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Best reference book for DSLR camera and Photoshop?

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Anonymous
April 17, 2005 10:24:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Hello All,

I would like to get some ideas of what book or books would be your
choice to buy. I'm pretty sure I'm going to buy a Nikon D70 so I would
like a book that helps me to understand the controls and functions of
a camera with the D70's capabilities.

The second book I would like to purchase would be one that explains
the intricacies of using Photoshop to edit pictures. If Photoshop,
what program would you recommend?

Thanks for the help...dave
Anonymous
April 17, 2005 10:24:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

CommanderDave wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> I would like to get some ideas of what book or books would be your
> choice to buy. I'm pretty sure I'm going to buy a Nikon D70 so I would
> like a book that helps me to understand the controls and functions of
> a camera with the D70's capabilities.

I've just begun my journey into photography (with a Nikon D70). The
books that have helped me most as far as understanding basic photography
are the Ansel Adams books:

The Camera (Book 1)
by Ansel Adams, Robert Baker
The Negative (Book 2)
by Ansel Adams, Robert Baker

I haven't looked at the third yet:

The Print (Book 3)
by Ansel Adams, Robert Baker;

These are relatively old books that deal mostly with B&W photography,
but they are invaluable to me for learning about aperture, shutter
speed, exposure, etc. I turned to them after the ones below didn't
provide enough explanation.

These books all deal with digital photography, and they have all been
helpfull to some extent. I recommend sitting down at you local bookshop,
picking a particular topic and reading each one to see which one(s) are
most lucid.

The Basic Book of Photography
by Tom & Michele Grimm
John Hedgecoe's Complete Guide to Photography
by John Hedgecoe
The Joy of Digital Photography
by Jeff Wignall
PCPhoto Digital SLR Handbook
by Rob Sheppard

Hedgecoe's may be the best 1st book that I've found, if you can only get
one. I'd accompany it with at least the first two Ansel Adams books.


> The second book I would like to purchase would be one that explains
> the intricacies of using Photoshop to edit pictures. If Photoshop,
> what program would you recommend?

Can't help on this yet...
April 17, 2005 10:24:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

CommanderDave wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I would like to get some ideas of what book or books would be your
> choice to buy.

I got a lot out of "color confidence" by Tim Grey. Explains how color
management works, how a camera records color, how we see color ect in
digital capture and printing. Found mine used at amazon for like $5!

--

Stacey
Related resources
Anonymous
April 17, 2005 2:13:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

CommanderDave wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I would like to get some ideas of what book or books would be your
> choice to buy. I'm pretty sure I'm going to buy a Nikon D70 so I would
> like a book that helps me to understand the controls and functions of
> a camera with the D70's capabilities.

It comes with a manual, which you can DL from the web in pdf form and
begin reading before you even get the camera.


--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- slr-systems FAQ project: http://tinyurl.com/6m9aw
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
Anonymous
April 17, 2005 5:39:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

"Randy W. Sims" <RandyS@ThePierianSpring.org> wrote in message
news:ho6dnZ6r1JoPkf_fRVn_vg@giganews.com...
>
> CommanderDave wrote:
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I would like to get some ideas of what book or books would be your
>> choice to buy. I'm pretty sure I'm going to buy a Nikon D70 so I would
>> like a book that helps me to understand the controls and functions of
>> a camera with the D70's capabilities.
>
> I've just begun my journey into photography (with a Nikon D70). The books
> that have helped me most as far as understanding basic photography are the
> Ansel Adams books:
>
> The Camera (Book 1)
> by Ansel Adams, Robert Baker
> The Negative (Book 2)
> by Ansel Adams, Robert Baker


Tears are slowly running down my cheeks.......................... :-((
(The older ones will get the idea)
Anonymous
April 17, 2005 7:24:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Try Thom Hogan's site for all things Nikon:
http://www.bythom.com/

He has a book on the D70 (CD only) and you can find a review and other
useful info on his site.



"CommanderDave" <DaveBear49@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:h50461lvqa1sce91u600abcrk4jkjrd4ig@4ax.com...
> Hello All,
>
> I would like to get some ideas of what book or books would be your
> choice to buy. I'm pretty sure I'm going to buy a Nikon D70 so I would
> like a book that helps me to understand the controls and functions of
> a camera with the D70's capabilities.
>
> The second book I would like to purchase would be one that explains
> the intricacies of using Photoshop to edit pictures. If Photoshop,
> what program would you recommend?
>
> Thanks for the help...dave
>
Anonymous
April 17, 2005 7:24:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 15:24:51 GMT, in rec.photo.digital.slr-systems "Patco"
<patco@mail.com> wrote:

>Try Thom Hogan's site for all things Nikon:
>http://www.bythom.com/
>
>He has a book on the D70 (CD only) and you can find a review and other
>useful info on his site.

I'll second the recommendation of Thom Hogan's Complete Guide to the Nikon
D70. A good resource. You can print it, even at a commercial place. The
license allows for this.
----------
Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
See images taken with my CP-990/5700 & D70 at
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index...
Anonymous
April 17, 2005 7:24:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Ed Ruf wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 15:24:51 GMT, in rec.photo.digital.slr-systems "Patco"
> <patco@mail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Try Thom Hogan's site for all things Nikon:
>>http://www.bythom.com/
>>
>>He has a book on the D70 (CD only) and you can find a review and other
>>useful info on his site.
>
>
> I'll second the recommendation of Thom Hogan's Complete Guide to the Nikon
> D70. A good resource. You can print it, even at a commercial place. The
> license allows for this.

But that doesn't account for idiots at the print shop. I dropped my copy
off at Kinko's the other day. Order one 5.5x8.5" double-sided, coil
bound copy. They called me back later that night, saying they couldn't
do double-sided. Ok. The called me again the next morning, saying it was
now too big to bind. grrr. I went by there and they wanted to charge me
for a 4-5 inch stack of 5.5x8.5" single-sided 4-5 inch thick stack of
badly cut, unbound pages. Sorry, that's not what I ordered.

Randy.
Anonymous
April 17, 2005 7:24:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

I'll third the recommendation for Hogan's book (CD). Very specific to the
D70, but covers damn near anything you can think of, and things you hadn't
thought of, with regard to using that camera. Very informative.



"Ed Ruf" <egruf_usenet@cox.net> wrote in message
news:1v3561l1n27e4g57l9185b5dq5el3l7ps5@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 15:24:51 GMT, in rec.photo.digital.slr-systems "Patco"
> <patco@mail.com> wrote:
>
>>Try Thom Hogan's site for all things Nikon:
>>http://www.bythom.com/
>>
>>He has a book on the D70 (CD only) and you can find a review and other
>>useful info on his site.
>
> I'll second the recommendation of Thom Hogan's Complete Guide to the Nikon
> D70. A good resource. You can print it, even at a commercial place. The
> license allows for this.
> ----------
> Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
> See images taken with my CP-990/5700 & D70 at
> http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index...
Anonymous
April 17, 2005 9:38:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 14:39:12 -0400, in rec.photo.digital.slr-systems "Randy
W. Sims" <RandyS@ThePierianSpring.org> wrote:

>But that doesn't account for idiots at the print shop. I dropped my copy
>off at Kinko's the other day. Order one 5.5x8.5" double-sided, coil
>bound copy. They called me back later that night, saying they couldn't
>do double-sided. Ok. The called me again the next morning, saying it was
>now too big to bind. grrr. I went by there and they wanted to charge me
>for a 4-5 inch stack of 5.5x8.5" single-sided 4-5 inch thick stack of
>badly cut, unbound pages. Sorry, that's not what I ordered.

That aid I don't agree with Thom's instructions for printing. I initially
tried a few pages 2-up across an 8-1/2 x11 page double sided. But quickly
determined it was better printed out at 8-1/2 x 11 per page double sided.
Maybe five years ago I'd go for the 2-up, by the eyes aren't what they used
to be. Used an HP 4500 Color LaserJet with duplexer.
----------
Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
See images taken with my CP-990/5700 & D70 at
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index...
Anonymous
April 17, 2005 11:38:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Stacey wrote:
> CommanderDave wrote:
>
>
>>Hello All,
>>
>>I would like to get some ideas of what book or books would be your
>>choice to buy.
>
>
> I got a lot out of "color confidence" by Tim Grey. Explains how color
> management works, how a camera records color, how we see color ect in
> digital capture and printing. Found mine used at amazon for like $5!
>

I was at my local Barnes & Noble today, getting my daily dose of
Starbucks', and found what looks like a very good book on the subject:

The Complete Guide to Digital Color Correction
by Michael Walker, Neil Barstow

I read quite a bit sitting there, and it looks very good. It covers
everything from theory to practical application using Photoshop. The
only reason I didn't pick it up is that I wanted to check another store
to see if they have the one you mention, and see how it compares. It
looks like one of these may provide the solution to the question I
raised in a previous thread.

Randy.
Anonymous
April 18, 2005 3:28:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 03:13:21 -0400, "Randy W. Sims"
<RandyS@ThePierianSpring.org> wrote:

>CommanderDave wrote:
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I would like to get some ideas of what book or books would be your
>> choice to buy. I'm pretty sure I'm going to buy a Nikon D70 so I would
>> like a book that helps me to understand the controls and functions of
>> a camera with the D70's capabilities.
>
>I've just begun my journey into photography (with a Nikon D70). The
>books that have helped me most as far as understanding basic photography
>are the Ansel Adams books:
>
>The Camera (Book 1)
> by Ansel Adams, Robert Baker
>The Negative (Book 2)
> by Ansel Adams, Robert Baker
>
>I haven't looked at the third yet:
>
>The Print (Book 3)
> by Ansel Adams, Robert Baker;
>
>These are relatively old books that deal mostly with B&W photography,
>but they are invaluable to me for learning about aperture, shutter
>speed, exposure, etc. I turned to them after the ones below didn't
>provide enough explanation.
>
>These books all deal with digital photography, and they have all been
>helpfull to some extent. I recommend sitting down at you local bookshop,
>picking a particular topic and reading each one to see which one(s) are
>most lucid.
>
>The Basic Book of Photography
> by Tom & Michele Grimm
>John Hedgecoe's Complete Guide to Photography
> by John Hedgecoe
>The Joy of Digital Photography
> by Jeff Wignall
>PCPhoto Digital SLR Handbook
> by Rob Sheppard
>
>Hedgecoe's may be the best 1st book that I've found, if you can only get
>one. I'd accompany it with at least the first two Ansel Adams books.
>
>
>> The second book I would like to purchase would be one that explains
>> the intricacies of using Photoshop to edit pictures. If Photoshop,
>> what program would you recommend?
>
>Can't help on this yet...

Hello Randy,

Thank you for the input. During my mis-spent youth, I played with my
dad's (He was a professional photographer) backup 4x5 camera. I, of
course had images of being another Ansel Adams. That didn't happen,
but I did inherit dads thousands of 4x5 negatives.

I digress. I more wanted a book that can explain how, let's say, EV
numbers work, and how I could correlate them with my film knowledge
and past experiences. Another idea I read somewhere, is that with
digital you expose for the highlights. Can that be true? That kind of
stuff.

I appreciate yours and others who have responded....dave
Anonymous
April 18, 2005 3:33:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 10:13:34 -0400, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@freelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

>CommanderDave wrote:
>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I would like to get some ideas of what book or books would be your
>> choice to buy. I'm pretty sure I'm going to buy a Nikon D70 so I would
>> like a book that helps me to understand the controls and functions of
>> a camera with the D70's capabilities.
>
>It comes with a manual, which you can DL from the web in pdf form and
>begin reading before you even get the camera.

Hello Alan,

I found the manual and downloaded. Thanks for the heads up. It is
pretty amazing how fast, and the high quality of information you can
get off of the web in a few minutes....dave
Anonymous
April 18, 2005 3:41:30 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Hello All,

The second book I would like to purchase would be one that explains
the intricacies of using Photoshop to edit pictures. Is there a huge
difference between CS and elements? Any recommendations?

If not Photoshop, what other program would you recommend?

Thanks for the help...dave
Anonymous
April 18, 2005 3:41:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

CommanderDave wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> The second book I would like to purchase would be one that explains
> the intricacies of using Photoshop to edit pictures. Is there a huge
> difference between CS and elements? Any recommendations?

There was recent discussion on some photoshop books. Try the following link:

<http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?q=photoshop%20book...;
Anonymous
April 18, 2005 3:47:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 19:38:45 -0400, "Randy W. Sims"
<RandyS@ThePierianSpring.org> wrote:

>Stacey wrote:
>> CommanderDave wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hello All,
>>>
>>>I would like to get some ideas of what book or books would be your
>>>choice to buy.
>>
>>
>> I got a lot out of "color confidence" by Tim Grey. Explains how color
>> management works, how a camera records color, how we see color ect in
>> digital capture and printing. Found mine used at amazon for like $5!
>>
>
>I was at my local Barnes & Noble today, getting my daily dose of
>Starbucks', and found what looks like a very good book on the subject:
>
>The Complete Guide to Digital Color Correction
> by Michael Walker, Neil Barstow
>
>I read quite a bit sitting there, and it looks very good. It covers
>everything from theory to practical application using Photoshop. The
>only reason I didn't pick it up is that I wanted to check another store
>to see if they have the one you mention, and see how it compares. It
>looks like one of these may provide the solution to the question I
>raised in a previous thread.
>
>Randy.

Hello Randy,

I went to B&N last weekend and by the time I was through looking at
the Adobe Photoshop books my mind was a little boogled. Ok...a lot
boogled. I'll probably go back next weekend with what information I
have gleened off of the Newsgroup and buy a book or two. Thanks for
your input...dave
Anonymous
April 18, 2005 3:47:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 23:47:37 GMT, CommanderDave <DaveBear49@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 19:38:45 -0400, "Randy W. Sims"
><RandyS@ThePierianSpring.org> wrote:
>
>>Stacey wrote:
>>> CommanderDave wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hello All,
>>>>
>>>>I would like to get some ideas of what book or books would be your
>>>>choice to buy.
>>>
>>>
>>> I got a lot out of "color confidence" by Tim Grey. Explains how color
>>> management works, how a camera records color, how we see color ect in
>>> digital capture and printing. Found mine used at amazon for like $5!
>>>
>>
>>I was at my local Barnes & Noble today, getting my daily dose of
>>Starbucks', and found what looks like a very good book on the subject:
>>
>>The Complete Guide to Digital Color Correction
>> by Michael Walker, Neil Barstow
>>
>>I read quite a bit sitting there, and it looks very good. It covers
>>everything from theory to practical application using Photoshop. The
>>only reason I didn't pick it up is that I wanted to check another store
>>to see if they have the one you mention, and see how it compares. It
>>looks like one of these may provide the solution to the question I
>>raised in a previous thread.
>>
>>Randy.
>
>Hello Randy,
>
>I went to B&N last weekend and by the time I was through looking at
>the Adobe Photoshop books my mind was a little boogled. Ok...a lot
>boogled. I'll probably go back next weekend with what information I
>have gleened off of the Newsgroup and buy a book or two. Thanks for
>your input...dave

Photoshop is no different than Word, or Excel. A million features,
90% of which you'll never use. If they took a poll of people and what
features they use, like anything else, most would pick a handful as
ones they use most often. What someone needs to do is create a
program that does key features more easily, with fewer steps.
An image fusing program exists like this. It's free and it's called,
"registax." An application-specific program. If you do still photos
of static subjects, it can improve your final result dramatically.
-Rich
Anonymous
April 18, 2005 4:43:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

In article <1ss561di31um0ved7vb2r0ksnh6rs61o65@4ax.com>, DaveBear49
@yahoo.com says...
> Hello All,
>
> The second book I would like to purchase would be one that explains
> the intricacies of using Photoshop to edit pictures. Is there a huge
> difference between CS and elements? Any recommendations?

There's a *huge* difference between CS and elements. Photoshop CS
is aimed at pros, although Adobe doesn't mind if amateurs buy it
also. It has a big feature set and an equally big learning curve;
it assumes that you have enough of a grasp of the principles of
image editing to be able to work through a series of steps to get
what you want. For example, you tend not to see things like
"red eye correction"; Photoshop assumes that you know how to do
that manually (or that you're a good enough photographer that
you don't get red eye to begin with). Where Photoshop does
automate a fix-up tool, such as its "healing brush" which can
remove wrinkles, the tools are really good and they're doing things
that go way beyond what a real darkroom or airbrush can do.

Photoshop also has things that you'll probably never need, such as
support for commercial printing and publishing, and integration
with the full range of publishing, illustration, and professional
video editing tools.

> If not Photoshop, what other program would you recommend?

The first decision is about how serious you want to get. Photoshop
is a high-end image editor that really doesn't have serious
competition any more. Elements is aimed at a mid-range market,
and has several competitors. Most of the programs in this range
are reasonably good and do most of the same things. If you're
looking for basic cropping, color and contrast adjustment, etc.,
this is all you really need.

"Photoshop Artistry" is an excellent book on using Photoshop
for lots of interesting work on photos. If you browse through
the book, you'll get an idea of Photoshop's power. If you want
a simpler introduction to Photoshop's capabilities, pick up the
most current edition of Adobe's Photoshop Classroom in a Book;
it's an excellent tutorial that will get you through the
Photoshop learning curve quickly. These two books will take
you a long ways before you need anything else. A third book
to look at, but which is not a substitute for the first two,
would be the Photosho WOW book, which takes you through a lot
of fancy special effects.

If you want to play with Photoshop before deciding, pick up
the Classroom in a Book, and download the try-out version
of Photoshop from Adobe.

Diane
Anonymous
April 18, 2005 4:53:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 20:03:58 -0400, "Randy W. Sims"
<RandyS@ThePierianSpring.org> wrote:

>CommanderDave wrote:
>> Hello All,
>>
>> The second book I would like to purchase would be one that explains
>> the intricacies of using Photoshop to edit pictures. Is there a huge
>> difference between CS and elements? Any recommendations?
>
>There was recent discussion on some photoshop books. Try the following link:
>
><http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?q=photoshop%20book...;

Wow! I guess I need to pay attention. I didn't realize that Google
also has a search engine for Newsgroups. Thank you, way cool....dave
Anonymous
April 18, 2005 5:47:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 23:28:12 GMT, CommanderDave <DaveBear49@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Another idea I read somewhere, is that with
> digital you expose for the highlights. Can that be true?

Digital is a lot less forgiving of overexposure than negative film.
When the highlights blow, they BLOW, and no amount of fiddling in
post-processing brings them back. So yes, there's some truth to
that.

If you shoot RAW, you might have a little more headroom before you
lose the highlights, but it's still the case that when they're gone,
they're gone.

Regards,

--
Ben Rosengart (212) 741-4400 x215
Sometimes it only makes sense to focus our attention on those
questions that are equal parts trivial and intriguing.
--Josh Micah Marshall
Anonymous
April 18, 2005 1:46:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

CommanderDave wrote:

> On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 10:13:34 -0400, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@freelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>
>>CommanderDave wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hello All,
>>>
>>>I would like to get some ideas of what book or books would be your
>>>choice to buy. I'm pretty sure I'm going to buy a Nikon D70 so I would
>>>like a book that helps me to understand the controls and functions of
>>>a camera with the D70's capabilities.
>>
>>It comes with a manual, which you can DL from the web in pdf form and
>>begin reading before you even get the camera.
>
>
> Hello Alan,
>
> I found the manual and downloaded. Thanks for the heads up. It is
> pretty amazing how fast, and the high quality of information you can
> get off of the web in a few minutes....dave

You're welcome ... enjoy. Now DL the Maxxum 7D manual from K-M... now
THERE's a camera.

Cheers,
Alan

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- slr-systems FAQ project: http://tinyurl.com/6m9aw
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
Anonymous
April 20, 2005 7:45:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

In message <1113734378.975772@athnrd02>,
"g n p" <gpaleo@ath.forthnet.gr> wrote:

>"Randy W. Sims" <RandyS@ThePierianSpring.org> wrote in message
>news:ho6dnZ6r1JoPkf_fRVn_vg@giganews.com...

>> The Camera (Book 1)
>> by Ansel Adams, Robert Baker
>> The Negative (Book 2)
>> by Ansel Adams, Robert Baker
>
>
>Tears are slowly running down my cheeks.......................... :-((
>(The older ones will get the idea)

Let's not let nostalgia get in the way of realizing that digital
exposure ("The Negative") has a completely different set of concerns
than reversal film.
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Anonymous
April 20, 2005 7:48:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

In message <slrnd664d4.mc4.br@panix5.panix.com>,
Ben Rosengart <br+rpdss@panix.com> wrote:

>If you shoot RAW, you might have a little more headroom before you
>lose the highlights, but it's still the case that when they're gone,
>they're gone.

But it is also true that the closer you get to that point, the better
the exposure is.

Film's quality curve is sort of a bell-curve. Digital's is a
postive-phase sawtooth wave.
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
!