Big 7200rpm Harddrives - Are they too hot?

Guest · Dec 12, 2001

I'm helping out a friend with picking the bits for his new computer. His current computer is a Celeron 466 <shudder>.

He has expressed an interest in an 80gig 7200rpm ATA100 harddrive.

I read somewhere that drives this size, and bigger, run too hot. I therefore figure that it would not be a good idea to put a drive this size into a box with an Athlon XP CPU.

Is this true? Is this a valid consideration for my friends new Athlon XP 1700+ machine?

Thanks

Lars_Coleman · Dec 12, 2001

The size of the drive shouldn't really be what's making it hot. It's going to be the spin rate of the drive. Which is 7200RPM. So technically any 7200RPM drive that you get, be it 20GB or 80GB, will run some-what warm. That's all I would suggest anyone ever get is 7200RPM. Unless of course they're using it for data storage. Then they don't need that type of speed.

With an Athlon system your going to need good cooling anyways. A hard drive really isn't going to add to the temp a whole lot. I mean I have three in my system (All 7200RPM may I add) and I run a 36 C idle.

1GHz AMD x MSI K7T-Turbo x 512MB PC133 x 2-Maxtor 30GB/RAID 0 = Stream Line Butterfly

Guest · Dec 12, 2001

i have a Western Digital 7200RPM 100GB harddrive and i wouldn't consider it as running hot at all.
a lot of cases, especially the one i use, have fans that blow right across the harddrive itself, so staying cool is not a problem at all. i use an Antec SX1030 and it has a fan sucking in air and blowing over the harddrive, which is nice.

Guest · Dec 12, 2001

Great guys. Thanks for your thoughts. As the box I'm building him will also have air blowing directly across the harddrive, it should not be a problem.

Guest · Dec 12, 2001

Actually the size of the drive will play somewhat of a role in making the drive hot. Larger drive= more platters (if same gen drive)= more power required. The difference from 30 gig to 60 gig shouldn't be noticeable, but 30 gig and 100 or 120 gig may be noticeable. If you are concerned about heat at all, all you need is suficient airflow over the drive: either a case with built in cooling such as Lian-Li or Coolermaster cases, or a dedicated hard drive cooler such as Coolermaster's Cooldrive DCD-4002 which actually makes your hard drive quieter.

HonestJhon · Dec 12, 2001

another thing about the size playing into heat...
more platters equals more heat to dissipate.
and if the thing is spinning at 7200rpm or more....then you are going to be lookin at a hot drive.
but it isnt hot enough to kill the drive, or effect the performance of the computer...
think about it..they design these things to work in OEM computers...like ones built by HP or something, where there isnt much case cooling going on...
and if the drive was a heat issue, they would redesign it.
you shouldnt have to worry about it, especially if it is a mid sized or larger case, and like you said, there are fans blowing across it...it will be running well within specs.

-DAvid

-Live, Learn, then build your own computer!-

Lars_Coleman · Dec 12, 2001

Friction makes heat. Correct? The platters don't touch anything. What's making the heat is the bearing that's spinning at 7200RPM. A ball bearing at that.

When I stop my truck. The rotors get hot only when I apply friction from the brake pads. Only then does it get hot. Not when they're spinning free at 45mph w/ 2 squirrel power.

I see where you guys are coming from, but I just don't see the size of the drive really effecting the heat as much as maybe the rotation of the drive itself.

1GHz AMD x MSI K7T-Turbo x 512MB PC133 x 2-Maxtor 30GB/RAID 0 = Stream Line Butterfly

Guest · Dec 12, 2001

"and if the drive was a heat issue, they would redesign it."

ah... IBM 75GXP
friend sent in his 45GB 75GXP, got back a 60GB 60GXP
is that a redesign, or just admitting they screwed up?

HonestJhon · Dec 12, 2001

yeah, that is IBM admitting that they screwed up...
amazing isnt it? hehe.
and as for the brakes comparison, the platters in a hard drive are not out in the open...not as much air circulation inside the drive as compared to your moving truck.
if your wheels were spinning at 7200rpm, which i dont know if they could without exploding, due to lack of perfect balance, and the wheels were enclosed in a small place, then the rotor would probably get hot.
the heat from the bearing is transfered up the spindle, and into the platters, which retain the heat, and the more platters there are, the more heat is transferred to the inside of the hard drive instead of the outer shell, where the air flows.
i know a drive is not perfectly sealed, unless it is used in a jet, or satellite, where a winchester drive would have problems.
the more plattes a drive has, the more heat is retained, and the longer it will take to cool down once the drive is shut down.
also, depending on what the platters are made of.
some are made of glass, some are steel, most are aluminum.
i dont know if glass would be more likely to retain heat, or dissipate it, but i know that the glass platters are less likely to deform or expand due to heat.
aluminum platters and steel platters expand, and the floating head has to compensate for this.
if the drive heats up too much, or the platters deform too much, then the head cannot compensate, and causes errors, and more problems...like drive failure until it cools off.
maybe that is the probem with the 75gxp.
was it heating up?
also, what is the difference between the 60gxp, and the 75gxp?
is the 60gxp a lower end model???
if so, then IBM should also be doing some sort of rebate for the people who paid more for the 75!
anyone else think so?

-DAvid

-Live, Learn, then build your own computer!-

Lars_Coleman · Dec 12, 2001

Well no argument here.

My only point is that the heat comes from the rotation of the drive. Which you basically just said in your post :::"the heat from the bearing is transferred up the spindle, and into the platters,".

And my only other point about the brakes, is that friction makes heat.

Thanks anyways.

1GHz AMD x MSI K7T-Turbo x 512MB PC133 x 2-Maxtor 30GB/RAID 0 = Stream Line Butterfly

Spdy_Gonzales · Dec 12, 2001

My thinking is that larger drives means more platters, which means more weight to move around, which means higher power consumption, which means more heat. But what do I know.

"If it weren't for the last minute, alot of things wouldn't get done"

HonestJhon · Dec 12, 2001

actually, that adds to the heat too...
and yeah, lars, friction is what makes the heat, and there is friction in the bearings, no matter how good they are. even no contact bearings, which use magnets to "float" the rotating device, has friction, not a noticeable ammount, but there is air surrounding the thing.
however, there is also resistance in the motor, which causes heat creation.
like the circuts themselves, create heat.
i am just saying that the platters are where the heat is transferred, and the heat is harder to disperse when it is in the spindles because they are enclosed.

-DAvid

-Live, Learn, then build your own computer!-

Guest · Dec 13, 2001

"Friction makes heat. Correct?"
Nope. Energy creates heat and heat is energy.

Either way if you really think it is the bearings that create the heat and not the power going into the drive, then larger drive= more platters (if same gen drive)= more bearings

Edited by alpha112233 on 12/12/01 08:37 PM.

Guest · Dec 13, 2001

actually, the 60GXP's are higher than the 75GXP's if i'm not mistaken. the 60GXP's have a tighter packing (or whatever it's called, more per area) so the head has less travel.
in any case, it runs cooler. i think the 75GXP were running hot.

Lars_Coleman · Dec 13, 2001

I will remember that I can rub my hands together and it makes me cold and gives me more energy that makes me warm.

<A HREF="http://www.storagereview.com/welcome.pl/http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/op/spinOperation.html" target="_new">From StorageReview :::</A>

"One important quality issue that has become a focus of attention with newer hard disks is the amount of noise, heat and vibration they generate. The reason for this becoming more of an issue is the increase in spindle speed in most drives. On older hard disks that typically spun at 3600 RPM, this was much less of a problem. Some newer drives, especially 7200 and 10,000 RPM models, can make a lot of noise when they are running. If possible, it's a good idea to check out a hard disk in operation before you buy it, to assess its noise level and see if it bothers you; this varies greatly from individual to individual. The noise produced also varies to some extent depending on the individual drive even in the same family. Heat created by the spindle motor can eventually cause damage to the hard disk, which is why newer drives need more attention paid to their cooling."

"Increasing spindle motor speed creates many design challenges, particularly aimed at keeping vibration and heat under control. As discussed here, when the motor spins faster these become more of an issue; some high-end drives have very serious heat, vibration and noise problems that require special mounting and cooling work to allow them to run without problems. To some extent, there is a tradeoff between spindle speed, and the heat and noise issue. Engineers generally focus on keeping these matters under control, and usually improve them significantly after the first generation of drives at any given spindle speed. However, in some applications, using a slower and quieter drive can make sense."

1GHz AMD x MSI K7T-Turbo x 512MB PC133 x 2-Maxtor 30GB/RAID 0 = Stream Line Butterfly

HonestJhon · Dec 13, 2001

hmm, yeah, rubbin hands....cold.....energy...heat....
heat is a form of energy....but the motor does generate heat...
but even though the bearings reduce friction, they can only do that, reduce it.
they cannot eliminate friction.
the bearings will create some heat, and the electrical components will create heat as well.
all i know is that hard drives get pretty warm, and that can become a problem...but usually, a drive is manufactured to work in a system that does not have fans blowing directly across them...if they werent, then they would come with instructions to add a fan, or they would have fans built into them.
also, the manufacturer would get wayy too many drives returned to them to make selling drives worth it...and they would go out of business.(well, maybe not, that is an extreme.)
but i am pretty sure that they make drives so that they can run in a normal system.

the heat builds up in them, and the only way to directly cool them effectively, is to add one of those hard drive coolers, which contacts the base of the spindle, and removes the heat from the spindle, and in turn, the platters. there will still be heat tho...
cant avoid it, as long as the drive is operating, and spinning at it's rated speed.

-DAvid

-Live, Learn, then build your own computer!-

OldBear · Dec 13, 2001

Agree.Amen.

Remember.... You get what you pay for.

All advice here is free.

Lars_Coleman · Dec 13, 2001

The post was originally about what's going to be hotter. I think I covered that already, or I think you guys covered that. So I think I will learn to rip people's post's apart! Maybe it will make me feel like the dominant male!

1GHz AMD x MSI K7T-Turbo x 512MB PC133 x 2-Maxtor 30GB/RAID 0 = Stream Line Butterfly

Guest · Dec 14, 2001

I can also shine a ray of light on my hand and it gets warm, compress it in liquid or gas and it will get warmer, or zap it with electricity and it'll get a hell of a lot warmer. When you rub your hands together it is being moved by energy.

The faster a drive runs, the more energy is required to get it than fast and the more heat it will produce. The more platters you have in a drive, the more mass you will have to move needing more power (energy) and the more heat it will produce. Eugene at Storagereview said the faster a drive goes, the more issues there will be with heat. This is true until the motors (or spindle motors as Eugene put it) become more efficient in which they need less power to go the same speed. This is why 7200 rpm drives create about as much heat as 5200 rpm drives did years ago.

The larger a drive is, the more heat it will produce if it is the same gen drive. A difference of 30-60 Gb on the lastest 7200 rpm drives should show little to no difference, but 30-100 or 30-120 might.

The 60GXP is the successor to the 75GXP and most would say that since many failed right out of the box and hotter drives haven't had as many problems as them, that heat wasn't the main issue for most of them.

Lars_Coleman · Dec 14, 2001

Didn't you say "Nope. Energy creates heat and heat is energy.". So you are basically saying now that energy doesn't directly create heat but it causes it. Friction is caused by energy (I don't know how else you would get it!) which in turn makes HEAT! Which makes my original post correct.

Thanks for the information. Ten-four ... over and OUT.

1GHz AMD x MSI K7T-Turbo x 512MB PC133 x 2-Maxtor 30GB/RAID 0 = Stream Line Butterfly

Guest · Dec 15, 2001

Energy causes heat and heat is energy, therefor energy directly creates heat. You're welcome.

FatBurger · Dec 15, 2001

Mmm...kind of. Heat is wasted energy. In a frictionless environment where there's no wasted energy, there'd be no heat.

Quarter Pounder Inside

Guest · Dec 15, 2001

Without energy friction wouldn't exist, but if friction didn't exist heat definately would as long as energy exists.

FatBurger · Dec 15, 2001

"Without energy friction wouldn't exist"

Of course not, as nothing would be moving.

"if friction didn't exist heat definately(sic) would as long as energy exists."

That doesn't make much sense to me, so I'm not sure if I'm interpreting it correctly. Friction is what's creating the heat, as it is making the machine less energy-efficient and some energy is escaping as heat.

Quarter Pounder Inside

HonestJhon · Dec 15, 2001

i think that fatburger is right...
isnt the heat created by electronic components, like if you shorted a wire to both batterw terminals on a 9v battery for example, just created by the moving electrons?
and when they hit each other, because there is an eccess of them, they create heat...which COULD be interpreted as caused by friction...THIS WHOLE THING COULD BE WRONG, ANYONE CAN SAY SO...
but since that is so, then it would seem that friction is what causes heat, and energy is what causes motion, and without friction, then there would be no heat...
maybe something in this post of mine is correct...anyone?

-DAvid

-Live, Learn, then build your own computer!-

Big 7200rpm Harddrives - Are they too hot?

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