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HELP - SOS: 6230 SIM Blocked...!

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Anonymous
December 18, 2004 1:25:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

Hi,

My younger cousin was playing with my 6230 and managed to get the phone to
ask him for the phone's PUK code...

so he continued to play with it and now when I start the phone, all I see is
a message saying: "SIM CARD BLOCKED"

WHAT SHOULD I DO ?

do I have to contact the retailer? or is there a code for releasing it??

Thanks in advance,
Mickey.

More about : sos 6230 sim blocked

Anonymous
December 18, 2004 1:25:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

also sprach Mickey <porat_m@netvision.net.il> [2004.12.17.2125 +0100]:
> so he continued to play with it and now when I start the phone,
> all I see is a message saying: "SIM CARD BLOCKED"
>
> WHAT SHOULD I DO ?

Buy a new SIM card.

- --
martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.)
\____ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:" net@madduck

invalid/expired pgp subkeys? use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver!
spamtraps: madduck.bogus@madduck.net
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux)

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Anonymous
December 18, 2004 1:25:03 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

"martin f krafft" <alt.cellular.nokia@usenet.madduck.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.5.1103316205.18553.alt.cellular.nokia@lists.madduck.net...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> also sprach Mickey <porat_m@netvision.net.il> [2004.12.17.2125 +0100]:
>> so he continued to play with it and now when I start the phone,
>> all I see is a message saying: "SIM CARD BLOCKED"
>>
>> WHAT SHOULD I DO ?
>
> Buy a new SIM card.

It would be a lot more sensible to advise the OP to phone the network
operator & obtain the PUK code.

> - --
> martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.)
> \____ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:" net@madduck
>
> invalid/expired pgp subkeys? use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver!
> spamtraps: madduck.bogus@madduck.net
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux)
<snip>

And what's all this rubbish about? Do you really need to have a sig this
long. The accepted standard is no more than 4 lines!

--
>>> Unlock Your Phone's Potential <<<
>>> www.uselessinfo.org.uk <<<
>>> www.thephonelocker.co.uk <<<
>>> www.gsm-solutions.co.uk <<<
Related resources
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Anonymous
December 18, 2004 2:00:58 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

P A N I C !!




"Mickey" <porat_m@netvision.net.il> wrote in message
news:cpvfau$3t0$1@news2.netvision.net.il...
> Hi,
>
> My younger cousin was playing with my 6230 and managed to get the phone to
> ask him for the phone's PUK code...
>
> so he continued to play with it and now when I start the phone, all I see
is
> a message saying: "SIM CARD BLOCKED"
>
> WHAT SHOULD I DO ?
>
> do I have to contact the retailer? or is there a code for releasing it??
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Mickey.
>
>
Anonymous
December 18, 2004 4:56:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

also sprach Richard Colton <webmaster@NOSPAMuselessinfo.org.uk> [2004.12.17.2250 +0100]:
> It would be a lot more sensible to advise the OP to phone the
> network operator & obtain the PUK code.

If you can obtain the PUK from your network operator, I'd love to
know your network operator. Also, give me your cell number so that
I can keep you posted!

- --
martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.)
\____ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:" net@madduck

invalid/expired pgp subkeys? use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver!
spamtraps: madduck.bogus@madduck.net
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFBw4A+IgvIgzMMSnURAmTyAKCIjhyr/4/TihyXQbWp7ps82CC6/gCeNZMZ
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=Q6r9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Anonymous
December 18, 2004 6:05:07 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

martin f krafft wrote:
> also sprach Richard Colton <webmaster@NOSPAMuselessinfo.org.uk>
> [2004.12.17.2250 +0100]:
>> It would be a lot more sensible to advise the OP to phone the
>> network operator & obtain the PUK code.
>
> If you can obtain the PUK from your network operator, I'd love to
> know your network operator.

Er.. Any of them..!

Where else can the PUK be obtained..??!!!

> Also, give me your cell number so that
> I can keep you posted!

Eh..?


Ivor
Anonymous
December 18, 2004 8:23:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

also sprach Ivor Jones <this.address@notvalid.inv> [2004.12.18.0405 +0100]:
> Er.. Any of them..!
>
> Where else can the PUK be obtained..??!!!

It's bound to a SIM card. It's the proof that you are the owner of
a SIM card. If an operator hands you the PUK for an existing SIM
card, he is violating the privacy agreement.

It would be like calling up your town hall and asking them to send
you your birth certificate.

- --
martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.)
\____ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:" net@madduck

invalid/expired pgp subkeys? use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver!
spamtraps: madduck.bogus@madduck.net
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux)

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Anonymous
December 18, 2004 11:32:47 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

martin f krafft wrote:
> also sprach Ivor Jones <this.address@notvalid.inv> [2004.12.18.0405
> +0100]:
>> Er.. Any of them..!
>>
>> Where else can the PUK be obtained..??!!!
>
> It's bound to a SIM card. It's the proof that you are the owner of
> a SIM card. If an operator hands you the PUK for an existing SIM
> card, he is violating the privacy agreement.
>
> It would be like calling up your town hall and asking them to send
> you your birth certificate.

What a load of b******s. Where do *you* get the PUK from then..?!

Ivor
Anonymous
December 18, 2004 11:33:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

"martin f krafft" <alt.cellular.nokia@usenet.madduck.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.5.1103316205.18553.alt.cellular.nokia@lists.madduck.net...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> also sprach Mickey <porat_m@netvision.net.il> [2004.12.17.2125 +0100]:
> > so he continued to play with it and now when I start the phone,
> > all I see is a message saying: "SIM CARD BLOCKED"
> >
> > WHAT SHOULD I DO ?
>
> Buy a new SIM card.

And get the money back from the little sod who was mucking about with your
phone, unless you had said he could use it, in which case let it be a lesson
to you not to let anyone borrow your phone.

:-)

--
Brian
Anonymous
December 18, 2004 11:46:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

"martin f krafft" <alt.cellular.nokia@usenet.madduck.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.6.1103331392.18553.alt.cellular.nokia@lists.madduck.net...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> also sprach Richard Colton <webmaster@NOSPAMuselessinfo.org.uk>
> [2004.12.17.2250 +0100]:
>> It would be a lot more sensible to advise the OP to phone the
>> network operator & obtain the PUK code.
>
> If you can obtain the PUK from your network operator, I'd love to
> know your network operator.

All of the network operators in the UK will supply the PUK codes on request
to the registered account holder.

> Also, give me your cell number so that
> I can keep you posted!

Yeah, right!

BTW, your sig is still borked.

--
>>> Unlock Your Phone's Potential <<<
>>> www.uselessinfo.org.uk <<<
>>> www.thephonelocker.co.uk <<<
>>> www.gsm-solutions.co.uk <<<
Anonymous
December 18, 2004 11:50:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

"martin f krafft" <alt.cellular.nokia@usenet.madduck.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.7.1103343832.18553.alt.cellular.nokia@lists.madduck.net...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> also sprach Ivor Jones <this.address@notvalid.inv> [2004.12.18.0405
> +0100]:
>> Er.. Any of them..!
>>
>> Where else can the PUK be obtained..??!!!
>
> It's bound to a SIM card.

Yes, that part's right.

> It's the proof that you are the owner of
> a SIM card. If an operator hands you the PUK for an existing SIM
> card, he is violating the privacy agreement.

Eh? Don't be daft. The PUK code is a security code that you are entitled
to have access to. In the UK, at least one of the network operators
supplies the PUK with their SIM cards. How the hell can an operator
supplying a PUK code to the account holder be a breach of any privacy
greement?

> It would be like calling up your town hall and asking them to send
> you your birth certificate.

No, a more accurate analogy would be asking your credit card issuer to
supply you with the PIN code for your card so that you can actually use the
thing. PUK's (and PIN's) should only be supplied to the account holder.

--
>>> Unlock Your Phone's Potential <<<
>>> www.uselessinfo.org.uk <<<
>>> www.thephonelocker.co.uk <<<
>>> www.gsm-solutions.co.uk <<<
December 18, 2004 12:52:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

> It would be a lot more sensible to advise the OP to phone the network
> operator & obtain the PUK code.

"My younger cousin was playing with my 6230 and managed to get the phone to
ask him for the phone's PUK code...

so he continued to play with it and now when I start the phone, all I see is
a message saying: "SIM CARD BLOCKED""

If he's entered the PUK code wrong too many times, the SIM is gone,
completely.
New SIM time.

-mark
Anonymous
December 19, 2004 12:05:56 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 05:23:49 +0100, martin f krafft
<alt.cellular.nokia@usenet.madduck.net> wrote:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>also sprach Ivor Jones <this.address@notvalid.inv> [2004.12.18.0405 +0100]:
>> Er.. Any of them..!
>>
>> Where else can the PUK be obtained..??!!!
>
>It's bound to a SIM card. It's the proof that you are the owner of
>a SIM card. If an operator hands you the PUK for an existing SIM
>card, he is violating the privacy agreement.
>
>It would be like calling up your town hall and asking them to send
>you your birth certificate.

I've been given a PUK by my service provider over the phone. They went
through a few procedures to confirm my identity and then read the PUK
out to me. Where's the problem with that?

Chris
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 2:07:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

also sprach Ivor Jones <this.address@notvalid.inv> [2004.12.18.0932 +0100]:
> What a load of b******s. Where do *you* get the PUK from then..?!

In a sealed envelope upon purchase of the SIM card. One time only.
Just like my parents got my notary-authenticated birth certificate
when my birth was registered, one time only.

- --
martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.)
\____ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:" net@madduck

invalid/expired pgp subkeys? use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver!
spamtraps: madduck.bogus@madduck.net
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Anonymous
December 20, 2004 2:11:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 11:07:50 +0100, martin f krafft
<alt.cellular.nokia@usenet.madduck.net> wrote:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>also sprach Ivor Jones <this.address@notvalid.inv> [2004.12.18.0932 +0100]:
>> What a load of b******s. Where do *you* get the PUK from then..?!
>
>In a sealed envelope upon purchase of the SIM card. One time only.
>Just like my parents got my notary-authenticated birth certificate
>when my birth was registered, one time only.

That may be the case with your particular Operator. With O2 and
Vodafone you can call at any time to request the code if you have
locked your SIM.

Do not assume that everybody is the same as you. That can come across
as arrogance.

--


Shevek

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Anonymous
December 20, 2004 2:13:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

also sprach Richard Colton <webmaster@NOSPAMuselessinfo.org.uk> [2004.12.18.0950 +0100]:
> > It's the proof that you are the owner of a SIM card. If an
> > operator hands you the PUK for an existing SIM card, he is
> > violating the privacy agreement.
>
> Eh? Don't be daft. The PUK code is a security code that you are
> entitled to have access to.

Yeah, and you should have gotten it from your operator with the SIM
card, and it was assigned to the SIM card before a number had been
associated, a contract written, or even a provider known.

So I am sorry if you misunderstood. Of course you get the PUK code.
It's just a problem if you can call up and get it just like that.
Identify questions can be answered by anyone with knowledge about
the identity.

If the provider hands out the PUK over the phone, it's a sign of
their incompetence. It also suggests that they know the PUK, to
which they are not entitled.

I am basing all this on German, French, and Swiss networks. However,
it's mostly all Vodafone, Orange, and <barf>T-Mobile, and so I'd
assume they have the same policies all over the place.



also sprach Richard Colton <webmaster@NOSPAMuselessinfo.org.uk> [2004.12.18.0946 +0100]:
> All of the network operators in the UK will supply the PUK codes
> on request to the registered account holder.

How do you prove that you are the account holder?

> BTW, your sig is still borked.

How so?

- --
martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.)
\____ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:" net@madduck

invalid/expired pgp subkeys? use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver!
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Anonymous
December 20, 2004 4:25:12 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

martin f krafft wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> also sprach Ivor Jones <this.address@notvalid.inv> [2004.12.18.0932
> +0100]:
>> What a load of b******s. Where do *you* get the PUK from then..?!
>
> In a sealed envelope upon purchase of the SIM card. One time only.
> Just like my parents got my notary-authenticated birth certificate
> when my birth was registered, one time only.

What network and country are you describing..? Here in the UK some network
operators do supply the PUK with the SIM card, but I've never seen it done
in a sealed envelope. With Orange, the network I am on, the PUK is
available either directly from a customer services representative over the
phone, once identity is proven by use of my account password, or it is
also available from the website again after logging in to my account
details using my password.

This can be done as many times as is necessary, it is not limited to a
single occasion. What if you lose your sealed envelope..? What if you
forget your password more than once..?

BTW I still have my original birth certificate, but if I were to lose it I
could apply for a replacement.

Ivor
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 4:35:12 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

martin f krafft wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> also sprach Richard Colton <webmaster@NOSPAMuselessinfo.org.uk>
> [2004.12.18.0950 +0100]:
>>> It's the proof that you are the owner of a SIM card. If an
>>> operator hands you the PUK for an existing SIM card, he is
>>> violating the privacy agreement.
>>
>> Eh? Don't be daft. The PUK code is a security code that you are
>> entitled to have access to.
>
> Yeah, and you should have gotten it from your operator with the SIM
> card, and it was assigned to the SIM card before a number had been
> associated, a contract written, or even a provider known.

No it wasn't. The PUK is generated by software from an algorithm based on
the SIM card number, in a similar (although very different) way to which
unlock codes are generated from IMEI numbers.

> So I am sorry if you misunderstood. Of course you get the PUK code.
> It's just a problem if you can call up and get it just like that.
> Identify questions can be answered by anyone with knowledge about
> the identity.

I agree, which is why the account password is required. No-one but the
account holder should know this.

> If the provider hands out the PUK over the phone, it's a sign of
> their incompetence. It also suggests that they know the PUK, to
> which they are not entitled.

Of course they are entitled to know it, the operator has to run the
software that generates it so that they can supply it to you..!

> I am basing all this on German, French, and Swiss networks. However,
> it's mostly all Vodafone, Orange, and <barf>T-Mobile, and so I'd
> assume they have the same policies all over the place.

They don't.

Ivor
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 4:46:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

also sprach Shevek <drshevekFOADSPAMMERS@FOADSPAMMERSgmail.com> [2004.12.20.1211 +0100]:
> That may be the case with your particular Operator. With O2 and
> Vodafone you can call at any time to request the code if you have
> locked your SIM.

what does "if you have locked your SIM" mean?

> Do not assume that everybody is the same as you. That can come
> across as arrogance.

sorry.

- --
martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.)
\____ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:" net@madduck

invalid/expired pgp subkeys? use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver!
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Anonymous
December 20, 2004 4:46:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 13:46:52 +0100, martin f krafft
<alt.cellular.nokia@usenet.madduck.net> wrote:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>also sprach Shevek <drshevekFOADSPAMMERS@FOADSPAMMERSgmail.com> [2004.12.20.1211 +0100]:
>> That may be the case with your particular Operator. With O2 and
>> Vodafone you can call at any time to request the code if you have
>> locked your SIM.
>
>what does "if you have locked your SIM" mean?

entered your pin number incorrectly too many times

>
>> Do not assume that everybody is the same as you. That can come
>> across as arrogance.
>
>sorry.


--


Shevek

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Anonymous
December 20, 2004 4:46:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

martin f krafft wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> also sprach Shevek <drshevekFOADSPAMMERS@FOADSPAMMERSgmail.com>
> [2004.12.20.1211 +0100]:
>> That may be the case with your particular Operator. With O2 and
>> Vodafone you can call at any time to request the code if you have
>> locked your SIM.
>
> what does "if you have locked your SIM" mean?

It means what it says, if you have locked your SIM by entering the wrong
password too many times..! Why else would you need your PUK code..?

Ivor
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 6:03:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 11:07:50 +0100, martin f krafft
<alt.cellular.nokia@usenet.madduck.net> said in alt.cellular.nokia:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1

>also sprach Ivor Jones <this.address@notvalid.inv> [2004.12.18.0932 +0100]:
>> What a load of b******s. Where do *you* get the PUK from then..?!

>In a sealed envelope upon purchase of the SIM card.

Maybe in the country in which you live. No "sealed envelopes" in the
US. You have to call the carrier (or have your dealer call the
carrier).
---
CellPhonesEtc at optonline dot net
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 6:08:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

also sprach Ivor Jones <this.address@notvalid.inv> [2004.12.20.1435 +0100]:
> No it wasn't. The PUK is generated by software from an algorithm
> based on the SIM card number, in a similar (although very
> different) way to which unlock codes are generated from IMEI
> numbers.

so where is the crack to allow me to unlock the SIM of the phone
i just stole? where can i create PUK numbers from the SIM card
numbers (which are easily accessible)?

> > So I am sorry if you misunderstood. Of course you get the PUK code.
> > It's just a problem if you can call up and get it just like that.
> > Identify questions can be answered by anyone with knowledge about
> > the identity.
>
> I agree, which is why the account password is required. No-one but the
> account holder should know this.

Ha! Passwords are really bad at this. Apart, go to any store and see
how they handle it there.

"Would you be so kind as to choose a password, M'am?"
"Oh, sure. Wait, let me see. Yeah, take rosebud, I use that all
the time"
"Okay, your password is rosebud, all lower-case, M'am. Anything
else I can help you with?"
"No."
"Then please sign here and we can hand you the SIM card."

> > If the provider hands out the PUK over the phone, it's a sign of
> > their incompetence. It also suggests that they know the PUK, to
> > which they are not entitled.
>
> Of course they are entitled to know it, the operator has to run
> the software that generates it so that they can supply it to
> you..!

I have different information. But apparently, the countries I know
have more restrictive policies... read on.



also sprach Ivor Jones <this.address@notvalid.inv> [2004.12.20.1425 +0100]:
> What network and country are you describing..?

Germany, Austria, Switzerland, France.

> Here in the UK some network operators do supply the PUK with the
> SIM card, but I've never seen it done in a sealed envelope. With
> Orange, the network I am on, the PUK is available either directly
> from a customer services representative over the phone, once
> identity is proven by use of my account password, or it is also
> available from the website again after logging in to my account
> details using my password.

How extraordinarily insecure

> This can be done as many times as is necessary, it is not limited
> to a single occasion. What if you lose your sealed envelope..?
> What if you forget your password more than once..?

You have to purchase a new SIM card.

> BTW I still have my original birth certificate, but if I were to lose it I
> could apply for a replacement.

okay, okay. Bad example.

- --
martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.)
\____ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:" net@madduck

invalid/expired pgp subkeys? use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver!
spamtraps: madduck.bogus@madduck.net
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 6:08:06 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

martin f krafft wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> also sprach Ivor Jones <this.address@notvalid.inv> [2004.12.20.1435
> +0100]:
>> No it wasn't. The PUK is generated by software from an algorithm
>> based on the SIM card number, in a similar (although very
>> different) way to which unlock codes are generated from IMEI
>> numbers.
>
> so where is the crack to allow me to unlock the SIM of the phone
> i just stole? where can i create PUK numbers from the SIM card
> numbers (which are easily accessible)?

Hasn't been cracked and probably never will be. The algorithm is different
and more complicated.

>>> So I am sorry if you misunderstood. Of course you get the PUK
>>> code. It's just a problem if you can call up and get it just like
>>> that. Identify questions can be answered by anyone with knowledge
>>> about the identity.
>>
>> I agree, which is why the account password is required. No-one but
>> the account holder should know this.
>
> Ha! Passwords are really bad at this. Apart, go to any store and see
> how they handle it there.
>
> "Would you be so kind as to choose a password, M'am?"
> "Oh, sure. Wait, let me see. Yeah, take rosebud, I use that all
> the time"
> "Okay, your password is rosebud, all lower-case, M'am. Anything
> else I can help you with?"
> "No."
> "Then please sign here and we can hand you the SIM card."

You have a strange system there..! Here, the account password is never
disclosed to anyone except customer services.

>>> If the provider hands out the PUK over the phone, it's a sign of
>>> their incompetence. It also suggests that they know the PUK, to
>>> which they are not entitled.
>>
>> Of course they are entitled to know it, the operator has to run
>> the software that generates it so that they can supply it to
>> you..!
>
> I have different information. But apparently, the countries I know
> have more restrictive policies... read on.
>
>
>
> also sprach Ivor Jones <this.address@notvalid.inv> [2004.12.20.1425
> +0100]:
>> What network and country are you describing..?
>
> Germany, Austria, Switzerland, France.
>
>> Here in the UK some network operators do supply the PUK with the
>> SIM card, but I've never seen it done in a sealed envelope. With
>> Orange, the network I am on, the PUK is available either directly
>> from a customer services representative over the phone, once
>> identity is proven by use of my account password, or it is also
>> available from the website again after logging in to my account
>> details using my password.
>
> How extraordinarily insecure

Nothing insecure about a password, as long as it isn't disclosed to
someone who shouldn't have it.

>> This can be done as many times as is necessary, it is not limited
>> to a single occasion. What if you lose your sealed envelope..?
>> What if you forget your password more than once..?
>
> You have to purchase a new SIM card.

How extrordinarily restrictive. But it does generate more revenue selling
SIM cards I suppose. Are you allowed to keep your old number..?

>
>> BTW I still have my original birth certificate, but if I were to
>> lose it I could apply for a replacement.
>
> okay, okay. Bad example.


Ivor
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 6:08:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:39:42 -0000, "Ivor Jones"
<this.address@notvalid.inv> said in alt.cellular.nokia:

>martin f krafft wrote:

>> "Would you be so kind as to choose a password, M'am?"
>> "Oh, sure. Wait, let me see. Yeah, take rosebud, I use that all
>> the time"
>> "Okay, your password is rosebud, all lower-case, M'am. Anything
>> else I can help you with?"
>> "No."
>> "Then please sign here and we can hand you the SIM card."

>You have a strange system there..!

And, even if the dealer DID "get" the password when selling the phone,
if you asked him, an hour or two later, "Do you remember what password
that guy in the blue T-shirt who bought the V551 chose", you'd be
lucky if he remembered that there WAS a guy in a blue T-shirt in the
store.

Only a very unscrupulous dealer would even try to remember customer
passwords.

(We get enough information to pull off identity theft from every
customer who activates a phone. Any dealer who wants to use that kind
of info a) has more than he needs without passwords and b) had better
like striped sunlight.)
---
CellPhonesEtc at optonline dot net
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 6:10:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 11:13:03 +0100, martin f krafft
<alt.cellular.nokia@usenet.madduck.net> said in alt.cellular.nokia:

>Yeah, and you should have gotten it from your operator with the SIM
>card, and it was assigned to the SIM card before a number had been
>associated, a contract written, or even a provider known.

And, in the US, not given to the dealer, so the dealer can't give it
to the customer.

>I am basing all this on German, French, and Swiss networks. However,
>it's mostly all Vodafone, Orange, and <barf>T-Mobile, and so I'd
>assume they have the same policies all over the place.

T-Mobile, for one, doesn't in the US.
---
CellPhonesEtc at optonline dot net
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 7:27:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

"martin f krafft" <alt.cellular.nokia@usenet.madduck.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.13.1103551687.18553.alt.cellular.nokia@lists.madduck.net...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> also sprach Ivor Jones <this.address@notvalid.inv> [2004.12.20.1435
> +0100]:
>> No it wasn't. The PUK is generated by software from an algorithm
>> based on the SIM card number, in a similar (although very
>> different) way to which unlock codes are generated from IMEI
>> numbers.
>
> so where is the crack to allow me to unlock the SIM of the phone
> i just stole? where can i create PUK numbers from the SIM card
> numbers (which are easily accessible)?

There isn't one. Plenty of people ahve tried cracking the algorhythm but
none have succeeded.

>> > So I am sorry if you misunderstood. Of course you get the PUK code.
>> > It's just a problem if you can call up and get it just like that.
>> > Identify questions can be answered by anyone with knowledge about
>> > the identity.
>>
>> I agree, which is why the account password is required. No-one but the
>> account holder should know this.
>
> Ha! Passwords are really bad at this. Apart, go to any store and see
> how they handle it there.

Err... and?

> "Would you be so kind as to choose a password, M'am?"
> "Oh, sure. Wait, let me see. Yeah, take rosebud, I use that all
> the time"
> "Okay, your password is rosebud, all lower-case, M'am. Anything
> else I can help you with?"
> "No."
> "Then please sign here and we can hand you the SIM card."

Nope, it's not as easy as that. Most operators will need more information
than an account password prior to handing over the PUK code (or even
discussing the account). The password is just an extra layer of security.

>> > If the provider hands out the PUK over the phone, it's a sign of
>> > their incompetence. It also suggests that they know the PUK, to
>> > which they are not entitled.
>>
>> Of course they are entitled to know it, the operator has to run
>> the software that generates it so that they can supply it to
>> you..!

Nope, the operator runs a database not a code calculator.

> I have different information. But apparently, the countries I know
> have more restrictive policies... read on.

Some do, the requirements for each country will be different.

> also sprach Ivor Jones <this.address@notvalid.inv> [2004.12.20.1425
> +0100]:
>> What network and country are you describing..?
>
> Germany, Austria, Switzerland, France.
>
>> Here in the UK some network operators do supply the PUK with the
>> SIM card, but I've never seen it done in a sealed envelope. With
>> Orange, the network I am on, the PUK is available either directly
>> from a customer services representative over the phone, once
>> identity is proven by use of my account password, or it is also
>> available from the website again after logging in to my account
>> details using my password.
>
> How extraordinarily insecure

Well what would you suggest to improve the situation?

>> This can be done as many times as is necessary, it is not limited
>> to a single occasion. What if you lose your sealed envelope..?
>> What if you forget your password more than once..?
>
> You have to purchase a new SIM card.

Not too easy if it's a contract SIM card.

--
>>> Unlock Your Phone's Potential <<<
>>> www.uselessinfo.org.uk <<<
>>> www.thephonelocker.co.uk <<<
>>> www.gsm-solutions.co.uk <<<
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 7:36:01 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

"martin f krafft" <alt.cellular.nokia@usenet.madduck.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.9.1103537585.18553.alt.cellular.nokia@lists.madduck.net...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> also sprach Richard Colton <webmaster@NOSPAMuselessinfo.org.uk>
> [2004.12.18.0950 +0100]:
>> > It's the proof that you are the owner of a SIM card. If an
>> > operator hands you the PUK for an existing SIM card, he is
>> > violating the privacy agreement.
>>
>> Eh? Don't be daft. The PUK code is a security code that you are
>> entitled to have access to.
>
> Yeah, and you should have gotten it from your operator with the SIM
> card, and it was assigned to the SIM card before a number had been
> associated, a contract written, or even a provider known.

Maybe you should get it with the SIM card (that's another discussion), but
not all operators provide it at the point of sale.

> So I am sorry if you misunderstood. Of course you get the PUK code.
> It's just a problem if you can call up and get it just like that.
> Identify questions can be answered by anyone with knowledge about
> the identity.

Maybe they can, but the combination of identity questions & password
confirmation make the system more secure than many credit card transactions,
so I don't quite see what your point is.

> If the provider hands out the PUK over the phone, it's a sign of
> their incompetence.

Eh? How on earth do you come to that conclusion. The customer is entitled
to the PUK code & the network operator is providing it after the customer
has been identified.

> It also suggests that they know the PUK, to
> which they are not entitled.

Rubbish, the SIM belongs to the network not the customer therefore they are
perfectly entitled to it. In addition, none of the networks can generate
PUk codes, they have to look them up in a database.

> I am basing all this on German, French, and Swiss networks. However,
> it's mostly all Vodafone, Orange, and <barf>T-Mobile, and so I'd
> assume they have the same policies all over the place.

Not in the UK apparantly.
<snip>

>> All of the network operators in the UK will supply the PUK codes
>> on request to the registered account holder.
>
> How do you prove that you are the account holder?
>
>> BTW, your sig is still borked.
>
> How so?

Your sig sep is semi-broken for starters (it should be dash dash space), and
your sig is way too long by generally accepted standards (no more than four
lines). HTH.

--
>>> Unlock Your Phone's Potential <<<
>>> www.uselessinfo.org.uk <<<
>>> www.thephonelocker.co.uk <<<
>>> www.gsm-solutions.co.uk <<<
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 7:45:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

also sprach Ivor Jones <this.address@notvalid.inv> [2004.12.20.1539 +0100]:
> Hasn't been cracked and probably never will be. The algorithm is
> different and more complicated.

Does anyone have more information on this? As I am a cryptography
person, I am naturally interested in this.

- --
martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.)
\____ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:" net@madduck

invalid/expired pgp subkeys? use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver!
spamtraps: madduck.bogus@madduck.net
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 7:47:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

also sprach Ivor Jones <this.address@notvalid.inv> [2004.12.20.1539 +0100]:
> > "Okay, your password is rosebud, all lower-case, M'am. Anything
> > else I can help you with?"
> > "No."
> > "Then please sign here and we can hand you the SIM card."
>
> You have a strange system there..! Here, the account password is never
> disclosed to anyone except customer services.

It is disclosed. Read on below.

> Nothing insecure about a password, as long as it isn't disclosed
> to someone who shouldn't have it.

Once it has been disclosed, you have no way to keep track on how
many people know it. Leaks tend to expand with time.

> > You have to purchase a new SIM card.
>
> How extrordinarily restrictive. But it does generate more revenue selling
> SIM cards I suppose. Are you allowed to keep your old number..?

You get to keep your old number.

What happens if you forget your customer service password and lock
yourself out of the phone. That's akin to losing the sealed
envelope, if you ask me.

- --
martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.)
\____ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:" net@madduck

invalid/expired pgp subkeys? use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver!
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 7:50:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

also sprach martin f krafft <alt.cellular.nokia@usenet.madduck.net> [2004.12.20.1645 +0100]:
> > Hasn't been cracked and probably never will be. The algorithm is
> > different and more complicated.
>
> Does anyone have more information on this? As I am a cryptography
> person, I am naturally interested in this.

Context: It has been claimed that the PUK is generated by some
secret algorithm from the SIM number. Sorry for not including this
info in the original thread fork.

- --
martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.)
\____ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:" net@madduck

invalid/expired pgp subkeys? use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver!
spamtraps: madduck.bogus@madduck.net
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 8:45:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

also sprach Richard Colton <webmaster@NOSPAMuselessinfo.org.uk> [2004.12.20.1727 +0100]:
> Nope, it's not as easy as that. Most operators will need more
> information than an account password prior to handing over the PUK
> code (or even discussing the account). The password is just an
> extra layer of security.

It's not a layer. It is part of the "what you know" layer in this
context.

> > How extraordinarily insecure
>
> Well what would you suggest to improve the situation?

Using an asymmetric encryption scheme and PUKs assigned to SIM cards
before the operator "slaps a contract on them". And the sealed
envelope.

> > You have to purchase a new SIM card.
>
> Not too easy if it's a contract SIM card.

Trivial. Takes a day or 10 minutes at the shop. I've just been
through it for two of my SIM cards, after having my wallet stolen
while in a country where I had purchased a local SIM card.

- --
martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.)
\____ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:" net@madduck

invalid/expired pgp subkeys? use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver!
spamtraps: madduck.bogus@madduck.net
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 8:50:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

also sprach Richard Colton <webmaster@NOSPAMuselessinfo.org.uk> [2004.12.20.1736 +0100]:
> > If the provider hands out the PUK over the phone, it's a sign of
> > their incompetence.
>
> Eh? How on earth do you come to that conclusion. The customer is
> entitled to the PUK code

Sure, but not the operator. It's not like they manufacture the SIM
cards. They only attach SIM card numbers to contracts.

If you ask me, then what is happening is that some operators
apparently open the pre-sealed envelopes to retrieve the passwords.

I have a direct contact at Orange, I will inquire when I get
a chance.

> the network operator is providing it after the customer has been
> identified.

Identification is just one of those problems that has not been
solved.

> Your sig sep is semi-broken for starters (it should be dash dash space),

It is dash-dash-space. Maybe your client does not support MIME?

> and your sig is way too long by generally accepted standards (no
> more than four lines). HTH.

These standards are way old. Apart, I have a four line signature (an
empty line does not count). The rest is a digital signature. Welcome
to today, where we don't do things the way they were done 20 years
ago.

Anyway, if you all are really annoyed by this, I will turn them
off... reluctantly.

- --
martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.)
\____ echo mailto: !#^."<*>"|tr "<*> mailto:" net@madduck

invalid/expired pgp subkeys? use subkeys.pgp.net as keyserver!
spamtraps: madduck.bogus@madduck.net
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Anonymous
December 20, 2004 10:40:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

"martin f krafft" <alt.cellular.nokia@usenet.madduck.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.18.1103561136.18553.alt.cellular.nokia@lists.madduck.net...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> also sprach Richard Colton <webmaster@NOSPAMuselessinfo.org.uk>
> [2004.12.20.1727 +0100]:
>> Nope, it's not as easy as that. Most operators will need more
>> information than an account password prior to handing over the PUK
>> code (or even discussing the account). The password is just an
>> extra layer of security.
>
> It's not a layer. It is part of the "what you know" layer in this
> context.

And whilst some of the personal information may be easy to come by, the
password should be a little harder to get.

>> > How extraordinarily insecure
>>
>> Well what would you suggest to improve the situation?
>
> Using an asymmetric encryption scheme and PUKs assigned to SIM cards
> before the operator "slaps a contract on them". And the sealed
> envelope.

PUK's are assigned to SIMs prior to the operator "slapping a contract on
them". Any level of encryption has to be balanced against usability.

>> > You have to purchase a new SIM card.
>>
>> Not too easy if it's a contract SIM card.
>
> Trivial. Takes a day or 10 minutes at the shop.

Maybe in your country, but not in the UK. It can very from a couple of days
to a few weeks depending on the operator, so hardly trivial plus the costs
involved will be substantially higher than maintaining a database of PUK 's.

> I've just been
> through it for two of my SIM cards, after having my wallet stolen
> while in a country where I had purchased a local SIM card.

You have my sympathies.

--
>>> Unlock Your Phone's Potential <<<
>>> www.uselessinfo.org.uk <<<
>>> www.thephonelocker.co.uk <<<
>>> www.gsm-solutions.co.uk <<<
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 10:49:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

"martin f krafft" <alt.cellular.nokia@usenet.madduck.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.19.1103561441.18553.alt.cellular.nokia@lists.madduck.net...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> also sprach Richard Colton <webmaster@NOSPAMuselessinfo.org.uk>
> [2004.12.20.1736 +0100]:
>> > If the provider hands out the PUK over the phone, it's a sign of
>> > their incompetence.
>>
>> Eh? How on earth do you come to that conclusion. The customer is
>> entitled to the PUK code
>
> Sure, but not the operator. It's not like they manufacture the SIM
> cards. They only attach SIM card numbers to contracts.
>
> If you ask me, then what is happening is that some operators
> apparently open the pre-sealed envelopes to retrieve the passwords.

No, they consult the database and retrieve the PUK that is registered
against that given SIM.

> I have a direct contact at Orange, I will inquire when I get
> a chance.
>
>> the network operator is providing it after the customer has been
>> identified.
>
> Identification is just one of those problems that has not been
> solved.

Nor will it ever be 100% secure if it's be be accessible to the end user.

>> Your sig sep is semi-broken for starters (it should be dash dash space),
>
> It is dash-dash-space. Maybe your client does not support MIME?
>
>> and your sig is way too long by generally accepted standards (no
>> more than four lines). HTH.
>
> These standards are way old. Apart, I have a four line signature (an
> empty line does not count). The rest is a digital signature. Welcome
> to today, where we don't do things the way they were done 20 years
> ago.
>
> Anyway, if you all are really annoyed by this, I will turn them
> off... reluctantly.

It doesn't bother me personally that much (unlimited broadband), but it is a
matter of courtesy. Quite a lot of people reading the mobile/cellular
newsgroups in particular do so on mobile devices where they have to pay for
every byte downloaded. I'm fully aware of what your sig is, and what it
contains - I just don't see the need for it to be quite so large. Just
because the standards are old doesn't make them wrong.

--
>>> Unlock Your Phone's Potential <<<
>>> www.uselessinfo.org.uk <<<
>>> www.thephonelocker.co.uk <<<
>>> www.gsm-solutions.co.uk <<<
Anonymous
December 21, 2004 12:09:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.nokia (More info?)

also sprach Richard Colton <webmaster@NOSPAMuselessinfo.org.uk> [2004.12.20.2040 +0100]:
> > Using an asymmetric encryption scheme and PUKs assigned to SIM
> > cards before the operator "slaps a contract on them". And the
> > sealed envelope.
>
> PUK's are assigned to SIMs prior to the operator "slapping
> a contract on them". Any level of encryption has to be balanced
> against usability.

Do you have backing information on this? I fully agree, but I only
now this from hearsay.

> Maybe in your country, but not in the UK. It can very from
> a couple of days to a few weeks depending on the operator, so
> hardly trivial plus the costs involved will be substantially
> higher than maintaining a database of PUK 's.

Ugh.



also sprach Richard Colton <webmaster@NOSPAMuselessinfo.org.uk> [2004.12.20.2049 +0100]:
> > Sure, but not the operator. It's not like they manufacture the
> > SIM cards. They only attach SIM card numbers to contracts.
> >
> > If you ask me, then what is happening is that some operators
> > apparently open the pre-sealed envelopes to retrieve the
> > passwords.
>
> No, they consult the database and retrieve the PUK that is
> registered against that given SIM.

So that database is per-operator or per-SIM-manufacturer?

> > Identification is just one of those problems that has not been
> > solved.
>
> Nor will it ever be 100% secure if it's be be accessible to the
> end user.

True.

> It doesn't bother me personally that much (unlimited broadband),
> but it is a matter of courtesy.

Fair enough. I shall discontinue digitally signing messages.



also sprach Al Klein <CellPhones@optonline.net> [2004.12.20.2107 +0100]:
> Only a very unscrupulous dealer would even try to remember
> customer passwords.

Bystanders could though.



also sprach Al Klein <CellPhones@optonline.net> [2004.12.20.2110 +0100]:
> >Yeah, and you should have gotten it from your operator with the
> >SIM card, and it was assigned to the SIM card before a number had
> >been associated, a contract written, or even a provider known.
>
> And, in the US, not given to the dealer, so the dealer can't give
> it to the customer.

Yeah, same here. It's passed through to the customer on purchase
though, right?

--
martin; (greetings from the heart of the sun.)
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!