warrior guide to tanking...what the hell is the rest of th..

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Hello,

Went to start last night in a 10 man raid pickup group. The first few sets
of mobs were chaos (not much better with the rest). 2 warriors (myself)
carrying shield believe it or not. The hunter pulled the mobs and myself
and the other tank grabbed them when they came in ( demoralizing shout and
TC). Immediately the whole raid party started firing at off mobs and
whatever their mice could click on. The mage's first complaint was the
tanks need to keep aggro better. OMG I said its impossible to keep aggro
when the attack isn't coordinated, tanks need time to build threat it isn't
instant. The group continued to attack immediately, the most time given was
one second. toons continued to attack when mobs were being taunted off
them..... What the hell are people smoking. These are all 60 lvl toons and
they might as well be back playing with noobs.

An idiot hunter or mage stealing aggro from a plate wearer and not giving it
up by continuing to attack when the tank gets the mob off them (a tank will
lose every time). Now the priest is healing multiple toons depleting their
mana having to heal cloth and mail which builds up their threat quick. The
tank cant gain much rage because they are not being hit and its wasted
trying to out duel a high dps toon.

Below is a decent tank guide with some useful tips. Unfortunately it fails
to take into account what the other party members are doing. In an ideal
world this guide is perfect but unless the party plays by the same concept
chaos ensues (in a 10 man raid where mistakes are easily forgiven or
overcome by sheer DPS, chaos may be considered to be "good job"). I do not
want to overstate the tanks role, I think every toon plays a role within a
party but a specific role versatility and ingenuity is a bonus . Having
said that if a mage wants to take melee damage they should have rolled a
plate wearer. IMHO the healer and tank with respect to party survival are
the most important, lose either and the parties survival rate decreases
really fast.

http://strategy.worldofwar.net/news.php?id=53

What I would like to see is a guide such as this that builds from the tank
out to include and outline the roles of the different toon types. The Do's
and Don'ts. Why stealing aggro is wrong (and not giving it up), the
consequences to the dynamics of the attack. How to handle off mobs etc.

feides
 
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feides wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Went to start last night in a 10 man raid pickup group. The first few sets
> of mobs were chaos (not much better with the rest). 2 warriors (myself)

Pick-up raids/instances are fine at pre-end game level. For end-game
instances/raids, you're better off teaming with your guildsmate or
someone whom you have work with before.

With good guildmates/friends, we're able to do RFD with 3 people (a
rogue, a fury dual-wield warrior, and a druid) and suffered only 1
wipe.

I'm surprised that no one take charged after first couple chaos
battles. If there is no leader risen to the call, it's time for you to
bail out and look for a new group. Otherwise, it ain't fun to go
through instances/raid like this.
 
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"feides" <nothing@nothing.com> wrote in
news:dg7bvm$t3t$1@rumours.uwaterloo.ca:

>
> Hello,
>
> Went to start last night in a 10 man raid pickup group. The first few
> sets of mobs were chaos (not much better with the rest). 2 warriors
> (myself) carrying shield believe it or not. The hunter pulled the
> mobs and myself and the other tank grabbed them when they came in (
> demoralizing shout and TC). Immediately the whole raid party started
> firing at off mobs and whatever their mice could click on. The mage's
> first complaint was the tanks need to keep aggro better. OMG I said
> its impossible to keep aggro when the attack isn't coordinated, tanks
> need time to build threat it isn't instant. The group continued to
> attack immediately, the most time given was one second. toons
> continued to attack when mobs were being taunted off them..... What
> the hell are people smoking. These are all 60 lvl toons and they
> might as well be back playing with noobs.

/editorial on

Welcome to WoW. It seems to me that WoW has been designed (at least in the
majority of the content) to require a much lower level of strategy and
players playing their role where combat is concerned. I'm just in my 20's,
but I've yet to see an instance/encounter that wasn't beatable with a
simple zerg approach. Sure, a few group member may die along the way, but
it seems that the concensus is that it's better to just rez them or let
them release and catch up when they can get back to their corpse.

It seems like it's designed to accommodate those who use the same tactics
in a group/raid as they might when solo'ing.

> An idiot hunter or mage stealing aggro from a plate wearer and not
> giving it up by continuing to attack when the tank gets the mob off
> them (a tank will lose every time). Now the priest is healing
> multiple toons depleting their mana having to heal cloth and mail
> which builds up their threat quick. The tank cant gain much rage
> because they are not being hit and its wasted trying to out duel a
> high dps toon.

Like I said, when so much of the content is doable that way, there's little
incentive for them to consider a more efficient and effective approach. Add
to that the fact that dying is at worst just a quick run back to their
corpse in untouchable ghost mode, and they have little reason to worry
about it.

/editorial off

IMO FWIW YMMV

--
Richard Carpenter
 
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In article <Xns96D0AA49A3FF6RichardCarpenterRumb@204.127.204.17>,
Richard Carpenter <Rich_Carpenter@spamsuxmsn.com> wrote:

> "feides" <nothing@nothing.com> wrote in
> news:dg7bvm$t3t$1@rumours.uwaterloo.ca:
>
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Went to start last night in a 10 man raid pickup group. The first few
> > sets of mobs were chaos (not much better with the rest). 2 warriors
> > (myself) carrying shield believe it or not. The hunter pulled the
> > mobs and myself and the other tank grabbed them when they came in (
> > demoralizing shout and TC). Immediately the whole raid party started
> > firing at off mobs and whatever their mice could click on. The mage's
> > first complaint was the tanks need to keep aggro better. OMG I said
> > its impossible to keep aggro when the attack isn't coordinated, tanks
> > need time to build threat it isn't instant. The group continued to
> > attack immediately, the most time given was one second. toons
> > continued to attack when mobs were being taunted off them..... What
> > the hell are people smoking. These are all 60 lvl toons and they
> > might as well be back playing with noobs.
>
> /editorial on
>
> Welcome to WoW. It seems to me that WoW has been designed (at least in the
> majority of the content) to require a much lower level of strategy and
> players playing their role where combat is concerned. I'm just in my 20's,
> but I've yet to see an instance/encounter that wasn't beatable with a
> simple zerg approach. Sure, a few group member may die along the way, but
> it seems that the concensus is that it's better to just rez them or let
> them release and catch up when they can get back to their corpse.

In later instances, this is a guaranteed wipe - and when it takes
multiple hours to advance, this is NOT a happy thing.

Zergers are a #1 reason to leave a raid, or to boot them.

> It seems like it's designed to accommodate those who use the same tactics
> in a group/raid as they might when solo'ing.

Again, not in later instances. I've not been to Onyxia or Molten Core
yet, but the tactics to win there I've read about and been told are
stringent and NOT comperable to solo play in any way - each member of
the party has a job to do, and do it well as they can.

Someone posted the Leeroy Jenkins video recently, it's an excellent
example of what happens i higher level instances when ONE player zergs -
an almost instant wipe.

> > An idiot hunter or mage stealing aggro from a plate wearer and not
> > giving it up by continuing to attack when the tank gets the mob off
> > them (a tank will lose every time). Now the priest is healing
> > multiple toons depleting their mana having to heal cloth and mail
> > which builds up their threat quick. The tank cant gain much rage
> > because they are not being hit and its wasted trying to out duel a
> > high dps toon.
>
> Like I said, when so much of the content is doable that way, there's little
> incentive for them to consider a more efficient and effective approach. Add
> to that the fact that dying is at worst just a quick run back to their
> corpse in untouchable ghost mode, and they have little reason to worry
> about it.

You may be just getting into really, really lousy pickup groups.

My experience is, once you start running instances like Zul Farrak and
later, strategy is crucial, because one mis-step can wipe the party in
seconds. If your group starts attacking mobs without discussing roles,
I'd leave, because all you'll get is lots of time running back, really
expensive repair bills, wasted resources, and really pissy players.

Zergers are just as bad as ninjas, IMHO. They waste your time.
 
G

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"feides" <nothing@nothing.com> schreef in bericht
news:dg7bvm$t3t$1@rumours.uwaterloo.ca...
>
> Hello,
>
> Went to start last night in a 10 man raid pickup group. The first few
sets
> of mobs were chaos (not much better with the rest). 2 warriors (myself)
> carrying shield believe it or not. The hunter pulled the mobs and myself
> and the other tank grabbed them when they came in ( demoralizing shout and
> TC). Immediately the whole raid party started firing at off mobs and
> whatever their mice could click on. The mage's first complaint was the
> tanks need to keep aggro better. OMG I said its impossible to keep aggro
> when the attack isn't coordinated, tanks need time to build threat it
isn't
> instant. The group continued to attack immediately, the most time given
was
> one second. toons continued to attack when mobs were being taunted off
> them..... What the hell are people smoking. These are all 60 lvl toons
and
> they might as well be back playing with noobs.
>
> An idiot hunter or mage stealing aggro from a plate wearer and not giving
it
> up by continuing to attack when the tank gets the mob off them (a tank
will
> lose every time). Now the priest is healing multiple toons depleting
their
> mana having to heal cloth and mail which builds up their threat quick.
The
> tank cant gain much rage because they are not being hit and its wasted
> trying to out duel a high dps toon.
>
> Below is a decent tank guide with some useful tips. Unfortunately it
fails
> to take into account what the other party members are doing. In an ideal
> world this guide is perfect but unless the party plays by the same concept
> chaos ensues (in a 10 man raid where mistakes are easily forgiven or
> overcome by sheer DPS, chaos may be considered to be "good job"). I do
not
> want to overstate the tanks role, I think every toon plays a role within a
> party but a specific role versatility and ingenuity is a bonus . Having
> said that if a mage wants to take melee damage they should have rolled a
> plate wearer. IMHO the healer and tank with respect to party survival are
> the most important, lose either and the parties survival rate decreases
> really fast.
>
> http://strategy.worldofwar.net/news.php?id=53
>
> What I would like to see is a guide such as this that builds from the tank
> out to include and outline the roles of the different toon types. The
Do's
> and Don'ts. Why stealing aggro is wrong (and not giving it up), the
> consequences to the dynamics of the attack. How to handle off mobs etc.
>
> feides
>
>
>

Reminds me of an LBRS run today. I got invited cause they lost their second
priest (playing priest myself). All chars where lvl 60. I thought first they
were doing an UBRS run, cause of a 15 man raid (yes believe it or not). when
I got summoned when I entered the instance it looked like they where
allready halfway the LBRS.
We started to move on again, me doing flash heals here and there. I noticed
that the other priest in group isn't really doing much. I had a conversation
going allready with some1 else from the raidgroup and he noticed that as
well. at the end the guy pulled open his dmg meters to check healing done. I
had 70% healing done and I was only invited halfway the run. How's this
possible??? :p How can I do 70% healing when joined halfway and he had 30%
and he was there from the start. Needless to say some guys from the raid
noticed this as well and after having a conversation it seems like he had no
addons or so, so he only could heal his own group (unable to see the other 2
groups). But I also healed his group (the 2 tanks where in it) and so he
actually never finished his greater healing spells on them, cause I was
faster with my flash heals. Gave him some advice wich addon's he should have
(ct_raid / decursive) in the end. But u see, even lvl 60 players can still
learn stuff.
 
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"feides" <nothing@nothing.com> wrote:

> What I would like to see is a guide such as this that builds from the tank
> out to include and outline the roles of the different toon types. The Do's
> and Don'ts. Why stealing aggro is wrong (and not giving it up), the
> consequences to the dynamics of the attack. How to handle off mobs etc.

http://www.wildcard7.com/_temp/groupcombat.pdf, Chapter 2

You're experiencing the common madness of the endgame instances. I've totally
given up to ask anyone what the hell they're thinking when it looks like
they just right click anything that's red, because when raiding Stratholme,
Scholo or UBRS, you're so overpowered that it still works. It takes longer
if people have no idea what they're doing, but wipes are rather rare.
On the other hand, when 5 manning such an instance (DM, Strat, Scholo, LBRS),
it's absolutely crucial to act as a team. That's why I usually don't join
such runs anymore if I don't know everyone who's in can act like a part of
a team - I can't stand to wipe every 2 or 3 pulls.

Chris

--
[WoW] Wildcard - Treehugging Tauren (60) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Lonewalker - Striding Tauren (21) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jazrah - Brutal Troll (16) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
Jivarr - Charming Troll (12) on EN Sunstrider [PvP]
 

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feides wrote:

> Went to start last night in a 10 man raid pickup group. The first few sets
> of mobs were chaos (not much better with the rest).

Thats what you have to expect when raiding instances like Strat or
Scholo in Pick-ups.
When the raid doesnt care about tanking, you as warrior shoudnt care either.
Just pull out your 2-hander, change to Berserker-Stance and tell
everyone in /raid they are nuking and healing at their own risk now,
since you refuse to (try) tank in zerg-groups. :)
The Slaughterhause event or the baron is always funny when theres no one
tanking.
This poor cloth wearers die so fast...
 
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>> Went to start last night in a 10 man raid pickup group. The first few
>> sets
>> of mobs were chaos (not much better with the rest).
>
> Thats what you have to expect when raiding instances like Strat or Scholo
> in Pick-ups.
> When the raid doesnt care about tanking, you as warrior shoudnt care
> either.
> Just pull out your 2-hander, change to Berserker-Stance and tell everyone
> in /raid they are nuking and healing at their own risk now, since you
> refuse to (try) tank in zerg-groups. :)
> The Slaughterhause event or the baron is always funny when theres no one
> tanking.
> This poor cloth wearers die so fast...

I love that idea... my new motto "I refuse to (try) tank in zerg-groups.
:)".

the zerg reference throughout the posts has put it in perspective for me. I
have tried in the past few weeks doing more 5 man BRD, Baron and Scholomance
runs. They definitely are more enjoyable and the people doing them while
not always terrific players are atleast attempting to learn and play as a
team. I am in a very small (very) guild that cant really do these runs so
5 man trips are hard to come by but I think ill be more patient and take the
time for a 5 man group to form.

Thx all.
 
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> You may be just getting into really, really lousy pickup groups.
>
> My experience is, once you start running instances like Zul Farrak and
> later, strategy is crucial, because one mis-step can wipe the party in
> seconds. If your group starts attacking mobs without discussing roles,
> I'd leave, because all you'll get is lots of time running back, really
> expensive repair bills, wasted resources, and really pissy players.
>
> Zergers are just as bad as ninjas, IMHO. They waste your time.

True that - I play a warlock, and at 60 I can do some serious DPS. I was
grouped with a warrior, and a shammy, with a 55ish priest friend of the
tanks along for the healing. I can only think the tank was ebayed
because the shammy and I got yelled at a couple of times for not
starting in with the nuking and dps-fu as soon as the tank pulled. After
we both told him *why* we needed to hold off a bit to let him get agro
we degrouped and added him to the ignore list. I *think* he and the
priest were regular hunting buddies and never really grouped before as I
don't know many priests that don't understand the concept of letting the
tank take the damage to keep us tissue wearers alive.

Now I got into a rosco-alliance 20 man raid on the new instanced
playground last night [rosco is an alliance of horde guilds on my server
to help us all work on more organized raids.] We wiped a few times on
the first named as we worked out strategy - but that is to be expected
because we needed to feel out what his strengths and weaknesses are, and
how the spot pulls. Well worth the time and effort, as now we know what
to expect and how to deal with the differnt sets of mobs as they arrive.

<ah, the wonders of working with a group of people that understand the
mechanics of a good system =)>
 

Mel

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If you check out most of the community web site forums you will see "A
Mage's (or Warlock or whatever) Guide to Instancing" somewhere in there.
Not all players like going to the forums though, so not everyone has
read the guides....

What is hard for many (cloth) players to grasp is how long you need to
let the tank build aggro. It can be extremly confusing for those that
don't know warriors caracteristics - a cloth will see that sometimes he
can go at it after 1 seconds no problems, and other times they'll have
to wait 3 or 5 seconds.... a lot depends on the Tank and his spec and
equipement... as a mage finding out after 2 wipes that the warrior that
wanted to MT isn't specialised defense when there's another warrior who
is in the raid, I can attest that talking before is important.....

Don't be shy about telling everyone how much time you need to build
aggro, and don't be shy about using a "go now" to let them know it's safe.

Often new cloths will see the MT life bar go down and panic 'cause they
don't realise it's normal. And they may not know that good tanking
involves getting hit on by all the mobs, not just one....

Spend a little time chit chating before a pick up, it's worth it. And
normally it takes long enough to fill the raid out that you can take the
time.

4 lines of text and you can agree on rules for everyone, example:

BoPickup - pass, BoEquip - roll (or whatever your loot rules are)
Should I tank?
If I'm tanking, don't attack until I say "go" so that I can build aggro
Everybody attack my target unless charming or sheeping or entraving



If they don't want to listen, they won't, but at least you'll be able to
go to the repair shop knowing you tried! and you'll be able to see who
listened and who is worth getting to know better.


(and no, not all pick-ups are a disaster; I do plenty, despite having a
good circle of guildmates and friends, what generally happens in a group
of "good players" that don't know each other is we get a wipe 'cause
everyone has different habits, we rez, start discussing, then finish the
rest in style.)


Mage, Kirin Tor








feides a écrit :
> Hello,
>
> Went to start last night in a 10 man raid pickup group. The first few sets
> of mobs were chaos (not much better with the rest). 2 warriors (myself)
> carrying shield believe it or not. The hunter pulled the mobs and myself
> and the other tank grabbed them when they came in ( demoralizing shout and
> TC). Immediately the whole raid party started firing at off mobs and
> whatever their mice could click on. The mage's first complaint was the
> tanks need to keep aggro better. OMG I said its impossible to keep aggro
> when the attack isn't coordinated, tanks need time to build threat it isn't
> instant. The group continued to attack immediately, the most time given was
> one second. toons continued to attack when mobs were being taunted off
> them..... What the hell are people smoking. These are all 60 lvl toons and
> they might as well be back playing with noobs.
>
> An idiot hunter or mage stealing aggro from a plate wearer and not giving it
> up by continuing to attack when the tank gets the mob off them (a tank will
> lose every time). Now the priest is healing multiple toons depleting their
> mana having to heal cloth and mail which builds up their threat quick. The
> tank cant gain much rage because they are not being hit and its wasted
> trying to out duel a high dps toon.
>
> Below is a decent tank guide with some useful tips. Unfortunately it fails
> to take into account what the other party members are doing. In an ideal
> world this guide is perfect but unless the party plays by the same concept
> chaos ensues (in a 10 man raid where mistakes are easily forgiven or
> overcome by sheer DPS, chaos may be considered to be "good job"). I do not
> want to overstate the tanks role, I think every toon plays a role within a
> party but a specific role versatility and ingenuity is a bonus . Having
> said that if a mage wants to take melee damage they should have rolled a
> plate wearer. IMHO the healer and tank with respect to party survival are
> the most important, lose either and the parties survival rate decreases
> really fast.
>
> http://strategy.worldofwar.net/news.php?id=53
>
> What I would like to see is a guide such as this that builds from the tank
> out to include and outline the roles of the different toon types. The Do's
> and Don'ts. Why stealing aggro is wrong (and not giving it up), the
> consequences to the dynamics of the attack. How to handle off mobs etc.
>
> feides
>
>
>