[Exalted] Show me how to twink out a Lunar.

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I'm told that it's entirely possible to design a combat-specialised Lunar
who will kick any equivalently experienced Solar's ass in a stand-up fight,
but I'm not seeing it. I know that ass-kicking is supposed to be the
Lunars' "thing", but no matter what I come up with, there always seems to be
a Solar build that trumps it (a *zero-XP* Solar build, in most cases). I
freely grant, however, that this may be due to my lack of familiarity with
Lunars; unlike Solars or Sidereals and their neatly-organised Ability-linked
Charm paths, Lunar Charms are all over the place - from what I can see, the
best syngergies for Lunars often come from entirely unrelated chains, while
many of the "standard" syngergies that work for Solars and Sidereals are
explicitly forbidden for Lunars.

Can anyone help me to be a better munchkin?

(Oh, and no Martial Arts - I realise that a Lunar can just pick up a
Celestial MA form to fill in the gaps in his combat abilities, and that many
MA charms from the "animal" styles function a whole lot like upgraded Lunar
charms with more expensive buy-ins anyway, but that's not the point.)

- David Prokopetz.

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David Prokopetz wrote:

> <snip>

> Um... doesn't Lunar hardness max out at twelve, too?

> (Other than that, it looks good, but that uberhardness you're counting on
> could be a sticking point...)

I've heard the interpretation that once a Lunar maxes out his hardness,
increases in hardness would alternate between increasing hardness and
soak. I have /never/ heard the interpretation that a Lunar can push his
hardness /above/ his soak, until James wrote a long post about it.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

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James Stein declared:

> I shall take you under my wing, my son.

... and proceeded to post an excellent how-to manual on how to beat ass
with a Lunar. Take a bow, James. You done good.

However, I must take a moment to complain that while Lunars are /death/
in clinches, they are not so hot in non-clinching Brawl or Melee--
especially given that they pay more for Charms than any other Celestial.
I would still like to see this remedied; Lunars should have more combat
options than "grab you and hug you to death."
--
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"In my case, they made an exception."
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> My complaint is that Lunars often feel like the bastard half-brother of
> the Celestials. In particular, the source material seemed to hint that
> they were a close second to the Solars, and definitely superior to the
> Sidereals, who were the least combative. Instead I find that a PC-level
> Sidereal of reasonable XP can hand a Lunar his ass. And then there are
> mechanical contrivances like "Lunars pay 50% more than Solars and 36%
> more than Sidereals for Charms" and "Lunars have an inexplicable
> inability to learn Sidereal Martial Arts and cannot get Favored Ability
> discounts on Martial Arts Charms." Though I am sure the developers had
> reasons for making decisions like this, they feel like irrational
penalties.


> My complaint is that Lunars often feel like the bastard half-brother of
> the Celestials. In particular, the source material seemed to hint that
> they were a close second to the Solars, and definitely superior to the
> Sidereals, who were the least combative. Instead I find that a PC-level
> Sidereal of reasonable XP can hand a Lunar his ass. And then there are
> mechanical contrivances like "Lunars pay 50% more than Solars and 36%
> more than Sidereals for Charms" and "Lunars have an inexplicable
> inability to learn Sidereal Martial Arts and cannot get Favored Ability
> discounts on Martial Arts Charms." Though I am sure the developers had
> reasons for making decisions like this, they feel like irrational
penalties.

Agreed. Further, by contrivance of the setting, there's no reasonable way
any Solar can learn Sidereal level Martial Arts, much less a Lunar.

Nuh uh, not in my game. In my setting, the Sidereals, Solars and Lunars
jointly developed the advanced Martial Arts styles, and young Lunars have
their own 1st Age Elders to go on pilgrimage to for these earth shaking
secrets.

But then, my Exalted setting is hardly canonical, anyway.

I'm not sure how comfortable I am with giving Lunars the same XP as Solars.
The ability to rapidly progress is a Solar strength.

CB

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Groovelord wrote:
>>My complaint is that Lunars often feel like the bastard half-brother of
>>the Celestials. In particular, the source material seemed to hint that
>>they were a close second to the Solars, and definitely superior to the
>>Sidereals, who were the least combative. Instead I find that a PC-level
>>Sidereal of reasonable XP can hand a Lunar his ass. And then there are
>>mechanical contrivances like "Lunars pay 50% more than Solars and 36%
>>more than Sidereals for Charms" and "Lunars have an inexplicable
>>inability to learn Sidereal Martial Arts and cannot get Favored Ability
>>discounts on Martial Arts Charms." Though I am sure the developers had
>>reasons for making decisions like this, they feel like irrational
>> penalties.
>
> Agreed. Further, by contrivance of the setting, there's no reasonable way
> any Solar can learn Sidereal level Martial Arts, much less a Lunar.

I am actually pretty okay with that. Sidereal Martial Arts are an ace
in the hole for the Chosen of the Maidens; why would they give away such
a powerful advantage? And, of course, should you decide that you want to
introduce Sidereal Martial Arts to your Solars or Abyssals game, there
are a variety of story ways to do so, ranging from "a Gold Faction elder
wants to use you as a tool against the Bronze Faction" to "grab a
Sidereal and use magic to make him teach you."

There is a big difference between "nobody will teach you this" and "you
are inherently incapable of learning this."

> Nuh uh, not in my game. In my setting, the Sidereals, Solars and Lunars
> jointly developed the advanced Martial Arts styles, and young Lunars have
> their own 1st Age Elders to go on pilgrimage to for these earth shaking
> secrets.
>
> But then, my Exalted setting is hardly canonical, anyway.
>
> I'm not sure how comfortable I am with giving Lunars the same XP as Solars.
> The ability to rapidly progress is a Solar strength.

I do not suggest that Lunars pay the SAME XP costs as Solars, but the
current prices do seem rather high.
--
[The address listed is a spam trap. To reply, take off every zig.]

"I wasn't aware the Tokyo police employed uneducated, paranoid,
delusional foreign delinquents."
"In my case, they made an exception."
-- MegaTokyo

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Richard Clayton wrote:

> > I'm not sure how comfortable I am with giving Lunars the same XP as Solars.
> > The ability to rapidly progress is a Solar strength.
>
> I do not suggest that Lunars pay the SAME XP costs as Solars, but the
> current prices do seem rather high.
> --

You know, even Alchemicals kick lunars' asses.

Lunars get their big XP break on 3 stats; and with the way lunars get
their big stat spread, that's - at best - 3 dots that you're buying.
Even so far back as ToT, the designers realized that giving you an XP
break on only 3 stats was bullshit, and gave Alchemicals like ... what
was it... 6 stats to favor?

I *will* sit down and fix Lunars one day, charm by charm, rule by rule.

I have drugs and free time. You know it'll happen.

Just not today. 'Cause I have home-schooling today.

And even so, I wrote up 5 CS's today - a twinked out circle of Abyssals,
with which to conquer Creation. (Specifically twinked out to conquer
Creation.)

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"James Stein"

> No, they're not. Not completely. But it's the writer's fault for making
> it *seem* that way - and the writer *does*. If you read the Storytelling
> chapter, you'll note a whole lot of "Don't do this, this, this, or
> this," without any real "*Do* this." So there's a lot of "They're not
> just barbarians!" Without any non-barbarian concepts being put forward.
> You can't blame readers for reading the book the way that they do.

One of the first rules of directing: when you're on the set, refrain from
using (as in, don't ever use) negative language. Not that you can't be
negative about things, but don't use words like "Never" and "Don't". You're
there to create a positive environment for the cast and crew. You're there
to encourage. I feel that the storytelling aspect of RPGs has the same
burden.

> Or, to paraphrase a previous conversation with Malcolm Sheppard,
> Malcolm: "I'm not here for you to *get it*."
> Me: "Yes. You are."

Storytellers, or people who help give tools to the storyteller, have an
INCREDIBLE responsibility. Which, sadly, more often than not leaves me with
the "So you just want to write for first edition DnD then, don't you?" taste
in my mouth from some people.

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Shane Graves wrote:

> One of the first rules of directing: when you're on the set, refrain from
> using (as in, don't ever use) negative language. Not that you can't be
> negative about things, but don't use words like "Never" and "Don't". You're
> there to create a positive environment for the cast and crew. You're there
> to encourage. I feel that the storytelling aspect of RPGs has the same
> burden.

Ah.

This helps with the understanding of something.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

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Shane Graves wrote:

> Oh?

It concerns a discussion I had regarding Nephipal recently on the
Exalted forum. It doesn't make much sense out of context, but
essentially you just backed me up.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

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Stephenls wrote:
>
> Shane Graves wrote:
>
> > Oh?
>
> It concerns a discussion I had regarding Nephipal recently on the
> Exalted forum. It doesn't make much sense out of context, but
> essentially you just backed me up.

In general terms, I agree with you on that discussion. Neph is a good
writer, but there's no need to close any barn doors.

Neph's not the only writer whose instincts go that way, though. It's a
standard way to write RPGs, and so quite a few do that. Some do it more
than others, and Neph is *mostly* okay. He could have, with the Abyssal
die-adder and die-subtracter for Melee, made one a turn-length charm to
explicitly prevent combos. Instead of doubling the cost for comboing
them.

For example.

--
Elizabeth D. Brooks | kali.magdalene@comcast.net | US2002021724
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
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"James Stein" <JamesSpamtein@si.rr.com> wrote in message
news:_rbhc.50767$WA4.29950@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> They're filled with several redundant charms, the majority of which are
> speedbump charms. There is no reason to have *two* charms that *both*
> boost your Dex+Brawl pool for 1 mote/piece, in two different branches of
> the same Unarmed Combat tree. None. No reason. Essentially the same
> charm. Twice. *At* inflated XP costs.

Not to mention stuff like "THIS unarmed combat Charm gives you extra attacks
at three motes per, but it also costs Willpower, you're limited to your
initiative divided by three rounded down worth of extra attacks, and you
can't make more EXTRA attacks than your Essence; meanwhile, meanwhile, THIS
unarmed combat Charm give you extra attacks at three motes per, and has no
Willpower cost, but all your attacks have to strike the same target, your
damage is always considered bashing even if it isn't normally, and you can't
make more TOTAL attacks than your Essence"... oy. O_o;

- Sir Bob.

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James Stein wrote:
> Stephenls wrote:
>
>>Shane Graves wrote:
>>
>>>Oh?
>>
>>It concerns a discussion I had regarding Nephipal recently on the
>>Exalted forum. It doesn't make much sense out of context, but
>>essentially you just backed me up.
>
> Which discussion is this?
>
> I can't keep up with the White Wolf forums. They're just so ...
> inconveniently designed. I usually wait for the handy stuff to end up on
> ThusSpakeNephilpal, but arguments with Stephen don't usually make it
> there, though they're better than the rest of the tripe that ends up on
> the forums.

I don't like most webforums either. I am spoiled by usenet; I want
threading and an easy way to distinguish viewed posts from new posts.
--
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"I wasn't aware the Tokyo police employed uneducated, paranoid,
delusional foreign delinquents."
"In my case, they made an exception."
-- MegaTokyo

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Julie d'Aubigny wrote:

> There's also no real need for "no, you can't do that" rulings in
> Exalted, as it's supposed to be unabashedly power-gaming in mechanical
> terms.

THAT'S WHAT I SAID!

He was all like "No mixed breed God-Bloods. Do you want another Sam
Haigh situation?" And /I/ was all like "Er, yeah. Duh. Exalted,
remember?"
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

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Stephenls wrote:

> THAT'S WHAT I SAID!

> He was all like "No mixed breed God-Bloods. Do you want another Sam
> Haigh situation?" And /I/ was all like "Er, yeah. Duh. Exalted,
> remember?"

And, I mean, to clarify: I don't want a Solar Abyssal Sidereal
Dragon-Blooded God-Blooded Lunar with a Dragon King totem, but jeez, all
your God-Blooded powers come from a pool of points you get from your
Inheritance rating. How hard or unbalancing would it have been to put
in a Merit that lets you chose powers from two separate God-Blood splat
lists?
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

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James Stein wrote:

> Ah. I kept up with those threads, though apparently not long enough to
> reach the part where Neph actually bothered responding.

> Well, no, I seem to recall some of his responses on the Deathlords
> Siring Kids posts.

Neph only replied in the Deathlords Siring Kids thread. He was without
computer access when it went down, and the other one was at 75 posts by
the time he returned.

Stupid forum software.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

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Stephenls wrote:

> Julie d'Aubigny wrote:
>
>> There's also no real need for "no, you can't do that" rulings in
>> Exalted, as it's supposed to be unabashedly power-gaming in mechanical
>> terms.
>
> THAT'S WHAT I SAID!
>
> He was all like "No mixed breed God-Bloods. Do you want another Sam
> Haigh situation?" And /I/ was all like "Er, yeah. Duh. Exalted,
> remember?"

I also question whether a Solar with a limited handful of Lunar Charms
(with no ability to learn more) is likely to break the game. It is clear
from the corebook that /Exalted/ is not built around "game balance" as a
crucial concept.
--
[The address listed is a spam trap. To reply, take off every zig.]

"I wasn't aware the Tokyo police employed uneducated, paranoid,
delusional foreign delinquents."
"In my case, they made an exception."
-- MegaTokyo

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Richard Clayton wrote:
>
> Julie d'Aubigny wrote:
>
> > Stephenls wrote:
> >
> >>Basically, what came out of it is that I'm not a big Neph fan anymore.
> >>When he did reply, he made it fairly plain that he plans to continue
> >>putting "No you can't do that" rulings in the material he writes, which
> >>has me unhappy, since he's working on both Fair Folk and Alchemicals,
> >>but ultimately my opinion is not as important as Geoff's.
> >
> >
> > There's also no real need for "no, you can't do that" rulings in
> > Exalted, as it's supposed to be unabashedly power-gaming in mechanical
> > terms.
>
> You are correct. If you are one of those STs who likes to "keep players
> on a short leash," this is not the game for you.

I was one of the first people to say this online. I wrote briefly in the
Vampire STH about how it's important to say no, it's more important to
know how to say yes. I generalized that over to Exalted in a few
discussions, and I think others - like Rebecca Borgstrom have expressed
similar. Yay! a meme!

--
Elizabeth D. Brooks | kali.magdalene@comcast.net | US2002021724
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"Julie d'Aubigny"
> Richard Clayton wrote:
> > Julie d'Aubigny wrote:
> > > Stephenls wrote:

> > >>Basically, what came out of it is that I'm not a big Neph fan anymore.
> > >>When he did reply, he made it fairly plain that he plans to continue
> > >>putting "No you can't do that" rulings in the material he writes,
which
> > >>has me unhappy, since he's working on both Fair Folk and Alchemicals,
> > >>but ultimately my opinion is not as important as Geoff's.

> > > There's also no real need for "no, you can't do that" rulings in
> > > Exalted, as it's supposed to be unabashedly power-gaming in mechanical
> > > terms.

> > You are correct. If you are one of those STs who likes to "keep
players
> > on a short leash," this is not the game for you.

> I was one of the first people to say this online. I wrote briefly in the
> Vampire STH about how it's important to say no, it's more important to
> know how to say yes. I generalized that over to Exalted in a few
> discussions, and I think others - like Rebecca Borgstrom have expressed
> similar. Yay! a meme!

Well, when it comes to roleplaying, a good "No" once in a while doens't
hurt. I recall a Call of Cthulhu game where someone wanted a stinger (the
anti-aircraft variety). A good "No" worked.

However, the thing is, you don't want to keep shutting down players. Like
when James talked about the Mage game where NOTHING the PC's did mattered,
and it was all up to the NPC popping in the last minute. That discourages
everything a PC could do. Even if a PC fails in doing something, they
should still want to try further challenges.

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Shane Graves wrote:
>>> You are correct. If you are one of those STs who likes to "keep
>>> players on a short leash," this is not the game for you.
>>
>>I was one of the first people to say this online. I wrote briefly in the
>>Vampire STH about how it's important to say no, it's more important to
>>know how to say yes. I generalized that over to Exalted in a few
>>discussions, and I think others - like Rebecca Borgstrom have expressed
>>similar. Yay! a meme!
>
> Well, when it comes to roleplaying, a good "No" once in a while doens't
> hurt. I recall a Call of Cthulhu game where someone wanted a stinger (the
> anti-aircraft variety). A good "No" worked.
>
> However, the thing is, you don't want to keep shutting down players. Like
> when James talked about the Mage game where NOTHING the PC's did mattered,
> and it was all up to the NPC popping in the last minute. That discourages
> everything a PC could do. Even if a PC fails in doing something, they
> should still want to try further challenges.

And what is "no" varies from game to game. Obviously, if you are
playing /Vampire/ and you want to set up a conspicuous, nation-spanning
religion that worships you as a dark god, the ST is perfectly within his
rights to say "Sorry, not going to happen." (Or he could just let you
try, with the admonition that you might as well fax your address,
nightly routine, and feeding habits to every vampire hunter in the
hemisphere.)

On the other hand, this is perfectly in-genre for a Midnight Caste.
--
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"I wasn't aware the Tokyo police employed uneducated, paranoid,
delusional foreign delinquents."
"In my case, they made an exception."
-- MegaTokyo

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Richard Clayton wrote:
>
> Storyteller: "I hate you."

That's why you don't use Lunars for such things. You use Solars or
Abyssals for that "Sorry, no effect" power.

Then again, I don't have a hard time envisioning a perfect defense for
something like Ma Ha Suchi.

> Heh heh. On the other hand, I find that /Exalted/ chronicles
> practically write themselves; your players nearly always have a good
> idea of what they want to do next.

This is true. This is very, very true.

--
Elizabeth D. Brooks | kali.magdalene@comcast.net | US2002021724
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
AeonAdventure | "Dobby likes us!" -- Smeagol
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Deirdre Brooks wrote:

> James Stein wrote:
> >
> > As opposed to DnD. "I defend my village from the goblins."
> >
> > DM: "Goblin one tosses pinecone at you ... 18.... that's 1d3 +1
> > damage... your wizard is dead."
> >
> > "It was a pinecone."
> >
> > "You should've bought Toughness."
>
> This amuses me 'cause I've been playing Neverwinter Nights. My character
> has gone from killing some kobolds and defending her village from a
> powerful tiefling and a young white dragon to stopping a powerful wizard
> from reclaiming the secrets of Netheril.
>
> I suspect such limits aren't so much an issue in D&D.

Actually, the Introduction and Chapter 1 to the official NWN campaign
were my favorite DnD-esque games ever; mostly because you could be so
damned effective *at* the lower levels.

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Deirdre Brooks wrote:

> Richard Clayton wrote:
>
>>Storyteller: "I hate you."
>
>
> That's why you don't use Lunars for such things. You use Solars or
> Abyssals for that "Sorry, no effect" power.
>
> Then again, I don't have a hard time envisioning a perfect defense for
> something like Ma Ha Suchi.

I like Lunars as powerful NPC characters because there are a fair
number of very old Lunars in existence, and they tend to be more
conspicuous than Sidereals. Some of them are also quite changed by their
long experience far from civilization. They're also combat badasses,
although I prefer such an old and important character have a more
complex motivation than "implacable enemy" or "unhesitating, supremely
altruistic ally." In other words, don't try to kill an elder Exalt who
opposes you. Find a way to invoke his self-interest instead.

>> Heh heh. On the other hand, I find that /Exalted/ chronicles
>>practically write themselves; your players nearly always have a good
>>idea of what they want to do next.
>
> This is true. This is very, very true.

And I agree with James, to a degree: There is no glass ceiling in
/Exalted/, and once the players realize that, the sky is the limit. (Did
I just mix a metaphor? Ah well, those two go well together.)

A good example is my first player, who really thought he was sneaking
something clever by me by creating a character with Dexterity 5, Melee
5, a daiklave, and three dots of specialties. "You realize this will
give me THIRTEEN dice in my attack pool!" he cried triumphantly.

"Yeah, I know. Your characters are the personally chosen servants of
the GODS. They're MEANT to be badasses."
--
[The address listed is a spam trap. To reply, take off every zig.]

"I wasn't aware the Tokyo police employed uneducated, paranoid,
delusional foreign delinquents."
"In my case, they made an exception."
-- MegaTokyo

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Sir Bob wrote:
> Richard Clayton <reZIGclaytonZIG@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<c65vnl$8i3e5$1@ID-224727.news.uni-berlin.de>...
>
>>David Prokopetz wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Well, when it comes to roleplaying, a good "No" once in a while doens't
>>>>hurt. I recall a Call of Cthulhu game where someone wanted a stinger (the
>>>>anti-aircraft variety). A good "No" worked.
>>>
>>>Well, there's a difference between "no because it's out-of-genre and
>>>potentially disruptive, perhaps deliberately so" and "no because I, as the
>>>GM, didn't think of it first, and no mere *player* is going to tamper with
>>>my Creative Vision (tm)".
>>
>> Heh. Get used to it
>
> Get used to what, precisely? I think you may have misapprehended the
> position from which I'm speaking here. =p

Get used to your plot occasionally being derailed by your players. (^_^)
--
[The address listed is a spam trap. To reply, take off every zig.]

"I wasn't aware the Tokyo police employed uneducated, paranoid,
delusional foreign delinquents."
"In my case, they made an exception."
-- MegaTokyo

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Richard Clayton wrote:
>
> Deirdre Brooks wrote:
>
> > Richard Clayton wrote:
> >
> >>Storyteller: "I hate you."
> >
> >
> > That's why you don't use Lunars for such things. You use Solars or
> > Abyssals for that "Sorry, no effect" power.
> >
> > Then again, I don't have a hard time envisioning a perfect defense for
> > something like Ma Ha Suchi.
>
> I like Lunars as powerful NPC characters because there are a fair
> number of very old Lunars in existence, and they tend to be more
> conspicuous than Sidereals. Some of them are also quite changed by their
> long experience far from civilization. They're also combat badasses,
> although I prefer such an old and important character have a more
> complex motivation than "implacable enemy" or "unhesitating, supremely
> altruistic ally." In other words, don't try to kill an elder Exalt who
> opposes you. Find a way to invoke his self-interest instead.

Well, yeah, you don't want to go with shallow representations. Which may
be why the PCs in my game courted Raksi, eventually had tea with both
Mnemon and Chejop Kejak, had to fight the Goblin King, and fought
alongside Ma Ha Suchi.

None of them were "unhesitating, supremely altruistic allies," but the
PCs did court them... or in Kejak's case, he courted them.

> >> Heh heh. On the other hand, I find that /Exalted/ chronicles
> >>practically write themselves; your players nearly always have a good
> >>idea of what they want to do next.
> >
> > This is true. This is very, very true.
>
> And I agree with James, to a degree: There is no glass ceiling in
> /Exalted/, and once the players realize that, the sky is the limit. (Did
> I just mix a metaphor? Ah well, those two go well together.)
>
> A good example is my first player, who really thought he was sneaking
> something clever by me by creating a character with Dexterity 5, Melee
> 5, a daiklave, and three dots of specialties. "You realize this will
> give me THIRTEEN dice in my attack pool!" he cried triumphantly.
>
> "Yeah, I know. Your characters are the personally chosen servants of
> the GODS. They're MEANT to be badasses."

This is stuff I was saying when it was okay to talk about Exalted. It's
the game's primary appeal to me.

--
Elizabeth D. Brooks | kali.magdalene@comcast.net | US2002021724
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
AeonAdventure | "Dobby likes us!" -- Smeagol
-- http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/view/6856

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Julie d'Aubigny wrote:

> James Stein wrote:
> >
> > Personal Opinion: I did not like Shadows of Undrentide. It was handy for
> > the extra features, but most of those didn't work if you played them in
> > the original campaign (instead of the expansion), and I didn't like the
> > expansion storyline.
>
> So far, I've found the expansion storyline much more plausible and
> interesting than the OC storyline.
>
> Anyway, it is possible to alter the OC to use the new features.


Which expansion?

I haven't played HU. And SoU played... eh. I don't know. It just wasn't
as smooth as compared to the OC. I enjoyed the OC from start to ...
almost finish. SoU played more like a fan-made mod.