Paradox or Bust!!!

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Well, I missed the last outbreak of Mage debate, but not this time!
Same game as before, decide whether the following scenarios are
vulgar, with or without witnesses, or safely coincidental:

1) Jackie the globetrotting Akashic has mastered Do to the point where
he can leap 10 feet in the air and punch thru boulders. His latest
adventure lands him in hot water with a South American tribe whose
Awakened warrior class believe that drinking a broth of their sacred
herb allows them to leap 10 feet and punch thru boulders. As they
attack him (in full view of the Sleeper tribe members), he has little
choice but to go all out...

Vulgar or Coincidental??

2) Ziggy the Ecstatic is visiting his family for the holidays, and has
clearly gotten very high just to deal with the experience. While
everyone uncomfortably watches a brand-new episode of Jeopardy, his
senses slip outof Time, and he begins loudly giving the correct
answers before the host does...(well, the questions...*you know*!!)

Vulgar or Coincidental??

3) Sally the Progenitor feels sad for her neighbors whose dog was run
over by a car. Since their vet shop is closed, she volunteers to take
the dog to the medical lab they think she works at. The dog dies from
extreme trauma, but she clones it and brings it back after a while
none the worse for wear.

Vulgar or Coincidental??

4) A joint New World Order/Syndicate Amalgam travel to an undeveloped
region of Haiti to spread the Technocratic paradigm under the cover of
Social Workers and Psychologists. Despite the fact that the local
paradigm heavily favors Voudoun, they use Social Science and
Psychoanalysis as foci.

Vulgar or Coincidental??

5) A Cabal of Wu Lung is forced to intimidate a Kuei-jin's Scarlet
Screen Tong. The Sleeper gang members notice that the Cabal not only
are perfectly synchronized in action but also in word, making
declarations and verbally responding to their enemies as one (Mind).

Vulgar or Coincidental??

6) Amiko the Virtual Adept takes her bookbag and laptop into a cafe to
show off some upgrades to her friends. While they're talking, a
passing thief steals her bag and computer and runs out. Amiko shrugs,
reaches under the table, pulls her bookbag out from under it, takes
her laptop out of it and starts over again; meanwhile, the thief
quickly realizes that her has a gymbag of dirty laundry under his
arm...

Vulgar or Coincidental??

7) Bob the Nephandus has had it with his incompetent lackey.
Gesturing, he uses Forces to telekinetically lift off his feet,
strangle him and rip him apart limb from limb...from a yard away. This
occurs inthe food court of a mall. To the Sleeper witnesses, Bob
simply claims to have been "working out".

Paradox or Coincidence??

Thanks for playing!^__^

Dex,
coincidental, but only with witnesses...

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Hand-of-Omega wrote:

> Well, I missed the last outbreak of Mage debate, but not this time!
> Same game as before, decide whether the following scenarios are
> vulgar, with or without witnesses, or safely coincidental:

Okay.

> 1) Jackie the globetrotting Akashic has mastered Do to the point where
> he can leap 10 feet in the air and punch thru boulders. His latest
> adventure lands him in hot water with a South American tribe whose
> Awakened warrior class believe that drinking a broth of their sacred
> herb allows them to leap 10 feet and punch thru boulders. As they
> attack him (in full view of the Sleeper tribe members), he has little
> choice but to go all out...

> Vulgar or Coincidental??

Mu. Invalid responses given.

Neither. Do is a skill. If you can use Do to leap 10 feet and punch
through boulders, then good for you. No paradox because it's not vulgar
or coincidental because it's not sphere magic.

> 2) Ziggy the Ecstatic is visiting his family for the holidays, and has
> clearly gotten very high just to deal with the experience. While
> everyone uncomfortably watches a brand-new episode of Jeopardy, his
> senses slip outof Time, and he begins loudly giving the correct
> answers before the host does...(well, the questions...*you know*!!)

> Vulgar or Coincidental??

Enh.

Coincidental. Sensory magic is always coincidental for some reason.

However, the longer he does it, the more Unbelief is going to eat into
his successes. Pretty soon, he's going to be giving incorrect answers,
because his time sense will have dissolved in the face of the family's
Unbelief, and he'll just be on a regular hallucinogenic high where he
/thinks/ he can see the future.

> 3) Sally the Progenitor feels sad for her neighbors whose dog was run
> over by a car. Since their vet shop is closed, she volunteers to take
> the dog to the medical lab they think she works at. The dog dies from
> extreme trauma, but she clones it and brings it back after a while
> none the worse for wear.

> Vulgar or Coincidental??

The cloning itself is vulgar, unless he does it in his sanctum.

The family's reaction is going to be "disturbed," I think, but that's a
matter for roleplaying, not paradox.

> 4) A joint New World Order/Syndicate Amalgam travel to an undeveloped
> region of Haiti to spread the Technocratic paradigm under the cover of
> Social Workers and Psychologists. Despite the fact that the local
> paradigm heavily favors Voudoun, they use Social Science and
> Psychoanalysis as foci.

> Vulgar or Coincidental??

Local paradigm doesn't support those methods of magic, so vulgar.
Unless there's 100 or more UnAwakened research associates who do believe
in it, in which case it counts as coincidental as long as they're all
participating in the extended castings.

> 5) A Cabal of Wu Lung is forced to intimidate a Kuei-jin's Scarlet
> Screen Tong. The Sleeper gang members notice that the Cabal not only
> are perfectly synchronized in action but also in word, making
> declarations and verbally responding to their enemies as one (Mind).

> Vulgar or Coincidental??

Sensory effects are coincidental, and so is this. See above, re:
Unbelief, though. The Wu Lung had better pump a whole bunch of
successes into Duration to offset that.

> 6) Amiko the Virtual Adept takes her bookbag and laptop into a cafe to
> show off some upgrades to her friends. While they're talking, a
> passing thief steals her bag and computer and runs out. Amiko shrugs,
> reaches under the table, pulls her bookbag out from under it, takes
> her laptop out of it and starts over again; meanwhile, the thief
> quickly realizes that her has a gymbag of dirty laundry under his
> arm...

> Vulgar or Coincidental??

Apportations are vulgar. No witnesses, though, and a couple points of
paradox is probably worth not having to replace the contents of your
laptop's HD.

> 7) Bob the Nephandus has had it with his incompetent lackey.
> Gesturing, he uses Forces to telekinetically lift off his feet,
> strangle him and rip him apart limb from limb...from a yard away. This
> occurs inthe food court of a mall. To the Sleeper witnesses, Bob
> simply claims to have been "working out".

> Paradox or Coincidence??

Dude, that's called vulgar with witnesses.

> Thanks for playing!^__^

Welcome!
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Stephenls wrote:
>
> > Vulgar or Coincidental??
>
> Apportations are vulgar. No witnesses, though, and a couple points of
> paradox is probably worth not having to replace the contents of your
> laptop's HD.

This is the only one I disagree with. Apportation is of course vulgar if
you cause things to visibly float or teleport around, but if the effect
is that the guy grabbed the wrong bag and only thought he had the right
one - then it's coincidental.

This one is pretty firmly coincidental, if she had the laundry along, or
if someone else's laundry was conveniently nearby, or the absence of
laundry was not strongly established in the first place.

--
Elizabeth D. Brooks | kali.magdalene@comcast.net | US2002021724
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
AeonAdventure | "Dobby likes us!" -- Smeagol
-- http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/view/6856

 

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Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Julie d'Aubigny wrote:

> This is the only one I disagree with. Apportation is of course vulgar if
> you cause things to visibly float or teleport around, but if the effect
> is that the guy grabbed the wrong bag and only thought he had the right
> one - then it's coincidental.

> This one is pretty firmly coincidental, if she had the laundry along, or
> if someone else's laundry was conveniently nearby, or the absence of
> laundry was not strongly established in the first place.

I stand firmly on my No Blatant Apportations Or Creations Are
Coincidental ruling.

However, it'd be trivial to pull a taxicab argument and just say "Okay,
I use Correspondence 2 to get it back -- only it won't apport directly
from point A to point B; instead it'll just make its way back to me over
the course of the next five minutes or so through a series of
undefined-at-this-time coincidences."

Probably this would involve him losing it and multiple people mistaking
it for their bag and then dropping it, until it lands at my feet.

/That's/ coincidental magic.

If you wanted to do the gym bag thing, you'd have to prepare it
beforehand, probably as some sort of Mind effect where people who try to
steal from you get their brains slightly scrambled and mistakenly take
stuff that's worthless instead of what they wanted. That'd also be
coincidental magic. (This could also be a function of Intellectual
Entropy, but using Entropy 5 for personal security is a bit overboard.)
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

 

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Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

In the borning days of the third millennium, Hand-of-Omega wrote:
>Well, I missed the last outbreak of Mage debate, but not this time!
>Same game as before, decide whether the following scenarios are
>vulgar, with or without witnesses, or safely coincidental:
>
>1) Jackie the globetrotting Akashic has mastered Do to the point where
>he can leap 10 feet in the air and punch thru boulders. His latest
>adventure lands him in hot water with a South American tribe whose
>Awakened warrior class believe that drinking a broth of their sacred
>herb allows them to leap 10 feet and punch thru boulders. As they
>attack him (in full view of the Sleeper tribe members), he has little
>choice but to go all out...
>
>Vulgar or Coincidental??

That depends on whether you go with local consenuses or not. If you do,
and the Sleepers also believe this, it is coincidental.

>2) Ziggy the Ecstatic is visiting his family for the holidays, and has
>clearly gotten very high just to deal with the experience. While
>everyone uncomfortably watches a brand-new episode of Jeopardy, his
>senses slip outof Time, and he begins loudly giving the correct
>answers before the host does...(well, the questions...*you know*!!)
>
>Vulgar or Coincidental??

Coincidental. He could claim the show was taped and he saw it already.

>3) Sally the Progenitor feels sad for her neighbors whose dog was run
>over by a car. Since their vet shop is closed, she volunteers to take
>the dog to the medical lab they think she works at. The dog dies from
>extreme trauma, but she clones it and brings it back after a while
>none the worse for wear.
>
>Vulgar or Coincidental??

If she brings back a puppy after it gestates for the required amount of time,
coincidental. If she brings back a fully grown dog the next day, Vulgar.

>4) A joint New World Order/Syndicate Amalgam travel to an undeveloped
>region of Haiti to spread the Technocratic paradigm under the cover of
>Social Workers and Psychologists. Despite the fact that the local
>paradigm heavily favors Voudoun, they use Social Science and
>Psychoanalysis as foci.
>
>Vulgar or Coincidental??

Coincidental. Haitians are still aware of western sciences/methods. If the
same thing happens in an area that was completely isolated from the outside
world and you allow local consensuses, it would depend on the exact effect.

>5) A Cabal of Wu Lung is forced to intimidate a Kuei-jin's Scarlet
>Screen Tong. The Sleeper gang members notice that the Cabal not only
>are perfectly synchronized in action but also in word, making
>declarations and verbally responding to their enemies as one (Mind).
>
>Vulgar or Coincidental??

Coincidental. They are extremely well trained and brainwashed.

>6) Amiko the Virtual Adept takes her bookbag and laptop into a cafe to
>show off some upgrades to her friends. While they're talking, a
>passing thief steals her bag and computer and runs out. Amiko shrugs,
>reaches under the table, pulls her bookbag out from under it, takes
>her laptop out of it and starts over again; meanwhile, the thief
>quickly realizes that her has a gymbag of dirty laundry under his
>arm...
>
>Vulgar or Coincidental??

Vulgar. She didn't have a gym bag of dirty laundry with her to begin with.
If both bags had been sitting next to each other, and no one definitely saw
him take the backpack, this is coincidental.

>7) Bob the Nephandus has had it with his incompetent lackey.
>Gesturing, he uses Forces to telekinetically lift off his feet,
>strangle him and rip him apart limb from limb...from a yard away. This
>occurs inthe food court of a mall. To the Sleeper witnesses, Bob
>simply claims to have been "working out".

Coincidental. Mall food sometimes has that same effect on me.

--
Brian Merchant (remove 'remove' and 'example' from email)

Puritanism didn't keep the puritans from sinning, it just kept
them from enjoying it.
--Father Joe Breighner
Country Roads

 

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Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Stephenls wrote:
>
> Julie d'Aubigny wrote:
>
> > This is the only one I disagree with. Apportation is of course vulgar if
> > you cause things to visibly float or teleport around, but if the effect
> > is that the guy grabbed the wrong bag and only thought he had the right
> > one - then it's coincidental.
>
> > This one is pretty firmly coincidental, if she had the laundry along, or
> > if someone else's laundry was conveniently nearby, or the absence of
> > laundry was not strongly established in the first place.
>
> I stand firmly on my No Blatant Apportations Or Creations Are
> Coincidental ruling.

It's not a blatant apportation if it's coincidental, though. I know
that's circular, but surely you have experienced a situation wherein you
thought you picked up one thing and actually grabbed another.

> However, it'd be trivial to pull a taxicab argument and just say "Okay,
> I use Correspondence 2 to get it back -- only it won't apport directly
> from point A to point B; instead it'll just make its way back to me over
> the course of the next five minutes or so through a series of
> undefined-at-this-time coincidences."

But I think this is kind of restrictive as far as creativity goes. You
start by saying "effects that have X outcome are always vulgar" simply
as a matter of taste, which by itself already limits people who choose
certain spheres. Ideally, any effect listed or any effect you could
extrapolate from the spheres listed should be possible with coincidence
except for those that are specifically mentioned as always being vulgar
- such as "rip the man-body."

> Probably this would involve him losing it and multiple people mistaking
> it for their bag and then dropping it, until it lands at my feet.
>
> /That's/ coincidental magic.

No, that's coincidence that doesn't really need magic. You can use magic
to make it happen that way, but you're saying "this is the only
coincidence I'll allow," rather than letting it sit in a spectrum as it
rightfully should.

> If you wanted to do the gym bag thing, you'd have to prepare it
> beforehand, probably as some sort of Mind effect where people who try to
> steal from you get their brains slightly scrambled and mistakenly take
> stuff that's worthless instead of what they wanted. That'd also be
> coincidental magic. (This could also be a function of Intellectual
> Entropy, but using Entropy 5 for personal security is a bit overboard.)

Requiring this much advance preparation is also a bit overboard. Not to
say that no one ever would, but it punishes fast thinking on the
player's part - again, as a matter of taste, rather than a matter of
actual precedent.

I think the problem is that you see an effect that partakes of creation
or apportation and demand that it must *be* creation or apportation, and
therefore vulgar. This, I think, flies in the face of the intended
spirit of coincidental magic. The effect is what you want to happen -
they pick up the wrong bag, or they have a gun ready to draw. Whether
it's coincidental or vulgar is how you explain the process. You're
taking the possibility of explanation away, but only for a small set of
effects that, for whatever reason, you're unwilling to allow coincidence
for.

--
Elizabeth D. Brooks | kali.magdalene@comcast.net | US2002021724
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
AeonAdventure | "Dobby likes us!" -- Smeagol
-- http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/view/6856

 

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Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Hand-of-Omega wrote:

> 1) Jackie the globetrotting Akashic has mastered Do to the point where
> he can leap 10 feet in the air and punch thru boulders. His latest
> adventure lands him in hot water with a South American tribe whose
> Awakened warrior class believe that drinking a broth of their sacred
> herb allows them to leap 10 feet and punch thru boulders. As they
> attack him (in full view of the Sleeper tribe members), he has little
> choice but to go all out...
>
> Vulgar or Coincidental??

This is a tough call, but I'd probably say vulgar without. I'm not
terribly familiar with Akashics and Do, but I'm assuming that Akashics
who study Do recognize that it is a martial art which involves bending
reality per their paradigm. As such the Akashic knows he is bending
consensual reality when he invokes these powers.
The sleepers (presumably) believe, as their warrior caste does, that
drinking the proper herbs can allow this to happen. So, although
sleepers are present, they aren't witnesses. Some of the sleepers may
question how this stranger got a hold of their magic herbs and possibly
when he had time to drink the mixture, but the fact that he is
performing such feats clearly shows that he has consumed them (sure he did!)
That said, if I was running a particularly combat-heavy game and this
situation occurred, I would probably let it slide as coincidental, since
it is very close to the line, imho.

> 2) Ziggy the Ecstatic is visiting his family for the holidays, and has
> clearly gotten very high just to deal with the experience. While
> everyone uncomfortably watches a brand-new episode of Jeopardy, his
> senses slip outof Time, and he begins loudly giving the correct
> answers before the host does...(well, the questions...*you know*!!)
>
> Vulgar or Coincidental??

Vulgar with Witnesses. If no sleepers were around, he'd probably be
coincidental, but after he answers enough questions his family members
will begin to seriously ask themselves if what he's doing is possible.

> 3) Sally the Progenitor feels sad for her neighbors whose dog was run
> over by a car. Since their vet shop is closed, she volunteers to take
> the dog to the medical lab they think she works at. The dog dies from
> extreme trauma, but she clones it and brings it back after a while
> none the worse for wear.
>
> Vulgar or Coincidental??

Vulgar without. Cloning is part of her paradigm, but it's also part
which consensual reality doesn't agree with (not at the level she's
doing it, anyway.) She knows that the cloning process defies "normal"
reality, but no sleepers are present to witness the act since she does
it in her lab.

> 4) A joint New World Order/Syndicate Amalgam travel to an undeveloped
> region of Haiti to spread the Technocratic paradigm under the cover of
> Social Workers and Psychologists. Despite the fact that the local
> paradigm heavily favors Voudoun, they use Social Science and
> Psychoanalysis as foci.
>
> Vulgar or Coincidental??

Coincidental. I don't generally work with the local consensus
philosophy, except to determine whether or not witnesses are present
when the call is hard to make (see above.) Consensual Reality as a
whole believes in Psychology and social science. I'm assuming the
technocrats are spreading their paradigm subtly, as they always have.
The only thing that would tip it over to Vulgar without is if they were
employing crazy machines that hadn't been commonly accepted by reality
(ie: they themselves knew they were bending reality, rather than just
exposing people to a different way of life.)

> 5) A Cabal of Wu Lung is forced to intimidate a Kuei-jin's Scarlet
> Screen Tong. The Sleeper gang members notice that the Cabal not only
> are perfectly synchronized in action but also in word, making
> declarations and verbally responding to their enemies as one (Mind).
>
> Vulgar or Coincidental??

Coincidental. Being perfectly synchronized may be freaky to
onlookers, but it's not impossible. If the Cabal is also invoking some
sort of telepathy as part of this rote, then it would be vulgar without.
Simple coordination of action and general awareness of one's
surroundings would be part of their daily training, so the fact that
they move together is an extension of exhaustive training and speaking
as one a result of their all-surrounding awareness, developed through
meditation, again as part of training.

> 6) Amiko the Virtual Adept takes her bookbag and laptop into a cafe to
> show off some upgrades to her friends. While they're talking, a
> passing thief steals her bag and computer and runs out. Amiko shrugs,
> reaches under the table, pulls her bookbag out from under it, takes
> her laptop out of it and starts over again; meanwhile, the thief
> quickly realizes that her has a gymbag of dirty laundry under his
> arm...
>
> Vulgar or Coincidental??

Vulgar with witnesses. Amiko's friends would have seen the thief
take her bookbag as clearly as she did. That is was suddenly under the
table again is clearly impossible.
If the gymbag full of dirty laundry was also under their table, I
might push the rote down to Vulgar without (depending on her friends'
Wits + Alertness rolls.) Even if her friends didn't get a good look at
which bag the thief took, Amiko obviously did since she activated the
rote immediately. She knew she was bending reality by swapping the two
bags.
The two bags would also need to be virtually identical, otherwise the
thief would notice that he's all of a sudden holding a completely
different bag.

> 7) Bob the Nephandus has had it with his incompetent lackey.
> Gesturing, he uses Forces to telekinetically lift off his feet,
> strangle him and rip him apart limb from limb...from a yard away. This
> occurs inthe food court of a mall. To the Sleeper witnesses, Bob
> simply claims to have been "working out".
>
> Paradox or Coincidence??

Obviously vulgar with witnesses. I'm guessing this one was a gimmie
though.

 

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Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

On 27 Oct 2004 21:15:37 -0700, smilinglord@hotmail.com (Hand-of-Omega)
wrote:

>Well, I missed the last outbreak of Mage debate, but not this time!
>Same game as before, decide whether the following scenarios are
>vulgar, with or without witnesses, or safely coincidental:
>
>1) Jackie the globetrotting Akashic has mastered Do to the point where
>he can leap 10 feet in the air and punch thru boulders. His latest
>adventure lands him in hot water with a South American tribe whose
>Awakened warrior class believe that drinking a broth of their sacred
>herb allows them to leap 10 feet and punch thru boulders. As they
>attack him (in full view of the Sleeper tribe members), he has little
>choice but to go all out...
>
>Vulgar or Coincidental??

Coincidental. Assuming of course that the local Sleepers share that
belief.

>
>2) Ziggy the Ecstatic is visiting his family for the holidays, and has
>clearly gotten very high just to deal with the experience. While
>everyone uncomfortably watches a brand-new episode of Jeopardy, his
>senses slip outof Time, and he begins loudly giving the correct
>answers before the host does...(well, the questions...*you know*!!)
>
>Vulgar or Coincidental??

The first or two time he does it, it's Coincidental. It could be a
lucky guess. After that, the disbelief of those around him kicks him
out of the trance. If he goes back in, that's Vulgar.

>
>3) Sally the Progenitor feels sad for her neighbors whose dog was run
>over by a car. Since their vet shop is closed, she volunteers to take
>the dog to the medical lab they think she works at. The dog dies from
>extreme trauma, but she clones it and brings it back after a while
>none the worse for wear.
>
>Vulgar or Coincidental??

Coincidental. Everyone knows cloning is possible. Besides, she's
doing it in a sanctum.

>
>4) A joint New World Order/Syndicate Amalgam travel to an undeveloped
>region of Haiti to spread the Technocratic paradigm under the cover of
>Social Workers and Psychologists. Despite the fact that the local
>paradigm heavily favors Voudoun, they use Social Science and
>Psychoanalysis as foci.
>
>Vulgar or Coincidental??

As foci for what?

>
>5) A Cabal of Wu Lung is forced to intimidate a Kuei-jin's Scarlet
>Screen Tong. The Sleeper gang members notice that the Cabal not only
>are perfectly synchronized in action but also in word, making
>declarations and verbally responding to their enemies as one (Mind).
>
>Vulgar or Coincidental??

Coincidental.

>
>6) Amiko the Virtual Adept takes her bookbag and laptop into a cafe to
>show off some upgrades to her friends. While they're talking, a
>passing thief steals her bag and computer and runs out. Amiko shrugs,
>reaches under the table, pulls her bookbag out from under it, takes
>her laptop out of it and starts over again; meanwhile, the thief
>quickly realizes that her has a gymbag of dirty laundry under his
>arm...
>
>Vulgar or Coincidental??

What's the program to do that?

>
>7) Bob the Nephandus has had it with his incompetent lackey.
>Gesturing, he uses Forces to telekinetically lift off his feet,
>strangle him and rip him apart limb from limb...from a yard away. This
>occurs inthe food court of a mall. To the Sleeper witnesses, Bob
>simply claims to have been "working out".
>
>Paradox or Coincidence??

Vulgar.

 

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Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Stephenls <stephenls@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:<2ubfr2F24vjuqU1@uni-berlin.de>...
> Hand-of-Omega wrote:
>
> > 1) Jackie the globetrotting Akashic has mastered Do to the point where
> > he can leap 10 feet in the air and punch thru boulders. His latest
> > adventure lands him in hot water with a South American tribe whose
> > Awakened warrior class believe that drinking a broth of their sacred
> > herb allows them to leap 10 feet and punch thru boulders. As they
> > attack him (in full view of the Sleeper tribe members), he has little
> > choice but to go all out...
>
> > Vulgar or Coincidental??
>
> Mu. Invalid responses given.
>
> Neither. Do is a skill. If you can use Do to leap 10 feet and punch
> through boulders, then good for you. No paradox because it's not vulgar
> or coincidental because it's not sphere magic.
>
Really? I don't recall that. I thought that, while Do is partially a
physical discipline, anything done with it that was
superhuman/impossible was necessarily using it as a focus for magic
(Forces/Life/Entropy, most likely).

At any rate, the idea is that he's actively using Do as a focus, for
at least some actions...

> > 3) Sally the Progenitor feels sad for her neighbors whose dog was run
> > over by a car. Since their vet shop is closed, she volunteers to take
> > the dog to the medical lab they think she works at. The dog dies from
> > extreme trauma, but she clones it and brings it back after a while
> > none the worse for wear.
>
> > Vulgar or Coincidental??
>
> The cloning itself is vulgar, unless he does it in his sanctum.
>
> The family's reaction is going to be "disturbed," I think, but that's a
> matter for roleplaying, not paradox.

I wonder if Unbelief ultimately kills the dog or causes it to "run
away" one night?^^

Dex

 

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Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Hand-of-Omega wrote:

> Really? I don't recall that. I thought that, while Do is partially a
> physical discipline, anything done with it that was
> superhuman/impossible was necessarily using it as a focus for magic
> (Forces/Life/Entropy, most likely).

> At any rate, the idea is that he's actively using Do as a focus, for
> at least some actions...

So... you meant "Using Do as a focus to do magic in order to do normally
impossible physical feats," then, as opposed to "Using Do to do normally
impossible physical feats?"

'Cause both are possible, but there's a big damn important difference
between the two.

If the former, then coincidental if the sleeper population of the
village believes people can do "impossible" physical feats, and vulgar
otherwise.

> I wonder if Unbelief ultimately kills the dog or causes it to "run
> away" one night?^^

A cloned dog isn't subject to Unbelief unless its life is being
sustained by ongoing magic, so no.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Brian Merchant <remove.cheebie2001@comcast.example.net> wrote in message news:<ehl1o011is23bqrnll3hko64hjh2qfpkdn@4ax.com>...
>>
> >4) A joint New World Order/Syndicate Amalgam travel to an undeveloped
> >region of Haiti to spread the Technocratic paradigm under the cover of
> >Social Workers and Psychologists. Despite the fact that the local
> >paradigm heavily favors Voudoun, they use Social Science and
> >Psychoanalysis as foci.
> >
> >Vulgar or Coincidental??
>
> Coincidental. Haitians are still aware of western sciences/methods. If the
> same thing happens in an area that was completely isolated from the outside
> world and you allow local consensuses, it would depend on the exact effect.
>
Yes, but Americans are still "aware" of voodoo and other pagan
paradigms, but *magical* effects based on them are still Vulgar...I'm
not sure how paradox would manifest, tho--maybe by causing riots?

Dex

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Stephen Williams <steve1.williams@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<Lrdgd.17707$Qs6.1517943@news20.bellglobal.com>...
> Hand-of-Omega wrote:
>
> > 3) Sally the Progenitor feels sad for her neighbors whose dog was
run
> > over by a car. Since their vet shop is closed, she volunteers to take
> > the dog to the medical lab they think she works at. The dog dies from
> > extreme trauma, but she clones it and brings it back after a while
> > none the worse for wear.
> >
> > Vulgar or Coincidental??
>
> Vulgar without. Cloning is part of her paradigm, but it's also part
> which consensual reality doesn't agree with (not at the level she's
> doing it, anyway.) She knows that the cloning process defies "normal"
> reality, but no sleepers are present to witness the act since she does
> it in her lab.
>
But what if she shows them a newspaper clipping about the cats cloned
at a university (which really happened in RL)? Or gives them a
videotape called "Caring for your cloned pet"?^^

Dex

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Hand-of-Omega wrote:
> Well, I missed the last outbreak of Mage debate, but not this time!
> Same game as before, decide whether the following scenarios are
> vulgar, with or without witnesses, or safely coincidental:
>
> 1) Jackie the globetrotting Akashic has mastered Do to the point where
> he can leap 10 feet in the air and punch thru boulders. His latest
> adventure lands him in hot water with a South American tribe whose
> Awakened warrior class believe that drinking a broth of their sacred
> herb allows them to leap 10 feet and punch thru boulders. As they
> attack him (in full view of the Sleeper tribe members), he has little
> choice but to go all out...
>
> Vulgar or Coincidental??
Coincidental. It fits into the local paradigm, even if caused by another
means. Incidently, Do works much better when considered another name for
Arete.

> 2) Ziggy the Ecstatic is visiting his family for the holidays, and has
> clearly gotten very high just to deal with the experience. While
> everyone uncomfortably watches a brand-new episode of Jeopardy, his
> senses slip outof Time, and he begins loudly giving the correct
> answers before the host does...(well, the questions...*you know*!!)
>
> Vulgar or Coincidental??
This appears to be vulgar, although it would depend on the family. If it is
vulgar, what happens if he knows the answers but does not speak them? Does
that make it vulgar with witnesses? However, the wording suggests that this
is actually not active magic, but a paradox effect or resonance or something
I don't understand, in which case vulgarity does not apply.

> 3) Sally the Progenitor feels sad for her neighbors whose dog was run
> over by a car. Since their vet shop is closed, she volunteers to take
> the dog to the medical lab they think she works at. The dog dies from
> extreme trauma, but she clones it and brings it back after a while
> none the worse for wear.
>
> Vulgar or Coincidental??
Do the family know it is cloned? There is nothing anyone outside the lab
can definately say about their new dog - even quirks (change of colour /
personality) are not true signs that anything untowards happened.
Coincidental.

> 4) A joint New World Order/Syndicate Amalgam travel to an undeveloped
> region of Haiti to spread the Technocratic paradigm under the cover of
> Social Workers and Psychologists. Despite the fact that the local
> paradigm heavily favors Voudoun, they use Social Science and
> Psychoanalysis as foci.
>
> Vulgar or Coincidental??
As Stephenls says, it depends how much the locals understand modern science.
Since it says undeveloped, it is safe to say that there is (comparatively)
little education and no television at all, so vulgar.

> 5) A Cabal of Wu Lung is forced to intimidate a Kuei-jin's Scarlet
> Screen Tong. The Sleeper gang members notice that the Cabal not only
> are perfectly synchronized in action but also in word, making
> declarations and verbally responding to their enemies as one (Mind).
>
> Vulgar or Coincidental??
Coincidental, as others have descibed.

> 6) Amiko the Virtual Adept takes her bookbag and laptop into a cafe to
> show off some upgrades to her friends. While they're talking, a
> passing thief steals her bag and computer and runs out. Amiko shrugs,
> reaches under the table, pulls her bookbag out from under it, takes
> her laptop out of it and starts over again; meanwhile, the thief
> quickly realizes that her has a gymbag of dirty laundry under his
> arm...
> Vulgar or Coincidental??
I am a fan of coincidental apportation/creation when it is logical. There
are two problems here - paradigm and discretion. I prefer paradigm rule to
paradox rule, so if the mage can pull it off within his paradigm then I
would be more lenient to coincidence.

> 7) Bob the Nephandus has had it with his incompetent lackey.
> Gesturing, he uses Forces to telekinetically lift off his feet,
> strangle him and rip him apart limb from limb...from a yard away. This
> occurs inthe food court of a mall. To the Sleeper witnesses, Bob
> simply claims to have been "working out".
>
> Paradox or Coincidence??
Hmmm....

--
Picks-at-Flies
Christians have a lot to learn from Pagans - or is that the other way
around?
http://www.werepenguin.net/

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Picks-at-Flies" <aidan@nospam.werepenguin.co.uk> wrote in message news:<clvqnu$mgq$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> Hand-of-Omega wrote:
> > > 3) Sally the Progenitor feels sad for her neighbors whose dog was run
> > over by a car. Since their vet shop is closed, she volunteers to take
> > the dog to the medical lab they think she works at. The dog dies from
> > extreme trauma, but she clones it and brings it back after a while
> > none the worse for wear.
> >
> > Vulgar or Coincidental??
> Do the family know it is cloned? There is nothing anyone outside the lab
> can definately say about their new dog - even quirks (change of colour /
> personality) are not true signs that anything untowards happened.
> Coincidental.
>
No scars?

Dex

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Julie d'Aubigny" <kali.magdalene@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4180AE49.52E2D78F@comcast.net...

<snip>

> I think the problem is that you see an effect that partakes of
creation
> or apportation and demand that it must *be* creation or apportation,
and
> therefore vulgar. This, I think, flies in the face of the intended
> spirit of coincidental magic. The effect is what you want to
happen -
> they pick up the wrong bag, or they have a gun ready to draw.
Whether
> it's coincidental or vulgar is how you explain the process.

I'd suggest that this is true only up to a point. No matter how
strongly you prefer to consider effect rather than explanation,
eventually you're going to run into an effect where the only possible
explanation is "poof - it's magic!". In this particular case, if
everyone at the table sees the thief run off with the computer, then
sees the computer pulled out from under the table again, you're going
to be hard-pressed to explain it away, even if no one actually *saw*
the computer do a Star Trek impression. Sure, you could always claim
retroactive effect (i.e., the thief *didn't* actually grab the
computer after all - the witnesses are mistaken), but that's probably
something other than - or, rather, in addition to - Correspondance at
work there.

- David Prokopetz.

 

[william]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Once more into the breach!

Remember that I don't give a damn about the official rulings and use my
own checklist I've posted here before.

Hand-of-Omega wrote:
> Well, I missed the last outbreak of Mage debate, but not this time!
> Same game as before, decide whether the following scenarios are
> vulgar, with or without witnesses, or safely coincidental:
>
> 1) Jackie the globetrotting Akashic has mastered Do to the point where
> he can leap 10 feet in the air and punch thru boulders. His latest
> adventure lands him in hot water with a South American tribe whose
> Awakened warrior class believe that drinking a broth of their sacred
> herb allows them to leap 10 feet and punch thru boulders. As they
> attack him (in full view of the Sleeper tribe members), he has little
> choice but to go all out...
>
> Vulgar or Coincidental??

The implication is that the Tribe believes their magical warriors can do
these things. So it's coincidental for the tribesmen, being surrounded
by true believers. However, method matters in fitting paradigm. The
Akashic is not one of the magic warriors and uses methods that are
clearly not those of the magic warriors. His magics are vulgar, even if
duplicating the same effects.

>
> 2) Ziggy the Ecstatic is visiting his family for the holidays, and has
> clearly gotten very high just to deal with the experience. While
> everyone uncomfortably watches a brand-new episode of Jeopardy, his
> senses slip outof Time, and he begins loudly giving the correct
> answers before the host does...(well, the questions...*you know*!!)
>
> Vulgar or Coincidental??

Coincidental. People will be amazed, but not have their beliefs shaken.

>
> 3) Sally the Progenitor feels sad for her neighbors whose dog was run
> over by a car. Since their vet shop is closed, she volunteers to take
> the dog to the medical lab they think she works at. The dog dies from
> extreme trauma, but she clones it and brings it back after a while
> none the worse for wear.
>
> Vulgar or Coincidental??

If the dog was dead before she brought it into the lab and returns with
the same dog (not a puppy very similar to the dog), Vulgar. Otherwise
coincidental - again, people will be amazed but not have their views of
the world shaken.

>
> 4) A joint New World Order/Syndicate Amalgam travel to an undeveloped
> region of Haiti to spread the Technocratic paradigm under the cover of
> Social Workers and Psychologists. Despite the fact that the local
> paradigm heavily favors Voudoun, they use Social Science and
> Psychoanalysis as foci.
>
> Vulgar or Coincidental??

Probably coincidental - most psychoanlysis can be accepted as simple
insight wrapped up in babble (they might not believe how you knew
Jacques was secretely angry, but they won't disbelieve that you did)
>
> 5) A Cabal of Wu Lung is forced to intimidate a Kuei-jin's Scarlet
> Screen Tong. The Sleeper gang members notice that the Cabal not only
> are perfectly synchronized in action but also in word, making
> declarations and verbally responding to their enemies as one (Mind).
>
> Vulgar or Coincidental??

Coincidental.

>
> 6) Amiko the Virtual Adept takes her bookbag and laptop into a cafe to
> show off some upgrades to her friends. While they're talking, a
> passing thief steals her bag and computer and runs out. Amiko shrugs,
> reaches under the table, pulls her bookbag out from under it, takes
> her laptop out of it and starts over again; meanwhile, the thief
> quickly realizes that her has a gymbag of dirty laundry under his
> arm...
>
> Vulgar or Coincidental??

If she had a good reason to have a bag of dirty clothes? Coincidental.
Otherwise, Vulgar.

>
> 7) Bob the Nephandus has had it with his incompetent lackey.
> Gesturing, he uses Forces to telekinetically lift off his feet,
> strangle him and rip him apart limb from limb...from a yard away. This
> occurs inthe food court of a mall. To the Sleeper witnesses, Bob
> simply claims to have been "working out".

Right. Vulgar.


William

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

On 30 Oct 2004 10:41:42 -0700, smilinglord@hotmail.com (Hand-of-Omega)
wrote:

>Brian Merchant <remove.cheebie2001@comcast.example.net> wrote in message news:<ehl1o011is23bqrnll3hko64hjh2qfpkdn@4ax.com>...
>>>
>> >4) A joint New World Order/Syndicate Amalgam travel to an undeveloped
>> >region of Haiti to spread the Technocratic paradigm under the cover of
>> >Social Workers and Psychologists. Despite the fact that the local
>> >paradigm heavily favors Voudoun, they use Social Science and
>> >Psychoanalysis as foci.
>> >
>> >Vulgar or Coincidental??
>>
>> Coincidental. Haitians are still aware of western sciences/methods. If the
>> same thing happens in an area that was completely isolated from the outside
>> world and you allow local consensuses, it would depend on the exact effect.
>>
>Yes, but Americans are still "aware" of voodoo and other pagan
>paradigms, but *magical* effects based on them are still Vulgar...I

Nope. You could coincidentally make someone sick using a voodoo doll
because a distorted version of voudon is so well known. It's called a
"mythic thread". You could also invoke loa to possess your body
coincidentally, and you could make someone "die" by poisoning them and
come back as your brain damaged slave.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 11:34:02 +0100, "Picks-at-Flies"
<aidan@nospam.werepenguin.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> 3) Sally the Progenitor feels sad for her neighbors whose dog was run
>> over by a car. Since their vet shop is closed, she volunteers to take
>> the dog to the medical lab they think she works at. The dog dies from
>> extreme trauma, but she clones it and brings it back after a while
>> none the worse for wear.
>>
>> Vulgar or Coincidental??
>Do the family know it is cloned?

Nope. In the description it dies at the lab.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

On 30 Oct 2004 10:48:41 -0700, smilinglord@hotmail.com (Hand-of-Omega)
wrote:

>"Picks-at-Flies" <aidan@nospam.werepenguin.co.uk> wrote in message news:<clvqnu$mgq$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>> Hand-of-Omega wrote:
>> > > 3) Sally the Progenitor feels sad for her neighbors whose dog was run
>> > over by a car. Since their vet shop is closed, she volunteers to take
>> > the dog to the medical lab they think she works at. The dog dies from
>> > extreme trauma, but she clones it and brings it back after a while
>> > none the worse for wear.
>> >
>> > Vulgar or Coincidental??
>> Do the family know it is cloned? There is nothing anyone outside the lab
>> can definately say about their new dog - even quirks (change of colour /
>> personality) are not true signs that anything untowards happened.
>> Coincidental.
>>
>No scars?

Blunt force trauma doesn't usually leave scars.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

David Prokopetz wrote:
>
> I'd suggest that this is true only up to a point. No matter how
> strongly you prefer to consider effect rather than explanation,
> eventually you're going to run into an effect where the only possible
> explanation is "poof - it's magic!". In this particular case, if
> everyone at the table sees the thief run off with the computer, then
> sees the computer pulled out from under the table again, you're going
> to be hard-pressed to explain it away, even if no one actually *saw*
> the computer do a Star Trek impression. Sure, you could always claim
> retroactive effect (i.e., the thief *didn't* actually grab the
> computer after all - the witnesses are mistaken), but that's probably
> something other than - or, rather, in addition to - Correspondance at
> work there.

You manage to simultaneously state the obvious and add nothing new to
the discussion, though.

Anyway, the presence of witnesses does not have anything to do with
whether something is vulgar or not, as has been pointed out repeatedly.

--
Elizabeth D. Brooks | kali.magdalene@comcast.net | US2002021724
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
AeonAdventure | "Dobby likes us!" -- Smeagol
-- http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/view/6856

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Julie d'Aubigny" <kali.magdalene@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:41840D4C.27A0B746@comcast.net...
> David Prokopetz wrote:
> >
> > I'd suggest that this is true only up to a point. No matter how
> > strongly you prefer to consider effect rather than explanation,
> > eventually you're going to run into an effect where the only
possible
> > explanation is "poof - it's magic!". In this particular case, if
> > everyone at the table sees the thief run off with the computer,
then
> > sees the computer pulled out from under the table again, you're
going
> > to be hard-pressed to explain it away, even if no one actually
*saw*
> > the computer do a Star Trek impression. Sure, you could always
claim
> > retroactive effect (i.e., the thief *didn't* actually grab the
> > computer after all - the witnesses are mistaken), but that's
probably
> > something other than - or, rather, in addition to - Correspondance
at
> > work there.
>
> You manage to simultaneously state the obvious and add nothing new
to
> the discussion, though.

If it's so obvious, then why do you and Stephenls so persistently talk
past each other?

- David Prokopetz.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

In the borning days of the third millennium, Hand-of-Omega wrote:
>Brian Merchant <remove.cheebie2001@comcast.example.net> wrote in
>>message news:<ehl1o011is23bqrnll3hko64hjh2qfpkdn@4ax.com>...
>> >Vulgar or Coincidental??
>>
>> Coincidental. Haitians are still aware of western sciences/methods. If the
>> same thing happens in an area that was completely isolated from the outside
>> world and you allow local consensuses, it would depend on the exact effect.
>>
>Yes, but Americans are still "aware" of voodoo and other pagan
>paradigms, but *magical* effects based on them are still Vulgar...I'm
>not sure how paradox would manifest, tho--maybe by causing riots?

Yeah, but most westerners don't really _believe_ in voodoo. If the area of
Haiti was one where they thought the talk of TV and cars and planes were just
some stories to dazzle the kids, then a local paradigm would invalidate
Technocratic methods. I doubt you'll find an area like that in Haiti.

--
Brian Merchant (remove 'remove' and 'example' from email)

Puritanism didn't keep the puritans from sinning, it just kept
them from enjoying it.
--Father Joe Breighner
Country Roads

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

David Prokopetz wrote:
>
> If it's so obvious, then why do you and Stephenls so persistently talk
> past each other?

If you have a situation where it's not possible to use an effect without
getting any outcome but "that's magic!" you're either dealing with an
inflexible ST or a simple failure of imagination. Or you're dealing with
a power that says "This can never be a coincidence."

I'm saying "apportation or creation can be coincidental" and Stephenls
seems to say "apportation or creation must be vulgar."

--
Elizabeth D. Brooks | kali.magdalene@comcast.net | US2002021724
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
AeonAdventure | "Dobby likes us!" -- Smeagol
-- http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/view/6856

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Julie d'Aubigny" <kali.magdalene@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:418412C3.6F717CB2@comcast.net...
> David Prokopetz wrote:
> >
> > If it's so obvious, then why do you and Stephenls so persistently talk
> > past each other?
>
> If you have a situation where it's not possible to use an effect without
> getting any outcome but "that's magic!" you're either dealing with an
> inflexible ST or a simple failure of imagination.

Or you picked an effect that can't be explained away very easily. Let's
review the stated situation, shall we?

"6) Amiko the Virtual Adept takes her bookbag and laptop into a cafe to
show off some upgrades to her friends. While they're talking, a
passing thief steals her bag and computer and runs out. Amiko shrugs,
reaches under the table, pulls her bookbag out from under it, takes
her laptop out of it and starts over again; meanwhile, the thief
quickly realizes that her has a gymbag of dirty laundry under his
arm..."

Now, it is explicitly stated that the thief steals the computer, and it is
likewise explicitly stated that Amiko subsequently reaches under the table
and draws forth the same computer. Stephenls is presuming that we have not
been "lied to", and events stand as they have actually been described; you,
on the other hand, are presuming that it's okay to modify the events as
described to make the effect work (e.g., "but the thief didn't *really* take
the computer after all"). In other words, you're working from different
basic assumptions; it is true that Amiko *could* have engaged in a lot of
additional descriptive flummery as you wish to suggest, but nothing in the
scenario as written obliges us to presume that this is the case.

- David Prokopetz.

 

[william]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

David Prokopetz wrote:

> "Julie d'Aubigny" <kali.magdalene@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:418412C3.6F717CB2@comcast.net...
>
>>David Prokopetz wrote:
>>
>>>If it's so obvious, then why do you and Stephenls so persistently talk
>>>past each other?
>>
>>If you have a situation where it's not possible to use an effect without
>>getting any outcome but "that's magic!" you're either dealing with an
>>inflexible ST or a simple failure of imagination.
>
>
> Or you picked an effect that can't be explained away very easily. Let's
> review the stated situation, shall we?
>
> "6) Amiko the Virtual Adept takes her bookbag and laptop into a cafe to
> show off some upgrades to her friends. While they're talking, a
> passing thief steals her bag and computer and runs out. Amiko shrugs,
> reaches under the table, pulls her bookbag out from under it, takes
> her laptop out of it and starts over again; meanwhile, the thief
> quickly realizes that her has a gymbag of dirty laundry under his
> arm..."
>
> Now, it is explicitly stated that the thief steals the computer, and it is
> likewise explicitly stated that Amiko subsequently reaches under the table
> and draws forth the same computer. Stephenls is presuming that we have not
> been "lied to", and events stand as they have actually been described; you,
> on the other hand, are presuming that it's okay to modify the events as
> described to make the effect work (e.g., "but the thief didn't *really* take
> the computer after all"). In other words, you're working from different
> basic assumptions; it is true that Amiko *could* have engaged in a lot of
> additional descriptive flummery as you wish to suggest, but nothing in the
> scenario as written obliges us to presume that this is the case.
>
> - David Prokopetz.
>
>


Whereas my solution to this problem is that it doesn't matter that there
was a teleportation - a plausible explanation can be found for the
state of affairs after the magic (including everyone's memories except
the mage), and so the consensus is willing to stick it's head in the
sand and pretend nothing happened.

William