[Exalted] Violet Bier of Sorrows Form

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It just occured to me that this Martial Arts form, while distinctly
Sidereal, is a *Martial Arts Form*.

While it's a signature Sidereal style, it's Celestial Level.

Which means that Solars, Lunars and perhaps even Dragon Blooded can learn
it.

It's pretty powerful, if expensive on the Essence. It includes a die adder
for unarmed MA attacks.

While Gold Faction Sidereals would not teach any Advanced Martial Arts (I
dislike the term 'Sidereal Level' - feh - It's not exclusive to them, just
nearly so) to Solars or Lunars...

Hm...

Violet Bier of Sorrows Form specifically includes Daiklaives as Martial Arts
weapons.

A Solar Dawn with this form would be mighty *sick*. I would rule that
bonuses from Golden Essence Block wouldn't stack from adder dice spent from
Blade of the Battle Maiden on sword attacks. But a Solar or Lunar with
JIAS? I'd also house rule that JIAS would only kick in for rolled parries
and dodges. Making a roll indicates leaving one in the hands of Fate and
thus the Maidens, while using a perfect Dodge of Block Charm indicates
calling upon the ultimate authority of the Unconquered Sun, and thus not
taking risk towards adversity.

On the roleplay side of things, I can imagine the Bronze faction being
aghast at seeing Gold Faction trained Solars using this form. "It's
admonishable! Unpermissable!" (Laughter) "Stop us. Your clumsy guiding of
destiny is over, you old relics. Creation will return to the splendour of
the 1st Age!"

CB

Contemplate, fellows.

CB
 
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Groovelord wrote:

> On the roleplay side of things, I can imagine the Bronze faction being
> aghast at seeing Gold Faction trained Solars using this form. "It's
> admonishable! Unpermissable!" (Laughter) "Stop us. Your clumsy guiding of
> destiny is over, you old relics. Creation will return to the splendour of
> the 1st Age!"

Pretty much.

It's not a special super-secret Sidereal style. It's a Celestial style.
Solars with MA as a favored ability can develop it spontaneously, and
it's as likely to be known by any given Celestial Exalt as any of the
animal forms are.
--
Stephenls
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> It's not a special super-secret Sidereal style. It's a Celestial style.
> Solars with MA as a favored ability can develop it spontaneously, and
> it's as likely to be known by any given Celestial Exalt as any of the
> animal forms are.

Really? I thought all Martial Arts had to be trained, except for 'solar'
styles that the character may have practiced back in the 1st Age.

Shows ya how much I know.

CB
 
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On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 23:58:00 -0700, Stephenls <stephenls@shaw.ca>
wrote:

>It's not a special super-secret Sidereal style. It's a Celestial style.
> Solars with MA as a favored ability can develop it spontaneously,

well, not!
an exalted can only develop spontaneously his native MA styles. wich
means he need a teacher (but not initiation) dor VBoS or any dragon
style.
unless the PG has chaged this, obviously
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Domon wrote:

> well, not!
> an exalted can only develop spontaneously his native MA styles. wich
> means he need a teacher (but not initiation) dor VBoS or any dragon
> style.
> unless the PG has chaged this, obviously

Can you produce a page ref for that? I am not, in fact, aware of any
special limitation on spontaneously developing new MA styles that one
qualifies to learn, though it sounds like the sort of limitation that
STs inclined to say "no" might think is appropriate.

Solars can't spontaneously develop Elemental Dragon styles because those
styles were invented after the Usurpation, so they can't call un
previous life knowledge. Even with that limitation, it's really
trivially easy to put together a background that lets a Solar develop
them. ("I was one of the un-captured Essences, and at one point I was
taught elemental dragon kung fu by a really traitorous Sidereal. It
took 50 immaculates to bring that incarnation down, and I went down in
the early Realm history as one of the worst Anathema ever to show up.")

Violet Bier of Sorrows, on the other hand was a common style in the
First Age, back when First Age Solars were running around and "competent
martial artist" meant "I have a hundred different styles under my belt."
--
Stephenls
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On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 07:47:52 -0700, Stephenls <stephenls@shaw.ca>
wrote:

>Can you produce a page ref for that? I am not, in fact, aware of any
>special limitation on spontaneously developing new MA styles that one
>qualifies to learn, though it sounds like the sort of limitation that
>STs inclined to say "no" might think is appropriate.

sure: Exalted: the Dragon-Blooded, pag. 241 (under "martial arts and
the exalted")

----begin quote

like sorcery, supernatual martial arts are universal among the
exalted. provided they have a tutor, exalted of any type can learn the
martial arts of the five dragon paths of the immauclate dragons (or
even the inferior style of the dragon-blooded). likewise, if taught,
the dragon-blooded cuold master snake style, tiger style or any other
style practiced by the anathema.
storyteller should decide what an appropriate tutor is. normally,
exalted who "naturally" or "commonly" pratice a supernatural martial
art (for example, animal styles among the solar anathema) don't need
tutors according to the rules. but a storyteller who wants to be a
stickler or to use them as a plot device may require such a tutor for
charms higher in the tree than the style's form charm...

---end quote

by the way, for the first time i think i could have misinterpreted the
text: maybe it means that solars can develop any style up to the form?

>Solars can't spontaneously develop Elemental Dragon styles because those
>styles were invented after the Usurpation, so they can't call un
>previous life knowledge. Even with that limitation, it's really
>trivially easy to put together a background that lets a Solar develop
>them.

i don't think that's the reason. it's just that those style are not
"solar-aspected" or they should develop them just by looking at them
:D

>Violet Bier of Sorrows, on the other hand was a common style in the
>First Age, back when First Age Solars were running around and "competent
>martial artist" meant "I have a hundred different styles under my belt."

i can see your point.
now i'm undecided :D
--
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i'm free if that bitch dies...
....i'd better help her out...
Domon
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Domon wrote:

>
> by the way, for the first time i think i could have misinterpreted the
> text: maybe it means that solars can develop any style up to the form?

You did misinterpret; in applying a rule that is most clearly talking
*about Dragon-blooded* to *Solars*.
 
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James Stein wrote:

> Domon wrote:
>
> >
> > by the way, for the first time i think i could have misinterpreted the
> > text: maybe it means that solars can develop any style up to the form?
>
> You did misinterpret; in applying a rule that is most clearly talking
> *about Dragon-blooded* to *Solars*.

And, yeah, I saw the line about "Common to them (animal styles among
anathema)", but *everything* is common to Solars, given the past life
thing. I just thought I should make that logic-connection clear, before
people jump on me by quoting that line.
 
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James Stein wrote:
> James Stein wrote:
>
>
>>Domon wrote:
>>
>>
>>>by the way, for the first time i think i could have misinterpreted the
>>>text: maybe it means that solars can develop any style up to the form?
>>
>>You did misinterpret; in applying a rule that is most clearly talking
>>*about Dragon-blooded* to *Solars*.
>
>
> And, yeah, I saw the line about "Common to them (animal styles among
> anathema)", but *everything* is common to Solars, given the past life
> thing. I just thought I should make that logic-connection clear, before
> people jump on me by quoting that line.

Combining this thread with the "Lunar's got screwed" thread: what
Martial Arts are lunars allowed to purchase/develop?

William
 
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On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:38:32 GMT, James Stein
<JamesSpamtein@si.rr.com> wrote:

>> > by the way, for the first time i think i could have misinterpreted the
>> > text: maybe it means that solars can develop any style up to the form?
>>
>> You did misinterpret; in applying a rule that is most clearly talking
>> *about Dragon-blooded* to *Solars*.
>
>And, yeah, I saw the line about "Common to them (animal styles among
>anathema)", but *everything* is common to Solars, given the past life
>thing. I just thought I should make that logic-connection clear, before
>people jump on me by quoting that line.

now, if only i could get an official word on it, i could finally buy
the BotBM charm for my zenith and live happily (new snake style, ebon
shadow AND VBoS? come forth, immaculates :D)
--
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i'm free if that bitch dies...
....i'd better help her out...
Domon
per rispondermi, togli il FILTRO!
 
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William wrote:

> James Stein wrote:
> > James Stein wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Domon wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>by the way, for the first time i think i could have misinterpreted the
> >>>text: maybe it means that solars can develop any style up to the form?
> >>
> >>You did misinterpret; in applying a rule that is most clearly talking
> >>*about Dragon-blooded* to *Solars*.
> >
> >
> > And, yeah, I saw the line about "Common to them (animal styles among
> > anathema)", but *everything* is common to Solars, given the past life
> > thing. I just thought I should make that logic-connection clear, before
> > people jump on me by quoting that line.
>
> Combining this thread with the "Lunar's got screwed" thread: what
> Martial Arts are lunars allowed to purchase/develop?

Everything but Sidereal-level MA's. They've still got First Age lunars
in the Silver Pact, and they have celestial past life memories, so
finding a mentor is not generally an issue.
 
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James Stein wrote:

> William wrote:
>
>
>>James Stein wrote:
>>
>>>James Stein wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Domon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>by the way, for the first time i think i could have misinterpreted the
>>>>>text: maybe it means that solars can develop any style up to the form?
>>>>
>>>>You did misinterpret; in applying a rule that is most clearly talking
>>>>*about Dragon-blooded* to *Solars*.
>>>
>>>
>>>And, yeah, I saw the line about "Common to them (animal styles among
>>>anathema)", but *everything* is common to Solars, given the past life
>>>thing. I just thought I should make that logic-connection clear, before
>>>people jump on me by quoting that line.
>>
>>Combining this thread with the "Lunar's got screwed" thread: what
>>Martial Arts are lunars allowed to purchase/develop?
>
>
> Everything but Sidereal-level MA's. They've still got First Age lunars
> in the Silver Pact, and they have celestial past life memories, so
> finding a mentor is not generally an issue.
>
>

Still pay more for it than anyone else though, right?

William
 
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William wrote:

> James Stein wrote:
>
> > William wrote:
> >
> >
> >>James Stein wrote:
> >>
> >>>James Stein wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Domon wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>by the way, for the first time i think i could have misinterpreted the
> >>>>>text: maybe it means that solars can develop any style up to the form?
> >>>>
> >>>>You did misinterpret; in applying a rule that is most clearly talking
> >>>>*about Dragon-blooded* to *Solars*.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>And, yeah, I saw the line about "Common to them (animal styles among
> >>>anathema)", but *everything* is common to Solars, given the past life
> >>>thing. I just thought I should make that logic-connection clear, before
> >>>people jump on me by quoting that line.
> >>
> >>Combining this thread with the "Lunar's got screwed" thread: what
> >>Martial Arts are lunars allowed to purchase/develop?
> >
> >
> > Everything but Sidereal-level MA's. They've still got First Age lunars
> > in the Silver Pact, and they have celestial past life memories, so
> > finding a mentor is not generally an issue.
> >
> >
>
> Still pay more for it than anyone else though, right?


Of course.
 
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Stephenls wrote:
>
> Solars can't spontaneously develop Elemental Dragon styles because those
> styles were invented after the Usurpation, so they can't call un
> previous life knowledge. Even with that limitation, it's really
> trivially easy to put together a background that lets a Solar develop
> them. ("I was one of the un-captured Essences, and at one point I was
> taught elemental dragon kung fu by a really traitorous Sidereal. It
> took 50 immaculates to bring that incarnation down, and I went down in
> the early Realm history as one of the worst Anathema ever to show up.")

The one I'm using at the moment (although not playing, just messing
around):

"I have a gold faction mentor who taught me [element] Dragon Syle."

> Violet Bier of Sorrows, on the other hand was a common style in the
> First Age, back when First Age Solars were running around and "competent
> martial artist" meant "I have a hundred different styles under my belt."

--
Elizabeth D. Brooks | kali.magdalene@comcast.net | US2002021724
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
AeonAdventure | "Dobby likes us!" -- Smeagol
-- http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/view/6856
 
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Julie d'Aubigny wrote:

> The one I'm using at the moment (although not playing, just messing
> around):

> "I have a gold faction mentor who taught me [element] Dragon Syle."

That's a good one, but it often includes "I have a gold faction mentor
who's manipulating the hell out of me." Sometimes one just doesn't want
that baggage, you know?
--
Stephenls
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"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike
 
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Julie d'Aubigny wrote:

> Stephenls wrote:
>
>>Solars can't spontaneously develop Elemental Dragon styles because those
>>styles were invented after the Usurpation, so they can't call un
>>previous life knowledge. Even with that limitation, it's really
>>trivially easy to put together a background that lets a Solar develop
>>them. ("I was one of the un-captured Essences, and at one point I was
>>taught elemental dragon kung fu by a really traitorous Sidereal. It
>>took 50 immaculates to bring that incarnation down, and I went down in
>>the early Realm history as one of the worst Anathema ever to show up.")
>
> The one I'm using at the moment (although not playing, just messing
> around):
>
> "I have a gold faction mentor who taught me [element] Dragon Syle."

The Five Glorious Dragon Methods, secret though they may be, are still
just Celestial Martial Arts. I would not have a problem with any
Celestial player who had an interesting story justification for knowing
one of them.
--
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delusional foreign delinquents."
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Richard Clayton wrote:
>
> The Five Glorious Dragon Methods, secret though they may be, are still
> just Celestial Martial Arts. I would not have a problem with any
> Celestial player who had an interesting story justification for knowing
> one of them.

One of the first PCs in my game knew Earth Dragon style on the basis
that he was an Immaculate Monk before he Exalted.

--
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Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
AeonAdventure | "Dobby likes us!" -- Smeagol
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> "I have a gold faction mentor who taught me [element] Dragon Syle."

Seems reasonable. My idea was initially "I have a Gold Faction Mentor who
taught me Violet Bier of Sorrows style."


> > Violet Bier of Sorrows, on the other hand was a common style in the
> > First Age, back when First Age Solars were running around and "competent
> > martial artist" meant "I have a hundred different styles under my belt."

VBS seems like it can combine nicely with Solar Melee charms.

CB -aka-*not* the Exalted Kombat rules guru that James Stein is :)
 
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Groovelord wrote:
>
> > "I have a gold faction mentor who taught me [element] Dragon Syle."
>
> Seems reasonable. My idea was initially "I have a Gold Faction Mentor who
> taught me Violet Bier of Sorrows style."

It's an extreme example, in both cases.

> > > Violet Bier of Sorrows, on the other hand was a common style in the
> > > First Age, back when First Age Solars were running around and "competent
> > > martial artist" meant "I have a hundred different styles under my belt."
>
> VBS seems like it can combine nicely with Solar Melee charms.

Of course...the defensive charms, as well as the "summon my weapon to
me" charms.

--
Elizabeth D. Brooks | kali.magdalene@comcast.net | US2002021724
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
AeonAdventure | "Dobby likes us!" -- Smeagol
-- http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/view/6856
 
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On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:38:32 GMT, James Stein
<JamesSpamtein@si.rr.com> wrote:

>And, yeah, I saw the line about "Common to them (animal styles among
>anathema)", but *everything* is common to Solars, given the past life
>thing. I just thought I should make that logic-connection clear, before
>people jump on me by quoting that line.

well. i'd cast just another doubt. what if being able to develop
spontaneously charms depends more on supernatural *insight* than
memory?
if it's memory, a dragon blooded should not be able to spontaneously
develop any charm at all...
if it's insight, that's why only solar-aspected MA are spontaneously
available to solars...
--
i hope she fries
i'm free if that bitch dies...
....i'd better help her out...
Domon
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Domon wrote:

> On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:38:32 GMT, James Stein
> <JamesSpamtein@si.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>>And, yeah, I saw the line about "Common to them (animal styles among
>>anathema)", but *everything* is common to Solars, given the past life
>>thing. I just thought I should make that logic-connection clear, before
>>people jump on me by quoting that line.
>
>
> well. i'd cast just another doubt. what if being able to develop
> spontaneously charms depends more on supernatural *insight* than
> memory?
> if it's memory, a dragon blooded should not be able to spontaneously
> develop any charm at all...
> if it's insight, that's why only solar-aspected MA are spontaneously
> available to solars...

There is no such thing as "Solar-Aspected Martial Arts." Supernatural
Martial Arts come in three flavors: Terrestrial, Celestial, and
Sidereal. Any Exalt can easily learn MA Charms of his own Circle or
lower. You can learn one Circle "up" with a skilled mentor and lots of
time and effort. (Even mortals can learn Terrestrial Martial Arts, given
sufficiently intense training.) Terrestrial Exalted cannot learn
Sidereal Martial Arts EVER; nor can mortals learn Celestial Circle.
--
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"I wasn't aware the Tokyo police employed uneducated, paranoid,
delusional foreign delinquents."
"In my case, they made an exception."
-- MegaTokyo
 
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On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:48:31 -0700, Stephenls <stephenls@shaw.ca>
wrote:

>> "I have a gold faction mentor who taught me [element] Dragon Syle."
>
>That's a good one, but it often includes "I have a gold faction mentor
>who's manipulating the hell out of me." Sometimes one just doesn't want
>that baggage, you know?

just a pair of socialize and 3 investigation charms can prevent any
manipulator from manipulating you :D
--
i hope she fries
i'm free if that bitch dies...
....i'd better help her out...
Domon
per rispondermi, togli il FILTRO!
 
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Domon wrote:

> On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:48:31 -0700, Stephenls <stephenls@shaw.ca>
> wrote:
>
>
>>>"I have a gold faction mentor who taught me [element] Dragon Syle."
>>
>>That's a good one, but it often includes "I have a gold faction mentor
>>who's manipulating the hell out of me." Sometimes one just doesn't want
>>that baggage, you know?
>
> just a pair of socialize and 3 investigation charms can prevent any
> manipulator from manipulating you :D

Unless, of course, that manipulator has a higher Essence and Charms of
his own which counter yours. Plus numerous false identities, an
extensive support network in Heaven, scads of First Age lore, and
powerful astrological whammies to help pull your character into line.
--
[The address listed is a spam trap. To reply, take off every zig.]

"I wasn't aware the Tokyo police employed uneducated, paranoid,
delusional foreign delinquents."
"In my case, they made an exception."
-- MegaTokyo
 
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Domon wrote:

> On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:38:32 GMT, James Stein
> <JamesSpamtein@si.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >And, yeah, I saw the line about "Common to them (animal styles among
> >anathema)", but *everything* is common to Solars, given the past life
> >thing. I just thought I should make that logic-connection clear, before
> >people jump on me by quoting that line.
>
> well. i'd cast just another doubt. what if being able to develop
> spontaneously charms depends more on supernatural *insight* than
> memory?

Because the two are mechanically equivalent when the book says "You can
develop any charm spontaneously." Flavor text no longer matters.

> if it's memory, a dragon blooded should not be able to spontaneously
> develop any charm at all...

Why would you assume that a Dragon-Blooded would function the same way a
Celestial Exalt would? They're entirely different, and we know that.
Apples, Oranges, Dragon Testicles, I don't know what you're comparing.

> if it's insight, that's why only solar-aspected MA are spontaneously
> available to solars...
 
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Il Wed, 21 Apr 2004 13:51:25 GMT, James Stein
<JamesSpamtein@si.rr.com> ha scritto:

>> >And, yeah, I saw the line about "Common to them (animal styles among
>> >anathema)", but *everything* is common to Solars, given the past life
>> >thing. I just thought I should make that logic-connection clear, before
>> >people jump on me by quoting that line.
>>
>> well. i'd cast just another doubt. what if being able to develop
>> spontaneously charms depends more on supernatural *insight* than
>> memory?
>
>Because the two are mechanically equivalent when the book says "You can
>develop any charm spontaneously." Flavor text no longer matters.

exalted is not a generic ruleset for fantasy adventuring. is a
storytelling game with interwowed rules and setting.
hence flavor text do count, maybe more than rules text. IMO.
moreover, i do see two possible interpretations of the same phrase,
and even being lean on accepting yours (wich came to my attention just
yesterday) i cannot discard the other completely

>> if it's memory, a dragon blooded should not be able to spontaneously
>> develop any charm at all...
>
>Why would you assume that a Dragon-Blooded would function the same way a
>Celestial Exalt would? They're entirely different, and we know that.
>Apples, Oranges, Dragon Testicles, I don't know what you're comparing.

well. you are right. they are different in the fact that they don't
have old incarnation memories, yet they can develop charms and expect
their descendands to develop the same charm spontaneously. this is why
a say that maybe spontaneous charm knowledge is more a matter of
insight than memory. just consider this: first age solars had lots of
sorcery spells and at least some had sidereal level MA. how come that
sorceries and sid MA connot be developed spontaneously?
--
i hope she fries
i'm free if that bitch dies...
....i'd better help her out...
Domon
per rispondermi, togli il FILTRO!
 
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