Five Elemental Dragons Q

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Let's see if I've got this straight:

Did the 5ED come about *before* the Primordial War or *after*? It
seems I've read it both ways. The Terrestrials certainly think that
they were directly empowered by them. But another source says that
Gaia created the five to bring order to the chaos of the world after
the Primordials were gone...

Also, does Immaculate dogma hold that the five Dragon-Blooded they
revere as the Immaculate Dragons were literally the 5ED? Not
shapeshifted, but literally incarnated and born as mortals? Or were
they just very powerful, enlightened DBs? If the latter, then what do
the Immaculates know/think of the true Five Elemental Dragons? I
wonder what the Dragons think of their philosophy? Where are the Five,
anyway?

Lastly, not really a question, just another scary thought: We've seen
many Lesser Elemental Dragons in the roles of Consors and such; and
one Greater Elemental Dragon, in the form of the Kukla...Are there
other Greater Dragons about? And if the Five Elementals are truly the
epitome of elementals, then they dwarf the Kukla?? And the Celestial
Incarna are above even that?? Shite...

Dex,
thinking that the really scary thing is that well-equipped, powerful
Exalted can *still* win against the above...

 

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Hand-of-Omega wrote:

> Did the 5ED come about *before* the Primordial War or *after*? It
> seems I've read it both ways. The Terrestrials certainly think that
> they were directly empowered by them. But another source says that
> Gaia created the five to bring order to the chaos of the world after
> the Primordials were gone...

Definitely before.

Remember, the gods created the five great elementals using the Five
Elemental Dragons as models, so the Five Elemental Dragons predate the
big elementals.

And during the Primordial War, the Primordials shattered the five great
elementals, so the five great elementals must predate the banishment of
the Primordials.

Therefore, the Five Elemental Dragons predate the Primordial War.

> Also, does Immaculate dogma hold that the five Dragon-Blooded they
> revere as the Immaculate Dragons were literally the 5ED? Not
> shapeshifted, but literally incarnated and born as mortals? Or were
> they just very powerful, enlightened DBs? If the latter, then what do
> the Immaculates know/think of the true Five Elemental Dragons? I
> wonder what the Dragons think of their philosophy? Where are the Five,
> anyway?

Can't answer this one.

> Lastly, not really a question, just another scary thought: We've seen
> many Lesser Elemental Dragons in the roles of Consors and such; and
> one Greater Elemental Dragon, in the form of the Kukla...Are there
> other Greater Dragons about? And if the Five Elementals are truly the
> epitome of elementals, then they dwarf the Kukla?? And the Celestial
> Incarna are above even that?? Shite...

Yep.

> thinking that the really scary thing is that well-equipped, powerful
> Exalted can *still* win against the above...

Well, the Primordials are basically Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep. And the
Exalted killed them and took their stuff.

Azathoth is, of course, the Wyld.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

 

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On 26 Aug 2004 10:46:12 -0700, smilinglord@hotmail.com (Hand-of-Omega)
wrote:
>Did the 5ED come about *before* the Primordial War or *after*? It

IMHO, before. They are even said to be the fetishes of Gaia.

>seems I've read it both ways. The Terrestrials certainly think that
>they were directly empowered by them. But another source says that
>Gaia created the five to bring order to the chaos of the world after
>the Primordials were gone...

Where ?

>wonder what the Dragons think of their philosophy? Where are the Five,
>anyway?

Don't forget that the immaculate order is a false cult,
created so that Dragon Blooded have a "divine right" to rule.


Guillaume

 

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Opinions, purely...

Hand-of-Omega <smilinglord@hotmail.com> wrote:
: Also, does Immaculate dogma hold that the five Dragon-Blooded they
: revere as the Immaculate Dragons were literally the 5ED? Not
: shapeshifted, but literally incarnated and born as mortals?

The Dragons are separate from the Immaculate Dragons. Consider the
Immaculates as the saints, or as the avatars, or as the Buddhas of their
respective elements. Dragon-Blooded that achieved such a harmony with
their respective elements that they became the avatars of the Dragons.

As the Immaculate faith goes, the spiritual goal is to strive towards
the Dragons. Immaculates are the beacons, embodiments of each elements
given flesh. Role-models for the Dragon-Blooded, perfect examples of
elemental and spiritual purity to which they should strive for to
elevate their spirits.

Not too much different from any fictional or real life spiritual leaders
or prophets of the real world, really.

: If the latter, then what do the Immaculates know/think of the true
: Five Elemental Dragons?

The usual, most of it and then some extra, for flavor. What do you know
of the Wind? Or about the Fire? The Dragons are the highest of Gods,
pillars upon which the Creation itself has been built on.

: I wonder what the Dragons think of their philosophy? Where are the
: Five, anyway?

Too large for the Creation to hold them, they slumber (my recollection
from the books, might not be accurate as I'm too lazy to look for a
reference). Oh, and they quite likely don't, being too busy embodying
the elements they represent in Creation. Philosophies, worshippers,
cults and Ages come and go. Not too different from Gaia. Gaia is
Creation in Exalted, Gaia is Earth in W:tA (and W:tF?).

Then again, if ever your players start to get bothered by the
artificiality of the Immaculate faith, have a Dragon visit them and
remind them about the Immaculate Truth.

Immaculate order is something that can easily slip into an antagonistic
or lightly comical role when the players "know the truth" - and unjustly
so. When a great deal of the population of the Creation believe into
something, it might just be enough for the small gods to likewise
consider how it all really did go, after all.

: Dex,
: thinking that the really scary thing is that well-equipped, powerful
: Exalted can *still* win against the above...

Stuff of legends. Epic drama beyond dice pools. As an excercise to tune
on to the Solar Exalted power level I once imagined the most powerful
being imaginable in the Creation, and then the Solars that bested it.
And then what brought those Solars down to their knees..

Going over the top *is* part of the game, but only if you can squeeze an
excellent story out of it.

//T

 

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> > Lastly, not really a question, just another scary thought: We've seen
> > many Lesser Elemental Dragons in the roles of Consors and such; and
> > one Greater Elemental Dragon, in the form of the Kukla...Are there
> > other Greater Dragons about? And if the Five Elementals are truly the
> > epitome of elementals, then they dwarf the Kukla?? And the Celestial
> > Incarna are above even that?? Shite...
>
> Yep.
>
> > thinking that the really scary thing is that well-equipped, powerful
> > Exalted can *still* win against the above...

Remember this line about Solar Circle Sorcery - "A Sorcerer who commands the
Solar Circle of Sorcery can rival the fury of the Elemental Dragons
themselves" (Paraphrasing).

Not greater elementals. The elemental *dragons*.

CB

 

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Guillaume JAY <gjay_diespammer-die@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:<56csi01n62qkvphu7g1vfon18h3ies57sl@4ax.com>...
> On 26 Aug 2004 10:46:12 -0700, smilinglord@hotmail.com (Hand-of-Omega)
> wrote:
> >Did the 5ED come about *before* the Primordial War or *after*? It
>
> IMHO, before. They are even said to be the fetishes of Gaia.
>
> >seems I've read it both ways. The Terrestrials certainly think that
> >they were directly empowered by them. But another source says that
> >Gaia created the five to bring order to the chaos of the world after
> >the Primordials were gone...
>
> Where ?

OK, now that I've got my GoD back, I see what I misunderstood. I was
referring to the part in the Elementals chapter of GoD that says:
"...Gaia saw the chaos that war had wrought, and she released the Five
Elemental Dragons on Creation."
This sounded to me like she had created them at that point, but I
forgot the bit a page before which describes the gods basing the
original elementals on the 5ED...

....which, come to think of it, means that the 5ED are themselves NOT
elementals, just heavily elementally aspected Spirits/Gods. Hm.
>
Dex

 

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Intelligroove <kaiu_keiichi@nospam.com> wrote:
: Remember this line about Solar Circle Sorcery - "A Sorcerer who commands the
: Solar Circle of Sorcery can rival the fury of the Elemental Dragons
: themselves" (Paraphrasing).

: Not greater elementals. The elemental *dragons*.

Fluff. Game mechanics (eg. world reality) and the verbose descriptions
do not always meet in White Wolf games.

//T

 

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"Teemu T Vilen" <tvilen@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:cguskr$159$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
> Intelligroove <kaiu_keiichi@nospam.com> wrote:
> : Remember this line about Solar Circle Sorcery - "A Sorcerer who commands
the
> : Solar Circle of Sorcery can rival the fury of the Elemental Dragons
> : themselves" (Paraphrasing).
>
> : Not greater elementals. The elemental *dragons*.
>
> Fluff. Game mechanics (eg. world reality) and the verbose descriptions
> do not always meet in White Wolf games.
>
> //T

Well, it's what the descriptive material says. And, unlike the WoD games,
GCG has always been good about having game mechanics match in game fiction.

The Solar can kill gods. I feel that the descriptives use to describe Solar
Circle Sorcery are entirely accurate.

CB

 

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Intelligroove <kaiu_keiichi@nospam.com> wrote:
: "Teemu T Vilen" <tvilen@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
: news:cguskr$159$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
:> Intelligroove <kaiu_keiichi@nospam.com> wrote:
:> : Solar Circle of Sorcery can rival the fury of the Elemental Dragons
:> : themselves" (Paraphrasing).
:> : Not greater elementals. The elemental *dragons*.
:> Fluff. Game mechanics (eg. world reality) and the verbose descriptions
:> do not always meet in White Wolf games.
: Well, it's what the descriptive material says. And, unlike the WoD games,
: GCG has always been good about having game mechanics match in game fiction.
: The Solar can kill gods. I feel that the descriptives use to describe Solar
: Circle Sorcery are entirely accurate.

Ok, my reply was a bit too pessimistic when it comes to Exalted (as
opposed to the Old WoD (OWoD) titles).

In my experience, when Solar characters go up to 600 xp and beyond, the
mechanics - quite surprisingly - support the power level and they also
quite nicely convey the image of power of godlike proportions.

Even so, it's more a matter of storytelling and dramatics than mechanics
to go into encounters between Solars and gods, third circle demons and
elemental dragons. To go against beings in Exalted that are beyond
statistics (third circle demon description in GOD as a prime example) is
something that can't be handled with character statistics.

GCG has done a better job at that than most at WW, but even they've
managed to slip a lot of mechanics material through their Q&A (a lot of
DB/Immaculate Charms and Lunars book as whole as a good example).

//T