250FPS = Screen Tearing?

[GeorgeGeee]

Long story short:
When my GPU reaches 77C, I start to get wobbling/vibrating effects on my second screen (the one connected to the VGA port on my 560 TI).

For the record, the temperature itself is fine, it's just the side-effect it's causing on the VGA-connected screen. As 'djscribbles' describes a few posts down in this thread, it's to do with the temperature causing a delay on the VGA chipset or something

How can I go about cooling it down and who has experienced this before?

>>>>>>>> Ignore the topic title '250FPS - Screen Tearing?' - that was before I had tried other games, and also learnt that what I am experiencing wasn't 'screen tearing'. <<<<<<<<

 

[simon12]

80C is fine for a GPU start worrying if it gets past 90C

 

[GeorgeGeee]

80C is fine for a GPU start worrying if it gets past 90C

It's more-so the screen tearing I was questioning my concerns about.

 

[GeorgeGeee]

80C is fine for a GPU start worrying if it gets past 90C

It's not like typical v-sync screen tears, its like if the VGA cable wasn't connected properly or something, and the text started 'vibrating' horizontally.

 

[smnoamls]

Screen tearing can appear to be both horizontal AND vertical, depending on the fps actually.
The tear is usually horizontal when fps is within the 60 fps range (up to 100 or so) but after reaching 3-4x the screen refresh, the tears themselves can "overlap" or superimpose on themselves, giving an effect of different shapes of tears.
Frankly, I can't really tell what shapes those will be, but they are not limited to the usual small tears in a horizontal shape.
If you get to 250fps (or even 100) , vsync is advisable.

 

[DarkOutlaw]

Yer not even telling us what kind of GPU you have...

 

[GeorgeGeee]

Yer not even telling us what kind of GPU you have...

Sorry!
It's an Palit GeForce GTX 560 TI 1GB.

Other system specs:

Intel i5 3450 3.1GHz (3.5GHz Turbo)
16GB DDR3 1333MHz
750W PSU
Asus Motherboard
1TB 7200rpm HDD

 

[bystander]

It's not like typical v-sync screen tears, its like if the VGA cable wasn't connected properly or something, and the text started 'vibrating' horizontally.

Screen tearing can happen on any system without v-sync on, but for every multiple your refresh can divide into your FPS, you will automatically gain an extra tear. At 250 FPS, you will be guaranteed to get 5 tears on the screen. The tears will also move up and down, which is likely what is causing this sort of vibrating issue.

The temp of the card is not unreasonable, so should be good.

 

[willard]

Am I mistaken in thinking that no matter your FPS, you should only get one tear?

Tearing results from the video card sending the buffer to the monitor in the midst of it being overwritten. It doesn't matter how many times it's been overwritten, because it's not going to be overwriting it multiple times simultaneously.

If the buffer is used in the midst of a refresh, tear. Otherwise no tear. I can see no situation in which you could get multiple tears.

 

[GeorgeGeee]

Am I mistaken in thinking that no matter your FPS, you should only get one tear?

Tearing results from the video card sending the buffer to the monitor in the midst of it being overwritten. It doesn't matter how many times it's been overwritten, because it's not going to be overwriting it multiple times simultaneously.

If the buffer is used in the midst of a refresh, tear. Otherwise no tear. I can see no situation in which you could get multiple tears.

I probably shouldn't have used the term 'tear'.

On my second screen, once I hit 76C, the non-gaming screen starts to go weird, as in it starts to go fuzzy vibrating side-to-side a little. But this is only when it hits 76C.

 

[willard]

I was responding to the people who were saying you'd get a number of tears equal to the framerate divided by the refresh rate, not your use of the word tear. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[djscribbles]

What sort of connection are you using for your non-gaming screen?

My guess is you are using the VGA connector that your card has (it's a real live VGA, not an adapter), it's likely that the chip that converts the video output to a VGA signal is somewhere in the path of outgoing heat, and can't handle the heat it's receiving, and getting a little loose in it's timings, and since the VGA signal is all analog, you'll start seeing wobble.

You can probably confirm this by using a DVI->VGA adapter instead for a while, the problem should go away. If my assumptions are correct, the issue is isolated to just that VGA port, and you shouldn't really worry about it being a full blown GPU problem.

edit: Double checked on wikipedia. The VGA connector does carry the signals I thought it did, and it essentially has raster level control over the monitor, so it can cause a wobble-ing effect if it's timing is off (wobble being similar to what you would see when de-gaussing an old CRT, where the image actually distorts).

Just for the sake of discussion, I would expect that GPUs no longer contain internal circuitry for driving the analog signals required for VGA connectors, so it's likely that in order to provide that feature, there is a separate (non-nvidia) chip on the card that converts one of the DVI signals into VGA. Since it's not part of the reference design to have VGA connectors anymore. My guess is it wasn't really tested much, and the VGA chip likely get's quite hot being in the path of the GPU exhaust and is operating outside of it's thermal specs; it may fail some day, but it's more likely that it just doesn't keep accurate timing while it's hot due to the minor changes in the circuits electrical properties (but not to the point of causing the chip to burn itself out like a high-performance component would).

 

[InvalidError]

If the buffer is used in the midst of a refresh, tear. Otherwise no tear. I can see no situation in which you could get multiple tears.

You get a 'tear' whenever the GPU frame buffer flips before the frame finishes getting shifted out to the display. At 250fps on a 60Hz screen, you get an average of 4.16 frames per refresh which means you can have up to four tears per displayed image about 1/4th of the screen apart and where those tears will land will vary with timing between refresh and page flips.

 

[GeorgeGeee]

What sort of connection are you using for your non-gaming screen?

My guess is you are using the VGA connector that your card has (it's a real live VGA, not an adapter), it's likely that the chip that converts the video output to a VGA signal is somewhere in the path of outgoing heat, and can't handle the heat it's receiving, and getting a little loose in it's timings, and since the VGA signal is all analog, you'll start seeing wobble.

You can probably confirm this by using a DVI->VGA adapter instead for a while, the problem should go away. If my assumptions are correct, the issue is isolated to just that VGA port, and you shouldn't really worry about it being a full blown GPU problem.

edit: Double checked on wikipedia. The VGA connector does carry the signals I thought it did, and it essentially has raster level control over the monitor, so it can cause a wobble-ing effect if it's timing is off (wobble being similar to what you would see when de-gaussing an old CRT, where the image actually distorts).

Just for the sake of discussion, I would expect that GPUs no longer contain internal circuitry for driving the analog signals required for VGA connectors, so it's likely that in order to provide that feature, there is a separate (non-nvidia) chip on the card that converts one of the DVI signals into VGA. Since it's not part of the reference design to have VGA connectors anymore. My guess is it wasn't really tested much, and the VGA chip likely get's quite hot being in the path of the GPU exhaust and is operating outside of it's thermal specs; it may fail some day, but it's more likely that it just doesn't keep accurate timing while it's hot due to the minor changes in the circuits electrical properties (but not to the point of causing the chip to burn itself out like a high-performance component would).

You are correct to assume that I am using a VGA port.

On the back of my 560 TI, there are 4 ports:

VGA
DVI-I
DVI-D
HDMI

I'm using DVI-I for my gaming screen (using a VGA>DVI-I adapter), and using an identical screen connected to the VGA port as my second screen (the one experiencing the wobble).

The problem is, I'm led to believe you cannot convert VGA>DVI-D due to VGA being analog, and DVI-D being digital (as can be seen here: http://www.entechtaiwan.com/images/dvicon.gif)

So what would you advise doing?

 

[djscribbles]

I'd try to hook the secondary monitor up to your integrated graphics port if the wobble bothers you. You could buy a DVI-vga, but thats kinda expensive for fixing a minor issue.

 

[GeorgeGeee]

I'd try to hook the secondary monitor up to your integrated graphics port if the wobble bothers you. You could buy a DVI-vga, but thats kinda expensive for fixing a minor issue.

How can I do that? When I plug my second monitor into it, it doesn't get any signal?

Also, is there any downside (performance, life-time etc.) to using both the on-board graphics & dedicated graphics simultaneously?

 

[djscribbles]

I'm not 100% sure you can use the IGP as well, I've never actually tried it, but you may need to enable it in BIOS to be on along side a PCIE card. If it works, it shouldn't hurt performance since it's offloading some of the easy work to the IGP.

Again though, there is probably going to be nothing wrong with simply putting up with the issue if you want, worst case scenario you kill the VGA output port. You could also try adding a small slot fan (or simply improving your case airflow), to avoid the issue altogether.

 

[GeorgeGeee]

I'm not 100% sure you can use the IGP as well, I've never actually tried it, but you may need to enable it in BIOS to be on along side a PCIE card. If it works, it shouldn't hurt performance since it's offloading some of the easy work to the IGP.

Again though, there is probably going to be nothing wrong with simply putting up with the issue if you want, worst case scenario you kill the VGA output port. You could also try adding a small slot fan (or simply improving your case airflow), to avoid the issue altogether.

Here is what my air-flow looks like:

This is with the side fan:
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/1530/dsc0008jy.jpg

This is without the side fan:
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/6299/dsc0010xj.jpg

This is the area where the GPU is:
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/8753/dsc0004vi.jpg

Other than adding an out-take fan below the GPU, I don't see anywhere that I could add fan(s) or cooling.

 

[GeorgeGeee]

I'm not 100% sure you can use the IGP as well, I've never actually tried it, but you may need to enable it in BIOS to be on along side a PCIE card. If it works, it shouldn't hurt performance since it's offloading some of the easy work to the IGP.

Again though, there is probably going to be nothing wrong with simply putting up with the issue if you want, worst case scenario you kill the VGA output port. You could also try adding a small slot fan (or simply improving your case airflow), to avoid the issue altogether.

Forget my previous question about using on-board graphics, my BIOS doesn't allow both to be used at the same time.

Would a VGA>HDMI adapter do the job? The 560 TI has a HDMI port.
Would I experience the same issues that I'm experiencing with the VGA port?

 

[djscribbles]

I would expect it to fix the issue, but I don't know anything for sure. That said, those adapters cost about 50$, at that point you have to ask yourself A) is it worth fixing B) would the money be better spent on a new monitor with better connectors (150$ will buy a nice monitor, not sure what you have now though)

 

[GeorgeGeee]

I would expect it to fix the issue, but I don't know anything for sure. That said, those adapters cost about 50$, at that point you have to ask yourself A) is it worth fixing B) would the money be better spent on a new monitor with better connectors (150$ will buy a nice monitor, not sure what you have now though)

I'm not sure if I want to fork out for a new screen, as I don't know for sure that that's the issue. You seem to know what you're doing but I wouldn't want to buy a new screen based around what you have said, which is understandable. I'd much rather just ensure that the GPU doesn't reach the temperature of 76C. If I can drop it by even 4C then it's problem solved.

 

[stopthe_bomb]

Buying a new screen and using hdmi would almost certainly fix your issue. I am not a certified engineer, so don't sue me if it doesn't but I'm nearly positive it would

 

[richard694000]

I don't know what adapter there talking about is $50 but i would buy one of these that are $5
dvi to vga.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&N=-1&isNodeId=1&Description=dvi+d+vga+adapter&x=23&y=14

 

[GeorgeGeee]

I don't know what adapter there talking about is $50 but i would buy one of these that are $4 dvi to vga.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&N=-1&isNodeId=1&Description=DVI-vga&x=18&y=10

My GPU has 1 DVI-I and 1 DVI-D port.

You can convert VGA>DVI-I because they're both analog.
You can't convert VGA>DVI-D because DVI-D is digital.

There are converters out there but they are very expensive.

 

[djscribbles]

Understandable. I personally wouldn't even fork out the 50 for the adapter, but if you are throwing in 50 for something that may be useless, adding 100 and getting something that you can use even if it doesn't fix the problem isn't a huge stretch.

Looking at your pictures, adding an exhaust fan in the back would probably be the best first step (whatever size that is). As it is, I don't really see any exhaust fans in your case, so dropping the ambient a litttle via exhausting hot air may be enough to steady the tremors (it looks like there is a chip on the lower right of the card here: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Palit/GeForce_GTX_560_Ti_Sonic/images/card2.jpg that is likely the VGA adapter controller, whom is the one getting hot, rather than the GPU itself).

If your case is missing front fans, adding one of those could help as well, but get exhaust first, as it's going to vent hot air from the problem area.