Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)
I thought I'd make this its own thread since the thread where I talked
about it seems to have gone largely unnoticed.
While Jess was still developing, he wrote a FAQ for the game. This FAQ
was reprinted, in mostly unaltered form, in the Mage Storytellers
Handbook, which was signed off on by Bill Bridges. Thus, both
developers are consistent about stuff in the FAQ. Page 11 of that book
talks about the coincidental vs vulgar issue. And the "answer" is . .
..
.. . . teleporting a gun into a coat is probably vulgar without
witnesses in a by-the-book game.
The standard is that a given event could have conceivably happened
without magic. One example in the FAQ of something that is actually
vulgaar is opening a door in one room and going to another room in an
entirely different building, even if nobody saw you. This is
functionally the same as the teleporting gun issue.
*However* (and this is where my opinion steps in), one problem that I
think comes up in these discussions is a failure to appraise the
character of consensual reality. This is why gun teleporting is only
*probably* vulgar. I submit these three points for consideration:
1) Consensual reality has a psychological dimension.
2) Its psychology needs things to make *narrative* sense.
3) What counts as making narrative sense is not a simple description
of the causal chain that makes things happen. Because the consensus is
psychologically human, it has additional subjective standards of what
makes a good narrative thread.
This leads to 2 more points:
4) The consensus accepts good stories and rejects lousy stories, based
on its tastes.
5) The ST plays the consensus as a character.
Yeah, this is a fancy way of saying its up to the ST, but there's more
to it. Certainly, coincidences still have to meet certain basic
requiremnents, but what counts as "could have happened without magic"
is something that is a matter of taste not only in specific games, but
in the setting itself. When the consensus is iunfused with a sense of
wonder and adventure, pulp cliffhanger stunts like "I had my gedget
all along!" will probably be coincidental. When reality is convinced
that the world is a depressing place of hard truths, then that might
not cut it.
M.
I thought I'd make this its own thread since the thread where I talked
about it seems to have gone largely unnoticed.
While Jess was still developing, he wrote a FAQ for the game. This FAQ
was reprinted, in mostly unaltered form, in the Mage Storytellers
Handbook, which was signed off on by Bill Bridges. Thus, both
developers are consistent about stuff in the FAQ. Page 11 of that book
talks about the coincidental vs vulgar issue. And the "answer" is . .
..
.. . . teleporting a gun into a coat is probably vulgar without
witnesses in a by-the-book game.
The standard is that a given event could have conceivably happened
without magic. One example in the FAQ of something that is actually
vulgaar is opening a door in one room and going to another room in an
entirely different building, even if nobody saw you. This is
functionally the same as the teleporting gun issue.
*However* (and this is where my opinion steps in), one problem that I
think comes up in these discussions is a failure to appraise the
character of consensual reality. This is why gun teleporting is only
*probably* vulgar. I submit these three points for consideration:
1) Consensual reality has a psychological dimension.
2) Its psychology needs things to make *narrative* sense.
3) What counts as making narrative sense is not a simple description
of the causal chain that makes things happen. Because the consensus is
psychologically human, it has additional subjective standards of what
makes a good narrative thread.
This leads to 2 more points:
4) The consensus accepts good stories and rejects lousy stories, based
on its tastes.
5) The ST plays the consensus as a character.
Yeah, this is a fancy way of saying its up to the ST, but there's more
to it. Certainly, coincidences still have to meet certain basic
requiremnents, but what counts as "could have happened without magic"
is something that is a matter of taste not only in specific games, but
in the setting itself. When the consensus is iunfused with a sense of
wonder and adventure, pulp cliffhanger stunts like "I had my gedget
all along!" will probably be coincidental. When reality is convinced
that the world is a depressing place of hard truths, then that might
not cut it.
M.
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