Fist weapons still no good for rogue?

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

I read a post a while ago about fist weapons and rogues - does it still
apply that they're no use? As far as I understand, the only reason you
want a fast weapon as a rogue is if it's a dagger, for backstabbing.
Other than that, am I right in thinking that a slow main hand weapon
would be better in that the extra attacks like SS would benefit from
the slow weapon's higher damage?

So the trouble is, the fist weapon is fast, but can't backstab - does
this make it useless, sub-optimal, or ok within limitations. My rogue
sure does look great with dual fist weapons, but if she's not going to
do herself justice, should I just fall back on the standard options?

And if they are useless at the moment, has there been any hint from
Blizzard that they're going to make them useful at all?

Thanks

___
Neil
aka HighVis
9 answers Last reply
More about fist weapons good rogue
  1. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    I suppose some very fast fist weapons could lay a hurting on someone if
    you coat them with stackable poisons. And hits are supposed to disrupt
    casting, so the more hits the more disruption to a casters routine.

    This wouldn't be a main "stance" for a rogue, but could lead into
    combat with some tenderizing action. (Hopefully the 1 sec cooldown for
    weapon swap (new for 1.7, and 1.5 sec for non-rogue) won't affect this
    kind of strategy too much.)
  2. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    Neil Jones wrote:
    > I read a post a while ago about fist weapons and rogues - does it still
    > apply that they're no use? As far as I understand, the only reason you
    > want a fast weapon as a rogue is if it's a dagger, for backstabbing.
    > Other than that, am I right in thinking that a slow main hand weapon
    > would be better in that the extra attacks like SS would benefit from
    > the slow weapon's higher damage?

    You don't want a fast weapon for backstabbing, no no no!

    I see what you're trying to say though.. a weapon in the 1.80 sort of
    are you'd never use _unless_ it was a dagger..

    But fist weapons, yep, I can't see a lot of good in them. Eskhandar's
    Right Claw ( http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=18203 )
    dropped the last time my guild went to MC, and one of my fellow rogues
    later opined that he'd have loved to have gotten it. ARGH, NO! My quick
    calculation had me doing 70-80 more damage per SS with my trusty old
    Thrash Blade than this epic claw.

    I guess a fast high-damage fist weapon would be fine for offhand use.
    Eskhandar's Left Claw, for instance, speed 1.50 and 48.0dps, if you can
    put up with the bleed proc that will cause all the same irritations as
    the Barman Shanker's proc.

    Cheers!
    David...
  3. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:33:48 +0100, Neil Jones
    <neil@designumbrella.com> wrote:

    >I read a post a while ago about fist weapons and rogues - does it still
    >apply that they're no use? As far as I understand, the only reason you
    >want a fast weapon as a rogue is if it's a dagger, for backstabbing.
    >Other than that, am I right in thinking that a slow main hand weapon
    >would be better in that the extra attacks like SS would benefit from
    >the slow weapon's higher damage?
    >
    >So the trouble is, the fist weapon is fast, but can't backstab - does
    >this make it useless, sub-optimal, or ok within limitations. My rogue
    >sure does look great with dual fist weapons, but if she's not going to
    >do herself justice, should I just fall back on the standard options?
    >
    >And if they are useless at the moment, has there been any hint from
    >Blizzard that they're going to make them useful at all?

    If we are talking main hand, then rogues want slow weapons. However a
    few abilities require daggers, and daggers are not slow (slowest AFAIK
    is speed 2.0), but the dagger rogues still want the _slowest_ daggers
    they can get.

    The problem with fist weapons is that they are fast (like daggers),
    but cannot be used to enable attacks like backstab (unlike daggers).
    Thus you can say that fist weapons carry all the bad of the daggers
    and none of the good - this coupled with an extremely low number of
    fist weapons in the game makes it the worst (or 2. after thrown
    weapons) weapon type in the game.


    If you want off hand weapons though, the only requirements is good
    stats, high dps and fast speed (fast = more poison procs). Here fist
    weapons could be usefull, but are again limited by their limited
    numbers - however, if you find a good one then, by all means, go for
    it. Eg. Eskhandar's Left Claw <http://www.thottbot.com/?i=39993> is
    not a bad off hand (but you can get better).


    Ps. Surfing Thott I just noticed a few new fist weapons - apparently
    these new ones stops the "fist = fast" trend, and frankly looks to be
    _superb_ roge main hands:
    Grand Marshal's Right Hand Blade <http://www.thottbot.com/?i=38114>
    Claw of the Black Drake <http://www.thottbot.com/?i=44756>

    Of course, the first requires you to PvP like a nutter to climb to the
    rank where you can get it, and the second drops off of Firemaw -
    apparently the fourth boss in Blackwing Lair.

    --
    Regards
    Simon Nejmann
  4. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    Simon Nejmann wrote:
    > Ps. Surfing Thott I just noticed a few new fist weapons - apparently
    > these new ones stops the "fist = fast" trend, and frankly looks to be
    > _superb_ roge main hands:
    > Grand Marshal's Right Hand Blade <http://www.thottbot.com/?i=38114>

    Well, the stats on that one are identical to the other Grand Marshal's
    weapons.

    http://www.thottbot.com/?i=38107
    http://www.thottbot.com/?i=38116

    So it would be great, but since you'd probably already have 300 skill
    with one handed sword or mace, you'd be more likely to pick one of
    those. :-)

    > Claw of the Black Drake <http://www.thottbot.com/?i=44756>

    Now that's a nice piece of work. And as someone commented on there,
    apparently it looks great, too!

    Cheers!
    David...
  5. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    In article <43065e02$0$8654$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, David Carson
    <david@eldergothSPAMTRAP.com> wrote:

    > Neil Jones wrote:
    > > As far as I understand, the only reason you
    > > want a fast weapon as a rogue is if it's a dagger, for backstabbing.

    > You don't want a fast weapon for backstabbing, no no no!
    >
    > I see what you're trying to say though.. a weapon in the 1.80 sort of
    > are you'd never use _unless_ it was a dagger..

    That's exactly what I did say. Read the sentence again ;) The
    backstabbing is the key, not the speed.

    So, according to Thotbott, the only decent fist weapon is a L60 epic.
    Great.

    /me goes sulkily back to sword/dagger, dagger/dagger combos.

    ___
    Neil
    aka HighVis
  6. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    Neil Jones wrote:
    >
    > So the trouble is, the fist weapon is fast, but can't backstab - does
    > this make it useless, sub-optimal, or ok within limitations. My rogue
    > sure does look great with dual fist weapons, but if she's not going to
    > do herself justice, should I just fall back on the standard options?
    >

    Since the point of the game is to have fun, and you spend a great
    amount of time in the game watching your character fight, if you enjoy
    how your character moves and looks with a certain weapon type then I
    say use that weapon type.

    So the situation is:

    1. If you're not wielding a dagger you can't backstab.

    2. If you're not wielding a slow weapon your instant attacks will be
    doing less damage.

    3. And most popular builds focus either on backstab build or they have
    a SS/Evis strategy.

    Well, that doesn't mean those are the only things you can do. You just
    need to find a build that will support the fighting style you want.
    Here's a build I came up with in just a couple of minutes designed
    around using fist weapons.

    Assassination Talents - 25 points

    Improved Eviscerate rank 2/3
    Malice rank 5/5
    Ruthlessness rank 3/3
    Relentless Strikes rank 1/1
    Lethality rank 4/5
    Vile Poisons rank 5/5
    Improved Instant Poison rank 5/5

    Combat Talents - 0 points

    Subtlety Talents - 26 points

    Master of Deception rank 5/5
    Camouflage rank 5/5
    Elusiveness rank 4/5
    Initiative rank 5/5
    Improved Sap rank 3/3
    Preparation rank 1/1
    Improved Cheap Shot rank 2/2
    Hemorrhage rank 1/1

    The idea here is to apply instant poison to both your weapons, approach
    your target stealthed, open with Cheap Shot, hit Hemo, and then a 3-4
    point Slice & Dice. Now your super fast weapons are hitting even
    faster, and each hit is getting the Hemo damage bonus and has an
    increased chance of applying instant poison which is itself doing
    increased damage. Plus you're hitting fast enough to get tons of crits
    and opportunities to proc any weapon enchantments you have on the
    fists. Throw an SS or two in there for a little extra damage and to
    build up some more combo points, and then Kidney Strike him, and keep
    swinging.

    Your burst damage is low but you're doing extreme DPS over time against
    a stunned target (until you get to opponents that are stun immune,
    anyway). It's a fairly group-friendly build with having the best
    stealth capabilities you can get for scouting ahead and sapping, plus
    the Hemo increases damage for all the warriors, paladins, hunters, etc
    in your group also, and its low burst damage and low energy
    requirements (meaning you'll easily be able to reserve for Feints as
    needed) make it so you're not making life difficult for your tank.

    Will this build work? I dunno. I haven't tested it. It might be a
    total failure and it's obviously not very PvP oriented. But it's just
    a quick example of how you don't have to give up what you think is fun
    so that you can be effective. Start with what you like, and then try
    to work out talents and strategies that will support it.
  7. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    On 24 Aug 2005 12:11:57 -0700, patrick.barnes@standardregister.com
    wrote:

    >Here's a build I came up with in just a couple of minutes designed
    >around using fist weapons.
    >
    >Assassination Talents - 25 points
    >
    >Improved Eviscerate rank 2/3
    >Malice rank 5/5
    >Ruthlessness rank 3/3
    >Relentless Strikes rank 1/1
    >Lethality rank 4/5
    >Vile Poisons rank 5/5
    >Improved Instant Poison rank 5/5
    >
    >Combat Talents - 0 points
    >
    >Subtlety Talents - 26 points
    >
    >Master of Deception rank 5/5
    >Camouflage rank 5/5
    >Elusiveness rank 4/5
    >Initiative rank 5/5
    >Improved Sap rank 3/3
    >Preparation rank 1/1
    >Improved Cheap Shot rank 2/2
    >Hemorrhage rank 1/1
    >
    >Will this build work? I dunno. I haven't tested it. It might be a
    >total failure and it's obviously not very PvP oriented.

    I don't think it will work but it's close. Make room for:
    Imp. Evis 3/3
    Lethality 5/5
    Cold Blood 1/1
    .... in the assassination tree by dropping vile poisons. I don't think
    you ever want to use the the DoT poisons as a rogue.

    I think I'd also put 2 into combat for improved SS (even with hemo).
    It wouldn't be a min/max build but it would be pretty effective and a
    definite change of pace for a rogue.

    Rgds, Frank
  8. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    Fist weapons will only be good when they add the "Monk" class :)
  9. Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

    In article <1124915625.760189.193130@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
    nvrsbr <abryant1@shaw.ca> wrote:

    > Fist weapons will only be good when they add the "Monk" class :)
    >
    Hehe... that's what I'm trying to achieve - I had a fantastic monk in
    NWN, and it would be sweet to get that sort of visceral, up-front
    combat here.

    Thanks for the rogue build - great work, and I'll definitely think
    about it. I've not had much rogue experience, so I hadn't done the
    in-depth thinking on how you can alter your strategy like that. Thanks
    a bunch!

    ___
    Neil
    aka HighVis
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