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7770 cf or ?????

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a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 5:54:52 PM

Simple question dont worry about my system specs.

For the price is 7770 cf @ 220$ total or somthing else going to be the better bet?


Also Im a cheap arse and it seems these 7xxx cards do well on power saving.

More about : 7770

a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 6:01:45 PM

Sli gtx 560 ti's?
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a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 6:13:35 PM

i agree for $220 you might as well get a GTX 660 or HD 7870
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a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 6:15:25 PM

I hear the 660 is a joke is this true?
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a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 6:26:33 PM

I would go a stage further and say its only worthwhile Cfiring 2 high end cards like 7970s 670s/680s.

Definitely not much point in CF 7770s even if you had 1 already...the 7870 is a far better choice... Its a great card, you have no reason to hate it..

The 660 is a great card too considering how far down the chain it is.... The 650 on the other hand is pretty much a joke...
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a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 6:37:56 PM

I have a few gtx 480s laying around just dont want to watercool them to get better results. But for the money I will spend watercooling wont the 480 be a better card?
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September 28, 2012 6:39:50 PM

also, rule of thumb... NEVER go for a crossfire or SLI over a single card config. Microstuttering and such will occur.

However, if you got a card now and got an identical one down the road b/c they're cheap, that's a different story.
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a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 6:41:05 PM

BigMack70 said:
This thread is making less and less sense as we go along... I don't even know what you're talking about. :heink: 

Why are you bothering with 7770s when you have a "few" GTX 480s laying around?



Read up a few post trying to conserve powergtx 480 takes way to much
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a c 271 U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 6:44:46 PM

misclik said:
also, rule of thumb... NEVER go for a crossfire or SLI over a single card config. Microstuttering and such will occur.

However, if you got a card now and got an identical one down the road b/c they're cheap, that's a different story.

I'm not seeing that with my SLi rig, so is it fair to say that as soon as dual GPU rigs are mentioned the idiots will appear? :whistle: 
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a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 6:47:22 PM

Mousemonkey said:
I'm not seeing that with my SLi rig, so is it fair to say that as soon as dual GPU rigs are mentioned the idiots will appear? :whistle: 



I have 2 gtx 480s laying around there the same model. The only issue I have with these is the temp and power consumption. Also I know I will need a better psu to run these. What is the minimum Psu that will work with these cards?
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a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 6:48:21 PM

Additionally, 7770 Crossfire (~$220 minimum) performs roughly on par with a single 570. A 7850 (~$160 minimum) performs just under a 570. Not sure what you've got against the 78XX series as they're the best mid-range value currently, but okay.

And if you're trying to save power, Crossfire/SLI is not the way to go.
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a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 6:51:51 PM

Lol, Love the anger. Anyway I have the 480's from a older build once the build was scraped I put them in storage. To sell them why? you can buy new one right now for170$ so Im not going to take a hit like that would rather use them or let them rot.
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a c 271 U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 7:09:26 PM

cia24 said:
I have 2 gtx 480s laying around there the same model. The only issue I have with these is the temp and power consumption. Also I know I will need a better psu to run these. What is the minimum Psu that will work with these cards?

Considering that the cards alone are going to need at least 520-530w plus whatever else the PC has, a meaty one.
BigMack70 said:
Why did you buy/acquire multiple 480s in the first place if you didn't want to use lots of power? Why are you talking about water cooling them if you are worried about power draw? Why not sell them?

Why in the world was 7770 CF the first idea you got for an alternative setup?

None of that makes any sense at all. The answer to your original question is: "Buy a GTX 660 or HD 7870 instead of 7770 CF". End of story. Feel free to ignore it, but that's the answer to your question.

And yes, mouse, microstutter is inherent to EVERY multi-GPU setup. Take a look at ANY of techreport's dual-GPU testing, and you'll see that it's there. Rather or not you notice it and rather or not it's bad enough to be noticeable are different questions, but it's always there. Tick that checkbox for "frametimes" in FRAPS and run some tests on your own if you don't believe me.


FRAPS itself could be the cause of any stuttering as it's superfluous to the game or app being run, I go by what my eyes can see and they do not see this microstuttering of which you speak.
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a c 271 U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 7:13:18 PM

BigMack70 said:
Ignorance is bliss mouse.

What? The ignorance that running an app in the background that is using CPU cycles could be causing issues that are wrongly interpreted? Yeah right. :pfff: 
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a c 271 U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 7:21:36 PM

BigMack70 said:
If you had any evidence to back your claims, I might believe you. It's like people who deny the moon landing... you can make anything sound plausible if you ignore the evidence :lol: 

I have my eyes and they're good enough for me, graphs from random websites claiming a 0.00000001 ms drop between frames is meaningless IMO.
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a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 7:39:41 PM

I think it all depends on the cards and game. The low end 6xxx's of last gen suffered quite badly from it in certain titles, mainly BF3..

I have 2 570's and have never noticed anything visually, I think a lot of the time its over hyped and much of the info is regurgitated...

Still... In releation to what the OP is asking... I think we could all agree that CF 7770's is fairly pointless as the 7870 is the same price if not slightly cheaper... If nothing else its not worth the extra heat...

2 480's would be great, it will need a fairly decent 750/800w+ PSU, but its going to be your best value option at the moment....
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a c 271 U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 7:42:17 PM

BigMack70 said:
I bet your eyes didn't see the moon landing ;) 

No, because I was just over a year old at the time. ;) 
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a c 271 U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 8:29:32 PM

BigMack70 said:
Just goes to show ya... just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it isn't true :kaola: 

But as far as this microstuttering issue is concerned, I do have an SLi rig and I am not seeing it. And that is the truth.
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a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 8:33:47 PM

This HIS 7870 2GB is back on sale for 199.99 with free shipping after a 20 dollar MIR at newegg:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Besides micro stuttering, some games don't support crossfire/sli. Your driver will work harder than normal trying to make it work, leading to performance
worse than one card alone. 7870 is faster than 7770 cf because it has double everything on the 7770 and the same clocks(higher vram clocks, actually).

Also, 1GB vram is already a bottleneck for certain settings in some games, and I imagine the 1.5 on a gtx480 may be after not too long as well. the 2GB
frame buffer on a 7870 will be more future proof for you. If you are overclocking(and you should be with a 28nm gpu), you will use less power with one
7870 versus 2 7770s. I say that because barring card modifications and water cooling, you won't go past 121w or so on each 7770(oc to 1250 plus 10%
voltage) and 7870 won't go past 225w(limit from combo of peg slot and 2 6pin connectors without modding and water cooling). Fewer fans, too.
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a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 8:35:49 PM

@mousemonkey: some folks notice micro stuttering worse than others. It depends on the cards, too. Fermi based cards were pretty bad about it, GCN
cards less so, and kepler cards are pretty smooth. Not sure about pre gcn cards on the amd side tho.
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a c 271 U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 8:36:59 PM

jtenorj said:
This HIS 7870 2GB is back on sale for 199.99 with free shipping after a 20 dollar MIR at newegg:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Besides micro stuttering, some games don't support crossfire/sli. Your driver will work harder than normal trying to make it work, leading to performance
worse than one card alone. 7870 is faster than 7770 cf because it has double everything on the 7770 and the same clocks(higher vram clocks, actually).

Also, 1GB vram is already a bottleneck for certain settings in some games, and I imagine the 1.5 on a gtx480 may be after not too long as well. the 2GB
frame buffer on a 7870 will be more future proof for you. If you are overclocking(and you should be with a 28nm gpu), you will use less power with one
7870 versus 2 7770s. I say that because barring card modifications and water cooling, you won't go past 121w or so on each 7770(oc to 1250 plus 10%
voltage) and 7870 won't go past 225w(limit from combo of peg slot and 2 6pin connectors without modding and water cooling). Fewer fans, too.

That may be the case for CF but as far as SLi is concerned the game will only use one card and the driver will not be 'overworked'. :pfff: 
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a c 271 U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 8:38:29 PM

jtenorj said:
@mousemonkey: some folks notice micro stuttering worse than others. It depends on the cards, too. Fermi based cards were pretty bad about it, GCN
cards less so, and kepler cards are pretty smooth. Not sure about pre gcn cards on the amd side tho.

My cards are Fermi based and I'm not seeing it, it was also not present with my 8800GT's or 7900GT's.
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a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 8:42:14 PM

I'm pretty sure that it was VLIW5, not Fermi, that was especially bad about micro-stutter.
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a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 8:45:08 PM

jtenorj said:
This HIS 7870 2GB is back on sale for 199.99 with free shipping after a 20 dollar MIR at newegg:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Besides micro stuttering, some games don't support crossfire/sli. Your driver will work harder than normal trying to make it work, leading to performance
worse than one card alone. 7870 is faster than 7770 cf because it has double everything on the 7770 and the same clocks(higher vram clocks, actually).

Also, 1GB vram is already a bottleneck for certain settings in some games, and I imagine the 1.5 on a gtx480 may be after not too long as well. the 2GB
frame buffer on a 7870 will be more future proof for you. If you are overclocking(and you should be with a 28nm gpu), you will use less power with one
7870 versus 2 7770s. I say that because barring card modifications and water cooling, you won't go past 121w or so on each 7770(oc to 1250 plus 10%
voltage) and 7870 won't go past 225w(limit from combo of peg slot and 2 6pin connectors without modding and water cooling). Fewer fans, too.


I can name only four modern games that have issues with CF and only two of them have problems related to instability/negative scaling, the other two simply scale poorly (still not negatively) and do so in SLI as well.

Although I wouldn't get them, two 480s rarely have VRAM capacity issues except maybe at 2560x1600 in a few games and in triple 1080p or above in more games, both obviously depending on the settings (might need heavy AA to have serious issues). 2GB is more future-proofed, but that doesn't take away from what 1.5GB can do, it only adds onto it.

Two 7770s and a single 7870 would be pretty darned close. I highly doubt that you'd see the difference between them in most situations. The 7870 has slightly better specs, but remember that doubling the core count in a single GPU doesn't necessarily double GPU performance, but two cards that each have a GPU that is half of a single higher end GPU can scale better, so two 7770s and a single 7870 are probably extremely close. The 7770's 1GB of frame buffer is very likely to be an issue and that is a valid complaint. Having to have two cards when one card can do the job about equally well and can be cheaper is another strike against the 7770s. There are 2GB 7770 models, but they're very overpriced such as the Asus 7770 2GB that is still like $160 IIRC.
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a c 271 U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 8:50:23 PM

luciferano said:
I'm pretty sure that it was VLIW5, not Fermi, that was especially bad about micro-stutter.

That would be ATi/AMD IIRC, would it not? :whistle: 
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a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 8:52:37 PM

Mousemonkey said:
That would be ATi/AMD IIRC, would it not? :whistle: 


My experience with VLIW4/GCN dual-GPU configurations was a huge improvement over VLIW5 in this and more, so I wouldn't generalize it like that.
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a c 271 U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 8:58:55 PM

luciferano said:
My experience with VLIW4/GCN dual-GPU configurations was a huge improvement over VLIW5 in this and more, so I wouldn't generalize it like that.

I don't recall VLIW being an Nvidia thing though, did I miss something?
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a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 8:59:18 PM

BigMack70 said:
No. It's one of Nvidia's 2 recommendable cards from the GTX 6xx series alongside the GTX 670. It has performance between the 7850 and 7870.

I don't know where you're getting your information but it all sounds backwards... 7770 CF being a good idea, the 78xx series being lousy, and the 660 being a joke... that's pretty much all wrong.



THIS
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September 28, 2012 8:59:31 PM

never get a card that your ging to instantly cf. put the total price together and get somthing nice.
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a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 9:02:14 PM

BigMack70 said:
This thread is making less and less sense as we go along... I don't even know what you're talking about. :heink: 

Why are you bothering with 7770s when you have a "few" GTX 480s laying around?



ALSO THIS

OP you have 2x480 and you are asking about 7770 Is your PSU not up to it ?

if your not into them sell em both and get a 660 and beer for a week or two.

or sell them and save another 100 for a 670
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a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 9:06:00 PM

jtenorj said:
@mousemonkey: some folks notice micro stuttering worse than others. It depends on the cards, too. Fermi based cards were pretty bad about it, GCN
cards less so, and kepler cards are pretty smooth. Not sure about pre gcn cards on the amd side tho.



480's should not micro stutter.

From reading not experience that issue seems to happen with 6870 and lower but somehow not as much with the 560 (non ti I've seen them it seemed fine)

Personally im looking at a 660 next payday
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a c 271 U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 9:13:43 PM

awesomedude911 said:
never get a card that your ging to instantly cf. put the total price together and get somthing nice.

I prefer to "ging" with SLi from the get go if the combined cost cards is less than the flagship card of the range whilst giving better performance, and so far so good.
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a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 9:14:43 PM

Mousemonkey said:
I don't recall VLIW being an Nvidia thing though, did I miss something?


AMD also didn't have WHQL 196.75 burning their cards, but that doesn't mean that all Nvidia drivers burn cards (or even that there is a single other driver since that one that had this issue). Not all Ati/AMD GPU archs had major stutter issues, so saying that it's an Ati/AMD issue is misleadingly implying that it's a general problem with Ati/AMD, not a problem related to a specific architecture.
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a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 9:17:43 PM

Mousemonkey said:
I prefer to "ging" with SLi from the get go if the combined cost cards is less than the flagship card of the range whilst giving better performance, and so far so good.


That would depend on your sensitivity to micro-stutter. You say that you don't see it with your cards, so what you did was probably the better buy for you.
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a c 271 U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 9:28:58 PM

luciferano said:
AMD also didn't have WHQL 196.75 burning their cards, but that doesn't mean that all Nvidia drivers burn cards (or even that there is a single other driver since that one that had this issue). Not all Ati/AMD GPU archs had major stutter issues, so saying that it's an Ati/AMD issue is misleadingly implying that it's a general problem with Ati/AMD, not a problem related to a specific architecture.

And Nvidia didn't have the GSOD/vertical line issue that they refused to acknowledge even though it rendered cards useless, does that mean all ATi/AMD cards will suffer from the same problem?
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a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 9:37:14 PM

Mousemonkey said:
And Nvidia didn't have the GSOD/vertical line issue that they refused to acknowledge even though it rendered cards useless, does that mean all ATi/AMD cards will suffer from the same problem?


Why are you trying to make this into an AMD versus Nvidia argument?
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a c 271 U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 10:12:56 PM

luciferano said:
Why are you trying to make this into an AMD versus Nvidia argument?

I'm not, you were the one who mentioned VLIW5 and I just asked if that was an AMD/ATi thing and from there you went on a bit of a wig out. All you had to do was was confirm or refute but instead you decided to bring up the (seriously old and single) driver issue, to me that alone says that I twanged a nerve.
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a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 10:16:07 PM

I think a point mousemonkey made should be stated again. If you can get 2 cards that will perform better than a more expensive single card, get the
two cards. However, a 200 dollar 7870 is cheaper than 2 100+ 7770s and faster(and in this case it includes a free game... sleeping dogs). No brainer.

Edit: we just passed 50 posts on this thread. Also, once your 7870 is up and running, you could sell your gtx480s. 7870's overclock pretty well too.
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a c 271 U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 10:20:29 PM

jtenorj said:
I think a point mousemonkey made should be stated again. If you can get 2 cards that will perform better than a more expensive single card, get the
two cards. However, a 200 dollar 7870 is cheaper than 2 100+ 7770s and faster(and in this case it includes a free game... sleeping dogs). No brainer.

Unless of course a console port does not appeal to the OP in which case it's back to the wondering what card(s) to get. :whistle: 
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a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 10:34:33 PM

Why wonder? a 200 dollar 7870 is faster and cheaper than 2 7770s. If the OP doesn't like sleeping dogs, they can sell it for an even better deal.

I sure wouldn't want 2 hot and loud gtx480s in my rig(but 1 would be a vast improvement over the circa y2k geforce 2 mx I'm forced to use atm).
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a c 271 U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 10:49:24 PM

jtenorj said:
Why wonder? a 200 dollar 7870 is faster and cheaper than 2 7770s. If the OP doesn't like sleeping dogs, they can sell it for an even better deal.

I sure wouldn't want 2 hot and loud gtx480s in my rig(but 1 would be a vast improvement over the circa y2k geforce 2 mx I'm forced to use atm).

I was just trying to point out that a free game is not always a good reason to buy a certain card, I would not buy a 660Ti simply because I could get a copy of Borderlands 2 and I am sure that many others feel the same way. A graphic card should be judged on its own merits and the drivers required to run that card, nothing else.
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a b U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 11:18:51 PM

That's true. As far as drivers go, both amd and nvidia have had their share of problems(both in the past and more recently). As far as merit of a card
is concerned, that can be seen in different ways(performance, price, power, heat , noise, features, physical size, looks if going in a windowed case,...).

For the price/value angle, 2 similarly performing cards at a similar price can be very different deals if one card ships with one or more games you like
(or can sell for profit) versus the other card that doesn't. If the one card didn't ship with a game(or three), then it might cost less,which would be better
price/performance compared to the other card. A game has usually got to be worth at least 20 bucks(if not more), so that tips the value scale in 7870's
favor(in this case, at least). Not to mention that it's 200 shipped after a 20 dollar MIR(while 2 7770s will set you back at least 230 after rebates) and
7870 is faster than 7770 crossfire. Perhaps despite power/heat/noise, the HD2900 pro @300 was a better deal than 8800gts640 @350 cuz it could over-
clock to HD2900xt speeds(as fast as or faster than 8800gts640) and came with a coupon for the black box( 3 out of the five games in the 50 dollar
orange box ie hl2 ep2, tf2 and portal). Granted tf2 is now free to play but that is just an illustration.
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a c 271 U Graphics card
September 28, 2012 11:33:47 PM

jtenorj said:
That's true. As far as drivers go, both amd and nvidia have had their share of problems(both in the past and more recently). As far as merit of a card
is concerned, that can be seen in different ways(performance, price, power, heat , noise, features, physical size, looks if going in a windowed case,...).

For the price/value angle, 2 similarly performing cards at a similar price can be very different deals if one card ships with one or more games you like
(or can sell for profit) versus the other card that doesn't. If the one card didn't ship with a game(or three), then it might cost less,which would be better
price/performance compared to the other card. A game has usually got to be worth at least 20 bucks(if not more), so that tips the value scale in 7870's
favor(in this case, at least). Not to mention that it's 200 shipped after a 20 dollar MIR(while 2 7770s will set you back at least 230 after rebates) and
7870 is faster than 7770 crossfire. Perhaps despite power/heat/noise, the HD2900 pro @300 was a better deal than 8800gts640 @350 cuz it could over-
clock to HD2900xt speeds(as fast as or faster than 8800gts640) and came with a coupon for the black box( 3 out of the five games in the 50 dollar
orange box ie hl2 ep2, tf2 and portal). Granted tf2 is now free to play but that is just an illustration.

Hmm, you seem to forget that not everyone OC's, I don't bother and there any many others don't or won't for various reasons so that is not really a selling point.
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a b U Graphics card
September 29, 2012 12:08:11 AM

Mousemonkey said:
I'm not, you were the one who mentioned VLIW5 and I just asked if that was an AMD/ATi thing and from there you went on a bit of a wig out. All you had to do was was confirm or refute but instead you decided to bring up the (seriously old and single) driver issue, to me that alone says that I twanged a nerve.



Apologies, I may have misunderstood you. If the question was whether or not Nvidia used VLIW, then I'd say that I don't think that Nvidia ever used VLIW.
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a b U Graphics card
September 29, 2012 12:19:49 AM

Anyway
are the current drivers for the gtx 480. Also I could care less about a free game. At this point I would prefer to stock with nvidia
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a b U Graphics card
September 29, 2012 12:27:06 AM

cia24 said:
Anyway
are the current drivers for the gtx 480. Also I could care less about a free game. At this point I would prefer to stock with nvidia


Are you trying to ask a question?

Info on the drivers, the 480 should work with the most recent Nvidia drivers IIRC. My 8500 GT works with the most recent driver, so I'd expect something from Nvidia that is several years newer to work with them too.
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a b U Graphics card
September 29, 2012 12:47:28 AM

gtx480 isn't a legacy part yet(it is dx11, after all). Before unified shaders(dx10), both amd and nvidia used vectorized shaders. With amd it was vec4+1
(very similar to if not the same as vliw5 with 4 normal 32bit rgba units and one fat unit for transcendental math) and nvidia used either vec4 or vec 3+1.

Then again, they both used to have separate pixel and vertex shaders. I know vertices may require special math while pixels are dealt with more using
colors and transparency. If the shaders were a little different between pixel and vertex, something had to change in going to a unified architecture so that
all units could perform all the required calculations. It doesn't matter much now since amd and nvidia have become so similar inside again(like they used
to be so relatively many years ago). I'd go with amd myself since I hold little stock in physx(the only real thing separating the 2 companies). Higher end
radeons like 7950 and 7970 have a wider memory path(less important nowadays) and a 3GB frame buffer(more important to have more in that department
as time keeps on slippin' slippin' slippin' into the future). Also, it's practically a crime not to at least try overclocking these new 28nm cards. The gpu inside
positively begs you to do so(more on amd's 7750 and 7850/7870 than on nvidia's gtx650 and gtx660 non ti at their respective price/performance levels).

Price performance wise, 7770 and 7850 are in classes by themselves( and you can count 7870 with those when it's on sale for 200 bucks).

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September 29, 2012 1:17:54 AM

umm if he has those 2 480s why not just buy a better psu to run them both in sli instead of getting the 7770s the 7870 or a 660 he would have about 40-60 bucks more in his pocket but yes the power consumption would be pretty bad but hey if hes not gonna sell them then why not?
for example this psu http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... decent reviews enough juice to power the 2 480s and everything else such as cpu mobo fans stuff like that and for about 80 bucks cheaper than cf 7770 120 bucks cheaper than a 7870 and 100 bucks cheaper than a 660 so theres my input :) 
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