DriveThruRPG

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

As many people will no doubt know by know, many RPG publishers (including
Malhavoc Press and White Wolf) are selling their PDFs exclusively through
www.drivethrurpg.com these days, which uses Adobe Reader 6 and Digital Rights
Management in an attempt to make piracy more difficult.

Regardless of the pros and cons of such a system, which I imagine will provoke
much discussion in the rest of the thread, it seems worth mentioning that
DriveThruRPG are offering a free and legal download of the Exalted core
hardback.

Even I, who hate ze anime, have downloaded it, because the system *is* cool.

--
Christopher Adams
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nath Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?

You're not a bad person. You're a terrific person. You're my favorite person.
But every once in a while you just can be a real wise and beautiful woman.
- Bill

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

James Stein wrote:

> I can only assume this means the Exalted Revised hardback is on its way.

This soon after the launch of WoD 2?

I doubt it. But maybe. We don't know what the second hardcover for
next year will be, after all...
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Christopher Adams wrote:
> As many people will no doubt know by know, many RPG publishers (including
> Malhavoc Press and White Wolf) are selling their PDFs exclusively through
> www.drivethrurpg.com these days, which uses Adobe Reader 6 and Digital Rights
> Management in an attempt to make piracy more difficult.
>
> Regardless of the pros and cons of such a system, which I imagine will provoke
> much discussion in the rest of the thread, it seems worth mentioning that
> DriveThruRPG are offering a free and legal download of the Exalted core
> hardback.
>
> Even I, who hate ze anime, have downloaded it, because the system *is* cool.
>


Where do you see this? I'm checking their site and don't see any free
e-books.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

MagsTheAxe wrote:

> Where do you see this? I'm checking their site and don't see any free
> e-books.

Front page. Wait for the whole thing to load and then scroll down.
Then click on the "Download Exalted for free!" link just below the
"Download Narrog the Earth Serpent for free!" link, which is itself just
below the "Download Gehenna for $14.99!" link.

You'll have to make an account and log in, though.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Stephenls" <stephenls@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:2iko40Fnn00mU2@uni-berlin.de...
> James Stein wrote:
>
> > I can only assume this means the Exalted Revised hardback is on its way.
>
> This soon after the launch of WoD 2?

I can't really think of many reasons to start giving out the corebook for
free, unless they plan on replacing it with something else.

Ars Magica 4th was made a free PDF in accompaniment to the release of 5th,
after all, IIRC.

> I doubt it. But maybe. We don't know what the second hardcover for
> next year will be, after all...

Indeed.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"James Stein"
> "Stephenls"
> > James Stein wrote:

> > > I can only assume this means the Exalted Revised hardback is on its
way.

> > This soon after the launch of WoD 2?

> I can't really think of many reasons to start giving out the corebook for
> free, unless they plan on replacing it with something else.

> Ars Magica 4th was made a free PDF in accompaniment to the release of 5th,
> after all, IIRC.

I'm thinking "Cause it's a brilliant way to get people to open up an
account".

Remember one of the reasons Metallica was pissed at Napster was because
after like, five years, the black album was still on the top 100 record
sales. The comment made was "Who went out and bought the black album last
week?"

Remove it from Lars Ulrich's annoying Quentin Tarintino voice and apply it
to reality: who went out and BOUGHT the Exalted core book last week? Who's
gonna get it this week? Why not give it away for free for a while?

The disgusting thing is that I can chop it apart with PDF Factory Pro. Now,
on my laptop, I'm gonna have the charms and all reference rules I'd ever
need.

I was planning on doing this anyway. This just makes it easier on me.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Stephenls wrote:
>
> James Stein wrote:
>
> > I can only assume this means the Exalted Revised hardback is on its way.
>
> This soon after the launch of WoD 2?
>
> I doubt it. But maybe. We don't know what the second hardcover for
> next year will be, after all...

Exalted: The Quantum.

Now you know where Divis Mal went.

--
Elizabeth D. Brooks | kali.magdalene@comcast.net | US2002021724
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
AeonAdventure | "Dobby likes us!" -- Smeagol
-- http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/view/6856

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Julie d'Aubigny" <kali.magdalene@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:40C61FB9.8AD820F@comcast.net...
> Stephenls wrote:
> >
> > James Stein wrote:
> >
> > > I can only assume this means the Exalted Revised hardback is on its
way.
> >
> > This soon after the launch of WoD 2?
> >
> > I doubt it. But maybe. We don't know what the second hardcover for
> > next year will be, after all...
>
> Exalted: The Quantum.
>
> Now you know where Divis Mal went.

Yes please!

Cheers,
Grant

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 22:58:44 GMT, "Christopher Adams"
<mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote:
>Regardless of the pros and cons of such a system, which I imagine will provoke
>much discussion in the rest of the thread, it seems worth mentioning that

Not so much discussion, strangely.

The idea is cool, the execution is flawed.

And it's not only the DRM thing.

The Dark Age : Fae book on amazon is cheaper than the Dark Age
: Fae e-book on drivethrurpg , for example. Paper cheaper than bits...

I don't know why nobody try to learn from how Baen is doing
(succesfully) e-books. It's not exactly the same thing, sure, but
there are lessons to get from their experiences.

Guillaume

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Guillaume JAY wrote:
> I don't know why nobody try to learn from how Baen is doing
> (succesfully) e-books. It's not exactly the same thing, sure, but
> there are lessons to get from their experiences.

IMO, the Baen model would work better with RPG books than it does with
novels.

--
J. H. Frank

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Christopher Adams wrote:
> As many people will no doubt know by know, many RPG publishers (including
> Malhavoc Press and White Wolf) are selling their PDFs exclusively through
> www.drivethrurpg.com these days, which uses Adobe Reader 6 and Digital Rights
> Management in an attempt to make piracy more difficult.

I really like hardcopy books for reading wherever I want from real
paper. Because I can't handle my laptop as hard as I do my books. So
maybe when one day I own a _really_ hardy tablet pc with near unlimited
battery, I might not need paper anymore...
I really like pdfs for searching, having all my books with me when
gaming and copy'n'pasting the most important parts instead of scanning
and OCRing them.

I buy a lot of hardcopy books, but I won't pay much for a pdf of a book
I already own. And also I could have DA:Fae as a pdf by now, I rather
pay the same money to amazon and wait till they ship it over the ocean.

Now, what I'd like to see would be a coupon inserted in every book I buy
to get the pdf from DTRPG for cheap. I don't want to have to pay 75% of
the hardcopy price just to have the pdf version of a book I already own.
If I could get it for << 5$, I'd buy the pdf versions of all my books.

Daniel
--

my homepage : http://hd42.de

'Life is wasted on the living' - Zaphod Beeblebrox the Fourth

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 10:53:41 -0400, "J. H. Frank"
<frankjoh@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:

>Guillaume JAY wrote:
>> I don't know why nobody try to learn from how Baen is doing
>> (succesfully) e-books. It's not exactly the same thing, sure, but
>> there are lessons to get from their experiences.
>
>IMO, the Baen model would work better with RPG books than it does with
>novels.

I believe the same thing.

But it seems we're alone in this

Guillaume

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

On 11 Jun 2004 19:50:00 -0700, "NightRain" <groups@cyron.id.au> wrote:
>What exactly is the "Baen model"

Read http://www.baen.com/library

And the prime palavers, especially the #6, for real number on how
giving free books affects sales..

In short, and in my words, Baen model/philosophy :
- unprotected ebooks, available in five formats.
- Expansion of size ot the audience, by letting people read books for
free (free ebook, but also in public library) is good, and offsets the
losses due to piracy. Especially for first book in a serie.
- People prefer to get something easily for cheap rather than getting
the same thing for free, but tediously. ((and cheap and high quality
is better than free and low quality)
- including with hardcovers a cdrom full of e-books, and incitate
people to copy and distribute the cdrom
http://www.bonham.net.nz/SF/Baen/CD_Contents_list/Baen_CD_Contents.htm
-right pricing. AFAIU, the price is 15$ for six e-books. All these
abooks are published as real books at the same time (paperback or
hardback)


Guillaume

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Guillaume JAY wrote:
>
> The idea is cool, the execution is flawed.
>
> And it's not only the DRM thing.
>
> The Dark Age : Fae book on amazon is cheaper than the Dark Age
>> Fae e-book on drivethrurpg , for example. Paper cheaper than bits...

Yes, that strikes me as less than intelligent.

--
Christopher Adams
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nath Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?

You're not a bad person. You're a terrific person. You're my favorite person.
But every once in a while you just can be a real wise and beautiful woman.
- Bill

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Christopher Adams wrote:

> Guillaume JAY wrote:
>
>>The idea is cool, the execution is flawed.
>>
>>And it's not only the DRM thing.
>>
>>The Dark Age : Fae book on amazon is cheaper than the Dark Age
>>
>>>Fae e-book on drivethrurpg , for example. Paper cheaper than bits...
>
>
> Yes, that strikes me as less than intelligent.
>

Then again, Amazon has classically sold White Wolf books for less than
the price White Wolf has set for them. Therefor the price on
DriveThruRPG (which is apparently set by White Wolf, according to DTR's
site) is what was decided on by the publisher as a proper pricing for an
electronic version of the book, whereas Amazon has ignored the
publisher's recommended pricing and offered a lower one. Although White
Wolf profits from the sale of both, you might assume that they make more
money off the sale of Ebooks simply because they don't have to net the
cost due to costs of printing and shipping (to warehouses, etc), whereas
Amazon makes little profit off the sale of one book by offering it at a
discounted price after the wholesale cost of the book, warehouse
storage, and if you purchase over $25 on their site, possibly the cost
of shipping.

In other words: if you purchase the book from Amazon at the cheaper
price White Wolf probably doesn't care as much simply because they still
get paid the same amount as they would by any other book dealer, and
Amazon gets screwed on the deal they give, and White Wolf doesn't care
if you get it in Ebook format because they don't have to pay the costs
of printing it, so they still make money. White Wolf just wants us to
get the book if we want it and have fun with the game, as long as we get
the book LEGALLY.


smg

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Stephen G. wrote:
> Christopher Adams wrote:
>> Guillaume JAY wrote:
>
>>>> Fae e-book on drivethrurpg , for example. Paper cheaper than bits...
>>
>> Yes, that strikes me as less than intelligent.
>
> Then again, Amazon has classically sold White Wolf books for less than
> the price White Wolf has set for them.

Learn about economies of scale, yes? Amazon primarily operates through that
force.

Barring some bizarre anomaly, White Wolf should get more profits from PDFs sold
at the same price as printed books because their costs are lower, therefore
their profit on each sale constitutes a greater percentage of the price.

Sword and Sorcery publishes Malhavoc Press books, of which Monte has always sold
PDF copies for less than the print versions of his books. His experience ought
to demonstrate that cheaper PDFs work; someone at White Wolf has obviously
decided not to risk it.

--
Christopher Adams
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nath Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?

You're not a bad person. You're a terrific person. You're my favorite person.
But every once in a while you just can be a real wise and beautiful woman.
- Bill

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 05:41:38 -0500, "Stephen G."
<jinxdjester@charter.net> wrote:

>In other words: if you purchase the book from Amazon at the cheaper
>price White Wolf probably doesn't care as much simply because they still
>get paid the same amount as they would by any other book dealer, and
>Amazon gets screwed on the deal they give, and White Wolf doesn't care
>if you get it in Ebook format because they don't have to pay the costs
>of printing it, so they still make money. White Wolf just wants us to
>get the book if we want it and have fun with the game, as long as we get
>the book LEGALLY.

The stupid point in doing this is that they have just ensured
but most people will only buy one of the two. With a cheaper price on
the e-book, people could have buy both : one for ease of reading, and
one for ease of searching.

Book and ebooks should be complimentary, not opposed.
At least for now.

Guillaume

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Guillaume JAY <gjay_diespammer-die@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> <jinxdjester@charter.net> wrote:

> >In other words: if you purchase the book from Amazon at the cheaper
> >price White Wolf probably doesn't care as much simply because they still
> >get paid the same amount as they would by any other book dealer, and
> >Amazon gets screwed on the deal they give, and White Wolf doesn't care
> >if you get it in Ebook format because they don't have to pay the costs
> >of printing it, so they still make money. White Wolf just wants us to
> >get the book if we want it and have fun with the game, as long as we get
> >the book LEGALLY.
>
> The stupid point in doing this is that they have just ensured
> but most people will only buy one of the two. With a cheaper price on
> the e-book, people could have buy both : one for ease of reading, and
> one for ease of searching.

What percentage of people do you think would actually buy both?
If Usenet and gaming stores are anything to go by, most gamers
say they can't afford the books they want, let alone redundant
copies.

I like the idea of more affordable ebooks, but I don't think that
publishers should be motivated by the hope of duplicate sales. I
don't think that is a significant market.


> Book and ebooks should be complimentary, not opposed.
> At least for now.

You should change "complimentary" to "complementary" in that
context.

Complementary books cover one another's weaknesses, forming a
complement. Complimentary books are given as a compliment or
as a way of saying thanks.

Aside from the typo, excellent and accurate use of the word. I
am constantly impressed by the English of many of the Europeans
who post here. I mean, everything else aside, this is *Usenet*.
It feels wrong that it should be this readable!

Thanks.


> Guillaume

Vis Sierra

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Guillaume JAY <gjay_diespammer-die@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:<tccrc0hn7htfm8mhprb7n0k6kf6iejlhiu@4ax.com>...
> On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 05:41:38 -0500, "Stephen G."
> <jinxdjester@charter.net> wrote:
>
> >In other words: if you purchase the book from Amazon at the cheaper
> >price White Wolf probably doesn't care as much simply because they still
> >get paid the same amount as they would by any other book dealer, and
> >Amazon gets screwed on the deal they give, and White Wolf doesn't care
> >if you get it in Ebook format because they don't have to pay the costs
> >of printing it, so they still make money. White Wolf just wants us to
> >get the book if we want it and have fun with the game, as long as we get
> >the book LEGALLY.
>
> The stupid point in doing this is that they have just ensured
> but most people will only buy one of the two. With a cheaper price on
> the e-book, people could have buy both : one for ease of reading, and
> one for ease of searching.
>
> Book and ebooks should be complimentary, not opposed.
> At least for now.

I think it would be cool for them to drastically reduce the price
after sales start to droop to allow this -- and maybe even offer a
free ebnook version to folks who order the print version too, but that
might screw retailers.

M.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Malcolm Sheppard wrote:
>
> I think it would be cool for them to drastically reduce the price
> after sales start to droop to allow this -- and maybe even offer a
> free ebnook version to folks who order the print version too, but that
> might screw retailers.

Monte Cook's experiences would seem to suggest that many people like to buy the
PDF version early (at a guess, he releases the PDF around the same time he sends
the book to the printers) and start using the material immediately, then buy the
print version when it comes out. This category also includes the
"try-before-you-buy" people, who might switch from downloading illegal copies of
gaming books for this purpose to buying them legally if the prices suit them.

On the other hand, other people may only be interested in a product for one or
more specific parts of its content; these people won't buy the print version for
$25, but they may well buy the PDF version for $10, especially since it makes it
incredibly easy to cut-and-paste the parts they want into their own documents.
This category also includes the "try-before-you-buy" people who find that they
*don't* want to buy the print version, because only one or two things really
interest them in the book.

(I'll note that DriveThruRPG no longer restricts the amount you can
cut-and-paste their PDFs, so as far as I'm concerned only two objections
remain - that Reader 6 doesn't work for every OS, and that you have to register
with Adobe or Microsoft Net Passport.)

More generally, in a philosophical sense, I doubt that many people would happily
purchase an electronic book for the same price as a print book, simply because
it *feels* less tangible and has a more limited set of uses.

--
Christopher Adams
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nath Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?

You're not a bad person. You're a terrific person. You're my favorite person.
But every once in a while you just can be a real wise and beautiful woman.
- Bill

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Christopher Adams" <mhacdebhandia@yahoo.invalid> wrote:

> More generally, in a philosophical sense, I doubt that many people would happily
> purchase an electronic book for the same price as a print book, simply because
> it *feels* less tangible and has a more limited set of uses.

It's also harder to get your money back through resale. I could
trade in any WW book for 25% of the cover price at a local used
book store and probably get more through trade or sale to fellow
gamers, not to mention eBay. Usually, that just won't work with
ebooks.

Ideally, if there was a repository where you could trade rights
to books or music, it would be better than physical media (you'd
save on shipping, get it faster, etc.). Since there isn't, once
you've bought media-free media, you're stuck with it - your copy
has practically no worth over an illicit copy because there's no
medium for trading that ensures against copyright infringement.


> Christopher Adams

Vis Sierra

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Vis Sierra wrote:
> Guillaume JAY <gjay_diespammer-die@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>> The stupid point in doing this is that they have just ensured
>>but most people will only buy one of the two. With a cheaper price on
>>the e-book, people could have buy both : one for ease of reading, and
>>one for ease of searching.
>
> What percentage of people do you think would actually buy both?

I would, if reduced meant really cheap. I even scan and ocr parts of my
books (rules etc.) to have them read- and searchable on my laptop.
Saving the time to do so would be worth some $$ for me.

Daniel

--

my homepage : http://hd42.de

'Life is wasted on the living' - Zaphod Beeblebrox the Fourth

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Daniel Hohenberger <nagash@hd42.de> wrote:
> Vis Sierra wrote:
> > Guillaume JAY <gjay_diespammer-die@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

> >> The stupid point in doing this is that they have just ensured
> >>but most people will only buy one of the two. With a cheaper price on
> >>the e-book, people could have buy both : one for ease of reading, and
> >>one for ease of searching.
> >
> > What percentage of people do you think would actually buy both?
>
> I would, if reduced meant really cheap. I even scan and ocr parts of my
> books (rules etc.) to have them read- and searchable on my laptop.
> Saving the time to do so would be worth some $$ for me.

Well, sure. I'd buy second copies of the print ones to give out
to friends and contest-winners, if reduced meant /really/ cheap.

WW has, in the past, sold ebooks at a reduced rate of about half
cover price. I was assuming that's what Guillaume meant - cheap
as opposed to full cover price. To me, that's not /really/ cheap
- that's what I pay at a used book store and close to what I pay
at Overstock (WW books are usually 40% off at Overstock.com).

I would expect that, to get people to buy versions simply for the
convenience, you'd have to knock off 75%, and don't think you can
do that without really hurting your primary (non-discounted print
book) sales, if it's for sale to people who don't already own the
printed book.

In my opinion, even 75% off is too much. Would you pay another
$5.00 to get access to an ebook copy of a splatbook you already
own?


For what it's worth, it is possible to restrict sales to people
who have the printed version. One approach would be to require
customers to enter text from the book. The catalog interface
would select text from somewhere within the book to keep thieves
from making a note while in a book store and using it to answer
the question. It's not perfect, but it would help limit access
to those who are seeking a complementary copy.


> Daniel

Vis Sierra

 

[william]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

> WW has, in the past, sold ebooks at a reduced rate of about half
> cover price. I was assuming that's what Guillaume meant - cheap
> as opposed to full cover price. To me, that's not /really/ cheap
> - that's what I pay at a used book store and close to what I pay
> at Overstock (WW books are usually 40% off at Overstock.com).
>
> Vis Sierra

....

Is it a good thing or a bad thing that my two favorite RPG companies (WW
and GOO) have so many books available on that website?

William

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

William <wilit0613@postoffice.uri.edu> wrote:

> > WW has, in the past, sold ebooks at a reduced rate of about half
> > cover price. I was assuming that's what Guillaume meant - cheap
> > as opposed to full cover price. To me, that's not /really/ cheap
> > - that's what I pay at a used book store and close to what I pay
> > at Overstock (WW books are usually 40% off at Overstock.com).
>
> ...
>
> Is it a good thing or a bad thing that my two favorite RPG companies (WW
> and GOO) have so many books available on that website?

Good. Remember, you can always sell a kidney. You just need to
find the right buyer.

And the right donor.

....Anyway...

My only regret is that Overstock's book descriptions blow goats.
At one time they had "Exalted" four times - one for the original
and one each for Lunars, Dragonblooded and Abyssals - there was
no cover picture or description that you could use to tell them
apart! There's no excuse for selling book without listing ISBNs.


> William

Vis Sierra