Air cooling advice

Toggle sidebar Toggle sidebar
D

dianish

Honorable
May 27, 2012
30
0
10,530
Hello all :)

Lately i have been thinking about improving my air cooling solution - Which is already pretty good. I think it is. Im a bit OCD when it comes to my temps, so i want to get them as low as possible. But now im at that point where i dont know what to do next. The most important components i want to lower temps for is GPU and CPU basicly. But wouldnt mind all temps were lowered.

Im not happy with water cooling cause i dont want to "risk it", you know? :) So im sticking with aircooling. I do know that water cooling has improved over the years, but i still dont trust it. Not yet.


My build is:

NZXT Phantom Full Tower(White)
Asus P8z68-Vpro
Corsair TX750v2 PSU
Core i5 2500k 4.5Ghz OC - Noctua NH-D14.
16 GB Kingston HyperX Genesis 2400 Mhz
Radeon HD6950 1050/1500 OC - Accelero Xtreme II+ cooler block, removed stock fans and added 2x120mm CoolerMaster SickleFlow R4 fans.

My temps are as following - Using Celsius.

Ambient 26c

IDLE

Cpu - 29-35c
MB - 27c
GPU - 33-34c
GPU Vrm - 34-36c

LOAD

Cpu - 56-59c(Prime95 and intelburn test) 50-55c when gaming.
MB - 31c
GPU - 50-61c (Kombuster, BF3, Crysis 2 with texture pack, and metro 2033)
GPU Vrm - 66c

As you may have noticed i have managed to get some, well, almost perfect temps on air cooling. I want to sqeeze it abit more and lower the temps even more. Even if its just a few degrees.

In the case i am using the stock fans that came within. Added another 192 mm fan on top and removed the side fans.

Front - 120 mm intake (Upgrading to 140 mm
Back - 120 mm exhaust
Top - 2x192 mm exhaust

CPU and GPU fans are connected to the fans controlpanel at the top.

I have also switched the meshed sidepanel out with a window sidepanel for better airflow, and got airfilters on intake and the meshed areas of the case. Also got nice cable management.

Temps difference between low and high fan speed is just 2-8c when in idle or load. GPU temps doesnt change between low and high speed with these fans.

Also, i am using HWmonitor, Intel Coretemp, CPU-z and GPU-z.

Before i started lowering my temps, they were:

CPU - 40-45 in idle and up to 75 on load.(had a Arctic cooling Freezer13)
GPU - 42-45 in idle and up to 85 on load, with no OC.(Stock xfx cooling)
GPU vrm - 5-10 c higher than GPU.

Which isnt the best. The CPU didnt like Prime95 or IntelBurnTest.

I think i have provided all the details for my case. Do i need to add more, please tell :)

Oh, forgot to add how o placed my PC. I've build a homemade. On top of it stands my screen(40" tv) and behind the screen i have the pc standing. Screen/tv generates lots of heat, but after several tests i found out that this doesnt interfere with my computer temps. Air space between TV and computer is about 28 cm and about 2 cm from window sidepanel to a cold concrete wall.

Would add pictures of temp readings if i wasnt a total nood about it..

As i write this my GPU is 32.5-34c and cpu is 31-36c

Thanks in advance
 
D

dianish

Honorable
May 27, 2012
30
0
10,530
Edit original post.

 
manofchalk

manofchalk

Glorious
May 11, 2012
12,914
3
48,960
Those temps are already very good, don't see why you would want/need them lower.

I assume if you have gone to the lengths of an aftermarket cooler for the GPU, you would have a substantial heatsink for the CPU.
I guess the only way to reduce the temps would be to just experiment with fan placements. You currently have a strong negative system through the case, maybe try positive?
Play with your GPU fan settings (f they are connected to the card).
Try undervolting your CPU/GPU. Less energy going through it means less heat. Basically same method as overclocking, drop the voltage until its unstable, back up a bit. Lower the frequency (down-clock) or sit at the lowest stable voltage.
Or turn your air conditioner down, at this point it may just not budge because the ambient temperature wont let it.

Other than that, cant see many ways to improve cooling without getting into custom watercooling. A chilled reservoir apparently does wonders.

Maybe refrigerate a brick and put it in the bottom of the case. That may do something :lol:

EDIT:
My 3570k is between 13 and 23C at idle (across the cores). I havent taken any extreme measures to cool them. Local weather reports in my area say its 9.3C, but I'm indoors so you could say ambient is ~17. This helps the theory that ambient temps play a large role.
 
D

dianish

Honorable
May 27, 2012
30
0
10,530
Thank you replying.


My temps doesnt need to be lowered. I am aware up this. But i would like to do it. I want to know how low i can go :)

I did go for aftermarket cooling. I bought the Arctic Cooling Accelero Xtreme II Plus but GPU temps wasnt lowered enough. It didnt provide the temps as other people got on theirs. I tryed reseat several times and tryed some TIM's. And found out the best temps was with the MX-4 TIM.

I have also experimented with fan placement - Got the best setup these fans can provide. Wish that other brand will make som 192 mm fans as well. The NZXT ones are not the best - I´d rather change them for something better.

The heatsink for cpu is the Noctua NH-D14. Its huge and doing its job. Fans are not connected to the motherboard. I use the fan controller for this.

My negative pressure is based on experiments over a week with gaming and burn´in tests Negative pressure had 2-4 lower temps. The tests was made at a steady 26 c. Also tryed using the fancontroller to adjust speeds, and bought another Phantom case which i silicone sealed. In the sealed case the temps didnt improve. Was waste of money, but earned it back in since my mate wanted a sealed case.

On the GPU i use 2x Cooler Master R4 SicklefLow fans. 900 to 2000 rpms, 69.7 cfm and 2.9 mm air pressure does a really godo job on the Accelero Xtreme II+ heatsink. Right now its 31c with fan speed set to medium. Before i got the R4 fans, i used MSI afterburner to make a fan profile depending on my needs. I found this good when fans were plugged into the gcard - Stock cooling and loud as hell.

I dont have any A/C but have planned to get one - But thats another project im starting up.. Gonna make a sealed case/box, that imitates the airflow in a pc case. The case will contain a humidityvaporaiser and a A/C with air ducts for intake/exhaust. This setup will be finished when the Radeon 8000 series comes. Hopefully this can get the job done, but is still working on the plans (This setup is actually not for me. But im gonna build it and test it. Its also for a mate)

Ha ha to the brick ;)

As for the noise levels of my computer.. I cant hear it from 8 feet away when fans are on low. When all fans are on low the temps doesnt exceed 40c. Which is what im most happy about. Its soo quite. When fans are on high, during gaming, i can hear it, but it not even close to loud. Stock cooling on Xfx HD6950 2gb is crap and it is really loud comparing to this setup i have.

I have always been told that air cooling is bad.. I also want to prove them wrong.
 
manofchalk

manofchalk

Glorious
May 11, 2012
12,914
3
48,960
Air-cooling isnt bad, but when you are building a pressurized box with its own A/C, dehumidifier and air ducts through it. You got to admit that even custom water-cooling may be a better (and cheaper) option.

Also be wary of sub-ambient cooling. If you connect the machine to your fridge (or do something that reduces internal case temperature below ambient), you can run into the issue of condensation. The dehumidifier may help, but again, be careful.

Also that brick idea is somewhat useful. The more mass you have inside the case, the heat is spread thinner through that mass. So chilling a brick and putting it in the case may help, the in-case temperature is reduced as the same amount of heat now has to warm a greater mass. Helps that it also has to overcome the bricks lack of heat to begin with.
Same concept as heat-sinks, you take heat concentrated in a small area, and spread it over a larger area to reduce temperatures. In this case, its mass instead of area.

Though inversely, that also means the system as a whole is harder to cool once it gets hot. So maybe remove the brick when the system isn't in use and put it back in the fridge (hot swappable brick bay?), so that way it wont warm to room temp overnight and make it harder for the case to cool.

Or you can go balls out crazy and oil-cool the machine. Drop the system(except HDD's and optical) into a fish-tank filled with mineral oil. Have a pump to cycle the oil through a heatsink outside the case, so you can cool the oil directly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwBrCP9B93E
Pretty damn impressive to show off a machine running in oil.
Though your upgradibility going this way is essentially none.
 
D

dianish

Honorable
May 27, 2012
30
0
10,530
Well, the water cooling might be cheaper, but i like playing around and making projects. Im a handyman and i customize all i can do. Even made my own case once instead of making mods. Otherwise i just help others do what they cant or help them make what they want :) I am aware of the condensation, which im still trying to figure out. Maybe two humidityvaporizer. Its still just a concept of mine. If this project will work or not depends on my mate im building it for.

It not very often i need help my self. So the A/C case is actually a very nice mod when going to some contests ect. OR to LAN-parties. I love making people moan about what i've created.

Off topic..

Rewind..

Back to topic.

According to 4 different thermometers shows that the air going through my case under load is 2c lower than my ambient temps. I even went out and bought a new just to make sure. Comparing the termometers with each other its just +/- 1c . I dont think they are wrong and i trust them. My CPU have been running IntelBurn and Prime95 again. 1½ hour each and IntelBurn makes my CPU 3c higher than Prime95 did(Usually does each test i do). Both tests included termometer inside the case as well as outside. Ambient right now is 25.4c and this makes me wonder.... The case is 2c cooler than my ambient room temps. I've heard this couldnt be true. but every termometer show it. Btw, this is when all my fans are at 100% speed.

I must say i still laugh a bit about the brick idea. I cant make it fit into my case ;) Its so pretty, and a brick is like a big zit thats just sitting there, waiting to get popped.

I have already made an oil-cooled pc. It looked got with a soundreaktive modul and some CCFL's. The thing is about the oil cooling.. It cost about 2 grand where i live to fill the fish tank with oil. And thats a small tank. I liked the temps, but when putting the hardware into the oil you will never be able to use it in a normal case again. If you go oil, you stay oil. So im back to where i started. Air-cooling. And therefor asking for advice.

Would be great if other people got some ideas to make my build cooler.

I set the fan speeds to low while wrtting this, and the case temps raised to 1.5c higher than my ambient.
 
manofchalk

manofchalk

Glorious
May 11, 2012
12,914
3
48,960
If there is a lot of airflow through the case (which I imagine there would be at 100%), the thermometers could be experiencing windchill. The layer of air around the thermometer is being constantly replaced with new, fresh air. So it never gets a chance to develop a layer of insulating warm air around it. Normal air that isnt moving may read to be a bit warmer since the air is effectively still.
Though I'm pretty sure thermometers are designed to minimize this effect to get the true temperature. Anyway, cant be a bad thing. 2C below ambient isn't enough to form condensation (probably).

Paint it black? Get something that's not a brick maybe, just dense. I imagine for someone of your construction skills you could figure something out.

.....
I am starting to get the feeling you are much more experienced than me at this....

Starting to run out of idea's. Maybe a new case? The Phantom is pretty good I'l admit, but only holds about four fans through the entire thing. The HAF-X on the other hand can support 5 quite easily, and with the included accessories, 8 fans. Can even throw a fan at the bottom of the case to draw from below, so 9. I imagine with a bit of case modding you could fit even more. Supports a triple rad if you change your mind about water cooling.
Coolermaster HAF-X. $187
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119225
As well as it just being a very good case. I have had no issues with mine.
 
D

dianish

Honorable
May 27, 2012
30
0
10,530
First i have to say: Thank you for your very nice replys and your patience with my english. Its not my first language.

I have not been able to measure the airflow through the case. Such device have never been needed in my experience.. I just change fans ect to make the system cooler. So, its not important to me to know how much air going through. As long as temps are going down i dont mind not knowing it.

I have tryed to place the termometers different places in the case. I cant find any air loops where the air is stuck and getting hot. The Phantom can hold 3 fans in front, 2 on top and 1 in the back. Can also hold another 192 mm on the side. Also possible to add 2 more 120mm fans on the buttom as intakes - So in overall it can have 9 fans.

I am a novice in airflow ect. I work in metal/wood workshops and i have to much sparetime. The brick idea might be possible. Though i dont want to cool a brick each time i have to play a game, hehe. But taking out the extra bays will make space for a half brick standing so the intake air will pass it and cool the air maybe a little. I dont think it will be enough without making some sort of tunnel from intake fan to the brick to avoid turbulens and send the cooler air the right direction. I have gotten many ideas during this topic and its all thanks to you.

About the HAF-X, good review, and many gamers uses that case. It is a beast and ugly as a beast. The looks is also important to me since i like to "show off" my build. Also prefer to have something others dont. Thats my main reason to mod. I've heard the Corsair 600T with the new fanmod should be good and i am considering getting it and take it for a test. Maybe mod it to look like Phantom Fulltower - The special Edition, black and orange. That looks good. And supports your idea to paint it black. Not bad at all.

Now i know that i cant do much more about my air cooling. Not with regular fans and without making it sound like a F-14 Tomcat jet taking off.

 
geofelt

geofelt

Titan
Oct 9, 2006
54,301
4,146
174,240
Just why do you feel you need to lower your temperatures even more?
If it is for academic interest as a challenge, I can understand that.

But, a 2500K will not throttle untill it reaches near 100c.
A graphics card will operate satisfactorily near 100c also.

If either gets too hot, it will simply downclock to protect itself.

More airflow might be possible, but it will be at the expense of more noise.

If you reduce your OC, you will get lower temperatures.

If you replaced your cpu with a 22nm ivy bridge or your graphics card with a 28nm based card, you will run cooler.

Separately, if you can air condition your room, with the heat exhausting outside the building, you will lower your ambient temperatures.
Your pc temperatures will lower by exactly that amount.
 
D

dianish

Honorable
May 27, 2012
30
0
10,530
I want to lower the temps cause i want to see how low i can go on air cooling. I know my ambient is a really huge factor, which i cannot drop so i know im close to the limit when not cooling the the air before it goes through the case. Its a bad apartment really. Only windows on 1 side, and its not possible to get the ambient lower here. Will move in future ofc.

Yep, the 2500k is a nice chip. So nice that i actually managed to get it stable at 4.2 Ghz with 1.27v. I just played abit more around in bios and voila. Its not cooler in idle, but on full load its about 4c lower, which is great. Though my cpu never loads 100%, only during stress tests

I want to change for the new generation of chips. But the intel 3rd generation are known for getting hotter than 2nd generation. Its a hell lot faster indeed, but the 2500k still has more bang for my buck.

The new radeon 8000 series should be on market around christmas or shortly after - I have planned to buy one of those.

I was also asking for aircooling advice, not upgrades that will make the build run cooler. I thank you anyway cause it was still an idea i've considered my self.

Thanks
 
geofelt

geofelt

Titan
Oct 9, 2006
54,301
4,146
174,240
If your interest is academic, try reversing the airflow in your case.
Replacing fans with 38mm high rpm fans will create a ton of airflow, but will also generate lots of noise. A tradeoff.

As to a 3rd gen 3570K, yes, they run cooler at stock. I would use one in a new build, but there is no real value in changing from a 2500K to a 3570K. What you gain by instructions per clock is just about offset by how much you can OC because of temperature issues at high voltage.
 
D

dianish

Honorable
May 27, 2012
30
0
10,530
Sorry for my late answer here.

I have been away and not been able to write.

My interest is not academic, Its just abit OCD obsession i have. Since last night i have been tweaking the BIOS and played around with the CPU voltage. Tryed to to the offset instead of fixed voltage. At full load it at 1.35v and max temp during Prime95 was 61c in package and 53c to 58c across cores. Ran it for 5 hours. The weird part is when i start Prime95 the temps go straight up right away, stay like that for an hour or so, then the temps drops about 4c and doesnt get higher over time. So Prime is actually

This is great. But to make it even better the CPU temps in idle are now 25c to 33c across cores.

Atm im not gonna upgrade for 3rd gen CPU, but i will when radeon 8000 series comes out. Gonna put it all in a new rig. This already feels outdated.

Right new as i write this the temps are and the ambient is the same as usual.

Core#0 - 29c
Core#1 - 30c
Core#2 - 28c
Core#3 - 33c

Package - 33c as well


Also tryed to open the door in front of the case while doing a Prime test, and it really is negativ pressure for sure. Can fee the "suck" effect when holding my hand about 4-5 inches away from the front. When the "door" is open the load temps decreases by 2-3c so i might leave that one open when gaming.

I have never seen these temps on a simple aircooled rig. What do you guys have to sayd about it? Im pretty impressed.. Didnt think they could get lower.
 
D

dianish

Honorable
May 27, 2012
30
0
10,530
I just thought of something. Wonder why i havent thought about it before.

Will it help if i change the fans on the Noctua Nh-D14 HSF for something abit more powerfull ?

Which fans could you recommend instead ? Does all the fans fit? I actually have no experience with this.

Doesnt matter if its a matter of 1-3c decrease in temps. If it can be lower, i will make it so.

I will try put on some Cooler Master R4 fans on it. Maybe add a 3rd fan just for kicks and see how it goes.

Suggestions?

Cheers
 
P

proton007

Honorable
Aug 20, 2012
289
0
10,810
While the Noctua fans are pretty good, if you want to try fans, look at their Static Pressure Rating. The higher this rating, the better the fan is at pushing air through the cooling fins.
Choose the chasis fans to have high air flow.
 
D

dianish

Honorable
May 27, 2012
30
0
10,530
Yes.

Static pressure is important for the HSF's. Otherwise it cannot blow the air through cause of the extra resistance.

CFM is important for the airflow

Thats why i thought about replacing the noctua fans with the R4's. They have more than twice as much statis pressure. A tiny bit noisere from where i am sitting which doesnt bother me. Not at all.

With the R4's on i dont even have to turn up the fanspeed. Even on low they cool the cpu about 1-2c lower than with the noctua fans on.

I will let the R4's stay put for now.


Load temps across cores with fan set to high:

47c to 55c - Package 56c.

Load temps across cores with fans set to low:

49c to 56 - Package 58c.

Im finally starting to feel god about the temps.. But im greedy and want them lower.

The R4 fans just made it possible for me to leave the fanspeed on low while gaming without getting hot.

More suggestions?

EDIT: Good. Not GOD.
 
P

proton007

Honorable
Aug 20, 2012
289
0
10,810
Whats your surrounding (room) temps like? Thats the ultimate deciding factor.
Also, every cooler will have a delta T wrt processor TDP. You cannot go beyond that.
 
D

dianish

Honorable
May 27, 2012
30
0
10,530
My ambient havent changed.

26c

The Delta is a beast, but that one is really way to loud. Dont want it to sound like a jet taking off. Trying to hold down the temps while the noise levels stays about the same.
 
P

proton007

Honorable
Aug 20, 2012
289
0
10,810
I'm not referring to a delta cooler.
I'm referring to the temperature difference any cooler will have compared to the ambient at a given TDP.

For Noctua NH-D14 that I have, Delta T:
@ 75W is 14 deg C
@ 120W is 21 deg C
@ 180W is 29 deg C.

A core i7-3770k at 95% load is 146W, so the delta T would be somewhere around 23-25 degrees. You can check for your CPU.
So, for an ambient of 26 degrees, your idle temps should by somewhere around 40, for full load, somewhere around 50-55.

The fans can only do so much once you reach the thermal limit of the cooler itself. Its a heat exchanger, and the heat first needs to be transferred from the CPU to the cooler fins through the heat pipes. So,
Rate at which fans remove heat from fins (cannot be greater than) Rate at which heat pipes transfer heat from CPU to fins.

If you break that barrier, you're essentially converting it into a refrigerator.
 
D

dianish

Honorable
May 27, 2012
30
0
10,530
Sounds to me you havent read the whole thread.. Have you read the above posts?

Detailed information about my spec and temperatures. I dont understand how you get the numbers of 38-41 idle. Cause my idle right now are 28-33c across cores. Got a game running in the background while writing this.

What is your ambient since you can get the 3770k at such low temps with an aircooler. Seems to me those temps are watercooled.

I know that im close to the point where the air simple cannot lower the temps cause of my ambient. But if i can lower the temps by a little, i will do that.
 
P

proton007

Honorable
Aug 20, 2012
289
0
10,810
28-33 across cores is possible if your room temp is 15-16 deg C.
Then again, it also depends on which application you use to measure temp.
I'm using coretemp.

My ambient usually runs from 26-28.
At idle, the temps are around 40-41 deg C.

The value I'm referring for my cooler is the Delta T.
 
D

dianish

Honorable
May 27, 2012
30
0
10,530
Software used:

AI Suite

HW monitor

Real Temp

Core Temp

MSI Afterburner

CPU-z

They all show the same temps within a 1-3 range of each other.

So, according to what you say, my temps are not possible with my current ambient?
 
P

proton007

Honorable
Aug 20, 2012
289
0
10,810


If your room temp is 26, and your core temp is 28, I'd say either something's not right, you're getting the wrong value, or you have the mother of all cooling setups.
 
D

dianish

Honorable
May 27, 2012
30
0
10,530
I have worked and tweaked and played around for quite a while now. Just to make it cooler.

The intake sucks in air from a cool concrete wall. The exhausts are fairly cool when holding a hand near it. During stress test its possible to feel a tiny bit of warmth, no where near hot. But not in idle.

Case cooling:

I had 3x120mm (47 cfm) NZXT stock fans intake at first. 1 192mm (166 cfm) nzxt fan exhaust. and a 120mm(47 cfm) nzxt stock fan as exhaust. It had more turbulens than it should.

Changed to winsdows sidepanel instead of meshed panel. Removed to 2x120mm fans from the side. Left the one in the front and back. Added another 192mm fans at the top. and put on filters on the left over meshed panels. Both sides of the front.

Turbulens was gone and the temps got lowered quite a bit. Got about 416 cfm or so blowing through the case. Dont have air pockets. Got a nice negative pressure inside the case. Had better luck with negativ than positive.

Got 2x120mm Cooler Master R4's on the GPU and 2x120mm Cooler Master R4's on the Noctua NH-D14 heatsink.

CPU idle voltage is 0.9-1.03 - On load they go up to 1.34(Was not able to get it stable with lower load voltage - Still working on that. Its stable at a fixed voltage at 1.27. But not when powersaving are enabled. 1.34 is the lowest stable i get.

My sensors doesnt seem broken. Not at all. None of them are show low temps or high temps. Even tryed to put my hand on the heatsinks during stresstest and they wasnt even warm as they were before.

If you are right... How to see if sensors are broken or just way off?


 
D

dianish

Honorable
May 27, 2012
30
0
10,530
Just checked RealTemp..

Temps the last 1½ hour

Lowest: 28c, 28c, 26c, 32c

Highest: 42c, 46c, 41c, 46c,

Im still gaming(running in background while writing).

I dont think the sensor are way or broken. When putting my had inside the case its getting to cold for me and give me the chills.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts

Moderators online

Share this page

COMPANY
RESOURCES
FOLLOW
Top Bottom