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New card is worse than on-board?

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a b U Graphics card
November 4, 2012 6:36:29 PM

I have an old ThinkCentre M51 with Intel 915 on-board graphic chip-set

I upgraded to Zotac GeForce GT 610 ( the PCI one - not the PCI-E ) and now streaming video is so choppy it is unusable ( yes the video is already completely downloaded ) and it really hasn't improved gaming ( other than being 3d and texture mapping compliant - opengl2).

Also it can't support emulators (like ePSX and DosBox) in full screen like my on-board could and it seems like the card is at it's limit trying to play movies (from disk or HD) in full screen

nVidia says I have the latest drivers installed.
No conflicts or errors from device manager.
Old drivers removed and chip-set disabled in bios and windows

If anyone has any suggestions or tips or can point out something I've done wrong or missed, your help is greatly appreciated.

Computer specs:

ThinkCentre 8143-YZQ
Pentium 4 3.0Ghz
2 GB RAM (DDR 400Mhz)
500W Corsair PSU



********UPDATE***********

Resolved ALL problems. Turned on all hardware options in the nvidia control, to maximum quality(not performance). Voila!
Streaming = Fixed, 1080p full-screen no problem (even while downloading)
Games ( Command and conquer3, Doom3, Sims2) = Fixed, Graphics set to "ultra high" and so on - minimal stutter/chop
Emulators ( DosBox and ePSX) = Fixed, Full-screen, aspect (not stretched) + filters for better graphics- perfect.

********UPDATE AGAIN*******
Turned comp. off at night. Turned back on and... Com. and Con. 3 won't even play with low graphics at 1920x1080.
Emulators = No dice on fullscreen in any way ( even low-res)
Streaming = Fixed with odd lag of chopping if I watch during D/L.
Video = Win media player can't play dvds anymore. Says there is an error between card and dvd codec? ( I just updated on 11/04/12 !) and TVP plays everything at 480p ( or equivalent. When everything in frame is stationary it is 1080p)
Not getting any help from Zotac ( card manufacturer) = BOO!!!

More about : card worse board

November 4, 2012 6:53:51 PM

Dom_79 said:
I have an old ThinkCentre M51 with Intel 915 on-board graphic chip-set

I upgraded to Zotac GeForce GT 610 ( the PCI one - not the PCI-E ) and now streaming video is so choppy it is unusable ( yes the video is already completely downloaded ) and it really hasn't improved gaming ( other than being 3d and texture mapping compliant - opengl2).

Also it can't support emulators (like ePSX and DosBox) in full screen like my on-board could and it seems like the card is at it's limit trying to play movies (from disk or HD) in full screen

nVidia says I have the latest drivers installed.
No conflicts or errors from device manager.
Old drivers removed and chip-set disabled in bios and windows

If anyone has any suggestions or tips or can point out something I've done wrong or missed, your help is greatly appreciated.

Computer specs:

ThinkCentre 8143-YZQ
Pentium 4 3.0Ghz
2 GB RAM (DDR 400Mhz)
500W Corsair PSU

Yea your GPU is really cruddy you should refund it and buy a better GPU also you should get a new CPU id suggest the amd radeon 7970.
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a b U Graphics card
November 4, 2012 6:58:46 PM

nikita787 said:
Yea your GPU is really cruddy you should refund it and buy a better GPU also you should get a new CPU id suggest the amd radeon 7970.


yeah thnx. I think that from reviews I've read that this card is near the limit of anything that my CPU could do. And I realize my computer is old. Can't afford a new one for 2 years yet so...
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a c 540 U Graphics card
November 4, 2012 7:07:22 PM

Your first mistake was purchasing a PCI graphics card instead of the preferable PCI Express graphics card.

Your motherboard has one PCI Express Revision 1.1 x16 graphics card slot so get the appropriate graphics card for it.

PCI bandwidth is so low when compared to PCI Express that I'm not surprised that you're seeing choppy graphics.

The GeForce GT 610 that you bought is just a rebranded GeForce GT 520 with circuit board and cooler updates.

What is your graphics card budget?
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November 4, 2012 7:07:53 PM

Dom_79 said:
yeah thnx. I think that from reviews I've read that this card is near the limit of anything that my CPU could do. And I realize my computer is old. Can't afford a new one for 2 years yet so...

Try shopping at ebay they have great deals on GPU's and CPU's at great deals I hope I helped :p 
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a b U Graphics card
November 4, 2012 7:20:10 PM

nikita787 said:
Yea your GPU is really cruddy you should refund it and buy a better GPU also you should get a new CPU id suggest the amd radeon 7970.


For the love of god, NO.
Do not listen to this guy telling you to drop $420 on a GPU to pair with a Pentium 4 processor.

The problem with the 610 is probably the fact that it was put into a PCI slot.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
A 6670 will only run you $50, and will be the maximum amount of power you can pair with your processor for your system.
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a b U Graphics card
November 4, 2012 7:26:05 PM

ko888 said:
Your first mistake was purchasing a PCI graphics card instead of the preferable PCI Express graphics card.

Your motherboard has one PCI Express Revision 1.1 x16 graphics card slot so get the appropriate graphics card for it.

PCI bandwidth is so low when compared to PCI Express that I'm not surprised that you're seeing choppy graphics.

The GeForce GT 610 that you bought is just a rebranded GeForce GT 520 with circuit board and cooler updates.

What is your graphics card budget?



The power supply plug is located less than 1.5 cm on the left side of the PCI-E plug ( the side of the card where all the cooling and such is located) There are no cards that have a flat surface to fit there. Also I bought an ASUS 8400GS Silent and took off the cooling plate so that it would fit. Mobo not compatible with anything but PCI-E 1.1 cards

After these last two boondoggles of videos cards (and the PSU was just for the video) I have no more budget :( 
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a b U Graphics card
November 4, 2012 7:36:46 PM

azathoth said:
For the love of god, NO.

Do not listen to this guy telling you to drop $420 on a GPU to pair with a Pentium 4 processor.

The problem with the 610 is probably the fact that it was put into a PCI slot.

But wouldn't streaming video be stored on the card memory once it is downloaded (so the communication time isn't a factor anymore). Also a youtube vid is like 800-900 MB's? that's divided by 242 seconds ( 4 minutes) and a PCI can do 133MB/sec.

HAHAHAHAHA!Good point ( the whole computer, including monitor, didn't cost 400$)
Thank you for the advice, but this mobo isn't PCI-E upwards compatible ( I have PCI-E 1.1 and have TRIED VERY HARD to get PCI-E 2.0 or better working. 5 seconds into system startup is the longest any has worked so far)
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a b U Graphics card
November 4, 2012 10:31:45 PM

Dom_79 said:
Also I bought an ASUS 8400GS Silent and took off the cooling plate so that it would fit. (


You took off the heatsink from the video card?
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a c 540 U Graphics card
November 4, 2012 11:09:41 PM

Based on the ThinkCentre M51 8143 model number you would think that it's a mid tower case and there shouldn't be any space problems even if it is a BTX form factor.
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a c 84 U Graphics card
November 4, 2012 11:17:10 PM

Dom_79 said:

Old drivers removed and chip-set disabled in bios and windows

umm could you clarifie this a bit... You didn't remove the chipset drivers for the mobo chipset did you? You still need those even if you aren't using the integrated gpu anymore.
Might explain the problems...
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a b U Graphics card
November 4, 2012 11:38:20 PM

azathoth said:
You took off the heatsink from the video card?


Yes. It is attached with 4 small screws. I know some of you are thinking the card overheated. It didn't because it never drew power, because it was not recognized or compatible with the mobo. Computer was not powered up with the card installed for more than 5 minutes- did not boot up past mobo bios, just hung there blank screen.
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a b U Graphics card
November 4, 2012 11:50:36 PM

ko888 said:
Based on the ThinkCentre M51 8143 model number you would think that it's a mid tower case and there shouldn't be any space problems even if it is a BTX form factor.


It's actually almost a full tower (18" tall - and inside there is nothing but space for air circulation,yay) and the problem of space is the Mother Board configuration and plug layout. The plug for the mother board power from the PSU is parallel to the PCI-E plug at a distance of 1.3cm. That means that the bottom front 2/3 of the video card can be no wider than 1.5cm ( the extra .2cm comes from the fact that the cards sit "inside" the plug) or it will be where the mobo power plug physically is.
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a b U Graphics card
November 4, 2012 11:58:11 PM

Kari said:
umm could you clarifie this a bit... You didn't remove the chipset drivers for the mobo chipset did you? You still need those even if you aren't using the integrated gpu anymore.
Might explain the problems...

was using nvidia drivers at times ( helped with some old dos games). Those were deleted.

The Intel drivers were Disabled (not deleted) by me through windows. I'm sorry to disagree with that, but I don't believe I do need to have my old on-board chip-set running if I am not using it at all.

But I always like to learn. Could you explain why I need to have my old chip-set running still? It uses up CPU and GPU like crazy to process two monitors and if I don't disable intel chip-set, I have no choice but dual monitor setup. Windows detects two working GPU's and that's it - you must be using two monitors.
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November 4, 2012 11:59:12 PM

azathoth said:
For the love of god, NO.
Do not listen to this guy telling you to drop $420 on a GPU to pair with a Pentium 4 processor.

The problem with the 610 is probably the fact that it was put into a PCI slot.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
A 6670 will only run you $50, and will be the maximum amount of power you can pair with your processor for your system.

I didnt just say to upgrade the GPU I also said the CPU still the GT series was a fail and the pentium 4 is really old.
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November 5, 2012 12:00:51 AM

Dom_79 said:
was using nvidia drivers at times ( helped with some old dos games). Those were deleted.

The Intel drivers were Disabled (not deleted) by me through windows. I'm sorry to disagree with that, but I don't believe I do need to have my old on-board chip-set running if I am not using it at all.

But I always like to learn. Could you explain why I need to have my old chip-set running still? It uses up CPU and GPU like crazy to process two monitors and if I don't disable intel chip-set, I have no choice but dual monitor setup. Windows detects two working GPU's and that's it - you must be using two monitors.

Dom Id suggest you put the GPU heatsink back on.
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a b U Graphics card
November 5, 2012 12:05:16 AM

nikita787 said:
I didnt just say to upgrade the GPU I also said the CPU still the GT series was a fail and the pentium 4 is really old.


Right but in my post I said " I have an Old Thinkcentre...". I was implying that I knew my CPU is old and I'm obviously trying to make the most of it.

I'm pretty sure anyone can figure out that if they want ANYTHING they own to perform better, an easy option is to go out and buy a newer better more expensive one. You don't need to point that out, thank you.
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a b U Graphics card
November 5, 2012 12:08:17 AM

nikita787 said:
Dom Id suggest you put the GPU heatsink back on.


O.K Nikita787. Please stop. You aren't reading the whole post. You aren't reading the other posts in the thread. You have just replied to the wrong post.
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November 5, 2012 12:08:44 AM

Dom_79 said:
Right but in my post I said " I have an Old Thinkcentre...". I was implying that I knew my CPU is old and I'm obviously trying to make the most of it.

I'm pretty sure anyone can figure out that if they want ANYTHING they own to perform better, an easy option is to go out and buy a newer better more expensive one. You don't need to point that out, thank you.

Im not saying the pentium series is bad infact it is pretty good im just saying its old.
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November 5, 2012 12:13:04 AM

What have you got to loose, try re-installing the chipset drivers. I do agree you need them as i think they run the PCI bus's in someway manor or form.
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a b U Graphics card
November 5, 2012 12:29:23 AM

dormantreign said:
What have you got to loose, try re-installing the chipset drivers. I do agree you need them as i think they run the PCI bus's in someway manor or form.


Well even if I hadn't already resolved the issue... the drivers for the on-board graphic chip-set don't interact with the drivers for the PCI bus in any way. Why would they? The on-board graphic chip-set doesn't connect to the board with PCI or PCI-E. It's directly on the board. It seems odd that a graphic chip-set which does not need to interact with the expansion slots would have code in it's drivers that the mobo or os require to run said expasion slots.

Also the drivers are still on the hd, ready to be accessed if needed. They are just disabled in device manager (windows) and in bios ( set to seek and use PCI video, on-board disabled)
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a c 84 U Graphics card
November 5, 2012 4:51:11 PM

Dom_79 said:
was using nvidia drivers at times ( helped with some old dos games). Those were deleted.

The Intel drivers were Disabled (not deleted) by me through windows. I'm sorry to disagree with that, but I don't believe I do need to have my old on-board chip-set running if I am not using it at all.

But I always like to learn. Could you explain why I need to have my old chip-set running still? It uses up CPU and GPU like crazy to process two monitors and if I don't disable intel chip-set, I have no choice but dual monitor setup. Windows detects two working GPU's and that's it - you must be using two monitors.


normally when people talk about chipset drivers they mean the whole set of drivers for the mobo's chipset, these will include anything from LAN controllers, usb controllers, north/southbridge, pcie etc busses, the whole lot and I'm sure I left something out.... (and typically they come bundled into one big lump of a driver)
So basically unisntalling mobo chipset drivers is like amputating your legs, you can still wave your arms around but wont be moving much.

At this point I dont really know what you have done. lol even after reading that last post of yours...
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a c 540 U Graphics card
November 5, 2012 5:37:38 PM

@Dom_79, what motherboard BIOS version are you using? I think Version 2BKT53A was the last one ever released back on February 1, 2008.

Lenovo's drivers for that system had the Intel chipset drivers separate from the Intel video driver for the integrated GMA 900.
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a b U Graphics card
November 5, 2012 6:03:58 PM

nikita787 said:
Yea your GPU is really cruddy you should refund it and buy a better GPU also you should get a new CPU id suggest the amd radeon 7970.


Why would you recommend a 400$ card to someone that has a old Pentium processor ?
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a b U Graphics card
November 6, 2012 1:05:01 PM

Kari said:
normally when people talk about chipset drivers they mean the whole set of drivers for the mobo's chipset, these will include anything from LAN controllers, usb controllers, north/southbridge, pcie etc busses, the whole lot and I'm sure I left something out.... (and typically they come bundled into one big lump of a driver)
So basically unisntalling mobo chipset drivers is like amputating your legs, you can still wave your arms around but wont be moving much.

At this point I dont really know what you have done. lol even after reading that last post of yours...


I had some nvidia gpu drivers floating around my system. I found and deleted them. I went to control panel in windows. I selected displays. I selected the "display" that was working on the Intel 910 Express graphics intergrated chip-set. I checked it off as disabled- no longer enabled. Windows still kept trying to force a dual monitor setup. I went to Add/remove programs. I changed Intel Integrated.... to inactive. Didn't help. so I went back and clicked remove. The drivers are still on the system. But winodws had stopped trying to force dual display.

Thanks for the tip about how people refer to chip-set drivers. In the future I will only refer to chip-set drivers when I'm talking about the mobo chip-set. CHEERS!
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a b U Graphics card
November 6, 2012 1:12:34 PM

ko888 said:
@Dom_79, what motherboard BIOS version are you using? I think Version 2BKT53A was the last one ever released back on February 1, 2008.

Lenovo's drivers for that system had the Intel chipset drivers separate from the Intel video driver for the integrated GMA 900.


That is the Bios I am using. Yes as I understand it, the mobo chip-set drivers are completely separate from the on-board graphics. I didn't realize I was only supposed to use the term chip-set driver when talking about mobo chip-sets. The integrated graphic chip-set which I'll assume is only referred to as integrated graphics is the only things I disabled or removed.

All the mobo drivers are UN-TOUCHED. I would like to know how anyone thought I was using a computer with no mobo drivers or bios. I thought that was impossible! Thanks in advance for the info, CHEERS!
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a b U Graphics card
November 6, 2012 1:16:01 PM

abCasPeRR said:
Why would you recommend a 400$ card to someone that has a old Pentium processor ?

Because he's angry the only solution to his problem is to buy very expensive components. Now he tells everyone that the solution to their issue is expensive upgrades/replacements.
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a c 84 U Graphics card
November 6, 2012 1:53:29 PM

ok, so you disabled/removed the integrated gpu from the windows device manager. Windows might still at some point discover it as a new device and enable it on its own. You should disable the integrated gpu from the BIOS instead.

And using pc without mobo drivers is possible, it just wont work very well or fast... This is the case after a fresh installation of windows for example, windows has some generic drivers so everything works just well enough so that the system boots etc and makes it possible to install the proper drivers.

And you'd be surprised how many ppl come on these forums looking for help after a video card upgrade when they have uninstalled every driver that had nvidia or ati/amd on the name and didnt realise that their mobo had a chipset made by nvidia or ati/amd and they shouldn't have removed those drivers, just the graphics drivers. Though it has gotten better in recent years after Intel prevented nvidia from making chipset/mobos for their recent cpus...
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a b U Graphics card
November 6, 2012 8:06:57 PM

Kari said:
ok, so you disabled/removed the integrated gpu from the windows device manager. Windows might still at some point discover it as a new device and enable it on its own. You should disable the integrated gpu from the BIOS instead.

And using pc without mobo drivers is possible, it just wont work very well or fast... This is the case after a fresh installation of windows for example, windows has some generic drivers so everything works just well enough so that the system boots etc and makes it possible to install the proper drivers.

And you'd be surprised how many ppl come on these forums looking for help after a video card upgrade when they have uninstalled every driver that had nvidia or ati/amd on the name and didnt realise that their mobo had a chipset made by nvidia or ati/amd and they shouldn't have removed those drivers, just the graphics drivers. Though it has gotten better in recent years after Intel prevented nvidia from making chipset/mobos for their recent cpus...


Thanks again for the advice on the whole chip-set thing ( I really hate how reading that seems sarcastic - I didn't type it like that, lol)

Yes, the on-board GPU is as disabled as it can get in the mobo bios (at power-up right? just so I'm on the same page :) 

And what I mean by "disabled as it can get" is I have seen in some bios that an actual option "disable on-board" is an option. For me all the change is where to look (IGP, PCI, PEG) and I pick PCI. Which is weird because what the heck is PEG on the mobo. I just have 2xPCI, 1xPCI-E( 1 lane) and 1xPCI-E( 16 lane)
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a c 540 U Graphics card
November 7, 2012 5:27:43 AM

PEG = PCI Express Graphics

It refers to the discrete PCI Express graphics card in the PCI Express x16 slot.
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a c 84 U Graphics card
November 7, 2012 1:39:07 PM

no prob, and that sounds just rigth. :) 
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a b U Graphics card
November 7, 2012 2:41:15 PM

Well after d/l'ing CPU-Z and GPU-Z and checking more in windows I have found some things that seem to indicate that this card is not compatible with my system.

Examples:
-CPU-Z and Windows detects 1024MB memory on the 512MB GT610 card ( GPU-Z detects 512MB- phew?)
-GPU-Z and Windows detect the GT610 in PCI-E 1.1 x1 ( and they like to tell me that the card is PCI-E 1.1 x16 compatible and that slot is free)

I'm starting to think the Mobo chip-set drivers only wants a GPU on-board or in PCI-E 1.1 slots. If that's the case I only have one thing to say: Boo-ooo Intel. Very much Boo-ooo. :non: 
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a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2012 12:59:42 AM

Dom_79 said:
Well after d/l'ing CPU-Z and GPU-Z and checking more in windows I have found some things that seem to indicate that this card is not compatible with my system.

Examples:
-CPU-Z and Windows detects 1024MB memory on the 512MB GT610 card ( GPU-Z detects 512MB- phew?)
-GPU-Z and Windows detect the GT610 in PCI-E 1.1 x1 ( and they like to tell me that the card is PCI-E 1.1 x16 compatible and that slot is free)

I'm starting to think the Mobo chip-set drivers only wants a GPU on-board or in PCI-E 1.1 slots. If that's the case I only have one thing to say: Boo-ooo Intel. Very much Boo-ooo. :non: 


For GPU-z indicating that the card is in a 1.1 slot means that its in a low power state. If you click on the ? mark next to it and run the stress test. It will change that.
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a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2012 2:39:08 AM

@abcasperr

Thanks in advance for the advice
Just tried that but it did not change. Also, should the little image it produces be smooth at all? Or is it supposed to look like chopping is the only thing it does? :??: 
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a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2012 3:05:42 AM

The choppyness is just because the card you have isnt very powerful. A higher end card wouldnt do that. And your video card is a PCI correct? If it is thats probably why, I remember you saying that earlier. My bad if thats what it was. If it was a PCI card then it will only run in 1.1. If it was a PCIe card and it did that, thats what you would have to do to fix that problem.
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a b U Graphics card
November 19, 2012 3:10:07 AM

So after all this time, Zotac support got back to me and told me to return the card. After that I decided to inspect the physical properties of this card. This is what I found.

Zotac buys the GPU/chipset and card pre-assembled from another company (nvidia?). They solder to it a few resistors/capacitors- if I'm not mistaken those are the boxy/cylinder things that stick up from the card (as opposed to the chips).
The soldering job is the problem. For anyone who knows about these types of things (I used to repair/assemble in the canal hearing aids under a microscope with tweezers) the quality of the job was VERY poor to say the least.

There was solder spatter on a third of the card. It was bridging circuit lines. Also, the solder was filled with air bubbles and the surface was completely opaque (properly applied solder has a shiny/mirror like finish). That being said it could easily be the capacitors/resistors that were damaged when soldered on- if the solder was poor quality/ poorly applied, then what else was third rate? :non: 

Very many thanks to all who helped, I'll never take for granted that if there isn't packaging damage then the product must be properly assembled/ un-damaged. :hello: 

P.S.: Tom's Hardware and the forum experts are AWESOME!!!!! Thanks again!
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a b U Graphics card
November 19, 2012 3:37:15 AM

Dom_79 said:
So after all this time, Zotac support got back to me and told me to return the card. After that I decided to inspect the physical properties of this card. This is what I found.

Zotac buys the GPU/chipset and card pre-assembled from another company (nvidia?). They solder to it a few resistors/capacitors- if I'm not mistaken those are the boxy/cylinder things that stick up from the card (as opposed to the chips).
The soldering job is the problem. For anyone who knows about these types of things (I used to repair/assemble in the canal hearing aids under a microscope with tweezers) the quality of the job was VERY poor to say the least.

There was solder spatter on a third of the card. It was bridging circuit lines. Also, the solder was filled with air bubbles and the surface was completely opaque (properly applied solder has a shiny/mirror like finish). That being said it could easily be the capacitors/resistors that were damaged when soldered on- if the solder was poor quality/ poorly applied, then what else was third rate? :non: 

Very many thanks to all who helped, I'll never take for granted that if there isn't packaging damage then the product must be properly assembled/ un-damaged. :hello: 

P.S.: Tom's Hardware and the forum experts are AWESOME!!!!! Thanks again!


NVIDIA is the company who makes the chipset for the GPU, just like ATI makes the chipsets for their Radeon cards, companies like Asus, Sapphire, Zotac, HIS, and all the other GPU producers use these chipsets that the main companies make (Nvidia, ATI(AMD) as the GPU's heat up and get used they will end up being soldered.
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a c 84 U Graphics card
November 19, 2012 5:51:52 AM

Dom_79 said:
the surface was completely opaque (properly applied solder has a shiny/mirror like finish).
thats not necessarily the case anymore, quite a lot of the modern lead-free solder alloys have that opaque/dull surface even when properly soldered, so it's not as diagnostic 'feature' as it used to be with tin-lead solders.
Other points you mentioned are still valid :D 
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a c 540 U Graphics card
November 19, 2012 3:45:56 PM

The SMD components aren't soldered to the PCB by hand. It's done using reflow soldering that uses a solder paste and a reflow oven to apply the heat. This doesn't mean the results will always be perfect but it's less error prone than those done by humans.

But still, a bad soldering job is a bad soldering job. I would question if any QA was ever done on your card.
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a b U Graphics card
November 19, 2012 6:14:05 PM

I also was wondering if there had been QA of any kind performed on the card. The PCI connector pins were perfect before install - the only part of the card I can remember having a good look at before/during the install (while I compressed air canned the PCI slot). After removing it I noticed what appeared to be a jumper pin "plug" but it only had two posts and was 3/4 enshrouded. I believe that might have been a plug for a manufacturer QA tool, but I really am guessing at that part.

Whatever the case may be I have returned the card to the website I bought it from and THEY will definitely test it out properly.

Here's to refunds with no re-stocking or shippment fees!( Hopefully :pt1cable:  )

I think I understand what it is you are talking about ko888, in regards the reflow technique. I questioned wether that might be the case, but considering that the entire card was coverd in a black filmcote of some kind and the cap/res. that I'm referring to were obviously soldered (in whatever fashion) after the fact, I guessed that it might have been done by hand. Also with reflow I thought it gave a very consistent solder (like for the chips). These component's solder joints were visibly "glopped" on. Anyhow thanks for the advice, much appreciated!
Cheers all! :) 
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