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Busted Microdisk - Suggestions?

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Anonymous
March 30, 2005 10:27:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

I was doing a location photographic job for somebody today, with my Nikon
D1X, and after finishing a batch of shots that took a while to set up and
arrange I pushed the shutter release and nothing happened. I looked at the
display and it was flashing an error, "CD" for card, I think. I had my one
and only, one Gig card in, and it definitely wasn't full.

I changed to a 128mb smartcard, and all was well. I thought I'd recover
the images from the 1 gig card when I got back.

But all I get from the Nikon software (is it Capture or View?) is some
"unexpected result" error message.... and I noticed that if you give the
card a gentle shake a faint rattle can be heard - don't know if its always
been there, as I very seldom need to remove the card from the camera.

Now I'm more than willing to admit it when I think I've cocked-up
(mostly!) but the camera was on a tripod, one short worked, the next
didn't, with no impacts in between. I've never had a card fail on me
before - how common is this?

And, is there any hope of recovering the images on the suspect card? Its
not the end of the world or anything, but it would be nice. :) 

Thanks for any advice.


All the best,
Angus Manwaring. (for e-mail remove ANTISPEM)

I need your memories for the Amiga Games Database: A collection of Amiga
Game reviews by Amiga players http://www.angusm.demon.co.uk/AGDB/AGDB.html
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 10:27:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Angus Manwaring wrote:

> I was doing a location photographic job for somebody today, with my Nikon
> D1X, and after finishing a batch of shots that took a while to set up and
> arrange I pushed the shutter release and nothing happened. I looked at the
> display and it was flashing an error, "CD" for card, I think. I had my one
> and only, one Gig card in, and it definitely wasn't full.

Ask Tom Scales and John Francis. They have more faith in these things
than we do.

Cheers,
Alan.


--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 10:27:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Alan Browne wrote:
> Angus Manwaring wrote:
>
> > I was doing a location photographic job for somebody today, with my
Nikon
> > D1X, and after finishing a batch of shots that took a while to set
up and
> > arrange I pushed the shutter release and nothing happened. I looked
at the
> > display and it was flashing an error, "CD" for card, I think. I had
my one
> > and only, one Gig card in, and it definitely wasn't full.
>
> Ask Tom Scales and John Francis. They have more faith in these
things
> than we do.
>
> Cheers,
> Alan.
>From his post I don't think he really meant micodrive but rather a CF
card.
I don't know of any microdrive as small as 1 gig.

Scott
Related resources
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 10:27:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Scott W wrote:
> Alan Browne wrote:
> > Angus Manwaring wrote:
> >
> > > I was doing a location photographic job for somebody today, with
my
> Nikon
> > > D1X, and after finishing a batch of shots that took a while to
set
> up and
> > > arrange I pushed the shutter release and nothing happened. I
looked
> at the
> > > display and it was flashing an error, "CD" for card, I think. I
had
> my one
> > > and only, one Gig card in, and it definitely wasn't full.
> >
> > Ask Tom Scales and John Francis. They have more faith in these
> things
> > than we do.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Alan.
> >From his post I don't think he really meant micodrive but rather a
CF
> card.
> I don't know of any microdrive as small as 1 gig.
>

They started out smaller than 1 GB. 340MB, I believe. Just a year ago
the 1 GB ones were still popular.

Greg
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 10:27:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Scott W wrote:


>>From his post I don't think he really meant micodrive but rather a CF
> card.
> I don't know of any microdrive as small as 1 gig.

"IBM began the Microdrive storage device revolution with their first
340MB capacity CompactFlash Type II miniature rotating disk drive. Next
came the 512MB Microdrive and then the 1GB Microdrive."

http://www.steves-digicams.com/microdrive.html

Cheers,
Alan

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 11:21:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On 30 Mar 2005 18:27:46 +0000, in rec.photo.digital.slr-systems "Angus
Manwaring" <angus@angusm_ANTISPEM_.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>I was doing a location photographic job for somebody today, with my Nikon
>D1X, and after finishing a batch of shots that took a while to set up and
>arrange I pushed the shutter release and nothing happened. I looked at the
>display and it was flashing an error, "CD" for card, I think. I had my one
>and only, one Gig card in, and it definitely wasn't full.

Is this a Compact Flash card or a microdisc?
>
>I changed to a 128mb smartcard, and all was well. I thought I'd recover
>the images from the 1 gig card when I got back.

??? The D1X doesn't support smart cards by my reading of the manual.

>But all I get from the Nikon software (is it Capture or View?) is some
>"unexpected result" error message.... and I noticed that if you give the
>card a gentle shake a faint rattle can be heard - don't know if its always
>been there, as I very seldom need to remove the card from the camera.

If this is a microdisk it doesn't sound good.

>Now I'm more than willing to admit it when I think I've cocked-up
>(mostly!) but the camera was on a tripod, one short worked, the next
>didn't, with no impacts in between. I've never had a card fail on me
>before - how common is this?

Compact flash I've never had fail. Microdisc I've never used.

>And, is there any hope of recovering the images on the suspect card? Its
>not the end of the world or anything, but it would be nice. :) 

It this is a physically failed microdisc you could try one of the disk
drive recovery centers, not cheap though.
----------
Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
See images taken with my CP-990/5700 & D70 at
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index...
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 11:59:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

"Scott W" <biphoto@hotmail.com> writes:

> I don't know of any microdrive as small as 1 gig.

The original microdrive was a 340MB. The 1gig one was the *big* one
that came out a while later.

All of which was some time ago, and I don't think anybody bothers to
make microdrives that small *today*, given how cheap compact flash
that large is *today*.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:D d-b@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/&gt;
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/&gt; <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/&gt;
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/&gt; <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/&gt;
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/&gt;
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 1:27:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

John Francis wrote:
> In article <d2fkf2$3nm$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
> Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> >John Francis wrote:
> >
> >> In article <d2ffpt$rko$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
> >> Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> >>
> >>>John Francis wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>And, of course, you've never seen a CF failure ...
> >>>
> >>>Personally, no I haven't. Nor have I heard of any from anyone with
CF
> >>>cards that I know (a bunch). I have heard on the newsgroup of
many
> >>>microdisk failures, and very few CF failues.
> >>>
> >>>But you spend your money where you like, 'kay?
> >>
> >>
> >> Oh, I shall. You keep spreading FUD without evidence, 'kay?
> >
> >I don't have to. The evidence is clear 'nuf.
>
> OK - produce some.
>
> I've seen lots and lots of anecdotal claims, but nobody ever
> shows figures to back them up. If Microdrives were such an
> obvious risk, there ought to be clear evidence to support this.
> But when you ask for the evidence, all you ever get is claims
> that it's obvious, so no evidence is needed.
>
> If it were so obvious, there should be *some* evidence, somewhere.
>
> Without evidence, you're just rumour-mongering. It's just one of
> those things that 'everybody knows', which may turn out to be untrue.
>
> After all, not only do you have to show that a Microdrive has a
> higher failure rate than a similar-capacity CF card under use
> conditions typical of a digital camera - you have to show that that
> difference is significant in terms of putting the images at risk.

It seems pretty easy to find data regarding the failure of microdrive
and not surprising they do fail more then CF cards, what else would you
expect.

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-6...

CF cards are so cheap that for me I am not will to risk the use of a
mircodrive, I have no need to. Other who need more then a couple of
gigs storage might feel differently

Scott
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 1:56:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On 30 Mar 2005 13:16:21 -0800, "Scott W" <biphoto@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>Alan Browne wrote:
>> Angus Manwaring wrote:
>>
>> > I was doing a location photographic job for somebody today, with my
>Nikon
>> > D1X, and after finishing a batch of shots that took a while to set
>up and
>> > arrange I pushed the shutter release and nothing happened. I looked
>at the
>> > display and it was flashing an error, "CD" for card, I think. I had
>my one
>> > and only, one Gig card in, and it definitely wasn't full.
>>
>> Ask Tom Scales and John Francis. They have more faith in these
>things
>> than we do.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Alan.
>>From his post I don't think he really meant micodrive but rather a CF
>card.
>I don't know of any microdrive as small as 1 gig.

Now, you do. Hitachi makes one.

http://www.flash-memory-store.com/1gbibmmiccf1.html


*****************************************************

"Vietnam is what we had instead of happy childhoods."

Tim Page in
"Dispatches"
by Michael Herr
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 3:49:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

In article <d2esb5$bo6$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>Ask Tom Scales and John Francis. They have more faith in these things
>than we do.


And, of course, you've never seen a CF failure ...
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 3:49:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

John Francis wrote:


> And, of course, you've never seen a CF failure ...

Personally, no I haven't. Nor have I heard of any from anyone with CF
cards that I know (a bunch). I have heard on the newsgroup of many
microdisk failures, and very few CF failues.

But you spend your money where you like, 'kay?

Cheers,
Alan




--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 4:29:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On 30 Mar 2005 13:16:21 -0800, "Scott W" <biphoto@hotmail.com> wrote:

>>From his post I don't think he really meant micodrive but rather a CF
>card.
>I don't know of any microdrive as small as 1 gig.
>
When I bought my D70 about a year ago, the salesman gave me a 380
Mbyte microdrive. It still said IBM on it, but he said th eHitachi man
had given it to him as a sample. I didn't get another card until a
month ago.

So they did exist.



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"Biologists think they are chemists, chemists think they are phycisists,
physicists think they are gods, and God thinks He is a mathematician." Anon
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 5:34:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

In article <d2ffpt$rko$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>John Francis wrote:
>
>
>> And, of course, you've never seen a CF failure ...
>
>Personally, no I haven't. Nor have I heard of any from anyone with CF
>cards that I know (a bunch). I have heard on the newsgroup of many
>microdisk failures, and very few CF failues.
>
>But you spend your money where you like, 'kay?

Oh, I shall. You keep spreading FUD without evidence, 'kay?
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 5:34:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

John Francis wrote:

> In article <d2ffpt$rko$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
> Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>John Francis wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>And, of course, you've never seen a CF failure ...
>>
>>Personally, no I haven't. Nor have I heard of any from anyone with CF
>>cards that I know (a bunch). I have heard on the newsgroup of many
>>microdisk failures, and very few CF failues.
>>
>>But you spend your money where you like, 'kay?
>
>
> Oh, I shall. You keep spreading FUD without evidence, 'kay?

I don't have to. The evidence is clear 'nuf. Solid state doesn't break
as easily as moving parts. Something the time keeping industry figured
out 40 years ago.

The only justification for disk drives is they're cheaper and that's
where they sit in the market. If they were as good as solid state they
would sell at a higher price as there would be no reason to have a lower
price.

Have fun.

Cheers,
Alan
--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 6:00:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

In article <d2fkf2$3nm$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>John Francis wrote:
>
>> In article <d2ffpt$rko$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
>> Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>John Francis wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>And, of course, you've never seen a CF failure ...
>>>
>>>Personally, no I haven't. Nor have I heard of any from anyone with CF
>>>cards that I know (a bunch). I have heard on the newsgroup of many
>>>microdisk failures, and very few CF failues.
>>>
>>>But you spend your money where you like, 'kay?
>>
>>
>> Oh, I shall. You keep spreading FUD without evidence, 'kay?
>
>I don't have to. The evidence is clear 'nuf.

OK - produce some.

I've seen lots and lots of anecdotal claims, but nobody ever
shows figures to back them up. If Microdrives were such an
obvious risk, there ought to be clear evidence to support this.
But when you ask for the evidence, all you ever get is claims
that it's obvious, so no evidence is needed.

If it were so obvious, there should be *some* evidence, somewhere.

Without evidence, you're just rumour-mongering. It's just one of
those things that 'everybody knows', which may turn out to be untrue.

After all, not only do you have to show that a Microdrive has a
higher failure rate than a similar-capacity CF card under use
conditions typical of a digital camera - you have to show that that
difference is significant in terms of putting the images at risk.
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 6:00:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

John Francis wrote:
> In article <d2fkf2$3nm$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
> Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>John Francis wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article <d2ffpt$rko$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
>>>Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>John Francis wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>And, of course, you've never seen a CF failure ...
>>>>
>>>>Personally, no I haven't. Nor have I heard of any from anyone with CF
>>>>cards that I know (a bunch). I have heard on the newsgroup of many
>>>>microdisk failures, and very few CF failues.
>>>>
>>>>But you spend your money where you like, 'kay?
>>>
>>>
>>>Oh, I shall. You keep spreading FUD without evidence, 'kay?
>>
>>I don't have to. The evidence is clear 'nuf.
>
>
> OK - produce some.
>
> I've seen lots and lots of anecdotal claims, but nobody ever
> shows figures to back them up. If Microdrives were such an
> obvious risk, there ought to be clear evidence to support this.
> But when you ask for the evidence, all you ever get is claims
> that it's obvious, so no evidence is needed.
>
> If it were so obvious, there should be *some* evidence, somewhere.

Well you show me the evidence that Microdrives are as reliable. Please.

The price says it all: If microdrives were as good they would fetch the
higher price of CF.

Cheers,
Alan.

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
March 31, 2005 1:47:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

>
> But all I get from the Nikon software (is it Capture or View?) is some
> "unexpected result" error message.... and I noticed that if you give the
> card a gentle shake a faint rattle can be heard - don't know if its always
> been there, as I very seldom need to remove the card from the camera.

Don't know of a cure, but my IBM 340MB microdrive has always had a 'faint
rattle' if you shake it, never been a problem.
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 2:04:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

With a very long history of mechanical devices being much less reliable
then electric there is a heavy burden of proof on a microdrive to show
that it is in fact as reliable as a CF card. I have not seen any hard
data one way or the other but statements by the manufacture about MTBF
does not tell the whole story. For myself I an leery of putting a hard
drive in my camera, I can't say for sure that the microdrive will
fail more then a CF card but I can be pretty sure that if one does fail
more then the other it would be the microdrive.

With 1 Gig CF cards getting pretty cheap, for the kind of shooting I
do, I have no reason to use a microdrive. Other's may have different
needs and I don't think their use of a microdrive is unreasonable,
but I do think it is a bit of a stretch to try and say that there is no
need to worry about them.

Scott
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 7:45:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On 30-Mar-05 18:49:13, Alan Browne said
>Angus Manwaring wrote:

>> I was doing a location photographic job for somebody today, with my Nikon
>> D1X, and after finishing a batch of shots that took a while to set up and
>> arrange I pushed the shutter release and nothing happened. I looked at the
>> display and it was flashing an error, "CD" for card, I think. I had my one
>> and only, one Gig card in, and it definitely wasn't full.

>Ask Tom Scales and John Francis. They have more faith in these things
>than we do.


Yeah, I mean why let a perfectly reasonable question get in the way of
fully-fledged agenda?

All the best,
Angus Manwaring. (for e-mail remove ANTISPEM)

I need your memories for the Amiga Games Database: A collection of Amiga
Game reviews by Amiga players http://www.angusm.demon.co.uk/AGDB/AGDB.html
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 7:45:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Angus Manwaring wrote:

> Yeah, I mean why let a perfectly reasonable question get in the way of
> fully-fledged agenda?

Yep. Guilty as charged. Microdrives cost less becasue they are failure
probabilty compromised and can only be sold at lower price.

Who would buy such a thing if a solid state device of the same capacity
existed at the same price?

Cheers,
Alan

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 7:45:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Alan Browne wrote:
> Angus Manwaring wrote:
>
>> Yeah, I mean why let a perfectly reasonable question get in the way
>> of fully-fledged agenda?
>
> Yep. Guilty as charged. Microdrives cost less becasue they are
> failure probabilty compromised and can only be sold at lower price.

Or maybe just because they are a little slower than current solid state
devices? Or cheaper to produce?

> Who would buy such a thing if a solid state device of the same
> capacity existed at the same price?

I had a limited budget, and required capacity more than speed - so far
not regretting my Hitachi 4GB microdrives. I will toss a crow in the
freezer for later consumption if the need arises...

Bob ^,,^
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 7:48:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On 30-Mar-05 21:16:21, Scott W said
>Alan Browne wrote:
>> Angus Manwaring wrote:
>>
>> > I was doing a location photographic job for somebody today, with my
>Nikon
>> > D1X, and after finishing a batch of shots that took a while to set
>up and
>> > arrange I pushed the shutter release and nothing happened. I looked
>at the
>> > display and it was flashing an error, "CD" for card, I think. I had
>my one
>> > and only, one Gig card in, and it definitely wasn't full.
>>
>> Ask Tom Scales and John Francis. They have more faith in these
>things
>> than we do.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Alan.
>>From his post I don't think he really meant micodrive but rather a CF
>card.
>I don't know of any microdrive as small as 1 gig.

I was actually after useful information, but I seem to have walked into
some kind of willy-waving tournament. :-/

All the best,
Angus Manwaring. (for e-mail remove ANTISPEM)

I need your memories for the Amiga Games Database: A collection of Amiga
Game reviews by Amiga players http://www.angusm.demon.co.uk/AGDB/AGDB.html
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 7:48:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Angus Manwaring wrote:

> I was actually after useful information, but I seem to have walked into
> some kind of willy-waving tournament. :-/

My willy will wave longer than your willy. Already has. Your willy is
dead. My willy is rising to the occasion.

Maybe there's Drivagra to help your drive the next time you're aroused
but your willy won't rise...?

(All in good humor. We can't help with your problem but we can make you
regret buying the drive ... or at least make you regret confessing your
sins here...)

Cheers,
Alan


--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 7:55:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On 31-Mar-05 08:47:09, dylan said
>>
>> But all I get from the Nikon software (is it Capture or View?) is some
>> "unexpected result" error message.... and I noticed that if you give the
>> card a gentle shake a faint rattle can be heard - don't know if its always
>> been there, as I very seldom need to remove the card from the camera.

>Don't know of a cure, but my IBM 340MB microdrive has always had a 'faint
>rattle' if you shake it, never been a problem.

Thanks for the info.


All the best,
Angus Manwaring. (for e-mail remove ANTISPEM)

I need your memories for the Amiga Games Database: A collection of Amiga
Game reviews by Amiga players http://www.angusm.demon.co.uk/AGDB/AGDB.html
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 8:59:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Bob Harrington wrote:

> Alan Browne wrote:
>
>>Angus Manwaring wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Yeah, I mean why let a perfectly reasonable question get in the way
>>>of fully-fledged agenda?
>>
>>Yep. Guilty as charged. Microdrives cost less becasue they are
>>failure probabilty compromised and can only be sold at lower price.
>
>
> Or maybe just because they are a little slower than current solid state
> devices? Or cheaper to produce?

Use more juice. Slower. More failure prone. Cheaper to produce. In
that order.

When something is cheaper to produce you don't lower your price, you
keep your price up there with the competitor, or just slightly below his
resistance line.

When something is of less benefit, and hopefully cheaper to produce, you
have to lower your price to get people to accept compromised quality.

You could probably crunch numbers that say, well the failure rate is
higher, but the cost is so much lower that it's worth the highr failure
rate.

Simple case: item A will fail twice as often as item B, but it costs
0.49 of item B so it's a business case for A.

But this can never account for the intangible value of the data that is
stored on the disk when it goes tango uniform. So if the MTBF of
microdisks is 10 worse than solid state, even if that MTBF is a huge
number, people do not want to risk what has happened to Angus.

>>Who would buy such a thing if a solid state device of the same
>>capacity existed at the same price?
>
>
> I had a limited budget, and required capacity more than speed - so far
> not regretting my Hitachi 4GB microdrives. I will toss a crow in the
> freezer for later consumption if the need arises...

Chances are you'll come back in 2 or 3 years and say, "well, it still
works but now I need a 64 GB memory in there and I have a frozen crow
for sale."

But get 100 solid state users in the room, and 100 microdisk users and I
would bet good money that there would be more failures with the microdisks.

Cheers,
Alan.


--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 11:43:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

In article <a8qdnYUCePtt0tHfRVn-ow@giganews.com>,
Bob Harrington <rch.NOS-PAM@blarg.net> wrote:
>>
>Or maybe just because they are a little slower than current solid state
>devices? Or cheaper to produce?

Or have a larger current draw (at the same capacity; the new high-speed,
high-capacity CF cards are getting pretty power-hungry, too).

And a *much* worse startup time, and a very high power drain at that time.


There are plenty of other possible advantages/disadvantages.

(Plus, of course, "it costs more, so it must be better"
isn't exactly a very compelling argument)
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 11:43:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

John Francis wrote:


> (Plus, of course, "it costs more, so it must be better"
> isn't exactly a very compelling argument)

In the case of solid state v micro-D's it is very compelling. If
micro-D's were competitive (for all the reasons of speed, power and
reliability) then they could raise their price to the level that the
solid-states are getting.

Nobody sells cheaper than he has to.

Wow, my axe is getting sharp!

Cheers,
Alan



--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 1:08:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Compactflash v. Microdrive reliability. Try the link below and forget 'urban
myths'

http://www.benlovejoy.com/photography/kit/cfcards/

Eric


"Angus Manwaring" <angus@angusm_ANTISPEM_.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1423.950T2336T11075843angus@angusm_ANTISPEM_.demon.co.uk...
>I was doing a location photographic job for somebody today, with my Nikon
> D1X, and after finishing a batch of shots that took a while to set up and
> arrange I pushed the shutter release and nothing happened. I looked at the
> display and it was flashing an error, "CD" for card, I think. I had my one
> and only, one Gig card in, and it definitely wasn't full.
>
> I changed to a 128mb smartcard, and all was well. I thought I'd recover
> the images from the 1 gig card when I got back.
>
> But all I get from the Nikon software (is it Capture or View?) is some
> "unexpected result" error message.... and I noticed that if you give the
> card a gentle shake a faint rattle can be heard - don't know if its always
> been there, as I very seldom need to remove the card from the camera.
>
> Now I'm more than willing to admit it when I think I've cocked-up
> (mostly!) but the camera was on a tripod, one short worked, the next
> didn't, with no impacts in between. I've never had a card fail on me
> before - how common is this?
>
> And, is there any hope of recovering the images on the suspect card? Its
> not the end of the world or anything, but it would be nice. :) 
>
> Thanks for any advice.
>
>
> All the best,
> Angus Manwaring. (for e-mail remove ANTISPEM)
>
> I need your memories for the Amiga Games Database: A collection of Amiga
> Game reviews by Amiga players http://www.angusm.demon.co.uk/AGDB/AGDB.html
>
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 1:08:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:08:15 +1200, "Eric & Kath" <marcek@xtra.co.nz>
wrote:

>Compactflash v. Microdrive reliability. Try the link below and forget 'urban
>myths'
>
>http://www.benlovejoy.com/photography/kit/cfcards/
>
>Eric

What you call urban myths, I call personal experience.
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 1:08:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On 31-Mar-05 09:08:15, Eric & Kath said
>Compactflash v. Microdrive reliability. Try the link below and forget 'urban
>myths'

>http://www.benlovejoy.com/photography/kit/cfcards/

Thanks Eric, an intersting read.




All the best,
Angus Manwaring. (for e-mail remove ANTISPEM)

I need your memories for the Amiga Games Database: A collection of Amiga
Game reviews by Amiga players http://www.angusm.demon.co.uk/AGDB/AGDB.html
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 1:08:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

"Eric & Kath" <marcek@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:k6P2e.14370$1S4.1482028@news.xtra.co.nz...
> Compactflash v. Microdrive reliability. Try the link below and forget
'urban
> myths'
>
> http://www.benlovejoy.com/photography/kit/cfcards/
>

Wow, that tells us nothing that couldn't be learned from marketing
materials.

Greg
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 1:08:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

"McLeod" <cerveza@xplornet.com> wrote in message
news:keln419iekr4um7hlcrb9r25311ng4d22l@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:08:15 +1200, "Eric & Kath" <marcek@xtra.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
>>Compactflash v. Microdrive reliability. Try the link below and forget
>>'urban
>>myths'
>>
>>http://www.benlovejoy.com/photography/kit/cfcards/
>>
>>Eric
>
> What you call urban myths, I call personal experience.

Unless you have PERSONALLY used MILLIONS of microdrives, then your PERSONAL
experience is MEANINGLESS in the real world

But you knew that.
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 1:08:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Larry wrote:

> In article <keln419iekr4um7hlcrb9r25311ng4d22l@4ax.com>, cerveza@xplornet.com
> says...
>
>>On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:08:15 +1200, "Eric & Kath" <marcek@xtra.co.nz>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Compactflash v. Microdrive reliability. Try the link below and forget 'urban
>>>myths'
>>>
>>>http://www.benlovejoy.com/photography/kit/cfcards/
>>>
>>>Eric
>>
>>What you call urban myths, I call personal experience.
>>
>
>
>
> Anyone who considers the frailty of a hard drive to be an "Urban Myth" hasnt
> got a grip on reality.
>
> In truth the Microdrives are much more "shock proof" than thier bigger
> cousins that live in our laptops and desktops, but they are STILL hardrives,
> and subject to failure due to shock that wouldnt faze a memory chip.
>
> Whether or not that type of shock is likely to occur when the Microdrive is
> used with a digital camera is MUCH more dependant on the photographer and his
> habits than it is on anything else.
>
> If you are likely to take your CF cards out of your vest pocket and dump them
> into a box on your desk like you would some pocket change (as I do) then the
> Microdrive probably isnt for you (or me)

Yep.

the link that Scott put up:

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-6...

Says it all. They've had to redesign the microdrive packaging in two
ways: 1) Reverse the drive to avoid user "pinching" of the drive
mechanism and 2) set it an angle to provide room for rubber baby bugy
bumpers.

And despite all that, they will still fail more often than CF.

As to photographer habits, I have enough equipment to babysit that is
much more expensive and important to photography than a freaking CF
card. Don't give me a microdrive to coddle as well.

Cheers,
Alan.

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 1:08:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Angus Manwaring wrote:

> On 31-Mar-05 09:08:15, Eric & Kath said
>
>>Compactflash v. Microdrive reliability. Try the link below and forget 'urban
>>myths'
>
>
>>http://www.benlovejoy.com/photography/kit/cfcards/
>
>
> Thanks Eric, an intersting read.

Some rebuttal:

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-6...

As you can see, the design has had to evolve to account for failures
inherent in the system.

Cheers,
Alan.

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
April 1, 2005 1:08:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

In article <0isn419r9dljop80b9ha0urhh8tc7rcb79@4ax.com>, zespectre@askme.com
says...
> -<standing ovation>-
> from someone who uses just about every damn media out there right now
> <grin>.
>
>
> Drifter
> "I've been here, I've been there..."
>


<taking a bow>

Thank you,
Thank you very much.


--
Larry Lynch
Mystic, Ct.
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 1:08:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Tom Scales wrote:

> "McLeod" <cerveza@xplornet.com> wrote in message
> news:keln419iekr4um7hlcrb9r25311ng4d22l@4ax.com...
>
>>On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:08:15 +1200, "Eric & Kath" <marcek@xtra.co.nz>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Compactflash v. Microdrive reliability. Try the link below and forget
>>>'urban
>>>myths'
>>>
>>>http://www.benlovejoy.com/photography/kit/cfcards/
>>>
>>>Eric
>>
>>What you call urban myths, I call personal experience.
>
>
> Unless you have PERSONALLY used MILLIONS of microdrives, then your PERSONAL
> experience is MEANINGLESS in the real world

Doesn't matter a whit. We hear of microdrives going Tango-uniform all
the time. We hear of CF cards going TU rarely.

The price says it all, and Scott's post:

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-6...

Confirms that there is a problem and they're addressing it, but it will
still be more fragile than a solid state device.

Cheers,
Alan

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 1:08:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

"Alan Browne" <alan.browne@freelunchVideotron.ca> wrote in message
news:D 2h0ln$dm4$2@inews.gazeta.pl...
> Tom Scales wrote:
>
>> "McLeod" <cerveza@xplornet.com> wrote in message
>> news:keln419iekr4um7hlcrb9r25311ng4d22l@4ax.com...
>>
>>>On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:08:15 +1200, "Eric & Kath" <marcek@xtra.co.nz>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Compactflash v. Microdrive reliability. Try the link below and forget
>>>>'urban
>>>>myths'
>>>>
>>>>http://www.benlovejoy.com/photography/kit/cfcards/
>>>>
>>>>Eric
>>>
>>>What you call urban myths, I call personal experience.
>>
>>
>> Unless you have PERSONALLY used MILLIONS of microdrives, then your
>> PERSONAL experience is MEANINGLESS in the real world
>
> Doesn't matter a whit. We hear of microdrives going Tango-uniform all the
> time. We hear of CF cards going TU rarely.
>
> The price says it all, and Scott's post:
>
> http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-6...
>
> Confirms that there is a problem and they're addressing it, but it will
> still be more fragile than a solid state device.
>
> Cheers,
> Alan
>

Not much of a math guy are you.

Both fail.

Microdrives have hard drives and can be more fragile.

Both work fine.

For large capacities, Microdrives are a price leader.

That's why I have two of the Hitachi 4GB drives. The 4GB CF cards are still
pretty pricey. I paid under $200 each for the Hitachi drives.

I only get 200 shots on each card, so smaller cards are not particularly
practical for me. A 512MB CF card hols a whopping 25 shots.

Tom
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 1:08:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:23:45 GMT, "Tom Scales" <tomtoo@softhome.net>
wrote:

>Not much of a math guy are you.
>
>Both fail.

Maybe. I have a locker full of 4 Meg CF cards from the old DCS410 and
420 Kodak digital cameras that I can't use for much of anything
because they're too small. I don't have any microdrives that are over
a year old. I have never had a CF card failure. I have seen them
unable to open images due to someone pulling out the card while the
camera was still writing, but the other images were recoverable, and
the card was reusable when reformatted.
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 1:24:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:59:15 -0500, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@freelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

>
>When something is cheaper to produce you don't lower your price, you
>keep your price up there with the competitor, or just slightly below his
>resistance line.

You may want to make more overall profit by selling as many as you
profitably can. That is certainly what semiconductor makers do in
general, except for creaming at the beginning of a new generation.



Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a


MOM CASTS TOT IN CEMENT

Most experts voice cautious optimism
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 2:07:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:59:15 -0500, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@freelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>
>>When something is cheaper to produce you don't lower your price, you
>>keep your price up there with the competitor, or just slightly below his
>>resistance line.
>
>
> You may want to make more overall profit by selling as many as you
> profitably can. That is certainly what semiconductor makers do in
> general, except for creaming at the beginning of a new generation.

There's always a point where you make more money with a higher price
than at a lower price with higher volume. The art is in finding that
price, esp. in a fast price moving market like electronic components.

When there is a competitor who has a higher priced product (that he
can't bring down due to cost), then, for euqal performance you can
really raise your price to maximize profit.

In the case at hand, however, there are three considerable reasons why
the one is inferior to the other, hence the price gap.

Cheers,
Alan
--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 2:18:50 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

In article <d2hs2v$lsj$2@inews.gazeta.pl>,
Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>John Francis wrote:
>
>
>> (Plus, of course, "it costs more, so it must be better"
>> isn't exactly a very compelling argument)
>
>In the case of solid state v micro-D's it is very compelling. If
>micro-D's were competitive (for all the reasons of speed, power and
>reliability) then they could raise their price to the level that the
>solid-states are getting.

But that's not what's under discussion; nobody is arguing against
selecting CF cards over Microdrives based on either speed or power
considerations, amongst others.

>Nobody sells cheaper than he has to.
>
>Wow, my axe is getting sharp!

Still not sharp enough, apparently, to be able to demonstrate that
a *real* (as opposed to perceived) difference in failure rate is
the reason people prefer CF to Microdrives. There are several
other valid reasons that have been posted here, multiple times.

Even the one piece of evidence posted here that is claimed to
support that position doesn't actually do so, if you read it;
it suggests that a currently-available Microdrive is likely
to be perfectly suitable from a reliability standpoint.
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 2:18:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

John Francis wrote:

<snipped> (Already pointed out and/or acknowledged the speed, power
issues).
> it suggests that a currently-available Microdrive is likely
> to be perfectly suitable from a reliability standpoint.

Suitable? Image data is a thing for which we want highest reliability
at least until we can make archived copies. I don't dispute that most
microdrives will outlive their actual use. Just stating that from all
accounts, and from common sense that micro-D's are more likely to fail
than solid state in the same usage.

To me, that means using solid state, as after I click the shutter that
moment in time is forever gone.

Perhaps it's not so bad and they are images I can recreate ... at worst
some inconvenience and lost time.

Sometimes it's something that cannot ever be recreated.

Cheers,
Alan

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 3:40:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

"Alan Browne" <alan.browne@freelunchVideotron.ca> wrote in message
news:D 2h9tj$qdf$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
> Angus Manwaring wrote:
>
>> Yeah, I mean why let a perfectly reasonable question get in the way of
>> fully-fledged agenda?
>
> Yep. Guilty as charged. Microdrives cost less becasue they are failure
> probabilty compromised and can only be sold at lower price.
>
> Who would buy such a thing if a solid state device of the same capacity
> existed at the same price?
>
> Cheers,
> Alan

You've been proven wrong. Why do you keep claiming these things?
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 4:50:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Have you not been READING anyone else's post?

You're waste of time. Do what you want. Me, I'm happy with my 4GB
Microdrives.

Tom
"Alan Browne" <alan.browne@freelunchVideotron.ca> wrote in message
news:D 2i5q9$gsr$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
> Tom Scales wrote:
>
>
>>
>> You've been proven wrong. Why do you keep claiming these things?
>
> Proven? Where? Show me your data. Real data.
>
> --
> -- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
> -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
> -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
> -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.
!