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Question about D70 flash

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May 5, 2005 2:08:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

I put the camera in 'P' mode and wanted to take a pic in my kitchen last night,
and noticed it would be a bit too low an 'F' number, and wanted more dof, so I
flipped up the flash... now I find the Program wheel doesn't do anything... it's
stuck on 1/60 F 4.

So I switch to 'A' mode and pick F16, and notice the speed is still 1/60, and
the pic comes out dark...

So I try F22 and the picture is almost black - still 1/60 second...

What's going on?

How do I get a proper fill flash?

Why did the camera pick a dark exposure instead of compensating?

Am I lacking enough power in the flash or what?

I'm missing something here... but I guess I need a bigger flash then the one in
the cam?

But shouldn't the camera pick something like 1/15 if I pick F16?

Maybe I programmed something wrong?

More about : question d70 flash

Anonymous
May 5, 2005 2:23:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

"Bob" <FlintsTone@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:i8vi715pvgdsmd123gskq0g21pc6jpr9lr@4ax.com...
>
> I put the camera in 'P' mode and wanted to take a pic in my kitchen last
night,
> and noticed it would be a bit too low an 'F' number, and wanted more dof,
so I
> flipped up the flash... now I find the Program wheel doesn't do
anything... it's
> stuck on 1/60 F 4.
>
> So I switch to 'A' mode and pick F16, and notice the speed is still 1/60,
and
> the pic comes out dark...
>
> So I try F22 and the picture is almost black - still 1/60 second...
>
> What's going on?
>
> How do I get a proper fill flash?
>
> Why did the camera pick a dark exposure instead of compensating?
>
> Am I lacking enough power in the flash or what?
>
> I'm missing something here... but I guess I need a bigger flash then the
one in
> the cam?
>
> But shouldn't the camera pick something like 1/15 if I pick F16?
>
> Maybe I programmed something wrong?

In the CSM menu, #21 is "Shutter Speed". This is the minimum speed to be
used with flash. Default is 1/60. The camera won't let you go slower with
flash active unless you change this setting.
Anonymous
May 5, 2005 6:17:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Bob <FlintsTone@nospam.com> wrote:

> So I try F22 and the picture is almost black - still 1/60 second...
>
> What's going on?
>
> How do I get a proper fill flash?

You want slow-sync mode. In normal flash mode the camera assumes you want
the flash to expose the picture, so the shutter speed will only go so slow.

You may also need to raise the flash exposure compensation.

--
Jeremy | jeremy@exit109.com
Related resources
Anonymous
May 5, 2005 2:09:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Bob wrote:

> I put the camera in 'P' mode and wanted to take a pic in my kitchen last night,
> and noticed it would be a bit too low an 'F' number, and wanted more dof, so I
> flipped up the flash... now I find the Program wheel doesn't do anything... it's
> stuck on 1/60 F 4.
>
> So I switch to 'A' mode and pick F16, and notice the speed is still 1/60, and
> the pic comes out dark...

As soon as you turn on the flash, you limit the shutter speed. As you
decrease the aperture area you're limiting the light returned from the
flash shot.

> So I try F22 and the picture is almost black - still 1/60 second...
>
> What's going on?
>
> How do I get a proper fill flash?

This is not "fill flash" you're attempting, you're trying to light a scene.

I suggest you turn off the flash, use a tripod and a longer exposure.


>
> Why did the camera pick a dark exposure instead of compensating?

It can only output so much flash power. You're choking it with the
aperture. Making the shutter speed longer won't help as the flash
duration is tiny compared to the shutter speed.


>
> Am I lacking enough power in the flash or what?

For what you're attemting, yes.

>
> I'm missing something here... but I guess I need a bigger flash then the one in
> the cam?

Not only that, but to light an area, it is difficult to impossible to
have even lighting with 1 flash, esp. camera mounted.

>
> But shouldn't the camera pick something like 1/15 if I pick F16?

You're making two exposure, ambient (shutter speed and aperture) and
flash (flash speed (1/500 or faster) and aperture. The flash is simply
not strong enough for the aperture chosen.

You could try increasing the ISO to 800 or 1600. But I doubt that you
will get very even lighting.

Best is to use ambient lighting, tripod and a long shutter. Offhand,
try 4 seconds @ f/22 @ ISO 100 and work from there. Forget the flash.

Cheers,
Alan


--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
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-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
May 6, 2005 3:07:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On Thu, 05 May 2005 10:09:44 -0400, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@freelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

>Bob wrote:
>
>> I put the camera in 'P' mode and wanted to take a pic in my kitchen last night,
>> and noticed it would be a bit too low an 'F' number, and wanted more dof, so I
>> flipped up the flash... now I find the Program wheel doesn't do anything... it's
>> stuck on 1/60 F 4.
>>
>> So I switch to 'A' mode and pick F16, and notice the speed is still 1/60, and
>> the pic comes out dark...
>
>As soon as you turn on the flash, you limit the shutter speed. As you
>decrease the aperture area you're limiting the light returned from the
>flash shot.
>
>> So I try F22 and the picture is almost black - still 1/60 second...
>>
>> What's going on?
>>
>> How do I get a proper fill flash?
>
>This is not "fill flash" you're attempting, you're trying to light a scene.

You're right!


>I suggest you turn off the flash, use a tripod and a longer exposure.
>
>
>>
>> Why did the camera pick a dark exposure instead of compensating?
>
>It can only output so much flash power. You're choking it with the
>aperture. Making the shutter speed longer won't help as the flash
>duration is tiny compared to the shutter speed.

OK I'm using all of the flash power as is... I hoped there was more!


>> Am I lacking enough power in the flash or what?
>
>For what you're attemting, yes.
>
>>
>> I'm missing something here... but I guess I need a bigger flash then the one in
>> the cam?
>
>Not only that, but to light an area, it is difficult to impossible to
>have even lighting with 1 flash, esp. camera mounted.
>
>>
>> But shouldn't the camera pick something like 1/15 if I pick F16?
>
>You're making two exposure, ambient (shutter speed and aperture) and
>flash (flash speed (1/500 or faster) and aperture. The flash is simply
>not strong enough for the aperture chosen.

I keep forgetting that the flash lighting is controlled by the aperture, not the
shutter speed...

When I used a film camera, ages ago, I seem to remember setting up a shot with a
long exposure time and a small aperture setting, and using the flash to add in
to the natural light... I think the idea was to set up for the flash and then
increase shutter time to get some natural light... so I guess I need to set up
for a normal flash in manual mode and then increase the time?

can I do this kind of thing with the D70? I need to study up on it a bit!!

>You could try increasing the ISO to 800 or 1600. But I doubt that you
>will get very even lighting.
>
>Best is to use ambient lighting, tripod and a long shutter. Offhand,
>try 4 seconds @ f/22 @ ISO 100 and work from there. Forget the flash.
>
>Cheers,
>Alan

Thanks for the advice!
Anonymous
May 6, 2005 11:18:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

> >
> > can I do this kind of thing with the D70? I need to study up on it
a bit!!
>
> See manual. A cable release and tripod are likely good investments.
>

Skip the cable release and get the ML-L3 wireless remote. B&H sells it
for $17.95 and it was worth every penny!
Anonymous
May 6, 2005 11:34:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On Wed, 04 May 2005 22:08:38 -0400, Bob wrote:

>
> I put the camera in 'P' mode and wanted to take a pic in my kitchen last night,
> and noticed it would be a bit too low an 'F' number, and wanted more dof, so I
> flipped up the flash... now I find the Program wheel doesn't do anything... it's
> stuck on 1/60 F 4.
>
> So I switch to 'A' mode and pick F16, and notice the speed is still 1/60, and
> the pic comes out dark...

Wrong mode. Pick M (manual mode) and set your shutter speed down low - to
around 1/15 or 1/30. The flash should output more power.

> So I try F22 and the picture is almost black - still 1/60 second...
>
> What's going on?

Wrong mode. However, if you absolutely must shoot in P or A mode, try
setting the flash mode to slow-synch.

> How do I get a proper fill flash?
>
> Why did the camera pick a dark exposure instead of compensating?
>
> Am I lacking enough power in the flash or what?

Yep, that's probably the case. The pop up is for snap shots, not serious
photography.

> I'm missing something here... but I guess I need a bigger flash then the one in
> the cam?

The SB-600 or SB-800 will open up a whole new world of flash photography
for you.

> But shouldn't the camera pick something like 1/15 if I pick F16?

Not with the flash up, unless you are using manual mode.

> Maybe I programmed something wrong?

--
"My beef about digital is that you see certain images out

there, and things are so digital and retouched that you lose

the person in the process - lose the rawness and the

touchability because it is just too perfect." ~ Tony Duran
Anonymous
May 6, 2005 2:10:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Bob wrote:

> On Thu, 05 May 2005 10:09:44 -0400, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@freelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>
>>Bob wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I put the camera in 'P' mode and wanted to take a pic in my kitchen last night,
>>>and noticed it would be a bit too low an 'F' number, and wanted more dof, so I
>>>flipped up the flash... now I find the Program wheel doesn't do anything... it's
>>>stuck on 1/60 F 4.
>>>
>>>So I switch to 'A' mode and pick F16, and notice the speed is still 1/60, and
>>>the pic comes out dark...
>>
>>As soon as you turn on the flash, you limit the shutter speed. As you
>>decrease the aperture area you're limiting the light returned from the
>>flash shot.
>>
>>
>>>So I try F22 and the picture is almost black - still 1/60 second...
>>>
>>>What's going on?
>>>
>>>How do I get a proper fill flash?
>>
>>This is not "fill flash" you're attempting, you're trying to light a scene.
>
>
> You're right!
>
>
>
>>I suggest you turn off the flash, use a tripod and a longer exposure.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Why did the camera pick a dark exposure instead of compensating?
>>
>>It can only output so much flash power. You're choking it with the
>>aperture. Making the shutter speed longer won't help as the flash
>>duration is tiny compared to the shutter speed.
>
>
> OK I'm using all of the flash power as is... I hoped there was more!
>

See not below. Even if you have a high powered flash, the 1/r^2 law
can't be avoided. The usual trick for this is to bounce the flash off a
white ceiling. (also softens the light and suppresses BG shaddows).
But f/22 simply cuts too much light. (from f/5.6 to f/22 is 4 stops or
16 times less light getting to the film).

> When I used a film camera, ages ago, I seem to remember setting up a shot with a
> long exposure time and a small aperture setting, and using the flash to add in
> to the natural light... I think the idea was to set up for the flash and then
> increase shutter time to get some natural light... so I guess I need to set up
> for a normal flash in manual mode and then increase the time?

Sure. Often an ambient light photo needs a kicker for some detail
somewhere even if the exposure time for the ambient is long. Just
remember that light falloff is 1/r^2, so a single flash cannot cover a
deep scene evenly.

If part of the scene is 2 meters away from the flash, and another part
is 4 meters away, there is a 2 stop difference in the amount of light
they are receiving. So the fore part could be properly exposed and the
further part will look muddy.

>
> can I do this kind of thing with the D70? I need to study up on it a bit!!

See manual. A cable release and tripod are likely good investments.

>
> Thanks for the advice!

You're welcome.

Cheers,
Alan



--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
Anonymous
May 6, 2005 7:18:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

In article <d5ftro$kg0$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>Bob wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 05 May 2005 10:09:44 -0400, Alan Browne
>> <alan.browne@freelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Bob wrote:

[ ... ]

>>>>Why did the camera pick a dark exposure instead of compensating?
>>>
>>>It can only output so much flash power. You're choking it with the
>>>aperture. Making the shutter speed longer won't help as the flash
>>>duration is tiny compared to the shutter speed.
>>
>>
>> OK I'm using all of the flash power as is... I hoped there was more!

There can be more -- with an additional flash unit or several.

>
>See not below. Even if you have a high powered flash, the 1/r^2 law
>can't be avoided. The usual trick for this is to bounce the flash off a
> white ceiling. (also softens the light and suppresses BG shaddows).
>But f/22 simply cuts too much light. (from f/5.6 to f/22 is 4 stops or
>16 times less light getting to the film).

Agreed. At least when limited to the on-camera flash only.

>> When I used a film camera, ages ago, I seem to remember setting up a shot with a
>> long exposure time and a small aperture setting, and using the flash to add in
>> to the natural light... I think the idea was to set up for the flash and then
>> increase shutter time to get some natural light... so I guess I need to set up
>> for a normal flash in manual mode and then increase the time?
>
>Sure. Often an ambient light photo needs a kicker for some detail
>somewhere even if the exposure time for the ambient is long. Just
>remember that light falloff is 1/r^2, so a single flash cannot cover a
>deep scene evenly.

So -- pick up a SB-800 (or an SB-600) or two or three, and
scatter them around. The D70 can act in "commander" mode to trigger
these as slave flashes off the camera -- no cables needed. Hide the
flash unit(s) behind foreground objects, oriented to illuminate the more
distant objects. Your on-camera flash will handle the nearer objects,
and the remote unit(s) will fill in the rest. (You do need to set the
"channel" number to match what is in the camera, and you have to go to
the camera's menu to select the "Commander" mode.)

>If part of the scene is 2 meters away from the flash, and another part
>is 4 meters away, there is a 2 stop difference in the amount of light
>they are receiving. So the fore part could be properly exposed and the
>further part will look muddy.

Which is why the remote units are nice. The unfortunate part of
that is that they are expensive. (I just got a SB-800, after comparing
the current prices on eBay to what the local Penn Camera charges, and
found that the prices were similar -- just that the eBay supplied a
little tabletop tripod to hold the flash -- and I already had that, so
why not support the local store -- and get instant gratification,
instead of the wait for the auction to close and the vendor to get
around to shipping it. :-)

I might eventually pick up a couple of SB-600s for secondary
slaves, but I don't think that I'll buy another SB-800, unless I find a
spectacular deal.

Hmm ... if you aren't going to be doing this a lot, perhaps
there is somewhere that you can rent the SB-800 or the SB-600?

>>
>> can I do this kind of thing with the D70? I need to study up on it a bit!!
>
>See manual. A cable release and tripod are likely good investments.

Except that the cable release does not work with the D70 --
there is no place to plug it in -- but the IR remote does.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
May 6, 2005 11:52:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On Fri, 06 May 2005 10:10:01 -0400, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@freelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

>Bob wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 05 May 2005 10:09:44 -0400, Alan Browne
>> <alan.browne@freelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Bob wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I put the camera in 'P' mode and wanted to take a pic in my kitchen last night,
>>>>and noticed it would be a bit too low an 'F' number, and wanted more dof, so I
>>>>flipped up the flash... now I find the Program wheel doesn't do anything... it's
>>>>stuck on 1/60 F 4.
>>>>
>>>>So I switch to 'A' mode and pick F16, and notice the speed is still 1/60, and
>>>>the pic comes out dark...
>>>
>>>As soon as you turn on the flash, you limit the shutter speed. As you
>>>decrease the aperture area you're limiting the light returned from the
>>>flash shot.
>>>
>>>
>>>>So I try F22 and the picture is almost black - still 1/60 second...
>>>>
>>>>What's going on?
>>>>
>>>>How do I get a proper fill flash?
>>>
>>>This is not "fill flash" you're attempting, you're trying to light a scene.
>>
>>
>> You're right!
>>
>>
>>
>>>I suggest you turn off the flash, use a tripod and a longer exposure.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Why did the camera pick a dark exposure instead of compensating?
>>>
>>>It can only output so much flash power. You're choking it with the
>>>aperture. Making the shutter speed longer won't help as the flash
>>>duration is tiny compared to the shutter speed.
>>
>>
>> OK I'm using all of the flash power as is... I hoped there was more!
>>
>
>See not below. Even if you have a high powered flash, the 1/r^2 law
>can't be avoided. The usual trick for this is to bounce the flash off a
> white ceiling. (also softens the light and suppresses BG shaddows).
>But f/22 simply cuts too much light. (from f/5.6 to f/22 is 4 stops or
>16 times less light getting to the film).
>
>> When I used a film camera, ages ago, I seem to remember setting up a shot with a
>> long exposure time and a small aperture setting, and using the flash to add in
>> to the natural light... I think the idea was to set up for the flash and then
>> increase shutter time to get some natural light... so I guess I need to set up
>> for a normal flash in manual mode and then increase the time?
>
>Sure. Often an ambient light photo needs a kicker for some detail
>somewhere even if the exposure time for the ambient is long. Just
>remember that light falloff is 1/r^2, so a single flash cannot cover a
>deep scene evenly.
>
>If part of the scene is 2 meters away from the flash, and another part
>is 4 meters away, there is a 2 stop difference in the amount of light
>they are receiving. So the fore part could be properly exposed and the
>further part will look muddy.


I see why you don't recommend flash!

>>
>> can I do this kind of thing with the D70? I need to study up on it a bit!!
>
>See manual. A cable release and tripod are likely good investments.

I can do better - I bought the infrared remote, only $20... but I do need a
better tripod.

>>
>> Thanks for the advice!
>
>You're welcome.
>
>Cheers,
>Alan
May 6, 2005 11:54:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On Fri, 06 May 2005 07:34:21 +0200, Roxy d'Urban <not@home.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 04 May 2005 22:08:38 -0400, Bob wrote:
>
>>
>> I put the camera in 'P' mode and wanted to take a pic in my kitchen last night,
>> and noticed it would be a bit too low an 'F' number, and wanted more dof, so I
>> flipped up the flash... now I find the Program wheel doesn't do anything... it's
>> stuck on 1/60 F 4.
>>
>> So I switch to 'A' mode and pick F16, and notice the speed is still 1/60, and
>> the pic comes out dark...
>
>Wrong mode. Pick M (manual mode) and set your shutter speed down low - to
>around 1/15 or 1/30. The flash should output more power.

I'm gonna go try that... I usually put the cam into manual when I'm trying weird
shots...


>> So I try F22 and the picture is almost black - still 1/60 second...
>>
>> What's going on?
>
>Wrong mode. However, if you absolutely must shoot in P or A mode, try
>setting the flash mode to slow-synch.
>
>> How do I get a proper fill flash?
>>
>> Why did the camera pick a dark exposure instead of compensating?
>>
>> Am I lacking enough power in the flash or what?
>
>Yep, that's probably the case. The pop up is for snap shots, not serious
>photography.
>
>> I'm missing something here... but I guess I need a bigger flash then the one in
>> the cam?
>
>The SB-600 or SB-800 will open up a whole new world of flash photography
>for you.
>
>> But shouldn't the camera pick something like 1/15 if I pick F16?
>
>Not with the flash up, unless you are using manual mode.
>
>> Maybe I programmed something wrong?
!