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Vampire vrs Werewolf revisisted

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Anonymous
June 8, 2004 11:52:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Ok, so in my current chronicle, the prince has just fallen to some
werewolves (long story) and the PCs, at the suggestion of
Glasswalkers, went in to finish off the last of the Wendigo that did
it. The Wendigo were a sufficient cause of fear through the last
story, but when it finally came to a fight, I (and the PCs) found them
lacking (despite Kiss of Helios, Razor Claws, and Stoking Fury's
Furnace although True Fear was very effective). Can somebody show me
what I'm doing wrong by building me a level five homid auroun wendigo
and telling giving me some instructions on how they would go about
running them in a fight? Actually, a rank five glasswalker (200 exp)
might be better since the Wendigo are all dead now until the PCs head
to Vancouver.

Admittedly, the two vampires are combat characters with lots of
expereince (150+ experience), a Brujah and a Gangrel. Both have lots
of potence and celerity. The Gangrel had wolf claws and the Brujah had
a silver bowie knife. Their celerity allowed them to make good use of
dodge while the potence really skewed the damage rolls.
Anonymous
June 8, 2004 11:04:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

marc17@painandgreed.com postulated:

:: Admittedly, the two vampires are combat characters with lots of
:: expereince (150+ experience), a Brujah and a Gangrel. Both have lots
:: of potence and celerity. The Gangrel had wolf claws and the Brujah
:: had a silver bowie knife. Their celerity allowed them to make good
:: use of dodge while the potence really skewed the damage rolls.

Part of this is to do with combat smarts and remembering a few key things
about werewolves.

1) Remember that werewolves can soak agg. damage and can heal everything
else pretty quickly (usually 1 HL/turn)
2) Make use of Rage, a Garou can spend up to half their Rage to give them up
to their Wits in extra actions, make use of them. Also, remember, that a
Garou can sometimes gain Rage even during a fight. If they get hurt, make a
botch, see one of their companions fall - all of these and more can call for
a frenzy check and possibly even regaining a point of Rage to keep them
going.
3) As deadly as a single werewolf can be, werewolves are far more deadly as
pack animals using group tactics, like fur gnarling and wishbones as well as
chasing, intimidating and generally terrorising their victims so that they
have the upper hand. A lone wolf against two combat-based vampires can be
worn down with careful combat and is quite probably in enough trouble to
know to run and get reinforcements (if any exist), or just getting out of
harms way for now and then making use of whatever spirits or companions they
can call upon to take down the targets one at a time. It is not against the
Garou code to make a tactical retreat from a situation in which they are
out-numbered or their foe is greater than they can handle.
4) Be smart about fighting: although Crinos is the stronger and more
intimidating form, many werewolf players often prefer to fight in Hispo
since you get a +2 to Bite damage. Therefore, don't limit yourself to
fighting in Crinos. Hispo can be potentially more deadly and certainly much
faster if a getaway is in order. Weigh up the options.

If you're looking to create a deadly opponent for your combat-happy vampire
PCs then be sure that your Werewolf is using *all* the combat Gifts, arm him
up with some funky Fetishes that enhance him, give him some self-healing or
armour enhancing Talismans or the like.

When sheer numbers do not work, the werewolf's greatest strength lies in his
tricks. Even an ahroun should have a bag of tricks he can use to weaken
and/or wear down an enemy, especially if he's used to being outnumbered.

Hope some of that helps in some way,

Nimrod...
--
"I kill Gandalf!" -- Dork Tower
Anonymous
June 8, 2004 11:31:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"marc17" <marc17@painandgreed.com> wrote in message
news:2afb8ae0.0406080652.2bea498@posting.google.com...
> Ok, so in my current chronicle, the prince has just fallen to some
> werewolves (long story) and the PCs, at the suggestion of
> Glasswalkers, went in to finish off the last of the Wendigo that did
> it. The Wendigo were a sufficient cause of fear through the last
> story, but when it finally came to a fight, I (and the PCs) found them
> lacking (despite Kiss of Helios, Razor Claws, and Stoking Fury's
> Furnace although True Fear was very effective). Can somebody show me
> what I'm doing wrong by building me a level five homid auroun wendigo
> and telling giving me some instructions on how they would go about
> running them in a fight? Actually, a rank five glasswalker (200 exp)
> might be better since the Wendigo are all dead now until the PCs head
> to Vancouver.
>
> Admittedly, the two vampires are combat characters with lots of
> expereince (150+ experience), a Brujah and a Gangrel. Both have lots
> of potence and celerity. The Gangrel had wolf claws and the Brujah had
> a silver bowie knife. Their celerity allowed them to make good use of
> dodge while the potence really skewed the damage rolls.


Were the garou even a *little* prepared for the combat, or was it pure
surprise? Surprise generally dictates who will win. On fair terms, however,
your level 5 garou should have *NO* problems getting a hold of a Sun Crystal
or something like it.

Glass Walkers binding sun spirits into light bulbs and /turning on the
lights/ is not an image that should be foreign to you. Especially level 5
garou. Especially if the GW's know they'll be dealing with leeches.

Building a leech-wrecking garou is not especially difficult, though your
vamps aren't exactly weak, by any stretch of the imagination.
Related resources
Anonymous
June 9, 2004 12:26:15 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

> Ok, so in my current chronicle, the prince has just fallen to some
> werewolves (long story) and the PCs, at the suggestion of
> Glasswalkers, went in to finish off the last of the Wendigo that did
> it. The Wendigo were a sufficient cause of fear through the last
> story, but when it finally came to a fight, I (and the PCs) found them
> lacking (despite Kiss of Helios, Razor Claws, and Stoking Fury's
> Furnace although True Fear was very effective). Can somebody show me
> what I'm doing wrong by building me a level five homid auroun wendigo
> and telling giving me some instructions on how they would go about
> running them in a fight? Actually, a rank five glasswalker (200 exp)
> might be better since the Wendigo are all dead now until the PCs head
> to Vancouver.

> Admittedly, the two vampires are combat characters with lots of
> expereince (150+ experience), a Brujah and a Gangrel. Both have lots
> of potence and celerity. The Gangrel had wolf claws and the Brujah had
> a silver bowie knife. Their celerity allowed them to make good use of
> dodge while the potence really skewed the damage rolls.

Hmmm you were obviously not using the Garou to their full potential... with
those numbers they would have had apretty good chance of killing the
leeches...

Did you remember that Kiss of Helios causes Rotshreck? (Wendigo, Kiss of
Helios? No... forget i asked)
Did the Garou use their rage? (Rage has an edge over Celerity as it gives
you a perfect chance to do humongous damage in the firstround with 3-4
attacks)
Did the Garou use umbral combat and pack tacics?
Did any of the Garou let loose his Rage (read frenzy) in response to
presence/dominate? (one of the best ways to get out of it... albeit risky)
Did you remember that all the damage Werewolves do is Aggravated, and that
vamps can't heal aggravated?
Did the Garou use talens/fetishes? (there are tons of general fetishes that
are pretty usefull in combat... this is not counting the fact that there are
Vampire hunting fetishes/talens)

If you anwser to any of these no, then you were making it easy for the
vamps...

Garou don't just run at people waving their claws/klaives, using a gift or
two and then manically grind into people... (neither do vamps... but that's
something else)...

Totems allow for perfect coordination between the packametes and allows them
to do cooperative attacks to their fullest...

Umbra allows the Garou to dissapear for long enough and to strike from
places the Vampires cannot see them...


A rank Five Glasswalker Theurge can just prepare a nice little trap for
them... place a offering to a Fire Elemental where he is to meet them...
then just summon him (or bind him into the offering untill he is needed) as
they enter and ask him to kill them for you... Rotshreck + Fire Damage +
immunity to almost anything... you can't fo wrong with that...

This is if you want to be nasty... Otherwise you can always go for talen
bullets filled with Fire Elementals, guns that track their targets, his
whole sept backing him up... the options are countless...


--
Asmodai
------------------------------------
Asmodai @ post.h1n3t.hr
---------------------------------------------------
A flamewarrior, making a valiant
stand against the Evil Scooby Gang.
---------------------------------------------------
"Majesty, although i believe the world is flat, i figure
that with sufficient men and a big enough tire-pump
we could inflate it again"
--The First American
---------------------------------------------------
Change the 1 and 3 for I and E :) 
Anonymous
June 9, 2004 12:31:41 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

> The Gangrel had wolf claws

Boo Hoo... Werewolves soak aggravated with their stamina...

>and the Brujah had a silver bowie knife.

Werewolves are smart... you do realize that he would have been the primary
Target, he would have lost the whole hand with the knife in the first
round... one of them would head for hsi chest whiel another one would
directly rip the knife and as much of the hand as he can out of him...


And i'm still not clear how can aa vampire even come close to a Werewolf
with Kiss of Helios active, mind you... !?


--
Asmodai
------------------------------------
Asmodai @ post.h1n3t.hr
---------------------------------------------------
A flamewarrior, making a valiant
stand against the Evil Scooby Gang.
---------------------------------------------------
"Majesty, although i believe the world is flat, i figure
that with sufficient men and a big enough tire-pump
we could inflate it again"
--The First American
---------------------------------------------------
Change the 1 and 3 for I and E :) 
Anonymous
June 9, 2004 12:35:10 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

marc17 wrote:
>
> Admittedly, the two vampires are combat characters with lots of
> expereince (150+ experience), a Brujah and a Gangrel. Both have lots
> of potence and celerity. The Gangrel had wolf claws and the Brujah had
> a silver bowie knife. Their celerity allowed them to make good use of
> dodge while the potence really skewed the damage rolls.

Werewolves have the advantage, they don't get automatic wins. All else
being equal, in a straight up physical confrontation, heavily physical
vampires will defeat werewolves. Throw gifts in, and it becomes a bit
muddled... but the vampires can still win.

I don't have any books handy, but I would suggest the werewolves attack
the vampires by day, when they're weak.

--
Elizabeth D. Brooks | kali.magdalene@comcast.net | US2002021724
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
AeonAdventure | "Dobby likes us!" -- Smeagol
-- http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/view/6856
Anonymous
June 9, 2004 12:40:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Asmodai wrote:
>
> > The Gangrel had wolf claws
>
> Boo Hoo... Werewolves soak aggravated with their stamina...
>
> >and the Brujah had a silver bowie knife.
>
> Werewolves are smart... you do realize that he would have been the primary
> Target, he would have lost the whole hand with the knife in the first
> round... one of them would head for hsi chest whiel another one would
> directly rip the knife and as much of the hand as he can out of him...
>
> And i'm still not clear how can aa vampire even come close to a Werewolf
> with Kiss of Helios active, mind you... !?

You're committing the first fallacy of the "versus" argument, there.
You're assuming that the side you favor should always have perfect
tactics and will always get sufficient successes to do whatever they
want. Down that road lies Arete 1 mages detecting Absimiliard.

--
Elizabeth D. Brooks | kali.magdalene@comcast.net | US2002021724
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
AeonAdventure | "Dobby likes us!" -- Smeagol
-- http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/view/6856
Anonymous
June 9, 2004 12:44:54 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"James Stein" <NoSpamForMeThanks@si.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Iuoxc.71059$mX.24547143@twister.nyc.rr.com...

>
>
> Were the garou even a *little* prepared for the combat, or was it pure
> surprise? Surprise generally dictates who will win. On fair terms,
however,
> your level 5 garou should have *NO* problems getting a hold of a Sun
Crystal
> or something like it.

When I say "fair terms" I mean "with both parties prepared for combat ahead
of time."

A level 5 garou has the advantage of access to fetishes and spirit allies,
which a Vampire really cannot compare with as far as arsenals go. If that
garou has time to prepare, he should be able to bitch them. That's only
"if", though, and that's a /big/ if. Where the Vampires are the hunters,
choosing /when/ to fight is generally up to them, after all.

However, surprise generally gives the victory, IME, all else aside.
Anonymous
June 9, 2004 12:45:04 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

marc17 squarked:
> it. The Wendigo were a sufficient cause of fear through the last
> story, but when it finally came to a fight, I (and the PCs) found them
> lacking (despite Kiss of Helios, Razor Claws, and Stoking Fury's
> Furnace although True Fear was very effective). Can somebody show me
> what I'm doing wrong by building me a level five homid auroun wendigo
> and telling giving me some instructions on how they would go about
> running them in a fight?
Don't pit them against PCs. In my experience, PCs will survive against just
about anything with stats (except for drunks with broken beer bottles). The
only way to make sure an NPC survives is for them not fight the PCs.
--
Picks-at-Flies
A flamewarrior, making a valiant stand against the Evil Scooby Gang.
http://www.werepenguin.net
Anonymous
June 9, 2004 12:45:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Picks-at-Flies" <aidan@nospam.werepenguin.co.uk> wrote in message news:<ca556b$b5t$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>...

> Don't pit them against PCs. In my experience, PCs will survive against just
> about anything with stats (except for drunks with broken beer bottles). The
> only way to make sure an NPC survives is for them not fight the PCs.

Word.

No, the PCs were supposed to win, I was just surprised with how little
effort they did.

The PCs were following the garou after combat inorder to make sure
there were no survivors after all was said and done. PCs had to roll
for Rotschrek before they even entered the area because there was fire
and again when facing the garou with Kiss of Helios which they did. I
didn't keep explicit track of rage but all garou got extra actions and
no wound penalties. The vampires were combat models (this story was
their reward combat for the last year of politics which they did
little) and were prepared pumped stats. This plus celerity, potence
and weapons seemed to put them in pretty even odds with the garou. No
combat lasted more than two rounds for healing to have any real
affect. Of course, although I say not longer than two rounds we are
talking about 4 actions per round for each person.

This doesn't even take into account the ghouls with silver bullets
that were off doing something else. I finally had to have them show up
and do the final blow on the garou otherwise nobody would ever hear
the end of it from the gangrel who is always going on aobut how
dangerous he is.
Anonymous
June 9, 2004 4:38:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

marc17@painandgreed.com (marc17) wrote:

> Ok, so in my current chronicle, the prince has just fallen to some
> werewolves (long story) and the PCs, at the suggestion of
> Glasswalkers, went in to finish off the last of the Wendigo that did
: it.

The Wendigo being thinned-out and any information the Glasswalker
passed on should be counted in the vampires' favor. So, how many
Wendigo were left to take part in this battle? Wendigo is plural
and singular, and you switch back and forth. Do you mean last as
in very last one?

If that's the case, it's not unreasonable for two combat oriented
characters of the experience you describe to defeat one werewolf.
It's unlikely that they would fight to the death, as the werewolf
would probably try to escape, if it's without a pack and losing.

Also, out of curiosity, what were the surroundings when the fight
began?


: The Wendigo were a sufficient cause of fear through the last
> story, but when it finally came to a fight, I (and the PCs) found them
> lacking (despite Kiss of Helios, Razor Claws, and Stoking Fury's
> Furnace although True Fear was very effective). Can somebody show me
> what I'm doing wrong by building me a level five homid auroun wendigo
> and telling giving me some instructions on how they would go about
> running them in a fight? Actually, a rank five glasswalker (200 exp)
> might be better since the Wendigo are all dead now until the PCs head
> to Vancouver.

Okay, let's start with the simple things - arms and armor. The
character should have a bow, rifle or shotgun, and possibly a
pistol. He should have a blade weapon, such as a large hunting
knife or a klaive. He may have backup weapons, through possibly
not - his natural weaponry generally outweighs their usefulness.
Remember, this is the Garou equivalent of an Archon or powerful
Scourge - someone who was not only in the profession of killing
other supernaturals, but very much a veteran at it.

I'd expect the character to possess at least one Fetish weapon.
If the character is a vampire hunter, expect him to have talens
as well that would be useful against vampires in particular (a
talen is a single-use fetish - an arrow, a medicine bag filled
with powder, an intricate knot that releases a spirit when it's
untied, etc.).

A bladed weapon is more for dealing with other Garou (fangs and
claws put you on even terms with another garou, but silver will
put you ahead); ranged weapons are more useful for dealing with
vampires and the more noxious Wyrm creatures. Overall, I think
ranged weapons are more likely to be fetishes because Garou can
always fall back on claws and teeth for melee/brawl combat.

A rank 5 Garou may have between 3 and 9 dots in various Fetishes,
depending on the fetishes and the character. The character will
likely have at least one fetish that's level 3 or greater; given
the character's an Ahroun, if it's not a weapon or armor, it will
probably still be something useful in combat. Also note that the
surviving Wendigo may have fallen packmates' weapons, and as a
result may be more heavily armed and armored than the character
would be under normal circumstances.


Sample weapon: War Bow (level 4 fetish; Werewolf: the Wild West)

A War Bow deals out Strength+2 aggravated damage on successful
attacks. The difficulty (target number) on the attack roll is
lowered by two, and the base difficulty is the number of yards
to the target divided by the attacker's strength.

For your rank 5 Wendigo, let's give him Strength 4, Dexterity 4,
Athletics 4 and assume the character has at least one applicable
specialty (such as Archery for Athletics). This gives the
character a Strength of 8 in Crinos form and a target number of
4 at a range out to 32 yards. He'll have 9 dice for the attack
roll and may attack several times in a turn thanks to Rage. If
he hits, he rolls 10 dice of damage, against which vampires can
only use Fortitude and armor to soak. In addition, the Garou
may be carrying talen arrows or know Gifts that have additional
effects to enhance arrows, if he feels they are necessary.

The character is very much a veteran of fighting wyrm creatures
and vampires as a member of a pack. He will have worked out
tactics that allow him to work effectively with others, such as
recognizing when a packmate is leaving open an opportunity for
the archer to take a shot at the packmate's opponent. Garou as
pack hunters know the importance of cutting down an enemy through
teamwork so that they can work to double-team remaining targets.
Likewise, the character knows the importance of taking down an
enemy early in a fight, and will spend Willpower to 'guarantee'
a hit early on; if nothing else, this will (probably) inflict
a wound penalty that should last for the remainder of the scene.
(Ww:tWW came out before the revised edition rules; in revised
rules, I would expect the bow to be dropped to Strength+1, but
successes on the attack will add to damage rolls.)

If the Garou wants to stake a vampire with an arrow, he must do
so with a +3 difficulty modifier (TN 7 our to 96 feet or 6 at 48
feet, in this case). He gains an additional +2 dice of damage.
If he hits and scores at least three net successes, the vampire
is staked (assuming the arrow doesn't go through...and that the
vampire wasn't killed outright by the aggravated damage). Note
that targeting the heart is not taking your time to aim, per se,
and it can be done on any or every attack.


Armor - the Wendigo are the Garou most likely to possess a ghost
shirt. Also, see the link below for a description of real ghost
shirts. A ghost shirt is a sacred garment (not necessarily in
the form of a shirt) that protects the wearer. The Wendigo Ghost
Shirt fetish in canon is a level 5 fetish that gives absolute
protection against bullets and other projectile weapons (magical
attacks and enchanted projectiles may still get through). I have
seen rank 4 fetishes provide 4 dice of protection without penalty
but can't find a specific example.

Either would be possible for a rank 5 Ahroun, though even at rank
5, a character's unlikely to possess both. Keep in mind my note
about retaining a fallen character's fetishes, however.

For a little more information on real ghost shirts (and dresses):
http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/eigh...


> Admittedly, the two vampires are combat characters with lots of
> expereince (150+ experience), a Brujah and a Gangrel. Both have lots
> of potence and celerity. The Gangrel had wolf claws and the Brujah had
> a silver bowie knife. Their celerity allowed them to make good use of
> dodge while the potence really skewed the damage rolls.

First, I have a feeling the Garou immediately recognize them as a
serious threat. It may sound silly to say, but if two vampires
elect to take on two or more Wendigo (how many Wendigo were there
left at the start of the attack?), the Garou are going to take it
on faith they're badasses. Most vampires, even combat oriented
ones, are going to feel the urge to run if they see a werewolf in
the flesh - attacking one or more is homicidal or suicidal mania!

As a result, the Wendigo will to try to take at least one of them
down immediately. If the Wendigo has experience with vampires, I
would expect it to be the Brujah - not because he's a Brujah, but
because the other is a Gangrel, and can probably be recognized as
such.

Let me explain: I assume the rank 5 Ahroun(s) have significant
experience, to the point that they believe leeches that look like
feral beasts - and any Gangrel with 150 experience points should
have some telling features - are tough, but not especially fast
or tricky (in terms of mind control or miscellaneous mojo). Ones
that look relatively human are wildcards, but tend not to be as
tough on average. As a result, killing off the potentially weak
but potentially more tricky character isn't such a bad bet. The
Wendigo would do better trying to kill one vampire than try to
wound both, even though Storyteller takes wound penalties into
account. If more than one Wendigo survived, two should work to
ensure the wildcard is taken down, and then pair up against the
feral leech. They shouldn't deliberately leave themselves open
to attacks by the Gangrel, but the focus of their own attacks is
going to be the same vampire.

An alternate approach would be to try to take down the Gangrel
first; if combat goes poorly, the Wendigo may need to flee and
a feral leech is more likely to be able to change into a bat or
wolf and pursue effectively - or to escape as mist, though this
may be pushing the limit on what an experienced Garou may know
(or think they know) about vampires.

If possible, the Wendigo will try to take down a vampire before
they get too close. An arrow through the heart or eyesocket's
a good idea. So is a talen bullet that affects everyone like a
silver bullet affects a Garou (aggravated damage, no soak except
through armor).

If the Garou has no ranged weapon he may improvise something, in
hopes of a knockdown. Let me reiterate: the Wendigo is a combat
veteran, and will not pass up opportunities to disable, distract,
or weaken his opponent's position. A knockdown would do only a
trivial amount of damage, but a) may cost the attacking vampire
an action, b) will slow him down (initiative penalty), and c) be
disruptive to the vampire's plan of attack (+1 penalty to *every*
action on the next turn).

Never allow a rank 5 anything to waste an action. This monster
has killed hundreds if not thousands of Wyrm minions. It makes
the real world's most hardened assassin or mercenary look naive.
We are in ultimate killing machine territory, here, and you are
tasked with bringing it to life. Think tactically. Be brutal.
Most of all, be a professional killer. Beyond werewolf, beyond
Wendigo, that's what an Ahroun of this rank is. And it's up to
the players of the 150+ experience combat-oriented vampires to do
the same for their characters.


It's getting rather late, so apologies if I sound like I haven't
thought this all through. I'll follow up with more thoughts, if
time permits, later in the week.


Vis Sierra
Anonymous
June 9, 2004 5:51:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

> > And i'm still not clear how can aa vampire even come close to a Werewolf
> > with Kiss of Helios active, mind you... !?
>
> You're committing the first fallacy of the "versus" argument, there.
> You're assuming that the side you favor should always have perfect
> tactics and will always get sufficient successes to do whatever they
> want. Down that road lies Arete 1 mages detecting Absimiliard.

Yadda yadda... i don't feel liek going down your path again...

So...Yes D... but how do a Brujah and a Gangrel deal with WALKING SUNLIGHT?

Thank you :) 


--
Asmodai
------------------------------------
Asmodai @ post.h1n3t.hr
---------------------------------------------------
A flamewarrior, making a valiant
stand against the Evil Scooby Gang.
---------------------------------------------------
"Majesty, although i believe the world is flat, i figure
that with sufficient men and a big enough tire-pump
we could inflate it again"
--The First American
---------------------------------------------------
Change the 1 and 3 for I and E :) 
Anonymous
June 9, 2004 5:56:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

In news:2imddsFop3p1U1@uni-berlin.de,
Nimrod Jones <Nimrod_V01D@doleos.demon.co.uk> typed:
> 1) Remember that werewolves can soak agg. damage and can heal
> everything else pretty quickly (usually 1 HL/turn)

Isn't this limited/require a roll during combat?

> 2) Make use of Rage, a Garou can spend up to half their Rage to give
> them up to their Wits in extra actions, make use of them.

He specified lots of celerity. High celerity beats Rage in most scenarios.
Celerity isn't limited by Wits or such and although bloodpools are finite a
vamp will have far less to worry about fuelwise, in general.


I concur with your points on fetishes et al.
--
T. Koivula
Anonymous
June 9, 2004 5:56:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

> > 2) Make use of Rage, a Garou can spend up to half their Rage to give
> > them up to their Wits in extra actions, make use of them.

> He specified lots of celerity. High celerity beats Rage in most scenarios.
> Celerity isn't limited by Wits or such and although bloodpools are finite
a
> vamp will have far less to worry about fuelwise, in general.

You do realise that Clerity kicks in a turn later while Rage is there in the
first turn? A Werewolf can have 3-4 attacks with full dicepools... while a
vampire will have only one action...

This first turn can be used quite well for very nice effects :) 


--
Asmodai
------------------------------------
Asmodai @ post.h1n3t.hr
---------------------------------------------------
A flamewarrior, making a valiant
stand against the Evil Scooby Gang.
---------------------------------------------------
"Majesty, although i believe the world is flat, i figure
that with sufficient men and a big enough tire-pump
we could inflate it again"
--The First American
---------------------------------------------------
Change the 1 and 3 for I and E :) 
Anonymous
June 9, 2004 5:56:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"T. Koivula" <plistat@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ca5g70$ngr$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>...

>
> I concur with your points on fetishes et al.

I missed fetishes. Not too familiar with Werewolf to begin with.
Didn't see anything really interesting at first glance.
June 9, 2004 5:56:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Asmodai wrote:

>>>2) Make use of Rage, a Garou can spend up to half their Rage to give
>>>them up to their Wits in extra actions, make use of them.
>
>
>>He specified lots of celerity. High celerity beats Rage in most scenarios.
>>Celerity isn't limited by Wits or such and although bloodpools are finite
>
> a
>
>>vamp will have far less to worry about fuelwise, in general.
>
>
> You do realise that Clerity kicks in a turn later while Rage is there in the
> first turn? A Werewolf can have 3-4 attacks with full dicepools... while a
> vampire will have only one action...
>
> This first turn can be used quite well for very nice effects :) 
>
>
> --
> Asmodai

Also, the worse the fight is going for a Garou, the more Rage he regains
every turn (pain, humiliation, frustration, anger all generate Rage).
Rage is a very renewable resource, and the Garou should have regenerated
plenty after a turn of being pummeled by uber-vamps. Blood pools, on the
other hand, require opposable actions to recharge.

William
Anonymous
June 9, 2004 7:55:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

> Also, the worse the fight is going for a Garou, the more Rage he regains
> every turn (pain, humiliation, frustration, anger all generate Rage).
> Rage is a very renewable resource, and the Garou should have regenerated
> plenty after a turn of being pummeled by uber-vamps. Blood pools, on the
> other hand, require opposable actions to recharge.

There's the problem that once celerity kicks in it's quite a bit
nastier...and that we are atlking abotu aggravated wounds...

In my opinion the Garou need to use the first turn of the combat to the
utmost... if they manage to rip off a hand or two, and use their pack
tactics carefully they can mess them up...

Waiting for Celerity to kick in when someone has a silver knife is not very
healthy...

On the other hand, at least the knife will be unusable after a while...
silver is horrible as a weapon... unless you use magic/rituals to make it
stronger...

And i'm interested who actually makes all those "Silver katanas" and "Silver
bowie knives" of the regular persusion... :)  Let alone who buys them at the
prices they are made, and with the quick detoriation of silver...

Silver bullets are the best option... coupled with a sniper rifle and
sitting half a city away... :) 

--
Asmodai
------------------------------------
Asmodai @ post.h1n3t.hr
---------------------------------------------------
A flamewarrior, making a valiant
stand against the Evil Scooby Gang.
---------------------------------------------------
"Majesty, although i believe the world is flat, i figure
that with sufficient men and a big enough tire-pump
we could inflate it again"
--The First American
---------------------------------------------------
Change the 1 and 3 for I and E :) 
Anonymous
June 9, 2004 5:33:12 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"T. Koivula" <plistat@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ca5g70$ngr$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
> In news:2imddsFop3p1U1@uni-berlin.de,
> Nimrod Jones <Nimrod_V01D@doleos.demon.co.uk> typed:
> > 1) Remember that werewolves can soak agg. damage and can heal
> > everything else pretty quickly (usually 1 HL/turn)
>
> Isn't this limited/require a roll during combat?

Stamina roll each round of combat to continue regenerating. Not all that
limited, given stamina bonuses in non-homid forms.
Anonymous
June 9, 2004 10:35:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

/me claps and bowes before Vis Serra


--
Asmodai
------------------------------------
Asmodai @ post.h1n3t.hr
---------------------------------------------------
A flamewarrior, making a valiant
stand against the Evil Scooby Gang.
---------------------------------------------------
"Majesty, although i believe the world is flat, i figure
that with sufficient men and a big enough tire-pump
we could inflate it again"
--The First American
---------------------------------------------------
Change the 1 and 3 for I and E :) 
Anonymous
June 9, 2004 10:45:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

> > Isn't this limited/require a roll during combat?
>
> Stamina roll each round of combat to continue regenerating. Not all that
> limited, given stamina bonuses in non-homid forms.

Best of all it's reflexive... but if they are Wendigo Ahroun they are pretty
sure to have Combat Healing, so they don't even have to roll...


--
Asmodai
------------------------------------
Asmodai @ post.h1n3t.hr
---------------------------------------------------
A flamewarrior, making a valiant
stand against the Evil Scooby Gang.
---------------------------------------------------
"Majesty, although i believe the world is flat, i figure
that with sufficient men and a big enough tire-pump
we could inflate it again"
--The First American
---------------------------------------------------
Change the 1 and 3 for I and E :) 
Anonymous
June 9, 2004 10:49:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

> > I concur with your points on fetishes et al.

> I missed fetishes. Not too familiar with Werewolf to begin with.
> Didn't see anything really interesting at first glance.

That's a big miss...

Werewolves are half spiritual beings... their lives revolve around spirits,
rites and mythology directly tied into Animism...

The Spirits have ancient accord by which they have promised to help the
Garou (and the other Fera)... this help comes from Gifts and from
Fetishes...

Talens are one use fetishes... fetishes are essentialy magic items...

The trick is that you can build any sort of a Fetish and or a Talen... it
depends only on your creativity and your ability to get the spirits you
need... and there are tons of smaller spirits that can give you great
effects...

This is of course skipping the fact that big Fetishes with high level
spirits are legendary...



..... and the fun part is that you can quite easily ask a sun spirit to enter
a small crystal sphere for a day, and then just crash the sphere on the
floor and have a sun shining where it was thrown for a few minutes...


--
Asmodai
------------------------------------
Asmodai @ post.h1n3t.hr
---------------------------------------------------
A flamewarrior, making a valiant
stand against the Evil Scooby Gang.
---------------------------------------------------
"Majesty, although i believe the world is flat, i figure
that with sufficient men and a big enough tire-pump
we could inflate it again"
--The First American
---------------------------------------------------
Change the 1 and 3 for I and E :) 
Anonymous
June 10, 2004 2:56:40 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

marc17 squarked:
> No
> combat lasted more than two rounds for healing to have any real
> affect. Of course, although I say not longer than two rounds we are
> talking about 4 actions per round for each person.
This, and the silver weapon, is the crucial point. Taken by surprise, or at
least without much time to prepare, it is hard for the garou to use any
decent gifts since they either require an action (razor claws) or to
spend/roll Gnosis. Similarly all fetishes except weapons require a gnosis
roll to activate them. Since you cannot roll Rage and Gnosis in the same
turn they do not provide any advantage.

We can deduce two strategies from this:
one is to change the rules. Silver loses one of the two properties so it
either is unsoakable OR it does agg. Alternatively give the garou something
to soak silver (Luna's Armour is the most obvious gift if not strictly
appropriate, but their are other gifts scattered around the literature).
Perhaps give the glasswalker metal plating armour that not only allows a
soak but gives additional soak bonus leading to an outrageous soak.

two is to not get into a fight (at least until things are in your favour).
Controlling machines has already been mentioned. What happens if the
glasswalker and allies can actually control the entire environment of their
lair? All it takes is shutting a few steel doors between the characters and
the PCs are fighting on their own against an unseen enemy. Glasswalkers
have all sorts of technology at their disposal, such as phosphorus grenades
for instance. But even a bag full of fireworks can potentially send a
vampire into frenzy, weakening him and reducing blood pool.

Gifts: Don't forget the less combat orientated gifts like Blur of the Milky
Eye and its ilk (working like ofuscate). Attunement for the Glasswalker to
know exactly what is happening. Various gifts can disable or destroy the
silver knife. If the PCs are seperated, Doppleganger will let the
Glasswalker impersonate the buddy long enough for a surprise attack.
Finally, and my favourite, Call of the Wyrm summons wyrm creatures and with
a bit of luck the two groups will fight each other, leading either to the
start of hostilities between them or an opportunity to strike a weakened
foe.

--
Picks-at-Flies
A flamewarrior, making a valiant stand against the Evil Scooby Gang.
http://www.werepenguin.net
Anonymous
June 10, 2004 6:33:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

plistat@hotmail.com postulated:

:: In news:2imddsFop3p1U1@uni-berlin.de,
:: Nimrod Jones <Nimrod_V01D@doleos.demon.co.uk> typed:
::: 1) Remember that werewolves can soak agg. damage and can heal
::: everything else pretty quickly (usually 1 HL/turn)
::
:: Isn't this limited/require a roll during combat?

Only for Lethal Damage under Revised rules, IIRC. Bashing is still so
minimal that you can heal as if resting. For Lethal I think it's a Stamina +
Primal Urge roll or something, I can't remember the exact roll off the top
of my head, atm.

Nimrod..
--
"I didn't know there was a red light district in the land of
make-believe!" - Toothgnip, Goats
Anonymous
June 10, 2004 6:46:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

look@post.hr postulated:

:::: I concur with your points on fetishes et al.
::
::: I missed fetishes. Not too familiar with Werewolf to begin with.
::: Didn't see anything really interesting at first glance.
::
:: That's a big miss...
::
:: Werewolves are half spiritual beings... their lives revolve around
:: spirits, rites and mythology directly tied into Animism...
<snip>

Absolutely, I cannot re-iterate enough the importance of Fetishes in
Werewolf and it's not about cherry-picking the cool ones from a book, it's
literally about "this is a cool idea!" but be sure to keep it believable. If
he's got the uber-sunlight talen, why does he have it? Perhaps, indeed, he's
been fighting vampires and is anticipating an attack from them and has had
this as an emergency offensive against them. Even if it doesn't kill them,
it can be used to cover an escape. Flash, sunlight, pain, possible
Rotschrek, where did he go?

A Garou without Fetishes compared to one with is at no end of a
disadvantage. Great stock is given in Garou society revolving around what
fetishes you have and how powerful they are. If you're designing a Garou
hero he should have some pretty impressive fetishes (for the purposes of
combat you only really need to worry about offensive and defensive fetishes
since vampires can't use fetishes so there's little point devising
non-combat ones - unless they are integral to some feature of his character
that's been manifest in the game, like an uncanny ability to be in the right
(or wrong) place at the right (or wrong) time).

Fetishes can quite literally be the difference between life or death.

Nimrod...
--
"To defeat my enemy I must study my enemy,
then become my enemy, then move in with my enemy,
then wear my enemy's clothes..." -- Dib, 'Invader Zim'
Anonymous
June 10, 2004 6:50:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

look@post.hr postulated:

:: Best of all it's reflexive... but if they are Wendigo Ahroun they
:: are pretty sure to have Combat Healing, so they don't even have to
:: roll...

In fact, since it's a Vampire game I'd even make it a given that anything
less than Agg is automatically healed 1/round without bothering with Gifts
and/or rolling Stamina. Especially if he's supposed to be a formidable
adversary. Put the fear in the players that this fuzzy fiend just won't go
down!

Also remember that they get a final Rage check when they fall below
Incapacitated to InstaHeal(tm) per successes so that they can potentially
stay alive. Gifts like Resist Pain makes a cornered Garou one of the most
deadly opponents anyone can face no matter who you are.

Nimrod...
--
"I'm going to sing the Doom Song now." -- G.I.R., 'Invader Zim'
!