How important is checkerboard support for 3D Gaming?

[Dralger]

So I've decided to pick up a new 3D TV and I'm considering various options. Still undecided on plasma vs led, would like some opinions on which is better for 3D gaming.

Also wondering how important checkerboard support is. I see now where that has been added into 3DTV Play, but its not easy to find it on many TV models. Apparently only the high end Samsung LED's have it for 2012 (7000, 7500, 8000) but they are all pretty overpriced and come with so many "smart" features that I simply do not need as I have a PC hooked up to my TV.

I could go with an older TV such a 2011 Samsung LED's, or 2010 LED & Plasma.... but am I losing out on quality with an older model just to get checkerboard? Is that worth it? Funny thing is those older TV's cost just as much as the new ones at most places... I guess supply & demand at work, maybe because people want checerboard?

Otherwise most options only give T/B, SBS and framepacked, which means no 1080p@60 on 3DTV Play. Should I even worry about checkerboard for 3DTV Play? I keep hearing about TriDef gaming and that it will support SBS at 1080p60hz. How good is TriDef vs 3DTV Play, are there many games that work on one but not the other? Is it worth paying more / getting an older TV just to have checkerboard so I can do 3DTV Play at 1080p/60 ? Or should I just say screw it and get a cheaper / newer model such as the Samsung PN51E550 (very nice price) and use TriDef for gaming in SBS?

What about HDMI 1.4a? I have a GTX 670 that supports that, I believe that will support 1080i@60hz with frame packing and therefore 3DTV Play. Has anyone seen how that looks, is that good enough that I shouldn't worry about checkerboard support on a TV?

Thoughts?

 

[bystander]

I assume this setup is for the purpose of getting a 3D TV and still be able to play 3D games? 3D gaming on passive systems have some real draw backs, most notably is a much lower resolution, since half the screen is only viewable by each eye.

I personally have no experience with passive systems, so I can't really help you. If this system is for gaming and not for your living room TV experience, I'd suggest looking into 3D Vision.

 

[Dralger]

Yes around 50" size 3D TV for 3D gaming. All the systems I'm looking at are Active Shutter glasses to go with the TV, not passive. 3D Vision doesn't work for me as I game with wireless keyboard & mouse from my recliner on a 50" screen, can't go back to a desk and a monitor.

 

[bystander]

As far as I'm aware, you cannot get a screen that will work at 1080p with 60hz per eye on a TV until they start supporting HDMI 1.4b, dual link DVI-D or displayport. You'll be limited to 720p and frame packing with HDMI 1.4a, unless you are ok with 30hz.

 

[chugot9218]

As far as I'm aware, you cannot get a screen that will work at 1080p with 60hz per eye on a TV until they start supporting HDMI 1.4b, dual link DVI-D or displayport. You'll be limited to 720p and frame packing with HDMI 1.4a, unless you are ok with 30hz.

I have not yet looked into it but find that hard to believe, one of the biggest selling points on those TV's is full HD 3D, your telling me it is not actually possible because the physical hardware (hdmi port) on the TV is not up to snuff? So my 240hz panasonic plasma TV will never be able to do full HD 3d? As I said, I find this hard to believe.

 

[bystander]

After looking around on this checkerboard 3D that you are asking about, I'll give you a summary of what it is.

As I mentioned above, HDMI 1.4a and below cannot support 1080p@60hz per eye. This causes you to have to drop to 720p for 60hz per eye. The scaling down to 720p can be very poor.

Checkboard 3D will basically interlace the image, so each eye sees half resolution. I'm not really sure this would be better or not. Those with passive systems find that this causes text to be almost unreadable.

 

[bystander]

I have not yet looked into it but find that hard to believe, one of the biggest selling points on those TV's is full HD 3D, your telling me it is not actually possible because the physical hardware (hdmi port) on the TV is not up to snuff? So my 240hz panasonic plasma TV will never be able to do full HD 3d? As I said, I find this hard to believe.

TV's have it MUCH easier. They only need 24hz per eye. That is what movies use. They then take that 24FPS of input, and make up images between them to give you 120hz or 240hz, but the input is still only 24hz per eye.

Through frame packing, which sends 2 images at once, then displays each image on every other frame, you can send it at 720p@60hz per eye.

Look up the modes available up to HDMI 1.4a here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI

Note that HDMI 1.4b can receive 120hz, but that spec hasn't been used yet.

So you don't have to search:

HDMI 1.4a was released on March 4, 2010 and adds two additional mandatory 3D formats for broadcast content, which was deferred with HDMI 1.4 in order to see the direction of the 3D broadcast market.[144][145] HDMI 1.4a has defined mandatory 3D formats for broadcast, game, and movie content.[144] HDMI 1.4a requires that 3D displays support the frame packing 3D format at either 720p50 and 1080p24 or 720p60 and 1080p24, side-by-side horizontal at either 1080i50 or 1080i60, and top-and-bottom at either 720p50 and 1080p24 or 720p60 and 1080p24.[145]

HDMI 1.4b was released on October 11, 2011.[146] One of the new features is that it adds support to 1080p video at 120 Hz.[147] All future versions of the HDMI specification will be made by the HDMI Forum that was created on October 25, 2011.[15][148]

 

[chugot9218]

Hmm, it is very difficult finding information on the HDMI versions of a product, and even about the HDMI versions itself, mainly because the certification board does not allow manufacturers to advertise specific HDMI versions. Do you have any idea if the physical hardware remains the same between main versions? I.e. 1.4 can support all 1.4 versions, a/b, etc... I am also frustrated in that I ordered several HDMI cables yesterday without thinking about the standards, and of course, they do not advertise the type either. I see that it likely will not make much of a difference but I would care to know anyways.

 

[Dralger]

Well from what I can tell, TriDef3D will support gaming in Side By Side or Top / Bottom modes at 1080p/60hz over HDMI 1.4a.

I suppose the only reason to care about checkerboard is for 3DTV Play by nVidia, as it only has frame packed or checkkerboard as options, and with a TV that can do checkerboard I could at least get 1080p/60hz doing that... though like you point out checkerboard is sort of a fake half pixel 1080p. Seems like finding a TV that supports checkerboard is very difficult to do anymore and I'll just have to be happy with TriDef for my 1080p/60hz 3D gaming. nVidia has announced plans to add SBS & TB support to 3DTV Play but no real eta as of yet. Frame packed is just far too limiting for 3D gaming now and will have to wait for 1.4b video cards and displays, unless you game on a smaller 3D TV where 720p looks ok.

 

[bystander]

Well from what I can tell, TriDef3D will support gaming in Side By Side or Top / Bottom modes at 1080p/60hz over HDMI 1.4a.

I suppose the only reason to care about checkerboard is for 3DTV Play by nVidia, as it only has frame packed or checkkerboard as options, and with a TV that can do checkerboard I could at least get 1080p/60hz doing that... though like you point out checkerboard is sort of a fake half pixel 1080p. Seems like finding a TV that supports checkerboard is very difficult to do anymore and I'll just have to be happy with TriDef for my 1080p/60hz 3D gaming. nVidia has announced plans to add SBS & TB support to 3DTV Play but no real eta as of yet. Frame packed is just far too limiting for 3D gaming now and will have to wait for 1.4b video cards and displays, unless you game on a smaller 3D TV where 720p looks ok.

I do not believe TriDef will allow for 1080p/60hz in 3D either. It doesn't for me and I know my monitor has HDMI 1.4a (it also has dual link DVI-D which is how I normally play).

HDMI 1.4a and below cannot do 1080p/60hz in 3D. Checkerboard is a method to drop the resolution down to half, so it is similar to 720p, only it doesn't have scaling issues. Top down and side to side 3D is similar in that it cuts the resolution in half.

 

[Dralger]

Yea I meant TriDef will do it in side by side or top / down as you mentioned, nothing does it framepacked at the moment sadly. I was reading the owner's manual for the PN51E550 off of Samsung's website, they do mention that it supports 1080i/60hz over HDMI frame packed, I'm pretty sure this is a 1.4a standard so I guess that TV has that, I know my GTX670 is 1.4a so I wonder how good 1080i would look over framed packed vs 720p frame packed or 1080p SBS / TopDown.... anyone tried 1080i/60hz framed packed 3D yet?

 

[bystander]

Yea I meant TriDef will do it in side by side or top / down as you mentioned, nothing does it framepacked at the moment sadly. I was reading the owner's manual for the PN51E550 off of Samsung's website, they do mention that it supports 1080i/60hz over HDMI frame packed, I'm pretty sure this is a 1.4a standard so I guess that TV has that, I know my GTX670 is 1.4a so I wonder how good 1080i would look over framed packed vs 720p frame packed or 1080p SBS / TopDown.... anyone tried 1080i/60hz framed packed 3D yet?

I believe the 1080i/60hz is how Polarized systems do it, every other line goes to one eye, and the other line goes to the other. I've never heard of active shutter glasses doing this, but It should work with frame packing.

As far as how it looks, you can expect it to look like most polarized systems do, only it would still have the crosstalk drawback. I think I'd rather go polarized then active shutter if you were limited to 1080i