Clueless old man trying to figure out i7's,

[Dorjan]

Hey guys me again. Been asking over in the Graphics section about a few things and boy have I opened a can of worms in my brain.

CPU: i7's 3770k vs 2600k

GFX: Rad's 7870 vs GeForce's 570 (or 560 ti)


Then, mobo, case, cooling... 32gb ram... what speed? I don't know.

I really can't get my head around this.

I need a machine really good at graphics rendering but also streaming games to things like twitch.tv. Not too high resolution (720p will do) but I do have a budget.

This computer can be upgraded in a year or so but it needs to be able to do it now but not too expensive (we're talking around £1k English, including a decent monitor)

I have a decent power supply so I don't need a new one of those atm luckily. I think... OCZ Stealth X Stream Power Supply 600W

Any help would be great.

Is buying a board for the smaller Ivy bridge better than buying the bigger sandy even though the chip runs cooler? Or do I get the Ivy and just keep it underclocked and save the wattage and then upgrade to another smaller cpu later.

Does that even matter?

Cheers guys

edit (I read the readme thread late sorry)

Approximate Purchase Date: Before Christmas

Budget Range: £1,000 +- 200

System Usage from Most to Least Important: Creating Videos and streaming video games TO the internet.

Are you buying a monitor: Yes and it needs to be good enough for graphic editing

Parts to Upgrade: All but the Power Supply which is OCZ StealthXStream 600 W Power Supply (review http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/451)

Do you need to buy OS: Yes
Please note that if you're using an OEM license of Windows, you will need a new one when buying a new motherboard.

Preferred Website(s) for Parts: Don't mind

Location: England

Parts Preferences: Intel / GeForce but if the others are good for me please say why. I'm buying the name I've always known nothing more.

Overclocking: Yes / Maybe

SLI or Crossfire: No

Your Monitor Resolution: HD? Not sure. 1080p Maybe bigger? I dunno.

Additional Comments: I'm starting a new job video editing and haven't really had a fast PC for this before. Only one that "worked" but took ages. Now I'll be on a schedule and will need to do it fast FAST to save me time

 

[BreadWhistle]

Well I'll break it down as simple as I can for ya. I know it's hard just getting into this computer stuff.

3770k > 2600k

The 3770k is somewhat better then the 2600k as Ivy Bridge(3xxx) is a small step up from Sandy Bridge(2xxx) because of PCI 3.0, architecture performance increase, and slightly faster RAM (NO noticeable difference between 1333MHz and 1600MHz)
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Core-i7-3770K-vs-AMD-FX-8150-and-Core-i7-2600K-CPU-Review/1537/1

7870 vs 570 The 7870 is superior to the 570 and equal to the 580 in nearly everything. Plus, the 570 is old hardware. Now, against the new(er) GTX 670, the 7870 doesn't stand much of a chance. 7870 100% all the way
http://www.hwcompare.com/12208/geforce-gtx-570-vs-radeon-hd-7870/

RAM
Simple. Not enough RAM = BAAAAD. Too much = No gain. Same with the speed. DDR1 266Mhz speed is pewp compared to 1600Mhz. But 2800Mhz+ you still wont notice much of a difference from 1600Mhz. Atleast not now.

Average use of RAM (What you actually use) = 4GB
Recommended (For games and light editing/rendering) = 8GB
Enthusiast (For heavy editing/rendering (No need for this much in any games)) = 16GB+

Since you took my advice and got a Ivy Bridge processor , the standard for RAM is 1600Mhz. 8GB should be enough. Grab some Ripjaws X or any good brand. And remember, a lower Cas Latency is better than higher speed RAM. But I'd recommend CL9 for normal usage.

So in short:

3770k > 2600k

RAM = 8-16GB for you

7870 > 570

Hope I helped a bit.

 

[Dorjan]

Hey! Thanks for the response.

I've heard the 3770k is horrible with the heat problems it has, where the 2600k can be overclocked and still run cooler and is just as fast with this.

With a lot of video editing I'm sure 16GB-32GB would be best surely? I mean a lot of video editing (not just casual stuff).

7870 is great and all, but it's not GeForce and I've... well had bad experiences with Radeon but I hear they're much better! But that wasn't what has made me think I want the GeForce but I hear the GeForce is just that much better at video editing!

Please feel free to correct my reading but I've been reading up on all this constantly for a month now x.x

Cheers!

edit:

Decided on these so far as a "test" with your suggestions

CPU: I7-3770k
GPU: Radeon 7870 (which one?)
Case: Fractual R4: FD-CA-DEF-R4-WH http://www.waeplus.co.uk/product/1623669/FRACTAL-DESIGN-Define-R4---Tower---White
Memory: CMZ16GX3M2A1600C10R x2 (32gb) or x1 (16gb)
PSU: OCZ StealthXStream 600 W Power Supply http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/451

 

[zloginet]

My 3770k doesn't have a heat issue unless I am over 4.6... if I run it 4.5 @ 1.2v with a ultra carbon X5 with 2x arecool shark 120s I never go about 68degrees in prime95. Bear in mind my basement is around 68 to 69 degrees at all times. I am reviving my custom watercooled rig as I just bought a EK supremacy waterblock for it. I would like to try and hover 5.0 24/7

 

[JamesSneed]

The 3770k isnt horrible but it will run hotter overclocked and typically wont reach as high as clocks on air as the 2600k. However if your going to use this for real work like your post suggested then I go with the 3770 or preferably step up to the 6 core i7-3930K with no OC, stability is of prime importance for real work.

Do you already know the particular video creation software?

 

[Dorjan]

Was looking at two:

1) Adobe After Effects
2) Serif MoviePlus

Would it make much of a difference?

edit:

Regarding the CPU: So we all agree that a i7 3770k set to 4.5 is the best stable work horse?

 

[JamesSneed]

Was looking at two:

1) Adobe After Effects
2) Serif MoviePlus

Would it make much of a difference?

1) Adobe After Effects CS6 can use Nvidia CUDA for some operations:
http://blogs.adobe.com/aftereffects/2012/05/gpu-cuda-opengl-features-in-after-effects-cs6.html

2) Serif MoviePlus has no GPU accelerated features.


So with that said if you go with Adobe After Effects you probably should stick with Nvidia, if you go with Serif MoviePlus either GPU will work since it does not use the GPU only CPU. However you should look at the link and see if you will be doing any of those GPU operations that are supported by Adobe After Effects.

 

[Dorjan]

Sweet thanks!

What's this "shader speed" that the geforces has that the Radeon doesn't?

 

[JamesSneed]

Sweet thanks!

What's this "shader speed" that the geforces has that the Radeon doesn't?

Ignore shader speeds etc just look for real life tests which means you will want to nail down the software. For example Adobe software is very Nvidia "optimized". I did a quick look at tests with Adobe After Effects and if you could swing it the GTX 680 is great at games as we all know but it also does very well at rendering in Adobe After effects. The GTX 670 is about on par with the GTX 570 at rendering but does better at games. I would likely stick with Nvidia knowing you may use Adobe products as they certify Nvidia drivers/cards and you have to do work around with AMD cards.

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/2/1019643

 

[BreadWhistle]

It it is true that IB Processors become an oven around 4.5GHz, that can be fixed with a just a decent CPU cooler. No big deal really.

And I'd still recommend 16GB of RAM. I mean, 32GB is a lot... I mean a LOT. With 32GB you could create a 6GB RAMdisk, use 12GB for CS6, 8GB for video editing, 4GB for games, 1GB for running anti-virus and have 3GB left over, while all running at the same time. With 16GB you could have a 2GB RAMdisk, 6GB for CS6 and 6GB for video editing all at the same time. It's crazy really. DON'T even get me started on 64GB RAM.

And good 7870 brands are Sapphire, Gigabyte, ASUS, you know... Brands to avoid are Diamond, Visiontek, IceQ. The PowerColor Vortex II edition is good I guess. But if you want Nvidia, the next step up is the 660 ti. For $50 more than the 7870 and only performs a bit better, and is always outmatched in high-res because of it's tiny 192bit bus-width.

 

[Dorjan]

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Core-i7-3770K-vs-AMD-FX-8150-and-Core-i7-2600K-CPU-Review/1537/18

Ah very nice. Thanks! i7-3770K really is the no brainer, so the ram is also a good choice. We now need a good mobo for the case and a good cooler as the stock ones seem naff.

Thanks everyone for your help!

 

[Dorjan]

SO it's a choice between 7870 or the 680 GTX depending if I have a enough funds at the end.

Ram wise. If I was editing several large raw footage from a high quality camera and loading up a game / recording new footage to splice with this footage would 8 really be enough? Doesn't seem like it. 16 feels close to the limit where 32 (for 50£) seems a no brainer... even if I end up using it as a ramdisk.

For that matter, could I use the ram as a ramdisk for the scratch drive for the video renderer? Surely that would speed things up if I had that much free ram?

 

[BreadWhistle]

Well if you feel like 32GB is your lucky number; get it. I'm not here to force you to get what I feel is best for you.

And I suppose it could... I currently haven't touched my RAM yet as my Craptop only boasts 4GB 1066 RAM. If I take away 2GB for a RAMdisk I might as well just be trying to play BF3 ultra on a gamecube XD

 

[Dorjan]

Heh, I might look into ram a bit more but my gut feeling is that I'll need a lot! But I'm not closed to opinion I can cut a corner there and upgrade later if needed.

 

[gregingo]

The great thing about RAM is that you can add more very easily at a later date. So if u end up getting 16 GB now and feel that u may need more u can simply purchase another 2 sticks and bang u can get 32 GB 8 GB pairs are relatively inexpensive and most main boards will support 4 sticks of memory if they can run at a capacity of 32 GB. Check the CAS timing on the memory though because they do vary a lot and as stated above that will make more of a difference than going above 1600Mhz clock speed.

One thing to look for in memory is XMP. The main thing with this is makes installing memory very easy because it (taken directly off Intel website) "Enables present or user-defined memory profiles that can be selected depending on usage model. For example, an aggressive, low-latency profile could be used during intense gaming, while the default memory setting can be used for everyday home computing, such as home office or Web browsing." All in all it makes installing RAM a snap all u have to do is go into the BIOS and tell it what setting u want to run at No fiddling with CAS timing or clock speeds its pretty much all done for u. And whats really nice is that IF u decide to do the timings yourself u still can!

As far as Nvidia vs Radeon both are great. For your application i would go for a GTX 670 or GTX 680 if your budget is available. For video editing (again stated above) Adobe is optimized to utilize the Cuda cores. The main difference between the 670 and 680 will be the amount of cores (1344 vs 1536). In gaming 670 will most likely be all you will need for a very long time. Both of these cards come in a 4GB variant which might be very beneficial to what u will be doing.

For what type of CPU cooler to get there are a few factors to think of... How good the case's air flow is? What type of ambient temperature do u think the inside of the case will be at? What is the clearance of the case (width) Will you need more room for any RAM heat sinks? What type of configuration will your exhaust fan(s) be in? Will you be overclocking? And finally what is the dimension of your exhaust fan(s)?

Based off of the replies and comments that i have seen thus far we can answer some of these. It looks like your choice of case has adequate cooling with side top and rear fans (assuming there is a fan in the front as well) also looks like they are 120mm/140mm size. So with that in mind the ambient temp of the case should be good enough for a nice air cooler unless you will be doing some higher end overclocking then you might want to think about getting a closed loop liquid cooling solution. One thing to consider though is the temperature of the room that the computer will be in. the hotter the room the hotter the case temp will be with air cooling. The dimensions of the case and the clearance for RAM heat sinks will depend on what cooler and what RAM you go with, MOST will fit though.

I would highly recommend going with the I7 3770k CPU vs the out dated 2600k for the main reasons that have already been posted. PCI-E 3.0 may not be of much use at the moment but its good to have if you decide on keeping this computer for a fair bit of time. With a nice air cooler or liquid cooler you shouldn't have to worry about over heating unless you go crazy overclocking.

Well I think this covers most things and i have blabbered on for long enough haha.

 

[Dorjan]

Thanks for the huge reply gregingo!

The case comes with 3 120mm fans that I can reposition as I see fit, and 5 total slots to choose from.

The RAM, well, is there much in the ram? Are the ones I stated good enough for the job?

I think I'll stay with the 3770k, everyone seems to say it's good enough so sod the benchmarking, I'll just only overclock it to 4.5ghz and have a stable system.

Regarding GFX card, depending on my budget I'll go between the cards listed! Thanks

CPU cooler hasn't been looked at yet >.< I just know stock isn't good. Any advice people?

The last things would be motherboards / hard drives! Gah!

Just need a motherboard that won't be a bottleneck for what I need. I also need the fastest connectors (SATA6 and USB3?) for the best connection speeds if that's really a thing.

I've heard from some places, using an SSD as a scratch drive for video editing really speeds up the processing, is this true? Also the primary drive for windows should be a small drive that you don't install anything onto to speed up computer bootup. Is this true?

So in theory for the best computer I'd need two SSDs (One small one for the windows, one bigger one for the scratch) and a TB drive for storage / programs.

Is this correct?

Thank you all for such amazing help!

 

[BreadWhistle]

That RAM should be. With RAM, under that heat spreader, is the exact same thing. G.SKILL, Corsair, MSI, GeIL.... All the exact same. Now some have fancy LED's and crap like MSI's MPower, and some are just plain purdy like Patriot Viper 3 memory. If you are going to overclock your i7, I'd get G.SKILL Ares, Corsair V. Low Profile, or Patriot Viper 3 memory so it doesn't interfere with your CPU cooler.

While I've heard that SSD's speed up the process, I believe it is false. Your i7 (And I don't think any) can process and crunch numbers faster than a regular hard hard drive can throw at it. But it is true that the more you fill up your SDD, the slower it runs. But even at max capacity it still will boot faster.

And for a motherboard, a Z77 board is good. More preferably an Extreme 4

 

[Dorjan]

That RAM should be. With RAM, under that heat spreader, is the exact same thing. G.SKILL, Corsair, MSI, GeIL.... All the exact same. Now some have fancy LED's and crap like MSI's MPower, and some are just plain purdy like Patriot Viper 3 memory. If you are going to overclock your i7, I'd get G.SKILL Ares, Corsair V. Low Profile, or Patriot Viper 3 memory so it doesn't interfere with your CPU cooler.

What do you mean by "so it [the memory] doesn't interfere with your CPU cooler"?

While I've heard that SSD's speed up the process, I believe it is false. Your i7 (And I don't think any) can process and crunch numbers faster than a regular hard hard drive can throw at it. But it is true that the more you fill up your SDD, the slower it runs. But even at max capacity it still will boot faster.

So the editing programs won't be writing to disk during operation?

I'm just worried that a slowish hd would mean my I7s will be waiting around for something to happen on the HD when I'm trying to do something.

And for a motherboard, a Z77 board is good. More preferably an Extreme 4

Thanks! Good a place as any to start.

 

[BreadWhistle]

As in the RAM is too high and you can't install your CPU cooler properly.

If you feel the need so, just get a 120GB SDD and put your video editor app in there.

 

[Dorjan]

As in the RAM is too high and you can't install your CPU cooler properly.

Ohh it's a physical thing. Roger.

If you feel the need so, just get a 120GB SDD and put your video editor app in there.

Yeah? Is there any merit to the "boot on a small disk" thing?

So even if I get a cheap small HD just to separate it from my TB drive would that do?

 

[JamesSneed]

Ohh it's a physical thing. Roger.


Yeah? Is there any merit to the "boot on a small disk" thing?

So even if I get a cheap small HD just to separate it from my TB drive would that do?

First SSD's are just great for boot disks, once you have one you just won't go back. I personally never go smaller than a 256GB SSD now because they are pretty cheap, don't have to worry about space management so much, and the larger sized drives are typically faster. For example: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147189

For After Effects the disk cache will benefit from a SSD greatly. You can use the same SSD as an OS drive and AE cache. Many people are now dedicating a SSD drive to OS then one to the AE cache but I don't think your building quite that high end of a machine here.

Watch this guide from Adobe as it is fairly helpful to see some tweaking of After Effects to hardware.

http://tv.adobe.com/watch/digital-video-cs6/how-to-optimize-after-effects-cs6-for-high-performance/?go=12437


The $2000 system builder tomshardware just did is a pretty good example for the specs you want for a pretty fast Adobe After effects machine(Swap the 2x AMD graphics cards for a GTX 670/680 and this is about spot on for specifications).

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/build-computer-how-to-overclock-gaming,3363.html

 

[Dorjan]

First SSD's are just great for boot disks, once you have one you just won't go back. I personally never go under 256GB SSD now because they are pretty cheap, don't have to worry about space management so much, and the larger sized drives are typically faster. For example: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147189

For After Effects the disk cache will benefit from an SSD greatly, you can use the same SSD as an OS drive and AE cache. Many people are now dedicating a SSD drive to OS then one to the AE cache but I don't think your building quite that high end of a machine here.

Watch this guide from Adobe as it is fairly helpful to see some tweaking of After Effects to hardware.

http://tv.adobe.com/watch/digital-video-cs6/how-to-optimize-after-effects-cs6-for-high-performance/?go=12437

You sir are a legend.

I think you're right, a decent sized SSD can be my system / scratch disk although it certainly can be upgraded at a later point to a 2 SSD system to prevent the bootup disk getting worn out super quick. This would save a lot of money (because the smaller drives are basically the same price as the bigger ones so the two small ones will be a lot more expensive than one big one) and allow me to make the system better at a later date.

SSD Example: £139.98 http://www.ebuyer.com/409850-samsung-250gb-840-series-ssd-mz-7td250bw

The $2000 system builder tomshardware just did is a pretty good example for the specs you want for a pretty fast Adobe After effects machine(Swap the 2x AMD graphics cards for a GTX 670/680 and this is about spot on for specifications).

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/build-computer-how-to-overclock-gaming,3363.html

Yeah, that seems about right. I can skimp on the cooling / GFX cards and also keep my existing PSU thus should be good.

Although I will still need a monitor at the end of this lets see what price we can get for all this!

We're doing great. I can't thank you guys enough for helping me I was quite overwhelmed but I think I'm starting to get to the end of my journey

Case: £89.29 | (any colour, whatevers cheapest) http://www.ebuyer.com/391898-fractal-design-r4-black-pearl-case-fd-ca-def-r4-bl
CPU: £247.96 | (DECIDED) http://www.ebuyer.com/349026-intel-core-i7-3770k-3-5ghz-socket-1155-8mb-cache-retail-boxed-processor-bx80637i73770k
HeatSync: £??.?? | (needs to be good enough for cpu running at 4.5ghz)
SSD: £139.98 | (changeable) http://www.ebuyer.com/409850-samsung-250gb-840-series-ssd-mz-7td250bw
HD: £??.?? | (min 1 TB)
RAM: £55.00 | (changeable) http://www.ebuyer.com/389201-corsair-16gb-ddr3-1600mhz-vengeance-performance-memory-cmz16gx3m2a1600c10r
PSU: £0 | (ALREADY OWN) OCZ Stealth X Stream Power Supply 600W
MOBO: £??.??
Monitor: £??.?? | (needs to be very nice, for graphics / video editing)
GFX Card: £??.?? | (In this order depending on remaining budget: GTX 680, GTX 670, Radeon 7870, will pick this last)

TOTAL: £532.23 of possible £1,000 ish

 

[JamesSneed]

I would go with the lower profile memory that way you don't have any physical size constraints on the CPU heat sink. Plus to be honest those tall heat sinks on memory are rather gimmicky and don't help cooling much at all. What BreadWhistle above was stating as well.

http://www.ebuyer.com/370064-corsair-vengeance-16gb-1600mhz-ddr3-memory-cml16gx3m2a1600c10

or

http://www.ebuyer.com/408618-crucial-16gb-ddr3-1600mhz-ballistix-sport-vlp-kit-bls2c8g3d1609es2lx0ceu

 

[Dorjan]

Case: £89.29 | (any colour, whatevers cheapest) http://www.ebuyer.com/391898-fractal-design-r4-black-pearl-case-fd-ca-def-r4-bl
CPU: £247.96 | (DECIDED) http://www.ebuyer.com/349026-intel-core-i7-3770k-3-5ghz-socket-1155-8mb-cache-retail-boxed-processor-bx80637i73770k
HeatSync: £??.?? | (needs to be good enough for cpu running at 4.5ghz)
SSD: £139.98 | (changeable) http://www.ebuyer.com/409850-samsung-250gb-840-series-ssd-mz-7td250bw
HD: £??.?? | (min 1 TB)
RAM: £67.59 | (DECIDED) http://www.ebuyer.com/370064-corsair-vengeance-16gb-1600mhz-ddr3-memory-cml16gx3m2a1600c10
PSU: £0 | (ALREADY OWN) OCZ Stealth X Stream Power Supply 600W
MOBO: £??.??
Monitor: £??.?? | (needs to be very nice, for graphics / video editing)
GFX Card: £??.?? | (In this order depending on remaining budget: GTX 680, GTX 670, Radeon 7870, will pick this last)

TOTAL: £544.82 of possible £1,000 ish

 

[JamesSneed]

Motherboard should be ATX sized Z77 chipset. This is your only real choice because of the case, CPU, and the fact you want to overclock. Most of these I linked would be good choices on the first couple pages however I would shy away from Biostar for this high end of a build. Motherboards from ASUS, Gigabyte, and MSI will be about features, number of ports, type of ports so its a rather personal. Pick based off of the features you need.

http://www.ebuyer.com/search?a00046=ATX&a00050=Intel+Z77+Express&subcat=3317&cat=14.