Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question
Solved

Unfinished build

Last response: in Systems
Share
November 10, 2012 9:13:38 PM

Hi guys/gals
So...I finally pulled the trigger on some hardware after going round and round for several months. (It seems the more I learn, the more confused I become) Here is what sits at my desk as we speak-
i5 3570k
Gigabyte Z77-D3H
Hyper 212 Plus
Seagate Barracuda 2000 GB hdd
8 GB Vengeance LP DDR3 RAM
Lite-on 24x dvd
Cooler-Master HAF 912 case

The Corsair Builders seriesCX 750 atx came DOA and has been returned to amaz. I want at least a semi-modular PSU now. (too many cables hanging ......)
I did not purchase a GPU since my plan was to try the HD 4000 on-board to see how it compared to my 8400GS first. Now I want a discrete card. 7990, perhaps?
I'd like to know your thoughts on PSU's and GPU's for this build, please. Also wondering about an ssd and the benefits of same.
Money is not the issue. However, it is AN issue. (won't spend 1K on a GPU, maybe 1/2 that, though)
I also am not keen on another Corsair product after this experience. I'm considering at least 750w to power this card. Is this in the ballpark or do I need more? It's possible I will overclock and/or Crossfire the GPU's at a later date but don't intend that now.
Anyone have any thoughts they would be willing to share?
I've read that the 7990 is almost at the top of the food chain but maybe it's overkill? This board is not capable of SLI, I believe, so Radeon it is.
After reading a few posts on win8 I plan to buy 7.
Which one would you choose? (have a copy of XP but don't think it can utilize all the memory, correct?
I want to play games. I'm an old man but still enjoy them :)  I'm also planning to power up my projector for streaming movies. The rest is basic stuff for now.
Thanks in advance
bob

More about : unfinished build

November 10, 2012 10:20:06 PM

I feel like the 7970 would make more sense than the 7990. But if you would rather not deal with crossfire, and you are good for it, you might want it now.
m
0
l
November 10, 2012 10:47:51 PM

Hi... youngster:) 

A very good start.
You may be surprised at how well HD4000 does. It will be fine for anything but fast action games.
Civ 4 plays well on it.

The psu you need will be gated by the graphics card you pick.
Here is a chart to select a psu:
http://www.realhardtechx.com/index_archivos/Page362.htm
A 650w psu will power any single modern graphics card.
It is not wrong to overprovision a bit.
But, future graphics cards will not need more power, probably less.

I think Seasonic makes the best quality units today.
Look for seasonal sales on the Seasonic X series gold rated units. Yes, they are modular.
Here is the X650 : http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Here is a list of psu's sorted by quality tiers. Pick a tier 1 or tier 2 unit:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

If your budget permits, the GTX680 or 7970 are the strongest single gpu cards available today.
That is plenty for a single monitor.
For triple monitor gaming, then you are looking at a $1000 gtx690 or a 7990.
Some will argue, and correctly, that a factory overclocked GTX670 comes close to a GTX680.
But if the extra $80 or so is not all that important, I wouuld buy a factory overclocked GTX680. Anything less, and you will always be wondering if you did the right thing.
m
0
l
Related resources
November 10, 2012 11:09:03 PM

GTX 680 is faster than 7970 like 10 frames and like 100 score on Future Mark. If you are chasing value, 7970 is the way to go. If you are chasing FPS, get 680.

And no, HD4000 is garbage, even at playing on lowest setting.

Get a SSD, non-sdd is junk for hardcore gaming.

And unless you OC your card to like 1500 Mhz clock, and 2000 Mhz memory on the 7870, you will get only 1-8% performance improvement, not worth it, especially when you need liquid cooling at hardcore OC.
m
0
l
November 11, 2012 12:41:54 AM

Thanks guys
I've made a mistake in the numbers. I was talking about the 7970. I don't think this mobo is good for a pair of nvidea cards. It seems only to support crossfire which I take to mean AMD only so I am leaning in that direction.
Some of the vids I've seen on the "tube" using only the HD 4000 are surprisingly good. Don't forget what I have now (8400GS) I think the on-board is better than that already.
I am not, so far, a hardcore gamer. If I told you what I wanted to play you would laugh out loud at this build. It's massively more than I need! I started pushing "add to cart" and couldn't stop!
As far as the PSU goes, if I choose to double up on the cards in the future I'm guessing I'll need more wattage. y/n?
Thanks to geofelt for the advice on seasonic. I'll take that to the bank, I think.
I know very little about ssd's and how they work. I almost purchased one,......and then removed it. Since I need to order the new PSU, maybe I'll get one after all. Could someone explain very simply how it would help me? (storage for the OS only? or games?)
No one has opined about Win Xp vs 7 or 8. 32 bit or 64? Home, Pro, etc. Any thoughts?
squirrelonfire (there's an image:) , I thank you for your input as well.
Lt. Dan- since you seem to agree with the 7970 choice, your response helps confirm what I had been thinking at first and I appreciate you weighing in.
I'm up for anyone else's opinions as well.
Thanks again
bob
m
0
l

Best solution

November 11, 2012 1:12:37 AM

If you are not a hard core gamer, playing fast action shooters, you probably do not need a top of the line graphics card like the GTX680 or 7970. Something more modest will likely be good for you. Perhaps a $240 GTX660.
You get fair value at every price point.
Check on the recommended requirements for the games you want to play.
You might read this article to get an idea of what to expect:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-graphics-car...

As to dual cards, I am not much in favor of planning on that.
Here is my canned rant on dual cards:
-----------------------------Start of rant----------------------------------------------------
Dual graphics cards vs. a good single card.

a) How good do you really need to be?
A single GTX650/ti or 7770 can give you good performance at 1920 x 1200 in most games.

A single GTX660 or 7850 will give you excellent performance at 1920 x 1200 in most games.
Even 2560 x 1600 will be good with lowered detail.
A single gtx690 is about as good as it gets.

Only if you are looking at triple monitor gaming, then sli/cf will be needed.
Even that is now changing with triple monitor support on top end cards.

b) The costs for a single card are lower.
You require a less expensive motherboard; no need for sli/cf or multiple pci-e slots.
Even a ITX motherboard will do.

Your psu costs are less.
A GTX660 needs a 430w psu, even a GTX680 only needs a 550w psu.
When you add another card to the mix, plan on adding 150-200w to your psu requirements.

Even the strongest GTX690 only needs 620w.

Case cooling becomes more of an issue with dual cards.
That means a more expensive case with more and stronger fans.
You will also look at more noise.

c) Dual cards do not always render their half of the display in sync, causing microstuttering. It is an annoying effect.
The benefit of higher benchmark fps can be offset, particularly with lower tier cards.
Read this: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-geforce-stut...

d) dual card support is dependent on the driver. Not all games can benefit from dual cards.

e) cf/sli up front reduces your option to get another card for an upgrade. Not that I suggest you plan for that.
It will often be the case that replacing your current card with a newer gen card will offer a better upgrade path.
The GTX780 and amd 8000 series are not that far off.
-------------------------------End of rant-----------------------------------------------------------

Now, the SSD is perhaps the best thing you can buy. It makes everything you do feel so much quicker.
It is really a solid state hard drive. It connects to sata cables, just like a hard drive. They are smaller, 2.5" vs. 3.5", and dead silent.
Random i/o is about 50x faster than a hard drive. That is what the os does mostly.
It will be 3x faster in sequential operations.
The only negative is the price per gb which is currently $1 per gb, and dropping.
A build like yours absolutely deserves one.
120gb will hold the os and a handful of games. with 180gb or 250gb, you might not need a hard drive at all.
Use a hard drive for storage of large files like video's and for backups.

I see no compelling reason to buy windows 8 for a desktop. There will be the inevitable bugs.
indows 7 home premium 64 bit would be my choice.
You need 64 bit to access more than 4gb of ram.
There are few reasons for the home user to want pro or ultimate.
The windows web site will have a side by side checklist of features.

For reliability, I like Samsung and Intel best.
Share
November 11, 2012 1:20:30 AM

squirrelonfire said:
GTX 680 is faster than 7970 like 10 frames and like 100 score on Future Mark. If you are chasing value, 7970 is the way to go. If you are chasing FPS, get 680.

And no, HD4000 is garbage, even at playing on lowest setting.

Get a SSD, non-sdd is junk for hardcore gaming.

And unless you OC your card to like 1500 Mhz clock, and 2000 Mhz memory on the 7870, you will get only 1-8% performance improvement, not worth it, especially when you need liquid cooling at hardcore OC.

680 isn't all that much faster anymore with the new amd drivers, especially when you factor in overclocking.
m
0
l
November 11, 2012 1:28:30 AM

lt_dan_zsu said:
680 isn't all that much faster anymore with the new amd drivers, especially when you factor in overclocking.


People overclock there CPU's all the time but I would pay to bet they do less and less with there video cards.


@ geo thanks for the list of power supply requirements haven't seen a compiled list like that before.
m
0
l
November 11, 2012 2:19:32 AM

Thanks guys, why are you up so late? Or, why are you not out on a sat.? My excuse is computer shopping, heh, heh.
So, I think you are right, geofelt. I'll stick with just the one card and buy an SSD.
(I'm playing Rollercoaster Tycoon 3 Platinum- see, 'told you you'd laugh) I've always been a "this would be better w/more power" type and I can afford the 7970-- 399$ at amz. (sapphire- 3Gbs) I play this game at 1400x900 and I can't keep up right now. Lowering the detail is exactly the opposite of what I intend to do. On any game. Hence the spending. :)  I want to be sure anything new I try won't need to be lowered, either.
I have also seen some very interesting games via utube and since I often have several free days available (hmmm....no wonder I'm home tonight) I could become harder core. If I can't see the difference on screen, however, there's no point in spending extra money. Aside from owning one yourself is there any reason you're so up on the GTXs? I had made up my mind on the 7970 and nearly bought it tonight, then checked this again and am thinking I'll wait another day or two till I "get my mind right".
Thanks for the advice on the win 7. I was thinking along those lines as well but you cleared up the memory vs bit questions with your answer.
Thanks to the others for continuing to discuss this, even if behind my back, :) 
I'll check back later.
bob
m
0
l
November 11, 2012 2:55:20 AM

a 7970 single non dual card you can get currently due to drivers since the recent amd drivers pushed them ahead.

I think people are high on nvidia's product because of there driver stability there 3D surround, and for there physx all of those things depend on what you do and what you play. I would even venture unless you were going to use mutiple screens or something that a 7970 is a bit overkill at 1400x900.

what games were you thinking about playing?
m
0
l
November 11, 2012 1:50:38 PM

I really don't think you will need a 7970 or GTX680 class graphics card.

I might suggest a more modest 7950 or GTX670.
I happen to prefer the Nvidia drivers and suggest the EVGA GTX670 FTW:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
1. EVGA has one of the better US based support organizations and an active support forum.
2. The FTW is a factory overclocked version and comes close to GTX680 performance.
3. EVGA has a 90 day upgrade trade-in program so if you trade up, they credit you with the full purchase price of your old card.
4. I like the direct exhaust cooler which gets hot air out of your case directly.
5. If you buy from Newegg, they will credit you with the difference in price if the price drops anywhere before Christmas.

As a suggestion for a game you might like, look at civilization IV with the Beyond the Sword expansion pack:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA0ZG...

The game has high replayability, I have been playing it for years.
It is much better than Civilization V
m
0
l
November 11, 2012 3:05:47 PM

Thanks geo
The game looks interesting, more my speed than the 1st person shooters.
newegg has the 7970 Sapphire 3Gb for 399$ any reason not to spend the extra $?
I have really enjoyed the support from EVGA for my 8400gs. Two driver upgrades have improved it's performance immensely. It still will not keep up with my old game (04 release) I'm short on CPU and RAM also but expect I have that problem solved.
The SeaSonic you recommended looks to be 50$ less than amaz. GOOD! How fast can I expect delivery? My orders have all shown up in less than 5 days even with std. free shipping. It's been great! I'd like to order this stuff today so as to have it by the weekend.
Sapphire is a name I recognize and my game suggests it runs better on ati radeon cards. However......I'm guessing it was a marketing ploy for the times?
So I'm thinking the SeaSonic X650 recommended by geofelt
Samsung or Intel SSD- recommendations, anybody?
Win 7 home Preem
And .....a card ???? agggh!
I'm cooking a roast but "I'll be back"

bob
m
0
l
November 11, 2012 3:51:11 PM

Holy Cow, geo!
I just discovered what the "more information" line was about. We're of the same ilk.
Now I understand why we both enjoy the strategy type games as much. So now I'll heed your advice a bit more. I do not know how to post a link to another site ie: newegg parts but am still wondering about the Sapphire 7970 3Gb vs the GTX 670 with 2Gb.
BTW guys, I appreciate all your responses.
bob
m
0
l
November 11, 2012 4:21:23 PM

geofelt said:
I really don't think you will need a 7970 or GTX680 class graphics card.

I might suggest a more modest 7950 or GTX670.
I happen to prefer the Nvidia drivers and suggest the EVGA GTX670 FTW:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
1. EVGA has one of the better US based support organizations and an active support forum.
2. The FTW is a factory overclocked version and comes close to GTX680 performance.
3. EVGA has a 90 day upgrade trade-in program so if you trade up, they credit you with the full purchase price of your old card.
4. I like the direct exhaust cooler which gets hot air out of your case directly.
5. If you buy from Newegg, they will credit you with the difference in price if the price drops anywhere before Christmas.

As a suggestion for a game you might like, look at civilization IV with the Beyond the Sword expansion pack:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA0ZG...

The game has high replayability, I have been playing it for years.
It is much better than Civilization V


Hi, geo
Perhaps you've seen my post about the "more info" line.
This game I'm playing has a ton of custom stuff available online that I would really like to use. I am using only the in-game scenery and such as I assume the CS are causing the fps to drop based on forums dedicted to the game, itself. This is the reason I'm seriously considering the 7970. It seems my GPU is a big part of the problem. I'm running well over the recommended harware right now. The abilty to ride the coasters that I design myself and walk through the parks from a 1st person POV is highly addictive and I've seen many "creations" by others that I am amaxed by. Most people play without "peeps" in order to keep the frame rates up but I find it much more fun to have them around.
Anyway, knowing what I now know about you I'm curious to know how you've come to be as proficient as you are. There were no computers in school when I grew up. This is stil all new to me. But I am enjoying the experience. When I added the extra RAM and the GPU to my old emachines I realized I was capable of building my own system. I kind up jumped in without looking but now that I'm here I need to start swimming. I have many questions if you're game.? I don't want to impose on your mentoring of others, however.
Thanks again for responding. It's nice to talk to someone who answers simply and explains why they say what they say.
Later?
bob
m
0
l
November 11, 2012 4:22:54 PM

At the moment the 7970 is the better card its not really a fair comparison in my mind because its the flagship card for the AMD side of things. So it truly depends you can save a little and get the 670 which is all you will really need for what you are doing or you can get the 7970 which is the best single gpu card out at the moment.

Thats the Vapor-X version
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

or the evga card Geo left you I really like evga for there customer support maybe not the best card in terms of cooling but great reliable card and reliable company.
m
0
l
November 11, 2012 4:27:51 PM

stairbob said:
Holy Cow, geo!
I just discovered what the "more information" line was about. We're of the same ilk.
Now I understand why we both enjoy the strategy type games as much. So now I'll heed your advice a bit more. I do not know how to post a link to another site ie: newegg parts but am still wondering about the Sapphire 7970 3Gb vs the GTX 670 with 2Gb.
BTW guys, I appreciate all your responses.
bob


To include a link, like to newegg, go to the web page and put the cursor on the line that shows the web address.
Right click,and the line will highlight in blue.
select copy.
Then in your post at the appropriate place click paste and you should see the link. Keep the link separated from other text so it does not get confused.

The amount of vram included in a graphics card will be appropriate to the card. More than the stock amount is mostly marketing,
and comes at increased cost.
Here is one study:
http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Video-Card-Pe...

You will not be able to tell the difference in performance between a 7950/7970 and a GTX670/GTX680 without a synthetic benchmark. You will be pleased with any of them.
The coolers like that on the sapphire 7970 do a good job of cooling the card when tested in an open testbed.
But, in a case, all that hot air will mostly stay in the case where case cooling has to get it out of the case. In the mean time, it heats up the air going into the cpu cooler as well as the gpu cooler, making them hotter.
Not so good. It really is not a biggie because you can run the case fans faster to get better cooling. That comes at the expense of noise.

To see how many frames per second you are getting now, install a free program called FRAPS. It will display the current FPS in a small box in a corner of your display.
You should see 30 for ok gameplay. 60 is about as good as it gets because most lcd monitors only refresh at 60hz anyway.
Pay attention to the lows, or minimum rates since they can be more distracting.
m
0
l
November 11, 2012 4:40:49 PM

I retired from IBM some years ago, like when the original IBM PC was launched. But I mostly dealt with large mainframes.
I bought a IBM PC using an employee discount and bought civilization 2. I loved that game, and still play it.
So much so that I built a 32 bit pc that is capable of running an old 16 bit program(64 bit won't)
Eventually, I decided to build myself using some parts from previous IBM desktop PC's.
Over the years, I found that I could justify a new build by giving my kids the old PC. Now, I have a problem because they don't need/want any upgrades. Since I have the time and the funds, I build new ones anyway and sell the old parts on e-bay.

And, yes... I suck at first person shooters. Sometimes, they come bundled with a graphics card, so I try them.
m
0
l
November 11, 2012 4:44:02 PM

bigshootr8 said:
At the moment the 7970 is the better card its not really a fair comparison in my mind because its the flagship card for the AMD side of things. So it truly depends you can save a little and get the 670 which is all you will really need for what you are doing or you can get the 7970 which is the best single gpu card out at the moment.

Thats the Vapor-X version
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

or the evga card Geo left you I really like evga for there customer support maybe not the best card in terms of cooling but great reliable card and reliable company.




Thanks bigshootr8
Why this card over this one? http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=E...


m
0
l
November 11, 2012 4:58:49 PM

stairbob said:
Thanks bigshootr8
Why this card over this one? http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=E...


The more expensive GHZ version is the same card with a factory overclock.

It used to be that you could get lucky and do the overclocking yourself to get some added performance.
We all like something for nothing.
But the card vendors got wise to this, and now bin their chis.
They select the best samples, and apply a factory overclock to them so they can sell them for more.

You probably get the performance you pay for either way.

m
0
l
November 11, 2012 5:00:22 PM

geofelt said:
To include a link, like to newegg, go to the web page and put the cursor on the line that shows the web address.
Right click,and the line will highlight in blue.
select copy.
Then in your post at the appropriate place click paste and you should see the link. Keep the link separated from other text so it does not get confused.

The amount of vram included in a graphics card will be appropriate to the card. More than the stock amount is mostly marketing,
and comes at increased cost.
Here is one study:
http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Video-Card-Pe...

You will not be able to tell the difference in performance between a 7950/7970 and a GTX670/GTX680 without a synthetic benchmark. You will be pleased with any of them.
The coolers like that on the sapphire 7970 do a good job of cooling the card when tested in an open testbed.
But, in a case, all that hot air will mostly stay in the case where case cooling has to get it out of the case. In the mean time, it heats up the air going into the cpu cooler as well as the gpu cooler, making them hotter.
Not so good. It really is not a biggie because you can run the case fans faster to get better cooling. That comes at the expense of noise.

To see how many frames per second you are getting now, install a free program called FRAPS. It will display the current FPS in a small box in a corner of your display.
You should see 30 for ok gameplay. 60 is about as good as it gets because most lcd monitors only refresh at 60hz anyway.
Pay attention to the lows, or minimum rates since they can be more distracting.


There is a cheat code in my game to check fps and I use it constantly. It starts on an empty park at 99 fps. after filiing the place it drops considerably until it becomes impossible to play without huge amounts of lag and stutter.
I will admit to running my computer for 6 mos. now without the side cover. Aside from the obvious neccessity of regular cleaning there have been no noticable problems. Is this a bad thing/why? I am planning to purchase a couple more case fans if needed. I have 120mm in front and the same in back now.
What do you think about this card? http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=E...
If it is better and only 10$ more......
bob
m
0
l
November 11, 2012 5:04:04 PM

geofelt said:
The more expensive GHZ version is the same card with a factory overclock.

It used to be that you could get lucky and do the overclocking yourself to get some added performance.
We all like something for nothing.
But the card vendors got wise to this, and now bin their chis.
They select the best samples, and apply a factory overclock to them so they can sell them for more.

You probably get the performance you pay for either way.



At this level do I need the overclocked card? Or is it just that I like the sound of 399 better than over 4 bills?
m
0
l
November 11, 2012 5:28:49 PM

stairbob said:
There is a cheat code in my game to check fps and I use it constantly. It starts on an empty park at 99 fps. after filiing the place it drops considerably until it becomes impossible to play without huge amounts of lag and stutter.
I will admit to running my computer for 6 mos. now without the side cover. Aside from the obvious neccessity of regular cleaning there have been no noticable problems. Is this a bad thing/why? I am planning to purchase a couple more case fans if needed. I have 120mm in front and the same in back now.
What do you think about this card? http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=E...
If it is better and only 10$ more......
bob


Your link takes me to two cards. Which one do you mean?

If you have aproblem with a game, first check to see if there are some updates to it.
There could be a problem with the fps cheat code, for instance. It might be recording the fps numbers and filling up ram which would cause lots of issues.

I might presume that you have your nvidia driver up to date.

Try running using fraps to measure.

I really doubt that your game is very gpu intensive.
I would try to find the problem first before fixing a problem that you might not have.

The haf cases are good for cooling. If you have at least two 120mm intake fans, or the equivalent in output, there should be sufficient airflow to get the heat out of the case. If taking the sides off makes a big difference, then, yes, you have a case cooling issue.
Verify that the fans are mounted to generate airflow in the same direction. Dangle a tissue in front of each to verify.
m
0
l
November 11, 2012 6:42:05 PM

I think he means the normal 7970 overclocked version versus the 7970 ghz edition with the vapor-x cooler. The reason why I like the 7970 ghz edition with the cooler is because the card is actually very quiet I've done youtube searches as well read reviews where the card is near dead silent. And also because its not a standard cooler yes it has fan yes it has heat pipes but it also has a vapor chamber. I am one that likes a extreme cooler with quiet temps but you may have different priorities.

And I agree with geo that you will more then likely not see any difference unless you run benchmarks with 7950/70 and 670/80 cards.
m
0
l
November 11, 2012 8:38:12 PM

geofelt said:
Your link takes me to two cards. Which one do you mean?

If you have aproblem with a game, first check to see if there are some updates to it.
There could be a problem with the fps cheat code, for instance. It might be recording the fps numbers and filling up ram which would cause lots of issues.

I might presume that you have your nvidia driver up to date.

Try running using fraps to measure.

I really doubt that your game is very gpu intensive.
I would try to find the problem first before fixing a problem that you might not have.

The haf cases are good for cooling. If you have at least two 120mm intake fans, or the equivalent in output, there should be sufficient airflow to get the heat out of the case. If taking the sides off makes a big difference, then, yes, you have a case cooling issue.
Verify that the fans are mounted to generate airflow in the same direction. Dangle a tissue in front of each to verify.


I do not have the new hardware put together yet. I put the whole thing together in an old case and the PSU would not power on. I returned the unit, purchased the haf and am waiting til I get the new PSU and GPU to begin again.
The case with the open side is what I'm using now (eMachines T6410) I took the side of the case off when I installed the 8400gs since it seemed warm to the touch and I was concerned. I doubt very much if it needs to be off. It's just been easier to leave it.

I have updated the nvidia driver thrice now and every time it has improved the performance. However,.....this game is very gpu, cpu, and ram intensive. People on the RCT3 specific forums are constantly complaining about an old game that still cannot be played at max even with the newest hardware. The game has to render whatever my imagination tells it to. There is very little standard stuff to reference when I create on my own. I CAN play it at maximum settings for a short time (w/the eMach) in a park that is nothing but flat grass and have seen what it looks like at it's best. I want to play it more realistically. Lots of people, lots of coasters, etc. My system cannot handle any more ram. It's maxed out, hardware-wise. The game can handle more. I don't think it's recording the fps numbers since the same problem occurs without the fps display. One thing....when I pause the game the fps jumps by 20-30 fps and according to Frontier Games this is indicative of a gpu bottleneck. If I buy the 7970 at least I'll have put up a good fight.

Sorry about the link. Thanks for explaining how to do that, btw. I am talking about the one on top w/boost for 399$ If this is more powerful and costs only 10$ more than the GTX 670 I'd rather spend the money, yes? As you mentioned earlier I'd always wonder....If I become more hardcore in the future at least I'll be prepared:)  A review here at Tom's led me to the 7970 as far as hierarchy goes and I've been thinking for several days about buying one. The only reason I'm considering it over the GTX 680 is the cost. They seem to be equal players with at least a 50$ price differential. Here's another 7970 I just found at amaz. http://www.amazon.com/Gigabyte-Radeon-Mini-Displayport-...

As far as fixing a problem I might not have, that kind of became a moot point when I hit the order button at amaz. Now that it's here, I want to finish what I started with the best possible parts;) My budget has increased, yes, but it's only money, right? Your advice is much appreciated, sir and I thank you for all your time.
bob
m
0
l
November 11, 2012 8:42:43 PM

bigshootr8 said:
I think he means the normal 7970 overclocked version versus the 7970 ghz edition with the vapor-x cooler. The reason why I like the 7970 ghz edition with the cooler is because the card is actually very quiet I've done youtube searches as well read reviews where the card is near dead silent. And also because its not a standard cooler yes it has fan yes it has heat pipes but it also has a vapor chamber. I am one that likes a extreme cooler with quiet temps but you may have different priorities.

And I agree with geo that you will more then likely not see any difference unless you run benchmarks with 7950/70 and 670/80 cards.


Thanks big
My computer is so noisy now I doubt anything would be worse. When I put the new rig together it can only get quieter.
I'm grateful for your time. You and geo seem to agree for the most part and this is a good thing for me.
bob
m
0
l
November 11, 2012 9:04:06 PM

I did a little research for you.
(google is your friend)
It appears that RCT3 can be very cpu bound. Particularly with a big park, and at night time.
Apparently, it uses only one thread. Most modern games can use two, or possibly 3 cores.
I don't know what your current cpu is, but the 3570K with a nice overclock is about the best you can do.
The 3770K will not be helpful because the hyperthreads will not really be used.

As to graphics, I could not find one for RCT3. I suppose they exist.
Check out some RCT3 forums, but I doubt that you would benefit from a $400 graphics card.
Also, some games do much better with Nvidia, and vice versa.
It might pay you to see if you can find out if there is a big difference. Check the RCT3 forums.
m
0
l
November 12, 2012 1:21:36 AM

geofelt said:
I did a little research for you.
(google is your friend)
It appears that RCT3 can be very cpu bound. Particularly with a big park, and at night time.
Apparently, it uses only one thread. Most modern games can use two, or possibly 3 cores.
I don't know what your current cpu is, but the 3570K with a nice overclock is about the best you can do.
The 3770K will not be helpful because the hyperthreads will not really be used.

As to graphics, I could not find one for RCT3. I suppose they exist.
Check out some RCT3 forums, but I doubt that you would benefit from a $400 graphics card.
Also, some games do much better with Nvidia, and vice versa.
It might pay you to see if you can find out if there is a big difference. Check the RCT3 forums.


Thanks geo
It is all of those things. I have been to MANY forums, believe me. You mentioned the HD 4000 in your first post. It was and now is again my intent to fire this up with the on-board graphics. All this talk about the "best" cards got me too excited. The 7970 will still be there. Might even be cheaper over the holidays. Thanks again. I'm off to buy the SeaSonic and the ssd.
bob
m
0
l
November 12, 2012 3:13:35 AM

Yea I think for RCT3 you may be okay on the integrated are there any games you want to play in the future that may warrant a high end 300-400 dollar card?
m
0
l
November 12, 2012 3:43:22 AM

bigshootr8 said:
Yea I think for RCT3 you may be okay on the integrated are there any games you want to play in the future that may warrant a high end 300-400 dollar card?


Hey big

I'm pretty sure I'll want a card for the RCT3 eventually.....maybe not. I want to be able to max out all the detail levels and the AA, turn on all the reflections in the water and run the imposter distance up to 1500 (maximum) and play that way all the time. It looks fantastic like that, especially when you're in 1st person POV and walking around the park you've created. I'll wait on the GPU til I've seen it w/integrated.

As far as other games, yes. I don't know which they might be but I've seen some amazing scenes from games that I'd love to try. I suck at FPShooters and prefer the RPG and strategy games but still want a card that will handle anything. I can afford the 7970 without a problem, just can't decide which one.....so why not get it? yes?
I plan to OC the 3570 sometime soon and could figure out how to OC the std. 7970 I think. For some reason the price of the Sapph. and the Gigbyt. cards appeal to me. Something about having a top of the line card does, too.

I just ordered the SeaSonic 650w that geo recom. along with a Samsung 126/8? SSD 5 min. ago. I'm still up in the air about where to go for the Win 7 OS. If you have any thoughts I'd love to hear them.

I really appreciate you guys hanging in and helping me out. I know just enough to get myself in trouble sometimes and it's good to know where to ask for help.

bob

m
0
l
November 12, 2012 12:46:26 PM

You will have a better idea after you build and use just the integrated graphics.

You will want to apply a conservative OC to the 3570K.
That is what the "K" was designed for.
Do not use the motherboard apps to do the job; they tend to be overly agressive.
Just gradually raise the multiplier in the bios from the stock 34 to 40-43, or when the temperature gets too high.
Leave the voltage alone on auto, and leave the ram knobs alone too. Ram speed is unimportant.
Use prime95 to generate a load on the cpu for testing.
Use realtemp to monitor the temperature.
Once the temperature reaches peak for 20 minutes or so, you can consider your oc as stable.

I do not think that integrated graphics will satisfy you for the long term.
But, neither do I know what will.
My suggestion is to buy a very good upper midrange card and see how you do.

Look at the EVGA GTX660ti. It will perform very well.
Buy an EVGA card. They offer a 90 day full trade in on a better card if you feel you want more.
Go to their web site for details.
m
0
l
November 12, 2012 5:01:53 PM

I'm unsure about the cpu overclocking with cpu boost is there really a need to go in and make voltage changes manually my cpu sits at 1.5 GHZ but when I get into something like a game I will hit 4.0 GHZ with my cpu boost preset from my motherboard.

Well the only drawback from there step it up program from evga is you typically have to purchase there extended warranty on the card before they would let you step up 15 dollars. So you have 15 dollars plus shipping plus difference of card. But still not something many manufactures leave you the option of doing.
m
0
l
November 12, 2012 5:13:41 PM

bigshootr8 said:
I'm unsure about the cpu overclocking with cpu boost is there really a need to go in and make voltage changes manually my cpu sits at 1.5 GHZ but when I get into something like a game I will hit 4.0 GHZ with my cpu boost preset from my motherboard.

Well the only drawback from there step it up program from evga is you typically have to purchase there extended warranty on the card before they would let you step up 15 dollars. So you have 15 dollars plus shipping plus difference of card. But still not something many manufactures leave you the option of doing.


Boost may apply to a single core that is heavily loaded. If all 4 cores are loaded, it will be less.
Speedstep will reduce the multiplier from 34 to 16 when there is little load, or idle. That is normal and good.
If you OC, there is no need to increase voltages, so long as you do not try to oc to the limits. 4.3 might be about right.

Definitely, read the mice type on the EVGA step-up program.
m
0
l
November 12, 2012 11:52:36 PM

Hi Guys!

You're both still talking.....without me! Cool

So.....both the SSD and the PSu have shipped and I am anxiously awaiting delivery now. I'm working this week so I'll be less regular. However, I just made enough for the 7970:) 

Thanks for the info about the OCing, geo. It has been my intent to run about 4.3 from the get go. I want to set it up so that it will only run faster when neccesary. That sounds like what you've described. I've seen several vids on how to do it as well but you've convinced me that you know what you're talking about so I'll be listening intently. Would it behoove me to order another fan for the Hyper 212 (push/pull)

Here are two links to Win 7. I'm confused about exactly what I need. Are these both the same?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
http://www.amazon.com/Windows-Premium-64bit-System-Buil...

Geo, if I can afford the GTX 680 or the 7970 why shouldn't I buy one or the other? If I decide to try something like Witcher2 or some other game that's GPU intensive won't I wish I had one then? It certainly won't hurt me in RCT3, right? And the 3570k can handle it, yes? After all, you're driving one. This is not a money issue as much as it is looking for the best deal on the best card. I build custom stairs for a living and do pretty well when I'm working.

Where exactly did you find the info on RCT3? It is exactly as you desribed and I've been to at least a dozen different forums including Frontier Developments where I had a conversation with the senior producer of the game. Most of the game sites are dedicated to all the custom scenery and rides that are available for download and few people take the time to answer hardware questions. The tech sites I've visited are no longer interested in discussing such an old game (04 release) Everyone just says "this is what you need to run this game...... I've never played it but I'm sure this will work" Hah! They're more intersted in games that consist of killing things or beating people up:)  (bunch of kids. lol)

One other question is about how to install the SSD. ("google is my friend", I know) I want this for my OS and perhaps RCT3 only, yes? My HDD is 2TB and I guess I'll use that only for storage and such. This part is new to me and I'm learning as I go. The hdd in this old thing is only 128Gb and it's not close to being full. Maybe I don't need to install the Seagate.? At some point I hope to do some 3D modeling and I plan to design some parks to make available online as well. I can store them on the HDD, right? I'm thinking all my saved games are contributing to the slowness right now.

If you guys could help me with the OS I'd be grateful. I need to get that ordered real soon. I'll check back soon.

bob






m
0
l
November 13, 2012 12:04:18 AM

In terms of your SSD install you would install the operating system to it and then when you install programs typically you will change the directory to install on the mechanical drive unless you feel you want to use some of that prime real estate on the SSD.

I'm looking at the system requirements on Roller Coaster Tycoon 3 and with any modern card you would run into probably tearing I'm sure because of how over powered your cards are 680/7970

http://www.game-debate.com/games/index.php?g_id=1772&ga...

witcher 2 a little more demanding but not by much
http://www.game-debate.com/games/index.php?g_id=860&gam...

m
0
l
November 13, 2012 12:06:59 AM

If you guys have some spare time you might enjoy looking at this. It's not an amusement park but it's pretty spectacular.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjOYhFpYTo0

This was created with RCT3 Platinum and it's part of the reason I want to be able to play with all the graphics turned up.
m
0
l
November 13, 2012 12:08:46 AM

bigshootr8 said:
In terms of your SSD install you would install the operating system to it and then when you install programs typically you will change the directory to install on the mechanical drive unless you feel you want to use some of that prime real estate on the SSD.

I'm looking at the system requirements on Roller Coaster Tycoon 3 and with any modern card you would run into probably tearing I'm sure because of how over powered your cards are 680/7970

http://www.game-debate.com/games/index.php?g_id=1772&ga...

witcher 2 a little more demanding but not by much
http://www.game-debate.com/games/index.php?g_id=860&gam...


What's tearing?
m
0
l
November 13, 2012 12:09:24 AM

I've got gamedebate bookmarked but haven't checked with those two cards. I'm going there now. Be right back:) 

btw, it's Rollercoaster Tycoon 3 Platinum
m
0
l
November 13, 2012 12:30:30 AM

there is an example typically people sometimes help the situation by turning on vsync or adapative vysnc which is a nvidia thing which is setup so that that you hold a steady 60fps but wont go over.



I'm just making a point that any modern card that's out now would be overwhelmed by any modern card.

And even in a single threaded environment any of the modern cpu's would thrash that game/s.
m
0
l
November 13, 2012 2:31:01 AM

bigshootr8 said:
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/6434/wowscrnshot051907201239db0.jpg there is an example typically people sometimes help the situation by turning on vsync or adapative vysnc which is a nvidia thing which is setup so that that you hold a steady 60fps but wont go over.

http://www.motherboards.org/sites/default/files/adaptivevsync.jpg

I'm just making a point that any modern card that's out now would be overwhelmed by any modern card.

And even in a single threaded environment any of the modern cpu's would thrash that game/s.

So you're suggesting I could, in a sense, underclock an nvidia card so as not to get tearing. Then I could use it without the vsync whenever I needed something with more GPS load.?
m
0
l
November 13, 2012 2:56:05 AM

stairbob said:
So you're suggesting I could, in a sense, underclock an nvidia card so as not to get tearing. Then I could use it without the vsync whenever I needed something with more GPS load.?


Baloney.
Run your game, and enjoy at full speed.
If you have a problem, which I doubt, then fix it.
Display anomalies usually come from a problem with the game code or the graphics driver.
It should not happen with a strong card.
m
0
l
November 13, 2012 3:00:22 AM

not underclock. The purpose of vsync and adapative vsync is to have your card go full blast but when it reaches a certain threshold it holds it back. Say for example you were playing a 10 year old game and you were getting idk 300 frames per second there is a good chance that are that the game couldn't keep up with the amount of speed and horsepower being pushed into the game but with things like vsync and adaptive vsync you could hold back the tearing. Which that graph shows.
So what am I trying to tell you is that you could set that for some of the older games like roller coaster tycoons and not have to deal with a un pleasent experience because your card over powers it. That is if you are set on the most current cards because as you can see by the system requirements you would be far exceeding them.

Nvidia

Recommended for Rooler Coaster 3 was the geforce 4 series, 5 series, 6 series, 7 series, 8 series, 9 series, 200 series, 400 series, 500 series, 600 series.

See how many generations have gone by since the game you have was out?
m
0
l
November 13, 2012 3:00:38 AM

and I'm not trying to confuse you. I'm just trying to inform you.
m
0
l
November 13, 2012 3:48:09 AM

geofelt said:
Baloney.
Run your game, and enjoy at full speed.
If you have a problem, which I doubt, then fix it.
Display anomalies usually come from a problem with the game code or the graphics driver.
It should not happen with a strong card.

I seem to have lost the train, here. Hi geo. So you think I should get the 680? or what are you saying? I'm just trying to respond to big when he makes a suggestion. I still haven't bought a card yet. You say nvidia. I agree.
You suggest the 660. I want the 680. I may not need it,.....but I want it. Why not buy the top card. Then there's no wondering what might have been .......
b
m
0
l
November 13, 2012 3:56:46 AM

I'm curious what Geo thinks as well. I tend to go with Nvidia I have had AMD cards the 4770 and the 5770 which I really liked. For me i think its finding the card that will suit your needs for now and some time after you buy the card. SO looking down the pike what kind of games would you like to play are you someone that is going to go out and play some of the more modern games your starcraft games your maybe sim city games civilization whatever It may be. And gauging what kind of performance you will need to drive those games. Based on the games you play I think a middle of the road card like a gtx660 is good or even a 670 if you wanted something higher. I don't see the need to spend a 100 dollars beyond the 670 to get the flagship card which isn't all that much faster then the 670.
m
0
l
November 13, 2012 1:26:13 PM

stairbob said:
I seem to have lost the train, here. Hi geo. So you think I should get the 680? or what are you saying? I'm just trying to respond to big when he makes a suggestion. I still haven't bought a card yet. You say nvidia. I agree.
You suggest the 660. I want the 680. I may not need it,.....but I want it. Why not buy the top card. Then there's no wondering what might have been .......
b


....but I want it
That is the operative statement.
My recommendation is to go ahead and buy yourself a good GTX680.
You have the budget to do it, so do it.

I was in the same situation back when the GTX680 was first launched.
I ordered one immediately to replace a GTX580.
Not that I really needed a GTX680, and I paid top dollar for it.
I was pleased when I got delivery and others had to wait months for supply to catch up.
I find that a high price hurts for only a little while. Dissatisfaction lingers much longer.
If you do not get the best that you can afford, then you will always be a little bit dissatisfied.

As to the amd 7970, I happen to be more comfortable with Nvidia.
I had a 5850 which was top of the line, way back when. It worked ok, but I was never really comfortable with how the driver updates came out and installed.
No specific reason, and no doubt it is not a big issue today.

m
0
l
November 13, 2012 2:22:12 PM

HI guys
I'm off to work again but just checked for 680's. whew! there are way too many choices .....Do you see my OS post? Be back later.
bob
m
0
l
November 13, 2012 5:21:24 PM

Well I think Geo made the recommendation for a EVGA card if I'm not mistaken. So perhaps something like this.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

or if you want a non reference card maybe this

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

and before someone tells me the non reference card is louder here is the real facts

DIRECTCU II
ASUS utilizes copper heatpipes in direct contact with the GPU surface heat is transported and dissipated efficiently. DirectCU II is 20% cooler and 14dB quieter than reference – making it a low-noise high-performance graphics card.
m
0
l
November 14, 2012 2:18:14 PM

bigshootr8 said:
Well I think Geo made the recommendation for a EVGA card if I'm not mistaken. So perhaps something like this.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

or if you want a non reference card maybe this

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

and before someone tells me the non reference card is louder here is the real facts

DIRECTCU II
ASUS utilizes copper heatpipes in direct contact with the GPU surface heat is transported and dissipated efficiently. DirectCU II is 20% cooler and 14dB quieter than reference – making it a low-noise high-performance graphics card.

The issue of noise is not a big one for me. I'm still undecided on a graphics card though.

My biggest question right now is which Operating system to install. There are 2 types as I can see. It seems as though the builders packs do not offer any MS support and become proprietary and make it difficult to add/change hardware. Would you recommend the transferable version or can I run the non-transferable? No one has addressed this yet and my parts are showing up sometime today. I'm willing to spend the extra money but if it's not neccessary,......?
bob
m
0
l
November 14, 2012 5:25:13 PM

I would recommend a builders copy a OEM. I don't really see any advantage of going with a retail copy. You can use the CD the same way as you would with the retail version. If you were to change hardware it would still work hard drives, graphic cards, motherboards, you name it it still will work.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

And like I said before I guess its really just gauging where you are in terms of games if you want to buy something just to fit the kind of games you play which would probably be fine with something like a gtx660 or if want the top tier cards 680/7970
m
0
l
November 14, 2012 7:43:28 PM

stairbob said:
The issue of noise is not a big one for me. I'm still undecided on a graphics card though.

My biggest question right now is which Operating system to install. There are 2 types as I can see. It seems as though the builders packs do not offer any MS support and become proprietary and make it difficult to add/change hardware. Would you recommend the transferable version or can I run the non-transferable? No one has addressed this yet and my parts are showing up sometime today. I'm willing to spend the extra money but if it's not neccessary,......?
bob

The OEM version is cheaper. And is probably what you want.
It allows you to change anything except the motherboard.
Even that can be done if you need to replace a defective motherboard. MS is very lenient on this so long as the os will be used on only one pc.
No ms support, true, but this forum is just as good. You DO get full update support, as you do with any legitimate windows license.
You must pick 32 bit, or 64 bit dvd.

The retail version gives you ms support for 90 days, and can be freely transferred to a new motherboard.
It costs 2x oem.

There is a windows upgrade package which costs the same as oem. If you have a previous version of windows, you qualify. In theory, it must be used to upgrade a previous OS, but in practice, you can do a clean install without another os present. It comes with both 32 and 64 bit dvd's It is considered as retail with full transportability.
If you need two copies, there is a family upgrade package that allows you 3 concurrent installs, and costs about $130.
m
0
l
!