> out.

Here they are:

Hunter Guide to Being Useful in Instances
http://wow.warcraftstrategy.com/db/article.asp?id=%2010...

Hunter PvP Guide
http://wow.warcraftstrategy.com/db/article.asp?ID=967

steve.kaye
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 1:55:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:20:15 +0200, Christian Stauffer <wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote:
> "Frank E" <fakeaddress@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On 23 Aug 2005 09:40:50 -0700, "Noal McDonald" <dharzhak@my-deja.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>The biggest caveat is Hunters. I think they do more to screw up groups
> >>and raids than any other class.
> >
> > They have more ways to wipe a group than any other class. ... and as
> > you mentioned, the fact that they can easily solo up to 60 doesn't
> > help matters. The good hunters do have a lot of ways to help a group
> > and I love grouping with hunters that I know and trust.
>
> Same here. My experience with hunters is quite good so far. But what
> I have to second is that you feel they aren't really used to grouping.
> Not too much communication, they "solo" the mobs (send the pet for
> a mob that's not getting too much attention and kill it on their own).

Now you got my attention :-)

Being a hunter myself I do tend to solo as much as I can (because I can solo
a lot - one of the reasons I like my hunter so much). And as the hunter is
my main, I have next to no experience grouping as another class.

When in a group, I try to communicate with my group members on what to do
and how, but I am not sure if there are specifics you were aiming for (that
hunters don't do).

My main problem in instances when grouped is that, if my pet is on a mob and
the mob flees, my pet follows it and when returning pulls loads of other
mobs. I try to keep an eye on my pet's target and use 'stunning shot' to
stop it which usually works like a charm but every once in a while I do
miss the moment... *wipe*

I can of course put away my pet but then I'd loose a considerable amount of
dps, plus I found that I tend to draw away mobs from the other group members
when shooting at them. Don't know if this is due to bad tanking or a mistake
of my own.

My hunter has a Markmanship/Survival build (34/5) so I'm much better at
distance dps than at melee dps.

What I am getting down to is: What do 'good group hunters' do that makes you
trust them because I would sure like to improve in my skills.

Looking forward to hearing your suggestions.
Urbin


--
Urbin (49), Dwarven Hunter (PvE) @dunmorogh.de
Gera (14), Human Paladin (PvE) @dunmorogh.de
Sneak (7), Troll Rogue (PvE) @dunmorogh.de
Gorosh (5), Tauren Druid (PvP) @sunstrider.uk
August 24, 2005 2:47:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Christian Stauffer" <wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote:
> "Frank E" <fakeaddress@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > If you have a druid tanking, you have to expect for him to loose agro
> > on something like a pull of 4 elites and plan accordingly.
>
> When your group doesn't know jack about aggro, everyone attacks his
> own targets, and the shaman spams earthshock: Yes. But show me
> a warrior who can hold aggro in that situation.
>
> When your party does at least have a basic clue and attacks one or
> maybe 2 targets and the shaman doesn't spam earthshock, holding
> aggro is no problem.
>
> > The druid
> > just doesn't have the tools to hold decent agro on that type of a
> > pull.
>
> I hear that a lot, and still I've been #1 of damage taken every time
> I did tanking in UBRS.

Minor interjection at this point: Damage taken does not translate 1:1 to
aggro holding capability. When I do a "normal" instance with our MC tank
def warrior, he never gets much damage simply because of his very high def
gear and capabilities. Blocks, Evades, Dodges don't get recorded. Yet he's
master of aggro.

So damage taken means exactly that, damage taken and not aggro bound. Not
that this invalidates anything of what you said otherwise but just as an
addenum.

CU

René

--
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 2:52:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Urbin wrote:
>
> I'm clear about 'me', what I am not sure is what my pet becomes if it no
> longer is the tank...
>

Pet is off-tank whose primary function is to draw off aggro from the
healer. That way, it stay close in behind to catch any mob who think
healer is a bit nausance.


>
> Fair enough except that the fleeing mob usually takes a while before coming
> back bringing his buddies... In any case, this is where I get most blame
> from. Most people seem to believe that it was the pet's (and thus my) fault
> that the adds were pulled.
>

Pet get blame because pet can't /yell F*$K-OFF when people started
looking for excuses :-) And you being too busy to defend yourself to
speak up for the pet :-)


>
> For this to work I will have to wait for the tank to have all the aggro
> before shooting my target, right? No more pulling for me, because otherwise
> all the adds will head towards me.
>

plenty of time to set traps, and then Aim


>
> What does it do until then? Just sit by my side? Or is there something
> useful for it?
>

umm, defend those cloth wearers? maybe 1.8 will come out with pet-dance
option


>
> How do I get the aggor away from the healer? The few times I tried to draw a
> mob away from the healer neither my pet's growl nor my attacks did seem to
> work. I know there is some shot I so far neglected to learn that creates
> 'threat' (I assume that would translate to aggro) - would it help? Or is
> dealing enough dps enough to eventually out-aggro the healer?
>

Nope, healer has to discipline himself to play dead (i.e. no shield, no
attempt to cast spell, maybe backing away). This allows time for your
pet to gain aggro. Plus, any druid worth his salt would have thorn the
pet for added affect of drawing aggro.


> And to raise another point: Often I just work in groups of 2 or 3 for harder
> quests (non-instance). I have often been in the situation that I draw a mob
> away from a warrior. Does that mean he is doing a lousy job at tanking or
> does it just mean he is not tanking at all, since we're not in a situation
> that would require it?
>

yeah, you get blame even when other don't do their job. Usually,
warrior in non-instances tend to think of themselves as dps-er :-)

as a warrior, I can out aggro other warriors (4 war/1 shaman) in
Stormgrade quests. So, it is not your fault.


> >
> > Is my opinion that important? :o )
>
> As a matter of fact: yes. You are one of maybe a handful of the regulars who
> seems to know what he is doing. If you enter into a debate with someone you
> usually argue your points well (even if I can't always follow all of your
> points lacking the experience with non-hunter classes and sometimes I am not
> sure which english skill/talent names would translate into which german one
> - I play deDE). You are persistent in your argument but polite. This is not
> the norm on usenet, so if I find such people, I pay attention to them.
>

Oh no, should have warn you before hand, do not feed Christian, his ego
already inflated as is :-) He will start doing that taruen dance again
at the top of mailbox in front of Ogimar.


>
> By the way, any of you on Dun Morogh (EU)?
>

nope, Garona (US), Skywall (US) and Eldre'thalas (US).
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 5:07:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Stavros Christoforou left a note on my windscreen which said:

> > The 3 add-ons my priest couldn't live without (in order):
> > CTRaidAssist
> > Decursive
> > Group Buttons
> >
>
> BTW, the new CTRA includes Decursive

Does it simply come with the mod Decursive as an additional add-on or
does CTRA some with an equivilant of Decursive.

I was checking through all the CTRA settings last night and couldn't
find anything about Debuffing at all.
--
Stoneskin

My personal army of Coalition members on Sunstrider are...

Necrofear - lvl 60 Undead Priest
Relinquished - lvl 22 Undead Warlock
Wartorn - lvl 21 Tauren Warrior
Jericho - lvl 19 Undead Mage
Jigen - lvl 12 Orc Rogue
Squeak - lvl 14 Troll Hunter
Stoneskin - lvl 8 Orc Shaman
Nightmane - lvl 2 Tauren Druid
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 5:39:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Urbin" <urbin@dunmorogh.eu> wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:20:15 +0200, Christian Stauffer
> <wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote:
>
>> Same here. My experience with hunters is quite good so far. But what
>> I have to second is that you feel they aren't really used to grouping.
>> Not too much communication, they "solo" the mobs (send the pet for
>> a mob that's not getting too much attention and kill it on their own).
>
> Now you got my attention :-)

*EEEK*

> Being a hunter myself I do tend to solo as much as I can (because I can solo
> a lot - one of the reasons I like my hunter so much). And as the hunter is
> my main, I have next to no experience grouping as another class.

Doesn't matter :-) If you're a smart guy, you know enough about aggro and
that it belongs to the tank, only by playing with your pet. I was surprised
how much basic stuff one can learn out of playing a hunter. The key is that
most hunters forget to stretch their knowledge over a 5man team. In a 5 man
team, your pet is no longer the tank, and you are no longer the healer. You
are "just" one of 2-3 damage dealers whose "only" purpose is to kill.

> My main problem in instances when grouped is that, if my pet is on a mob and
> the mob flees, my pet follows it and when returning pulls loads of other
> mobs. I try to keep an eye on my pet's target and use 'stunning shot' to
> stop it which usually works like a charm but every once in a while I do
> miss the moment... *wipe*

I can't understand that point. When a mob flees, kill it. When your pet,
which is chasing the fleeing mob, attract adds, then the fleeing mob
itself would have attracted them too. Not the pets fault.

> I can of course put away my pet but then I'd loose a considerable amount of
> dps, plus I found that I tend to draw away mobs from the other group members
> when shooting at them. Don't know if this is due to bad tanking or a mistake
> of my own.

The best thing you could do, in my opinion, is being MA (main assistant). The
tank tries to keep all mobs on him, you pick one with hunters mark, everyone
kills this one mob.

-> Everyone hits the same mob. This mob dies faster.
-> Dead mob = No hints from this mob
-> All damage dealers after 1 mob = This mob will not get enough time
to flee and attract others
-> The tank knows which mob to spend most of his attention and you are less
likely to get aggro on this mob

> My hunter has a Markmanship/Survival build (34/5) so I'm much better at
> distance dps than at melee dps.

That's the common situation :-)

> What I am getting down to is: What do 'good group hunters' do that makes you
> trust them because I would sure like to improve in my skills.

I use to trust everyone in the beginning. So I can tell you what not to do
when you would like that I do /clap emotes for you :-)

First: Understand that it's no longer 75% hunter & 25% pet. It's 15% hunter,
5% pet, 80% team mates. Your pet should only tank in emergencies, and your
mail armor can in no way compete with a warriors plate. In other words: you
don't want to get the mobs attention.
I guess I wrote all other stuff I think about this topic before in this
post.

Having that said, a pet or a hunter can save the day by getting the mobs
attention when they're on the healer and the tank isn't aware of it. A
hunter can do great crowd control. A hunter has very good ranged damage
without ever running out of mana (in other words: running out of mana
does not decrease his DPS to 0.2). There are a lot of situations where
a good hunter can save the party from wiping.

> Looking forward to hearing your suggestions.

Is my opinion that important? :o )

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (60) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Lonewalker - Striding Tauren (15) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 5:39:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:39:23 +0200, Christian Stauffer <wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote:
>
> > Being a hunter myself I do tend to solo as much as I can (because I can solo
> > a lot - one of the reasons I like my hunter so much). And as the hunter is
> > my main, I have next to no experience grouping as another class.
>
> Doesn't matter :-) If you're a smart guy, you know enough about aggro and
> that it belongs to the tank, only by playing with your pet.

Yepp. And from lurking here :-)

> In a 5 man team, your pet is no longer the tank, and you are no longer
> the healer. You are "just" one of 2-3 damage dealers whose "only" purpose
> is to kill.

I'm clear about 'me', what I am not sure is what my pet becomes if it no
longer is the tank...

> > My main problem in instances when grouped is that, if my pet is on a mob and
> > the mob flees, my pet follows it and when returning pulls loads of other
> > mobs.
>
> I can't understand that point. When a mob flees, kill it. When your pet,
> which is chasing the fleeing mob, attract adds, then the fleeing mob
> itself would have attracted them too. Not the pets fault.

Fair enough except that the fleeing mob usually takes a while before coming
back bringing his buddies... In any case, this is where I get most blame
from. Most people seem to believe that it was the pet's (and thus my) fault
that the adds were pulled.

> The best thing you could do, in my opinion, is being MA (main assistant). The
> tank tries to keep all mobs on him, you pick one with hunters mark, everyone
> kills this one mob.

Fair enough.
>
> -> Everyone hits the same mob. This mob dies faster.
> -> Dead mob = No hints from this mob
> -> All damage dealers after 1 mob = This mob will not get enough time
> to flee and attract others
> -> The tank knows which mob to spend most of his attention and you are less
> likely to get aggro on this mob

For this to work I will have to wait for the tank to have all the aggro
before shooting my target, right? No more pulling for me, because otherwise
all the adds will head towards me.

> First: Understand that it's no longer 75% hunter & 25% pet. It's 15% hunter,
> 5% pet, 80% team mates.

Fairly obvious :-)

> Your pet should only tank in emergencies,

What does it do until then? Just sit by my side? Or is there something
useful for it?

> mail armor can in no way compete with a warriors plate. In other words: you
> don't want to get the mobs attention.

Fine with me, I have no aspirations to out-tank any warriors (or druids for
that matter ;-)

> Having that said, a pet or a hunter can save the day by getting the mobs
> attention when they're on the healer and the tank isn't aware of it.

How do I get the aggor away from the healer? The few times I tried to draw a
mob away from the healer neither my pet's growl nor my attacks did seem to
work. I know there is some shot I so far neglected to learn that creates
'threat' (I assume that would translate to aggro) - would it help? Or is
dealing enough dps enough to eventually out-aggro the healer?

And to raise another point: Often I just work in groups of 2 or 3 for harder
quests (non-instance). I have often been in the situation that I draw a mob
away from a warrior. Does that mean he is doing a lousy job at tanking or
does it just mean he is not tanking at all, since we're not in a situation
that would require it?

> > Looking forward to hearing your suggestions.
>
> Is my opinion that important? :o )

As a matter of fact: yes. You are one of maybe a handful of the regulars who
seems to know what he is doing. If you enter into a debate with someone you
usually argue your points well (even if I can't always follow all of your
points lacking the experience with non-hunter classes and sometimes I am not
sure which english skill/talent names would translate into which german one
- I play deDE). You are persistent in your argument but polite. This is not
the norm on usenet, so if I find such people, I pay attention to them.

Looking forward to my next group in order to try out some of these hints.

By the way, any of you on Dun Morogh (EU)?

Thanks
Urbin

--
Urbin (49), Dwarven Hunter (PvE) @dunmorogh.de
Gera (14), Human Paladin (PvE) @dunmorogh.de
Sneak (7), Troll Rogue (PvE) @dunmorogh.de
Gorosh (5), Tauren Druid (PvP) @sunstrider.uk
August 24, 2005 5:39:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Urbin wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:39:23 +0200, Christian Stauffer <wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote:

>> Your pet should only tank in emergencies,
>
>
> What does it do until then? Just sit by my side? Or is there something
> useful for it?

You can use it to add some DPS where it's needed. You can use the pet to
pull a mob off a healer (works better in some circumstances than
others--for example, I have had good luck intercepting mobs who just
decided to kill the healer and are on their way to do so). You can even
use Eyes of the Beast to pull things out of a room and into the waiting
arms of the party.

On the other hand, when I was in a five-man Stratholme run to get the
Hammersmith training for a friend, the hunter who was with us made most
of the run without her pet. She summoned the pet temporarily in certain
spots where we knew that every bit of DPS was needed; the rest of the
time she was purely an archer who could set traps. And a mighty good
one, I must say. I was playing a mage, so she and I were the damage
crew. She was great, though she grumbled about Volley every time I did
an AOE :-).

>> mail armor can in no way compete with a warriors plate. In other words: you
>> don't want to get the mobs attention.
>
>
> Fine with me, I have no aspirations to out-tank any warriors (or druids for
> that matter ;-)
>
>
>> Having that said, a pet or a hunter can save the day by getting the mobs
>> attention when they're on the healer and the tank isn't aware of it.
>
>
> How do I get the aggor away from the healer? The few times I tried to draw a
> mob away from the healer neither my pet's growl nor my attacks did seem to
> work. I know there is some shot I so far neglected to learn that creates
> 'threat' (I assume that would translate to aggro) - would it help? Or is
> dealing enough dps enough to eventually out-aggro the healer?

The shot is Distracting Shot. It's basically a polite suggestion that
the mob might want to consider paying attention to you. Combine it with
the pet and a fast series of your special shots (to get that DPS up) and
you can sometimes get a mob off a healer.
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 5:46:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Rene" <invalid@email.addr> wrote:

> "Christian Stauffer" <wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote:
>
>> I hear that a lot, and still I've been #1 of damage taken every time
>> I did tanking in UBRS.
>
> Minor interjection at this point: Damage taken does not translate 1:1 to
> aggro holding capability. When I do a "normal" instance with our MC tank
> def warrior, he never gets much damage simply because of his very high def
> gear and capabilities. Blocks, Evades, Dodges don't get recorded. Yet he's
> master of aggro.
>
> So damage taken means exactly that, damage taken and not aggro bound. Not
> that this invalidates anything of what you said otherwise but just as an
> addenum.

I'm aware of that. But with 8k unbuffed armor (drool, but it's not really
much for a 60 feral druid) and 376 defense I have more damage reduction
than most of my servers warriors, so it's quite comparable :o )
I have about 1.8% incoming crits when tanking UBRS, the PvP specced
warriors get at least 5%.

Damage taken is a bit useless as aggro indicator when comparing between
a plate wearer and a clothie of course.

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (60) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Lonewalker - Striding Tauren (15) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 5:52:35 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Hello,


> My main problem in instances when grouped is that, if my pet is on a mob and
> the mob flees, my pet follows it and when returning pulls loads of other
> mobs. I try to keep an eye on my pet's target and use 'stunning shot' to
> stop it which usually works like a charm but every once in a while I do
> miss the moment... *wipe*
> I can of course put away my pet but then I'd loose a considerable amount of
> dps, plus I found that I tend to draw away mobs from the other group members
> when shooting at them. Don't know if this is due to bad tanking or a mistake
> of my own.

That s what I (and that s my way of playin maybe others have other
style) do :

- always keep an eye on your pet (seems obvious but it s really important).
- in instance (and for me everytime), always put your pet in passive
mode, this will prevent it to chase everybody.
- as soon as you send your pet to attack and if you know that the mob
can fly away, set your pet in defensive mode.

- if you see that your pet is going to far following a mob, just click
on the passive mode button and it will be back to you (that s the why of
going to defensive mode just before).

- If you forgot to call back your pet, click on the stay button !!!!
this will prevent it to bring back the aggroed mobs ! When everything is
calm for you, call it back checking with your mini map if it is followed
by any mobs. You can even let it where it is, go far away from it and
when it disappeared call it back. I do this also when jumping or taking
elevator to avoid my pet going everywhere to follow me.


I really like the hunter and a group with a hunter is an other 'person'
in the group with the pet. Very important. For example, when you reach a
boss with 2 bodyguards (or more, but not too much :)  send your pet on
the boss, kill the bodyguards and normally the whole group should be
ready to attack the boss alone now.


Just my point of view :) 

Dlp
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 6:12:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Christian Stauffer <wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote:
> I can't understand that point. When a mob flees, kill it. When your pet,
> which is chasing the fleeing mob, attract adds, then the fleeing mob
> itself would have attracted them too. Not the pets fault.

Not always. I've seen mobs die in spitting distance to their buddies
without them noticing. But when someone proceeded to loot it, he got
aggro immediatly. The same would have happened with a pet, I guess,
unless the pet gets much less aggro than a player.

--
Erick
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 6:22:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Stoneskin wrote:
> Stavros Christoforou left a note on my windscreen which said:
>
>
>>>The 3 add-ons my priest couldn't live without (in order):
>>> CTRaidAssist
>>> Decursive
>>> Group Buttons
>>>
>>
>>BTW, the new CTRA includes Decursive
>
>
> Does it simply come with the mod Decursive as an additional add-on or
> does CTRA some with an equivilant of Decursive.
>
> I was checking through all the CTRA settings last night and couldn't
> find anything about Debuffing at all.

It includes decursive, the full add-on. Just means one less thing to DL :) 
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 8:02:12 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Urbin wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:39:23 +0200, Christian Stauffer <wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote:
>
>> The best thing you could do, in my opinion, is being MA (main assistant). The
>> tank tries to keep all mobs on him, you pick one with hunters mark, everyone
>> kills this one mob.
>
>
> Fair enough.
>
>> -> Everyone hits the same mob. This mob dies faster.
>> -> Dead mob = No hints from this mob
>> -> All damage dealers after 1 mob = This mob will not get enough time
>> to flee and attract others
>> -> The tank knows which mob to spend most of his attention and you are less
>> likely to get aggro on this mob
>
>
> For this to work I will have to wait for the tank to have all the aggro
> before shooting my target, right? No more pulling for me, because otherwise
> all the adds will head towards me.

Not necessarily. The warrior can charge the target you shot before it
reaches you and use a demo shout to get the initial attention of all
mobs that follow. The followers will turn their attention to the
warrior and let you finish your target. You may have to give the
warrior some time to build aggro on your mob before you do further
damage if the mob could hit you hard.

> By the way, any of you on Dun Morogh (EU)?

I have a Tauren Druid on DM because some office mates play there, but
haven't logged in for weeks now :-(. Say hello to any <Oldtimers Inc>
you meet and tell them Erich sent you ;-). You'll find René there,
too, he's a regular poster in this group.
--
Erich
Kroagg <Cracked Sash Inc> - L42 Orc Warrior - Sunstrider
Rattlehead <Cracked Sash Inc> - L18 Undead Priest - Sunstrider
Megamix <Oldtimers Inc> - L19 Tauren Druid - Dun Morogh
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 8:28:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Urbin" <urbin@dunmorogh.eu> wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:39:23 +0200, Christian Stauffer
> <wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote:
>
>> -> Everyone hits the same mob. This mob dies faster.
>> -> Dead mob = No hints from this mob
>> -> All damage dealers after 1 mob = This mob will not get enough time
>> to flee and attract others
>> -> The tank knows which mob to spend most of his attention and you are less
>> likely to get aggro on this mob
>
> For this to work I will have to wait for the tank to have all the aggro
> before shooting my target, right? No more pulling for me, because otherwise
> all the adds will head towards me.

Depends :-) A hunter pulling has some advantages. I'm a huge fan of letting the
tank pull, because the one that pulls grabs a (very very small) amount of aggro
on all mobs of the pull. That's good when the tank pulls, when someeone else
pulls it means the tank has to gather all the mobs first.
Opinions vary, that's also true for other classes: Does the mage pull with a
polymorph (sheep) before or after the warrior charges?
The best thing would be to just ask the tank whether he wants you to
pull (and set traps) or if he prefers to pull by himself.

However, this MA tactic never really happened in a team I've been in. It
*might* be that people see how much easier it is in the harder 5 man
instances, but I currently doubt it. So, to be honest, you most likely
won't offend too much people if you just attack the nearest mob just
as everyone else does :-)
It's just that having a hunter who can place a fat ret arrow over a mobs
head basically makes it a lot easier for everyone to melt one mob after
the other.

>> Your pet should only tank in emergencies,
>
> What does it do until then? Just sit by my side? Or is there something
> useful for it?

Hrm... Deal a bit of damage? Maybe offtank if the group pulled more than
the tank can handle. And put it in the druids range so he can /hug it :-)

>> mail armor can in no way compete with a warriors plate. In other words: you
>> don't want to get the mobs attention.
>
> Fine with me, I have no aspirations to out-tank any warriors (or druids for
> that matter ;-)

It's just what I see often when grouping with hunters: The hunter sends his
pet for a mob, no matter which mob the rest of the group is fighting, and
basically soloes it. That's both wasted healer mana (if the healer decides
to heal the pet) and wasted DPS (because the hunter does not help to kill
the currently melted mob). And, if the hunter has a high DPS, it's
increasing the risk of having 2 mobs fleeing at the same time.

>> Having that said, a pet or a hunter can save the day by getting the mobs
>> attention when they're on the healer and the tank isn't aware of it.
>
> How do I get the aggor away from the healer? The few times I tried to draw a
> mob away from the healer neither my pet's growl nor my attacks did seem to
> work. I know there is some shot I so far neglected to learn that creates
> 'threat' (I assume that would translate to aggro) - would it help?

Hrm.. growl *should* work. My own hunter is not that far yet :-)
And there's that shot you mentioned, which generates a lot of aggro and
should be enough to get mobs away from the healer.

Basically it's best to let the mobs hit the best armored member of the
party, which ideally is the tank. I get always a bit mad if people
pull mobs off me when I tank.
But as soon as the healer is under attack, noone will mind if you
declare yourself or the pet as offtank.

> Or is
> dealing enough dps enough to eventually out-aggro the healer?

Basically: yes. Think about the situation: When a mob decides to run for
the healer, it means the healers aggro isn't a lot higher than of the one
player the mob was after before. It means the mob just switched from
another player to the healer.
If you see a mob standing there and hitting the healer, you can't be sure
about it. But imagine: A cloth wearing healer just CAN'T create lots of
aggro, he'll die too fast. The mob can't be beating the healer for a long
time, he'll be already dead if that was the case. So, it can't take too
much to peel it of him.

I can't remember seeing a mob with less than 90% health running for a healer
since quite a while.

> And to raise another point: Often I just work in groups of 2 or 3 for harder
> quests (non-instance). I have often been in the situation that I draw a mob
> away from a warrior. Does that mean he is doing a lousy job at tanking or
> does it just mean he is not tanking at all, since we're not in a situation
> that would require it?

It means he built up less threat than you did, and I can't know whether
it happens by accident or not :-) If he's after 3 mobs and you do a bit
much damage on one he didn't really touch yet, it's likely it'll aggro
you.
For doing non-elite quests with 2-3 people, there's usually no need for a
tank.

>> Is my opinion that important? :o )
>
> As a matter of fact: yes. You are one of maybe a handful of the regulars who
> seems to know what he is doing.

*seems*?

> If you enter into a debate with someone you
> usually argue your points well (even if I can't always follow all of your
> points lacking the experience with non-hunter classes and sometimes I am not
> sure which english skill/talent names would translate into which german one
> - I play deDE).

/thanks
/shy

> You are persistent in your argument but polite. This is not
> the norm on usenet, so if I find such people, I pay attention to them.

Well I'm not always polite, but I usually try to be.

> Looking forward to my next group in order to try out some of these hints.
>
> By the way, any of you on Dun Morogh (EU)?

I'm afraid a lot of agws EU players have come to Sunstrider :o )
Want to join? We have about 100 members ranging from level 20 to 60,
and could use some more hunters. Just make sure you level to 60
within the next 30 days!

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (60) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Lonewalker - Striding Tauren (15) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 8:50:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Frank E" <fakeaddress@hotmail.com> wrote:

> You left off the hardest part on something like a 4 elite pull. Just
> trying to keep track of which mobs you have and haven't 'tickled' yet.
> <g>

That's easy: Those without a fairie fire debuff need more "love" than
the others. After that, I just use swipe (cleave) which affects most
of the mobs.
To be honest it's far from being easy. Especially when there are
elites and non-elites, and you just don't care about the non-elites
because they'll be nuked by AoE anyway. If I see I can't hold aggro
on all mobs, I'll just ignore the "main" mob (he'll die quite fast)
and focus on the other 3.

> I think part of my problem atm is that our dungeon group is taking on
> things thar are a bit above our level. Things like RFD with a high 30s
> group (my warrior was 40), Uldaman with about a lvl 44 group (warrior
> was 46 though).

Uldaman with 44 is an achievement (if we talk about the end boss,
Archaedras). I tried it with my standard party at that time: 3x shaman,
1 warrior (but one who doesn't like tanking and isn't experienced) and
me. We had a fun (yet challenging) run to the boss, but he completely
destroyed us. We went in there again 2 levels later and killed him,
but I bet it was mainly because we had a lot of luck and 3 shaman.
They can take quite some beating, and seriously enhance the parties
healer mana.
Tactic: The warrior tanks archaedras, I heal the warrior, the 3
shammies kill all the adds, heal themselves and plant mana tide
totems by me. When the 2 stone guards came, I had full mana
(+ innervate) and was able to keep people alive long enough
to kill him.

> Life as a rogue was much easier, but not nearly as much fun.

Agreed. Tanking is hard work, but it's also a lot fun.

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (60) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Lonewalker - Striding Tauren (15) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 8:50:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:50:38 +0200, "Christian Stauffer"
<wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote:

>"Frank E" <fakeaddress@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Uldaman with 44 is an achievement (if we talk about the end boss,
>Archaedras). I tried it with my standard party at that time: 3x shaman,
>1 warrior (but one who doesn't like tanking and isn't experienced) and
>me. We had a fun (yet challenging) run to the boss, but he completely
>destroyed us.

I don't think we could have done it at 44 without an almost ideal
group mix. Warrior, shaman, 2 resto druids and a rogue. Rogue was only
41 so we were lacking DPS. We needed the two healers and even then we
wiped twice before we got it right.

First wipe, I was damaging the boss mob too quickly and the group
hadn't killed off the dorfs before the 2 stone guards animated. Second
wipe, I turn off attack when the big guy is at 60% (shield block, demo
shout and thorns to hold agro), rest of the group leisurely kills the
dorfs but we wipe when I use AoE taunt on the stone guards and the
healers can't keep up with the damage I'm taking from all 3.

Third try, we let the shaman and rogue, with a druid healing, take out
one golem while I tanked the 2nd one and the boss (with the 2nd druid
healing me). It was still a near thing, my healer was staying at full
mana just healing me against the boss but she was oom with me tanking
two, by the time the rest of the group had killed their golem. The
other druid came back just in time to take up heals after they got
done killing their's.

> We went in there again 2 levels later and killed him,
>but I bet it was mainly because we had a lot of luck and 3 shaman.
>They can take quite some beating, and seriously enhance the parties
>healer mana.
>Tactic: The warrior tanks archaedras, I heal the warrior, the 3
>shammies kill all the adds, heal themselves and plant mana tide
>totems by me. When the 2 stone guards came, I had full mana
>(+ innervate) and was able to keep people alive long enough
>to kill him.

I've done it with 2 different groups now over the last week and there
seems to be a couple of things to watch out for in that final fight.

- Don't fight or especially heal from within the inner circle. His AoE
stun only works within that circle.

- Once Archaedras (gonna assume you spelled that right <g>) starts
summoning dorfs, he'll keep summoning them all at a steady rate even
if he isn't taking damage. ... but he won't summon those two
stoneguards until he gets down to about 25%. You can kill the dorfs,
let everyone med back to full and then knock him down enough to
animate the stone guards.

- Expect those two stone guards to hit harder than the boss and plan
accordingly.

Rgds, Frank
August 25, 2005 12:49:42 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

"Urbin" <urbin@dunmorogh.eu> wrote in message
news:slrndgosem.fff.urbin@stinky.trash.net...
> On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:39:23 +0200, Christian Stauffer
> <wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote:
>>
>> > Being a hunter myself I do tend to solo as much as I can (because I can
>> > solo
>> > a lot - one of the reasons I like my hunter so much). And as the hunter
>> > is
>> > my main, I have next to no experience grouping as another class.
>>
>> Doesn't matter :-) If you're a smart guy, you know enough about aggro
>> and
>> that it belongs to the tank, only by playing with your pet.
>
> Yepp. And from lurking here :-)


Butting in here, but I can tell you the rookie mistakes I see when grouping
with hunters who obviously soloed most of the way.

For the most part as a healer, I love hunters in groups. The good ones
provide a steady and reliable stream of DPS and, with the DPS being split
between them and their pet, usually don't pull aggro. I've been in parties
where I think the only time I ever healed a hunter was from AoE damage. They
also have a fairly varied arsenal of tools that aren't called upon all that
often, but can be truly helpful at the right times.

However, the soloed-to-60 argument is not a myth. I see common mistakes
alot.

a) Pulling adds when trying to get range. This is the most common. Battle
location can shift rapidly in places with Strat, Scholo. Hunter's have the
disadvantage of needing a fair chunk of range to do real DPS - too often
times they'll move to get that range and pull another group while at it.
I'd say before firing any shot, look at the scene and figure out where it's
safe to move and more importantly, where not even if that means you'll now
be meleeing.

b) Breaking shackles/polys on adds. I see it all the time in scarlet strat
where a bunch of single undead patrol and respawn often and randomly. A
hunter it slightly away from the party firing away, a patrol stumbles along
and hits the hunter first (not the hunter's fault, would have hit the main
party in a few secs regardless). No problem, I pop a shackle. But
inexplicably the hunter will have stopped firing away at his original target
and is now meleeing away at the add, breaking the shackle. I've no idea
what the hunter's thinking. His melee isn't going to dent the elite. All
he's doing is adding to his aggro that *could have* been pulled by a single
arrow from a warrior. Instead he's breaking shackles/polys and the
warrior's now gonna need to run over to grab aggro. Hunter's have mail,
they can take a few shots. If convinced no one's gonna notice them getting
beat up I usually advise them to keep autoshooting what they were while
letting the party know there's an add on them and need help.

c) Getting feisty when people break their freeze trap. I know freeze trap's
cool and all and in some cases/instances it's really a godsend for a group,
but when fighting undead and/or humanoids shackle, poly and sap are far
superior. They last 45 seconds or so rather than 20, and the first two can
be reapplied. Classic case is a four-mob pull. Two mobs are shackled
and/or poly'd. Two come running. One hits freeze trap. Now, a 10man raid
doesn't need to take on one mob at a time, so often the freeze-trapped mob
is hit so the party can kill two. And seemingly inevitably, the hunter
starts complaining about breaking his freeze trap. Probably cause he's
taken so much grief on breaking poly's in the past. Freeze trap isn't
always needed. When it is needed, it's invaluable.. but not always needed.

d) Sloppy tab-targetting. Unless it's a rare slip up, of which all classes
have their fair share, the truly group-rookie hunters have been known to
tab-target unrelated mobs or previously-neutral mobs when autofiring. That
can turn ugly.

e) The quick feign-deathers. If a hunters off on his own getting beat up,
and I'm spamming heals on him til a tank can head over, the hunter needs to
realize that while "yes", he can feign death and fix his problems... the
moment he does so everything that was ontop of him is now making a beeline
to me and my cloth armor from all the healing aggro I built up. Sometimes
feign death is going to be needed - it's an awesome skill. However the
hunters who soloed to 60 need to remember that, unlike when soloing, feign
death is not a get-out-of-jail free card... it's gonna have repurcussions to
the healers and consequently, the whole party. Not saying don't use FD,
just think for a moment what will happen next before using it - particularly
if a tank is nowhere near the line between the hunter and the healer.
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 9:52:24 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Urbin wrote:
> However, I've also experienced cases where I drew a mob from the tank that
> was too much on me and the healer failed to heal me - for whatever reasons.

You need to understand that hunters and rogues are dead last on the
healing priority list. Healing/Battle Rezzing priority goes Main Tank,
Healers, Casters, everyone else. Obviously, if the tank is doing fine
and you're going south, you're going to get healed. But if I've got to
choose between you and someone else, well...good luck. ;-)

Regards,
Noal
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 9:59:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Christian Stauffer wrote:
> "collection2002" <linch9@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Oh no, should have warn you before hand, do not feed Christian, his ego
> > already inflated as is :-)
>
> You need a big solid ego when insisting on being a tank as a druid,
> while all people tell you what a bullshit that is. Look at Noal :o )

Hey, now! I resemble that remark!

> Never done that. Druids in rogue gear get enough attention on my
> server, there's no need to swing my bones on the mailbox.

I tool about in my Crit gear, too. I usually don't wear my healer gear
until I get to the instance. Usually, the biggest interest I get is
other druids wanting to see my two sets of tanking gear so they have a
shopping list. :-)

Regards,
Noal
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 11:03:56 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:02:12 +0200, Erich <kroagg@sunstrider.europe> wrote:
> Urbin wrote:
>
> > By the way, any of you on Dun Morogh (EU)?
>
> I have a Tauren Druid on DM because some office mates play there, but
> haven't logged in for weeks now :-(. Say hello to any <Oldtimers Inc>
> you meet and tell them Erich sent you ;-). You'll find René there,
> too, he's a regular poster in this group.

Ah, my troll rogue has been unused for much longer than that. But when
I use him next I'll make sure to greet the <Oldtimers Inc> from you.

Urbin


--
Urbin (49), Dwarven Hunter (PvE) @dunmorogh.de
Gera (14), Human Paladin (PvE) @dunmorogh.de
Sneak (7), Troll Rogue (PvE) @dunmorogh.de
Gorosh (5), Tauren Druid (PvP) @sunstrider.uk
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 11:12:21 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:28:36 +0200, Christian Stauffer <wildcard666@bluewin.ch> wrote:
>
> Hrm... Deal a bit of damage? Maybe offtank if the group pulled more than
> the tank can handle. And put it in the druids range so he can /hug it :-)

so he can both steal the aggro off the main tank and my pet's affection off
me? :-)

> It's just what I see often when grouping with hunters: The hunter sends his
> pet for a mob, no matter which mob the rest of the group is fighting, and
> basically soloes it.

yepp, i've done that occasionally :-)

> That's both wasted healer mana (if the healer decides
> to heal the pet) and wasted DPS (because the hunter does not help to kill
> the currently melted mob). And, if the hunter has a high DPS, it's
> increasing the risk of having 2 mobs fleeing at the same time.

makes sense. I'll try to stick to this in the future.

> For doing non-elite quests with 2-3 people, there's usually no need for a
> tank.

no wonder I have seen little of it then :-)

> > As a matter of fact: yes. You are one of maybe a handful of the regulars who
> > seems to know what he is doing.
>
> *seems*?

so much for the /shy below ;-)

> > You are persistent in your argument but polite. This is not
> > the norm on usenet, so if I find such people, I pay attention to them.
>
> Well I'm not always polite, but I usually try to be.

I had 'but usually polite' in there but then decided to be nice :->

> > By the way, any of you on Dun Morogh (EU)?
>
> I'm afraid a lot of agws EU players have come to Sunstrider :o )
> Want to join? We have about 100 members ranging from level 20 to 60,
> and could use some more hunters. Just make sure you level to 60
> within the next 30 days!

That's why I started my troll tauren druid quite some time ago. I was
experimenting around with various classes, races and pve/pvp. I figured it
would be nice to play with the knolwedgable guys from here. However, I
intend to first concentrate on my main - I liked him best and I'll be lucky
if he reaches lvl60 withing the next 30 days as my girl friend's exams will
be over soon which means a lot less time to play wow :-/

In any case, once I get back to playing Gorosh again I'll be sure to /wave
at you should I ever pass one of you.

Urbin

--
Urbin (49), Dwarven Hunter (PvE) @dunmorogh.de
Gera (14), Human Paladin (PvE) @dunmorogh.de
Sneak (7), Troll Rogue (PvE) @dunmorogh.de
Gorosh (5), Tauren Druid (PvP) @sunstrider.uk
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 11:27:53 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Noal McDonald wrote:
>
> I tool about in my Crit gear, too. I usually don't wear my healer gear
> until I get to the instance. Usually, the biggest interest I get is
> other druids wanting to see my two sets of tanking gear so they have a
> shopping list. :-)
>

I've noticed both you and Christian carries multiple gears. Is that a
norm? I'm not so concern about weapons but for armors since obviously,
there are more pieces to carry.
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 11:30:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 20:49:42 GMT, steve <anon@anon.com> wrote:

> Butting in here, but I can tell you the rookie mistakes I see when grouping
> with hunters who obviously soloed most of the way.

Thanks. exactly what I've been looking for and - I hate to admit - I was not
aware of some of them.

> They also have a fairly varied arsenal of tools that aren't called upon
> all that often, but can be truly helpful at the right times.

What would those be?

> However, the soloed-to-60 argument is not a myth. I see common mistakes
> alot.
>
> a) Pulling adds when trying to get range. This is the most common.

Yepp. Happens to me more than I would like. I usually try to set my 'detect
X' to the type of mob we're fighting, so I can see whether the are behind me
is free of them. But still, occasionally it happens. I guess I'll have to
settle for meeleeing at less DPS in some cases.

> b) Breaking shackles/polys on adds.

I plead not guilty. What happens more often is that I send my pet to a mob
and while it's on the way a mage sheeps it and before I can react my pet
breaks the sheep. It usually happens in groups where - despite my tries to
coordinate the attack - people don't do what we agreed on. Another problem
is that once I shot a 'snake bite' on a target, there is dot being done and
if a mage then sheeps that target the next dot-tick unsheeps it again.

I try to counter theese problems by announcing my targets using 'mark of the
hunter' but it appears, many non-hunters do not seem to realise what the
pink arrow means or just ignore it in the heat of the battle.

I guess what it all comes down to is on picking the target to melt and leave
all the others to the tank (and maybe shackles/sheep/...). I'll try to work
on that.

> c) Getting feisty when people break their freeze trap.

Nah, I screw up enough to not get upset if someone else does something I
hadn't planned for.

> And seemingly inevitably, the hunter starts complaining about breaking
> his freeze trap. Probably cause he's taken so much grief on breaking
> poly's in the past.

Has exactly the opposite effect on me. Took so much grief, I know that it's
useless to flame someone for it and only upsets them.

> d) Sloppy tab-targetting. Unless it's a rare slip up, of which all classes
> have their fair share, the truly group-rookie hunters have been known to
> tab-target unrelated mobs or previously-neutral mobs when autofiring. That
> can turn ugly.

yepp, happened to me occasionally but not for a long time, I'm glad to say.

> e) The quick feign-deathers. However the hunters need to remember that
> feign death is not a get-out-of-jail free card... it's gonna have
> repurcussions to the healers and consequently, the whole party. Not
> saying don't use FD, just think for a moment what will happen next before
> using it - particularly if a tank is nowhere near the line between the
> hunter and the healer.

I can see how that is a problem. I usually only try to resort to FD once I
am the last man standing - which happens occasionally if I fail to protect
the healer and as I'm a fair way from the group, the others including my pet
go down first...

However, I've also experienced cases where I drew a mob from the tank that
was too much on me and the healer failed to heal me - for whatever reasons.
In such cases I would probably try to FD before dying and then instantly
get back up to try to hit a mob heading for the healer again, hoping I can
kill it before it gets back to me. This trick of course only works on mobs
on very low healt - where the duel mob agains me is a close call - and I
only pull this off on those situations. Needless to say, it still
occasionally fails.

Would you advise against this and take the hunter's death in order to
protect the healer? I never really gave this much thought but can see that
it might actually be better for the group, though not necessarily for me :-)

Cheers
Urbin

--
Urbin (49), Dwarven Hunter (PvE) @dunmorogh.de
Gera (14), Human Paladin (PvE) @dunmorogh.de
Sneak (7), Troll Rogue (PvE) @dunmorogh.de
Gorosh (5), Tauren Druid (PvP) @sunstrider.uk
!