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Fist weapons still no good for rogue?

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Anonymous
August 20, 2005 1:33:48 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

I read a post a while ago about fist weapons and rogues - does it still
apply that they're no use? As far as I understand, the only reason you
want a fast weapon as a rogue is if it's a dagger, for backstabbing.
Other than that, am I right in thinking that a slow main hand weapon
would be better in that the extra attacks like SS would benefit from
the slow weapon's higher damage?

So the trouble is, the fist weapon is fast, but can't backstab - does
this make it useless, sub-optimal, or ok within limitations. My rogue
sure does look great with dual fist weapons, but if she's not going to
do herself justice, should I just fall back on the standard options?

And if they are useless at the moment, has there been any hint from
Blizzard that they're going to make them useful at all?

Thanks

___
Neil
aka HighVis

More about : fist weapons good rogue

Anonymous
August 20, 2005 1:33:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

I suppose some very fast fist weapons could lay a hurting on someone if
you coat them with stackable poisons. And hits are supposed to disrupt
casting, so the more hits the more disruption to a casters routine.

This wouldn't be a main "stance" for a rogue, but could lead into
combat with some tenderizing action. (Hopefully the 1 sec cooldown for
weapon swap (new for 1.7, and 1.5 sec for non-rogue) won't affect this
kind of strategy too much.)
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 12:29:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Neil Jones wrote:
> I read a post a while ago about fist weapons and rogues - does it still
> apply that they're no use? As far as I understand, the only reason you
> want a fast weapon as a rogue is if it's a dagger, for backstabbing.
> Other than that, am I right in thinking that a slow main hand weapon
> would be better in that the extra attacks like SS would benefit from
> the slow weapon's higher damage?

You don't want a fast weapon for backstabbing, no no no!

I see what you're trying to say though.. a weapon in the 1.80 sort of
are you'd never use _unless_ it was a dagger..

But fist weapons, yep, I can't see a lot of good in them. Eskhandar's
Right Claw ( http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=18203 )
dropped the last time my guild went to MC, and one of my fellow rogues
later opined that he'd have loved to have gotten it. ARGH, NO! My quick
calculation had me doing 70-80 more damage per SS with my trusty old
Thrash Blade than this epic claw.

I guess a fast high-damage fist weapon would be fine for offhand use.
Eskhandar's Left Claw, for instance, speed 1.50 and 48.0dps, if you can
put up with the bleed proc that will cause all the same irritations as
the Barman Shanker's proc.

Cheers!
David...
Related resources
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 3:20:06 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:33:48 +0100, Neil Jones
<neil@designumbrella.com> wrote:

>I read a post a while ago about fist weapons and rogues - does it still
>apply that they're no use? As far as I understand, the only reason you
>want a fast weapon as a rogue is if it's a dagger, for backstabbing.
>Other than that, am I right in thinking that a slow main hand weapon
>would be better in that the extra attacks like SS would benefit from
>the slow weapon's higher damage?
>
>So the trouble is, the fist weapon is fast, but can't backstab - does
>this make it useless, sub-optimal, or ok within limitations. My rogue
>sure does look great with dual fist weapons, but if she's not going to
>do herself justice, should I just fall back on the standard options?
>
>And if they are useless at the moment, has there been any hint from
>Blizzard that they're going to make them useful at all?

If we are talking main hand, then rogues want slow weapons. However a
few abilities require daggers, and daggers are not slow (slowest AFAIK
is speed 2.0), but the dagger rogues still want the _slowest_ daggers
they can get.

The problem with fist weapons is that they are fast (like daggers),
but cannot be used to enable attacks like backstab (unlike daggers).
Thus you can say that fist weapons carry all the bad of the daggers
and none of the good - this coupled with an extremely low number of
fist weapons in the game makes it the worst (or 2. after thrown
weapons) weapon type in the game.


If you want off hand weapons though, the only requirements is good
stats, high dps and fast speed (fast = more poison procs). Here fist
weapons could be usefull, but are again limited by their limited
numbers - however, if you find a good one then, by all means, go for
it. Eg. Eskhandar's Left Claw <http://www.thottbot.com/?i=39993&gt; is
not a bad off hand (but you can get better).


Ps. Surfing Thott I just noticed a few new fist weapons - apparently
these new ones stops the "fist = fast" trend, and frankly looks to be
_superb_ roge main hands:
Grand Marshal's Right Hand Blade <http://www.thottbot.com/?i=38114&gt;
Claw of the Black Drake <http://www.thottbot.com/?i=44756&gt;

Of course, the first requires you to PvP like a nutter to climb to the
rank where you can get it, and the second drops off of Firemaw -
apparently the fourth boss in Blackwing Lair.

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
Anonymous
August 21, 2005 4:21:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Simon Nejmann wrote:
> Ps. Surfing Thott I just noticed a few new fist weapons - apparently
> these new ones stops the "fist = fast" trend, and frankly looks to be
> _superb_ roge main hands:
> Grand Marshal's Right Hand Blade <http://www.thottbot.com/?i=38114&gt;

Well, the stats on that one are identical to the other Grand Marshal's
weapons.

http://www.thottbot.com/?i=38107
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=38116

So it would be great, but since you'd probably already have 300 skill
with one handed sword or mace, you'd be more likely to pick one of
those. :-)

> Claw of the Black Drake <http://www.thottbot.com/?i=44756&gt;

Now that's a nice piece of work. And as someone commented on there,
apparently it looks great, too!

Cheers!
David...
Anonymous
August 23, 2005 12:20:50 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

In article <43065e02$0$8654$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, David Carson
<david@eldergothSPAMTRAP.com> wrote:

> Neil Jones wrote:
> > As far as I understand, the only reason you
> > want a fast weapon as a rogue is if it's a dagger, for backstabbing.

> You don't want a fast weapon for backstabbing, no no no!
>
> I see what you're trying to say though.. a weapon in the 1.80 sort of
> are you'd never use _unless_ it was a dagger..

That's exactly what I did say. Read the sentence again ;)  The
backstabbing is the key, not the speed.

So, according to Thotbott, the only decent fist weapon is a L60 epic.
Great.

/me goes sulkily back to sword/dagger, dagger/dagger combos.

___
Neil
aka HighVis
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 4:11:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Neil Jones wrote:
>
> So the trouble is, the fist weapon is fast, but can't backstab - does
> this make it useless, sub-optimal, or ok within limitations. My rogue
> sure does look great with dual fist weapons, but if she's not going to
> do herself justice, should I just fall back on the standard options?
>

Since the point of the game is to have fun, and you spend a great
amount of time in the game watching your character fight, if you enjoy
how your character moves and looks with a certain weapon type then I
say use that weapon type.

So the situation is:

1. If you're not wielding a dagger you can't backstab.

2. If you're not wielding a slow weapon your instant attacks will be
doing less damage.

3. And most popular builds focus either on backstab build or they have
a SS/Evis strategy.

Well, that doesn't mean those are the only things you can do. You just
need to find a build that will support the fighting style you want.
Here's a build I came up with in just a couple of minutes designed
around using fist weapons.

Assassination Talents - 25 points

Improved Eviscerate rank 2/3
Malice rank 5/5
Ruthlessness rank 3/3
Relentless Strikes rank 1/1
Lethality rank 4/5
Vile Poisons rank 5/5
Improved Instant Poison rank 5/5

Combat Talents - 0 points

Subtlety Talents - 26 points

Master of Deception rank 5/5
Camouflage rank 5/5
Elusiveness rank 4/5
Initiative rank 5/5
Improved Sap rank 3/3
Preparation rank 1/1
Improved Cheap Shot rank 2/2
Hemorrhage rank 1/1

The idea here is to apply instant poison to both your weapons, approach
your target stealthed, open with Cheap Shot, hit Hemo, and then a 3-4
point Slice & Dice. Now your super fast weapons are hitting even
faster, and each hit is getting the Hemo damage bonus and has an
increased chance of applying instant poison which is itself doing
increased damage. Plus you're hitting fast enough to get tons of crits
and opportunities to proc any weapon enchantments you have on the
fists. Throw an SS or two in there for a little extra damage and to
build up some more combo points, and then Kidney Strike him, and keep
swinging.

Your burst damage is low but you're doing extreme DPS over time against
a stunned target (until you get to opponents that are stun immune,
anyway). It's a fairly group-friendly build with having the best
stealth capabilities you can get for scouting ahead and sapping, plus
the Hemo increases damage for all the warriors, paladins, hunters, etc
in your group also, and its low burst damage and low energy
requirements (meaning you'll easily be able to reserve for Feints as
needed) make it so you're not making life difficult for your tank.

Will this build work? I dunno. I haven't tested it. It might be a
total failure and it's obviously not very PvP oriented. But it's just
a quick example of how you don't have to give up what you think is fun
so that you can be effective. Start with what you like, and then try
to work out talents and strategies that will support it.
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 5:04:01 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

On 24 Aug 2005 12:11:57 -0700, patrick.barnes@standardregister.com
wrote:

>Here's a build I came up with in just a couple of minutes designed
>around using fist weapons.
>
>Assassination Talents - 25 points
>
>Improved Eviscerate rank 2/3
>Malice rank 5/5
>Ruthlessness rank 3/3
>Relentless Strikes rank 1/1
>Lethality rank 4/5
>Vile Poisons rank 5/5
>Improved Instant Poison rank 5/5
>
>Combat Talents - 0 points
>
>Subtlety Talents - 26 points
>
>Master of Deception rank 5/5
>Camouflage rank 5/5
>Elusiveness rank 4/5
>Initiative rank 5/5
>Improved Sap rank 3/3
>Preparation rank 1/1
>Improved Cheap Shot rank 2/2
>Hemorrhage rank 1/1
>
>Will this build work? I dunno. I haven't tested it. It might be a
>total failure and it's obviously not very PvP oriented.

I don't think it will work but it's close. Make room for:
Imp. Evis 3/3
Lethality 5/5
Cold Blood 1/1
.... in the assassination tree by dropping vile poisons. I don't think
you ever want to use the the DoT poisons as a rogue.

I think I'd also put 2 into combat for improved SS (even with hemo).
It wouldn't be a min/max build but it would be pretty effective and a
definite change of pace for a rogue.

Rgds, Frank
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 5:33:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

Fist weapons will only be good when they add the "Monk" class :) 
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 2:39:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.warcraft (More info?)

In article <1124915625.760189.193130@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
nvrsbr <abryant1@shaw.ca> wrote:

> Fist weapons will only be good when they add the "Monk" class :) 
>
Hehe... that's what I'm trying to achieve - I had a fantastic monk in
NWN, and it would be sweet to get that sort of visceral, up-front
combat here.

Thanks for the rogue build - great work, and I'll definitely think
about it. I've not had much rogue experience, so I hadn't done the
in-depth thinking on how you can alter your strategy like that. Thanks
a bunch!

___
Neil
aka HighVis
!