[Exalted] Silly question about Terrestrial "group Charms".

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Some of the Terrestrial Charms that can affect groups of allies mention that
they affect the Dragon-Blooded himself, while others don't say anything
either way. Is this a deliberate omission, or is it just assumed that
unless it explicitly states otherwise, a Terrestrial can include himself as
one of the affected "allies"? This question actually came up with reference
to Deadly Wildfire Legion the other day - one of my players commented that
it's odd that a Dragon-Blooded can double the Melee of the guy standing next
to him for the whole scene, but can't do the same thing for himself, and
upon reflection, I can see his point.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

- David Prokopetz.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

David Prokopetz wrote:

> Some of the Terrestrial Charms that can affect groups of allies mention that
> they affect the Dragon-Blooded himself, while others don't say anything
> either way. Is this a deliberate omission, or is it just assumed that
> unless it explicitly states otherwise, a Terrestrial can include himself as
> one of the affected "allies"? This question actually came up with reference
> to Deadly Wildfire Legion the other day - one of my players commented that
> it's odd that a Dragon-Blooded can double the Melee of the guy standing next
> to him for the whole scene, but can't do the same thing for himself, and
> upon reflection, I can see his point.

> Any thoughts?

"Ally" means "Other people." Group charms are supposed to only be
useful in groups -- if you want to benefit from Deadly Wildfire Legion,
teach it to one of your friends and have him use it while you're using it.

As usual, Domon is wrong.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Stephenls" <stephenls@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:c7b1km$1qt3a$1@ID-117331.news.uni-berlin.de...
> David Prokopetz wrote:
>
> > Some of the Terrestrial Charms that can affect groups of allies mention
that
> > they affect the Dragon-Blooded himself, while others don't say anything
> > either way. Is this a deliberate omission, or is it just assumed that
> > unless it explicitly states otherwise, a Terrestrial can include himself
as
> > one of the affected "allies"? This question actually came up with
reference
> > to Deadly Wildfire Legion the other day - one of my players commented
that
> > it's odd that a Dragon-Blooded can double the Melee of the guy standing
next
> > to him for the whole scene, but can't do the same thing for himself, and
> > upon reflection, I can see his point.
>
> > Any thoughts?
>
> "Ally" means "Other people." Group charms are supposed to only be
> useful in groups -- if you want to benefit from Deadly Wildfire Legion,
> teach it to one of your friends and have him use it while you're using it.

Hmmm... that's probably the sensible reading. I suppose the confusion
arises from the fact that in both the Exalted core book, and in other books
in which major Terrestrial foes appear (e.g., Time of Tumult), a great deal
is said of Terrestrial Charms that can increase dice pools for an entire
scene and allow failed attacks and defenses to be re-rolled, but there isn't
a single, solitary Charm that does either of these things in the
Dragon-Blooded hardback.

- David Prokopetz.

 

[DoMon]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Il Mon, 3 May 2004 12:09:58 -0600, "David Prokopetz"
<sirbob@penguinking.com> ha scritto:

>Some of the Terrestrial Charms that can affect groups of allies mention that
>they affect the Dragon-Blooded himself, while others don't say anything
>either way. Is this a deliberate omission, or is it just assumed that
>unless it explicitly states otherwise, a Terrestrial can include himself as
>one of the affected "allies"?

i'd say he absolutely can
--
i hope she fries
i'm free if that bitch dies...
....i'd better help her out...
Domon
per rispondermi, togli il FILTRO!

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

David Prokopetz wrote:

> Hmmm... that's probably the sensible reading. I suppose the confusion
> arises from the fact that in both the Exalted core book, and in other books
> in which major Terrestrial foes appear (e.g., Time of Tumult), a great deal
> is said of Terrestrial Charms that can increase dice pools for an entire
> scene and allow failed attacks and defenses to be re-rolled, but there isn't
> a single, solitary Charm that does either of these things in the
> Dragon-Blooded hardback.

You're not quite right there -- Archery has a "re-roll a failed attack"
Charm.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

 

[DoMon]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Il Wed, 05 May 2004 08:35:58 -0700, Stephenls <stephenls@shaw.ca> ha
scritto:

>> Any thoughts?
>
>"Ally" means "Other people." Group charms are supposed to only be
>useful in groups -- if you want to benefit from Deadly Wildfire Legion,
>teach it to one of your friends and have him use it while you're using it.
>
>As usual, Domon is wrong.

and you have in-dept explanation from the authors proving it, right?
--
i hope she fries
i'm free if that bitch dies...
....i'd better help her out...
Domon
per rispondermi, togli il FILTRO!

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Domon wrote:

> well, you are pleasant, as usual.
> besides telling me something everyone knows, can you even tell me
> something interesting, for once?

Maybe if you can explain why we should bother.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Stephenls" <stephenls@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:c7bl10$22pok$1@ID-117331.news.uni-berlin.de...
> David Prokopetz wrote:
>
> > Hmmm... that's probably the sensible reading. I suppose the confusion
> > arises from the fact that in both the Exalted core book, and in other
books
> > in which major Terrestrial foes appear (e.g., Time of Tumult), a great
deal
> > is said of Terrestrial Charms that can increase dice pools for an entire
> > scene and allow failed attacks and defenses to be re-rolled, but there
isn't
> > a single, solitary Charm that does either of these things in the
> > Dragon-Blooded hardback.
>
> You're not quite right there -- Archery has a "re-roll a failed attack"
> Charm.

Oh, goody, a precedent. I wonder if similar Charms were left off for
Abilities for which they were previously mentioned (Dodge, Melee, Presence,
etc.) for a particular reason?

- David Prokopetz.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

David Prokopetz wrote:

> Oh, goody, a precedent. I wonder if similar Charms were left off for
> Abilities for which they were previously mentioned (Dodge, Melee, Presence,
> etc.) for a particular reason?

I believe it's because that sort of Charm sounds good in theory, but in
practice takes a long time to roll and slows combat down. If you like,
you could probably add similar charms to the other combat abilities with
no real balance issues.

Well, except MA, but that's 'cause it's universal and all.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Stephenls" <stephenls@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:c7c3iu$230t4$1@ID-117331.news.uni-berlin.de...
> David Prokopetz wrote:
>
> > Oh, goody, a precedent. I wonder if similar Charms were left off for
> > Abilities for which they were previously mentioned (Dodge, Melee,
Presence,
> > etc.) for a particular reason?
>
> I believe it's because that sort of Charm sounds good in theory, but in
> practice takes a long time to roll and slows combat down.

They could hardly slow combat down any more than having to scramble for
twenty-five or thirty dice - and then count the successes on them - every
time the pumped up melee-monster takes a swing at someone, methinks.

(It's not even tough to arrive at the above, either; a starting
combat-optimised Terrestrial with a decent artifact and Stoking Bonfire
Style can manage it for a few rounds, at least. For something even sicker,
try a twinked-out Solar with an orichalcum short daiklave and Violet Bier of
Sorrows. We're talking 27 dice on every single attack with no incremental
cost - and again, a starting character can do it at the cost of a couple
dots in Artifact, a couple Bonus Points, and two Charms.)

- David Prokopetz.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

David Prokopetz wrote:

> They could hardly slow combat down any more than having to scramble for
> twenty-five or thirty dice - and then count the successes on them - every
> time the pumped up melee-monster takes a swing at someone, methinks.

You miss the point.

A combat-oriented Dragon-Blooded will be throwing twenty-five or thirty
dice for attack -- and then re-rolling, if he doesn't like the result.
If you thought scrambling for twenty-five or thirty dice and then
counting the successes takes time when it's done once, try doing it twice.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Stephenls" <stephenls@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:c7cbmq$288ko$1@ID-117331.news.uni-berlin.de...
> David Prokopetz wrote:
>
> > They could hardly slow combat down any more than having to scramble for
> > twenty-five or thirty dice - and then count the successes on them -
every
> > time the pumped up melee-monster takes a swing at someone, methinks.
>
> You miss the point.
>
> A combat-oriented Dragon-Blooded will be throwing twenty-five or thirty
> dice for attack -- and then re-rolling, if he doesn't like the result.
> If you thought scrambling for twenty-five or thirty dice and then
> counting the successes takes time when it's done once, try doing it twice.

Better forbid splitting actions then, eh?

(Besides, the more dice you're rolling, the less attractive reroll-type
Charms become, since the results will deviate from the average less and
less. If I roll twenty-four dice and score a run-of-the-mill twelve
successes, am I really going to reroll, knowing that I've got 50/50 odds of
doing worse the second time around?)

- David Prokopetz.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

David Prokopetz wrote:

> Better forbid splitting actions then, eh?

> (Besides, the more dice you're rolling, the less attractive reroll-type
> Charms become, since the results will deviate from the average less and
> less. If I roll twenty-four dice and score a run-of-the-mill twelve
> successes, am I really going to reroll, knowing that I've got 50/50 odds of
> doing worse the second time around?)

No, but if you roll twenty-four dice and botch, it's reroll time, isn't it?

More seriously, I see your point.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Grant Anderson wrote:

> It sounds a bit like the Solars got manipulated and deceived by the
> Sidereals at some point, doesn't it?

Bah. That depends on your definition of "manipulate."

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Stephenls" <stephenls@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:c7cji6$2a153$2@ID-117331.news.uni-berlin.de...
> David Prokopetz wrote:
>
> > Better forbid splitting actions then, eh?
>
> > (Besides, the more dice you're rolling, the less attractive reroll-type
> > Charms become, since the results will deviate from the average less and
> > less. If I roll twenty-four dice and score a run-of-the-mill twelve
> > successes, am I really going to reroll, knowing that I've got 50/50 odds
of
> > doing worse the second time around?)
>
> No, but if you roll twenty-four dice and botch, it's reroll time, isn't
it?

Well, the odds of scoring zero successes on twenty-four dice are in the
neighbourhood of two hundred and eleven thousand to one against, so I
wouldn't count on it coming up any time soon. A botch is even less likely,
since many of the failing rolls won't actually contain any ones, but I
couldn't give you the numbers - I've only got fifteen digits of precision,
and I can't be arsed to dig up a better compiler.

> More seriously, I see your point.

Prior to getting the Dragon-Blooded hardback, I prefered to think of it in
terms of "reroll Charms are the Terrestrial equivalent of extra attacks and
reflexive full-dice defenses" - of which I notice that DBs still have
precious few. You get the same amount of extra rolling either way; the DBs
just tend to die faster.

(As opposed to Solars, who pull out the reflexive full-dice defenses *in
response* to extra attacks, and before you know it you've got great
thundering handfuls of dice flying willy-nilly and it's taking two minutes
to resolve a single exchange between two characters.)

- Sir Bob.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

David Prokopetz wrote:

> "Stephenls" <stephenls@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:c7c3iu$230t4$1@ID-117331.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > David Prokopetz wrote:
> >
> > > Oh, goody, a precedent. I wonder if similar Charms were left off for
> > > Abilities for which they were previously mentioned (Dodge, Melee,
> Presence,
> > > etc.) for a particular reason?
> >
> > I believe it's because that sort of Charm sounds good in theory, but in
> > practice takes a long time to roll and slows combat down.
>
> They could hardly slow combat down any more than having to scramble for
> twenty-five or thirty dice - and then count the successes on them - every
> time the pumped up melee-monster takes a swing at someone, methinks.
>
> (It's not even tough to arrive at the above, either; a starting
> combat-optimised Terrestrial with a decent artifact and Stoking Bonfire
> Style can manage it for a few rounds, at least. For something even sicker,
> try a twinked-out Solar with an orichalcum short daiklave and Violet Bier of
> Sorrows. We're talking 27 dice on every single attack with no incremental
> cost - and again, a starting character can do it at the cost of a couple
> dots in Artifact, a couple Bonus Points, and two Charms.)

27 dice is not impressive. A non-twinked-out Solar thrower can chuck
upwards of 30 without really trying.

Oh, er, that's beside the point. Yeah, it does slow down combat. I mean,
assuming you use it with any sort of regularity.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"James Stein" <JamesSpamtein@si.rr.com> wrote in message
news:51hmc.58953$Nn4.13260675@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> David Prokopetz wrote:
>
> > "Stephenls" <stephenls@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> > news:c7c3iu$230t4$1@ID-117331.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > David Prokopetz wrote:
> > >
> > > > Oh, goody, a precedent. I wonder if similar Charms were left off
for
> > > > Abilities for which they were previously mentioned (Dodge, Melee,
> > Presence,
> > > > etc.) for a particular reason?
> > >
> > > I believe it's because that sort of Charm sounds good in theory, but
in
> > > practice takes a long time to roll and slows combat down.
> >
> > They could hardly slow combat down any more than having to scramble for
> > twenty-five or thirty dice - and then count the successes on them -
every
> > time the pumped up melee-monster takes a swing at someone, methinks.
> >
> > (It's not even tough to arrive at the above, either; a starting
> > combat-optimised Terrestrial with a decent artifact and Stoking Bonfire
> > Style can manage it for a few rounds, at least. For something even
sicker,
> > try a twinked-out Solar with an orichalcum short daiklave and Violet
Bier of
> > Sorrows. We're talking 27 dice on every single attack with no
incremental
> > cost - and again, a starting character can do it at the cost of a couple
> > dots in Artifact, a couple Bonus Points, and two Charms.)
>
> 27 dice is not impressive. A non-twinked-out Solar thrower can chuck
> upwards of 30 without really trying.

Throw Charms are... "special", I think the polite term is.

> Oh, er, that's beside the point. Yeah, it does slow down combat. I mean,
> assuming you use it with any sort of regularity.

Well, as written in the Exalted core book, those reroll Charms only give you
*one* reroll per attack - that's not onerous, especially when you consider
that equivalent Solars will be buying extra attacks and free parries for the
same cost in motes. Besides, anyone with even a basic understanding of
probability will be using them on less than half of all the attacks he makes
anyway.

- David Prokopetz.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"James Stein" <JamesSpamtein@si.rr.com> wrote in message
news:jmhmc.38103$mX.13386262@twister.nyc.rr.com...

<snip>

> What makes you think that the Dragon-Blooded will not be purchasing
> extra attacks and free parries as well, in addition to these rerolls?

Because with a few notable exceptions, the Dragon-Blooded don't *have* extra
attack and free defense charms, and when they do, they tend to cost
Willpower, putting a serious cap on their utility?

- David Prokopetz.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"James Stein"
> Grant Anderson wrote:

> > It sounds a bit like the Solars got manipulated and deceived by the
> > Sidereals at some point, doesn't it?

> Bah. That depends on your definition of "manipulate."

Well, are you going to use the dictionary.com definiton, or are you using
the definition from dictionary.com?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Shane Graves wrote:

> "James Stein"
> > Grant Anderson wrote:
>
> > > It sounds a bit like the Solars got manipulated and deceived by the
> > > Sidereals at some point, doesn't it?
>
> > Bah. That depends on your definition of "manipulate."
>
> Well, are you going to use the dictionary.com definiton, or are you using
> the definition from dictionary.com?

I was going to go with the definition from dictionary.domon.it.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

David Prokopetz wrote:
> "Stephenls" <stephenls@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:c7b1km$1qt3a$1@ID-117331.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
>>David Prokopetz wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Some of the Terrestrial Charms that can affect groups of allies mention
>
> that
>
>>>they affect the Dragon-Blooded himself, while others don't say anything
>>>either way. Is this a deliberate omission, or is it just assumed that
>>>unless it explicitly states otherwise, a Terrestrial can include himself
>
> as
>
>>>one of the affected "allies"? This question actually came up with
>
> reference
>
>>>to Deadly Wildfire Legion the other day - one of my players commented
>
> that
>
>>>it's odd that a Dragon-Blooded can double the Melee of the guy standing
>
> next
>
>>>to him for the whole scene, but can't do the same thing for himself, and
>>>upon reflection, I can see his point.
>>
>>>Any thoughts?
>>
>>"Ally" means "Other people." Group charms are supposed to only be
>>useful in groups -- if you want to benefit from Deadly Wildfire Legion,
>>teach it to one of your friends and have him use it while you're using it.
>
>
> Hmmm... that's probably the sensible reading. I suppose the confusion
> arises from the fact that in both the Exalted core book, and in other books
> in which major Terrestrial foes appear (e.g., Time of Tumult), a great deal
> is said of Terrestrial Charms that can increase dice pools for an entire
> scene and allow failed attacks and defenses to be re-rolled, but there isn't
> a single, solitary Charm that does either of these things in the
> Dragon-Blooded hardback.
>
> - David Prokopetz.
>
>

Oddly enough, I believe Mail & Steel makes that interpretation more
clear by mentioning that group buffs that do not specifically include
the Unit's commander (caster of the Charm) do not affect him. It speaks
specifically of Valor, but it's a good precedent to go off of. Page 218
of the Player's Guide.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"David Prokopetz" <sirbob@penguinking.com> wrote in message news:<c7coep$293uo$1@ID-226048.news.uni-berlin.de>...
More seriously, I see your point.

> (As opposed to Solars, who pull out the reflexive full-dice defenses *in
> response* to extra attacks, and before you know it you've got great
> thundering handfuls of dice flying willy-nilly and it's taking two minutes
> to resolve a single exchange between two characters.)

Well, legend and myth talk about battles and single combat that went
on for hours, or even sunup to sundown. Y'all should be THANKING
White Wolf, for giving the players the opportunity to simulate that
experience.
;')

-Eric Tolle

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Eric Tolle" <schaduw@silcom.com> wrote in message
news:d07ba801.0405060816.530a610f@posting.google.com...
> "David Prokopetz" <sirbob@penguinking.com> wrote in message
news:<c7coep$293uo$1@ID-226048.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> More seriously, I see your point.
>
> > (As opposed to Solars, who pull out the reflexive full-dice defenses *in
> > response* to extra attacks, and before you know it you've got great
> > thundering handfuls of dice flying willy-nilly and it's taking two
minutes
> > to resolve a single exchange between two characters.)
>
> Well, legend and myth talk about battles and single combat that went
> on for hours, or even sunup to sundown. Y'all should be THANKING
> White Wolf, for giving the players the opportunity to simulate that
> experience.
> ;')

At no point did I say it's a *bad* thing. =P

- Sir Bob.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

David Prokopetz wrote:

> "James Stein" <JamesSpamtein@si.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:jmhmc.38103$mX.13386262@twister.nyc.rr.com...
>
> <snip>
>
> > What makes you think that the Dragon-Blooded will not be purchasing
> > extra attacks and free parries as well, in addition to these rerolls?
>
> Because with a few notable exceptions, the Dragon-Blooded don't *have* extra
> attack and free defense charms, and when they do, they tend to cost
> Willpower, putting a serious cap on their utility?

They're still there, though. I mean, seriously - if you're running a DB
game, and you've got the only PC type in all of Creation with access to
a hojillion manses, how long do you think it's going to be until they're
all running around with one hearthstone or another that grants them
extra actions and/or free defenses?

Dear god, I know I'd have Windhands Gemstones and Gems of Free Movement
(isn't that the right name, for the one that gives an extra action each
round?) in a heartbeat.