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DSLR with live-Histogram

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Anonymous
August 16, 2005 5:22:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Hi...
Since its not possible to get a full live-preview, how can i get the
metering of a picture right? When adjusting apperture and shutter on my
dimage 7i I can watch the live histogram, and move it wher i want it to be.

Is this possible with any DSLR? I'm afraid its not possible, since the large
sensor is behind the mirror, but how is A and S calculated when im in
Auto-Mode anyway?

Thomas

More about : dslr live histogram

Anonymous
August 16, 2005 5:22:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On a P&S, the sensor is always in the light path, so realtime image on
the LCD is possible. An SLR sticks the reflex mirror in the path of
the light, AND the real shutter is closed, so the sensor sees nothing
until you fire the shutter. Therefore DSLR does not permit realtime
viewing and histogram. You 'pay a price' for seeing exactly what the
lens sees, in terms of the reflex mirror and shutter blinding the
sensor until time of exposure.
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 5:22:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

<<but how is A and S calculated when im in
Auto-Mode anyway? >>

In most SLRs a small amount of light is diverted from the viewfinder
light, and the aperture and speed are calculated by that, immediately
prior to mirror going up and opening the shutter. In some designs
(Olympus OM-4), the photosensor lies at the bottom of the camera body
and points at the film, so it is able to monitor changes in light as
the exposure is actually made -- off the film 'OTF'!
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Anonymous
August 16, 2005 5:22:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Thomas Müller wrote:

> Since its not possible to get a full live-preview, how can i get the
> metering of a picture right?

Before the dSLR, there was the SLR.
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 5:22:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Thomas Müller wrote:

> Hi... Since its not possible to get a full live-preview, how can i
> get the metering of a picture right? When adjusting apperture and
> shutter on my dimage 7i I can watch the live histogram, and move it
> wher i want it to be.
>
> Is this possible with any DSLR? I'm afraid its not possible, since
> the large sensor is behind the mirror, but how is A and S calculated
> when im in Auto-Mode anyway?

DSLR's meter as SLR's... in most cases today, the metering is done up in
the pentaprism area. If your DSLR has a spot meter, then you can point
it at your highlights and set for +1.5 to +2 (camera model dependant)
and get a fairly full histogram on the highlight side.

Or, in true chimpeze, take a test shot and adjust.

Cheers,
Alan


--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 5:22:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

>Actually a Pellicle Mirror DSLR could allow such real time viewing..
>Canon made several film cameras with such a system.

Yes, I know. Canon tried the pellicle on a couple of different
cameras. The 'split' light path robbed the film of light and also
robbed the finder of brightness, and the pellicle also suffered the
issue of dust on the pellicle in the light path to the film.

I wasn't trying to write a comprehensive article on behind-the-lens, as
some cameras also used mirrors with partial silvering in one small area
(a take-off on the pellicle concept) to provide realtime metering.

--wilt

--Wilt
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 5:22:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On 15 Aug 2005 16:27:17 -0700, "wilt" <wiltw@aol.com> wrote:

>On a P&S, the sensor is always in the light path, so realtime image on
>the LCD is possible. An SLR sticks the reflex mirror in the path of
>the light, AND the real shutter is closed, so the sensor sees nothing
>until you fire the shutter. Therefore DSLR does not permit realtime
>viewing and histogram. You 'pay a price' for seeing exactly what the
>lens sees, in terms of the reflex mirror and shutter blinding the
>sensor until time of exposure.

Actually a Pellicle Mirror DSLR could allow such real time viewing..
Canon made several film cameras with such a system.

http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics...

The RT in the EOS-RT stands for "Real Time".


********************************************************

"A nice man is a man of nasty ideas."

_Introductions to History of the Reformation_
Jonathan Swift
1667-1745
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 5:22:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

In article <1124148437.314324.300350@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
wilt <wiltw@aol.com> wrote:
>On a P&S, the sensor is always in the light path, so realtime image on
>the LCD is possible. An SLR sticks the reflex mirror in the path of
>the light, AND the real shutter is closed, so the sensor sees nothing
>until you fire the shutter. Therefore DSLR does not permit realtime
>viewing and histogram. You 'pay a price' for seeing exactly what the
>lens sees, in terms of the reflex mirror and shutter blinding the
>sensor until time of exposure.

Blinding and *protecting* the sensor. Without that, a chance
positioning of the camera -- perhaps when you set it down outdoors, can
focus an image of the sun directly onto the focal plane, and the larger
lenses in DSLRs can gather and focus more energy onto the focal plane,
thus increasing the chances of damage. (Old film SLRs sometimes used
rubberized cloth focal plane shutters, and these could also be damaged
by focusing the sun onto the shutter -- resulting in a pinhole in the
shutter curtain, which will spoil all subsequent film exposures. Modern
focal plane shutters are typically very thin titanium metal, which can
easily stand the temperatures of such an image -- but you still risk
damaging the focusing and exposure sensors in the focusing screen. (And
the focusing and exposure sensors in the focusing screen are how the
camera determines its exposure settings, to deal with the second
question in your original post. (Perhaps some other followup dealt with
that, but this one did not, so I decided to toss it in now.

Good Luck,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 8:14:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

> Hi...
> Since its not possible to get a full live-preview, how can i get the
> metering of a picture right? When adjusting apperture and shutter on my
> dimage 7i I can watch the live histogram, and move it wher i want it to
be.
>
> Is this possible with any DSLR? I'm afraid its not possible, since the
large
> sensor is behind the mirror, but how is A and S calculated when im in
> Auto-Mode anyway?
>
> Thomas

Use the Force Thomas. :) 

Ok, I'm not really joking. For about the last two years I shot film only
(excepting my compact digital). I remember being frustrated at first not
being sure what exposures would work - my confidence was zero. After a
while I got to where I could practically eye ball the exposure. The
important thing is that in the previous year I had learned very little about
exposure using my F717. Why? Because I didn't have to *think*. I could
just move the camera around and spot meter areas until the histogram and LCD
sorta matched what I thought I wanted to accomplish.

Now I'm shooting with a 20D (about 1 week now) and I'm grateful for the
mental workout I got from shooting film.

The greatest photographers of the 20th century didn't have histograms to
work from. ;) 

--
Mark

Photos, Ideas & Opinions
http://www.marklauter.com
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 10:50:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

"John A. Stovall" <johnastovall@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:9qa2g1lr0884m8uetk937t6jiatirrrbql@4ax.com...
> On 15 Aug 2005 16:27:17 -0700, "wilt" <wiltw@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>On a P&S, the sensor is always in the light path, so realtime image on
>>the LCD is possible. An SLR sticks the reflex mirror in the path of
>>the light, AND the real shutter is closed, so the sensor sees nothing
>>until you fire the shutter. Therefore DSLR does not permit realtime
>>viewing and histogram. You 'pay a price' for seeing exactly what the
>>lens sees, in terms of the reflex mirror and shutter blinding the
>>sensor until time of exposure.
>
> Actually a Pellicle Mirror DSLR could allow such real time viewing..
> Canon made several film cameras with such a system.
>
> http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics...
>
> The RT in the EOS-RT stands for "Real Time".
>
>

The sensors used in DSLRs, even the Canon 20Dn, still do not allow real-time
image viewing so it has nothing to do with the mirror or shutter.

Mark
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 10:52:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

"Thomas Müller" <spam@elfstone.de> wrote in message
news:D dr837$vc1$1@svr12.m-online.net...
> Hi...
> Since its not possible to get a full live-preview, how can i get the
> metering of a picture right? When adjusting apperture and shutter on my
> dimage 7i I can watch the live histogram, and move it wher i want it to
> be.
>
> Is this possible with any DSLR? I'm afraid its not possible, since the
> large
> sensor is behind the mirror, but how is A and S calculated when im in
> Auto-Mode anyway?
>
> Thomas

You can view the histogram immediately after taking the photo. Wow, I
wonder how I did it with a film SLR - no image or histogram review at all!

Mark
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 10:52:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

In article <3ZydnQePMOT6WJzeRVn-vA@comcast.com>, Mark B.
<mbohntrash54@comcast.net> wrote:

> You can view the histogram immediately after taking the photo. Wow, I
> wonder how I did it with a film SLR - no image or histogram review at all!

I never look at them on my 10D. I've done film long enough, I know what
it's going to look like before I press the button.
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 11:36:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

>That's the reason why you actually can't do it. It does not explain why
>there is a semitransparent mirror and why you can't use this as desired.

I have never seen details of the internal design of modern SLRs like
they used to publish in the early days of TTL metering. You used to be
able to read, in the popular press, about how a particular model of
camera accomplished its metering. I suspect, if it is true about a
semitransparent mirror being present, that either:

1) a fully transparent mirror allows the evaluative metering to
function where the metering is not in the pentaprism, but is in the
body of the camera, or
2) a transparent mirror segment(s) permit metering samples to be taken,
but

the segments being read are incomplete samples that cannot be used for
histogram display purposes, in the every pixel is factored into the
histogram.

--Wilt
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 3:15:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On 15 Aug 2005 18:30:33 -0700, wilt wrote:
> >Actually a Pellicle Mirror DSLR could allow such real time viewing..
> >Canon made several film cameras with such a system.
>
> Yes, I know. Canon tried the pellicle on a couple of different
> cameras. The 'split' light path robbed the film of light and also
> robbed the finder of brightness, and the pellicle also suffered the
> issue of dust on the pellicle in the light path to the film.

'tried'? All of the current DSLRs name a semitransparent mirror at
60:40.

From that I read that only 60 % of light are given to the viewfinder,
while 40 % are used what for? Auto-Focus? TTL? Why not live histogram or
live preview?

- Martin
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 3:56:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On 16 Aug 2005 11:15:39 GMT, Martin Trautmann <t-use@gmx.net> wrote:

>On 15 Aug 2005 18:30:33 -0700, wilt wrote:
>> >Actually a Pellicle Mirror DSLR could allow such real time viewing..
>> >Canon made several film cameras with such a system.
>>
>> Yes, I know. Canon tried the pellicle on a couple of different
>> cameras. The 'split' light path robbed the film of light and also
>> robbed the finder of brightness, and the pellicle also suffered the
>> issue of dust on the pellicle in the light path to the film.
>
>'tried'? All of the current DSLRs name a semitransparent mirror at
>60:40.
>
>From that I read that only 60 % of light are given to the viewfinder,
>while 40 % are used what for? Auto-Focus? TTL? Why not live histogram or
>live preview?

You would have to open the shutter over the sensor.


********************************************************

"A nice man is a man of nasty ideas."

_Introductions to History of the Reformation_
Jonathan Swift
1667-1745
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 3:56:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

"wilt" <wiltw@aol.com> writes:

> On a P&S, the sensor is always in the light path, so realtime image on
> the LCD is possible. An SLR sticks the reflex mirror in the path of
> the light, AND the real shutter is closed, so the sensor sees nothing
> until you fire the shutter. Therefore DSLR does not permit realtime
> viewing and histogram. You 'pay a price' for seeing exactly what the
> lens sees, in terms of the reflex mirror and shutter blinding the
> sensor until time of exposure.

That's not really the limitation. The consumer-level cameras all use
very different sensors than the DSLR's. The tiny sensors have a
special low-resolution preview mode to allow rapid update. The much
larger DSLR sensors would consume far more power in such a mode,
depleting battery charge and overheating the sensor. For example, the
late lamented full-frame Kodak DSLR's had a long-exposure mode that
was limited to 30 seconds for this reason.

--
-Stephen H. Westin
Any information or opinions in this message are mine: they do not
represent the position of Cornell University or any of its sponsors.
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 4:20:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:56:46 GMT, John A Stovall wrote:
> On 16 Aug 2005 11:15:39 GMT, Martin Trautmann <t-use@gmx.net> wrote:
>
> >On 15 Aug 2005 18:30:33 -0700, wilt wrote:
> >> >Actually a Pellicle Mirror DSLR could allow such real time viewing..
> >> >Canon made several film cameras with such a system.
> >>
> >> Yes, I know. Canon tried the pellicle on a couple of different
> >> cameras. The 'split' light path robbed the film of light and also
> >> robbed the finder of brightness, and the pellicle also suffered the
> >> issue of dust on the pellicle in the light path to the film.
> >
> >'tried'? All of the current DSLRs name a semitransparent mirror at
> >60:40.
> >
> >From that I read that only 60 % of light are given to the viewfinder,
> >while 40 % are used what for? Auto-Focus? TTL? Why not live histogram or
> >live preview?
>
> You would have to open the shutter over the sensor.

That's the reason why you actually can't do it. It does not explain why
there is a semitransparent mirror and why you can't use this as desired.

Apart from that, I'd be happy enough to accept both mirror lockup or
slighty more image noise whenever I ask for histogram or monitor
explicitly - it it's a noise topic at all.

- Martin
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 4:45:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

DoN. Nichols wrote:

> In article <1124148437.314324.300350@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> wilt <wiltw@aol.com> wrote:
>>On a P&S, the sensor is always in the light path, so realtime image on
>>the LCD is possible. An SLR sticks the reflex mirror in the path of
>>the light, AND the real shutter is closed, so the sensor sees nothing
>>until you fire the shutter. Therefore DSLR does not permit realtime
>>viewing and histogram. You 'pay a price' for seeing exactly what the
>>lens sees, in terms of the reflex mirror and shutter blinding the
>>sensor until time of exposure.
>
> Blinding and *protecting* the sensor. Without that, a chance
> positioning of the camera -- perhaps when you set it down outdoors, can
> focus an image of the sun directly onto the focal plane, and the larger
> lenses in DSLRs can gather and focus more energy onto the focal plane,
> thus increasing the chances of damage.

And it protects the sensor by focusing the sun into the operators eyes.
Might make sense with an D1sII, where a new eye is cheaper than a new
camera ;-)
August 17, 2005 1:35:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

Thomas =?ISO-8859-15?Q?M=FCller?= <spam@elfstone.de> wrote in
news:D dr837$vc1$1@svr12.m-online.net:

> Since its not possible to get a full live-preview, how can i get the
> metering of a picture right?

Is there a reason why you cannot take the photo, check the histogram,
adjust the metering and then take another photo? This can't be done with a
film SLR, but we are not talking about a film SLR, digital does have an
advantage in this respect.



--
Mark Heyes (New Zealand)
See my pics at www.gigatech.co.nz (last updated 16-August-05)
"There are 10 types of people, those that
understand binary and those that don't"
August 17, 2005 2:42:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

"MarkH" <markat@atdot.dot.dot> wrote in message
news:H_sMe.36808$7S7.27788@fe10.news.easynews.com...
> Thomas =?ISO-8859-15?Q?M=FCller?= <spam@elfstone.de> wrote in
> news:D dr837$vc1$1@svr12.m-online.net:
>
>> Since its not possible to get a full live-preview, how can i get the
>> metering of a picture right?
>
> Is there a reason why you cannot take the photo, check the histogram,
> adjust the metering and then take another photo? This can't be done with
> a
> film SLR, but we are not talking about a film SLR, digital does have an
> advantage in this respect.
>
You mean like we used to do Polaroid tests ;) 
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 3:28:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

In article <ddsg4a$2si$1@svr12.m-online.net>,
Thomas Müller <spam@elfstone.de> wrote:
>DoN. Nichols wrote:
>
>> In article <1124148437.314324.300350@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>> wilt <wiltw@aol.com> wrote:
>>>On a P&S, the sensor is always in the light path, so realtime image on
>>>the LCD is possible. An SLR sticks the reflex mirror in the path of
>>>the light, AND the real shutter is closed, so the sensor sees nothing
>>>until you fire the shutter. Therefore DSLR does not permit realtime
>>>viewing and histogram. You 'pay a price' for seeing exactly what the
>>>lens sees, in terms of the reflex mirror and shutter blinding the
>>>sensor until time of exposure.
>>
>> Blinding and *protecting* the sensor. Without that, a chance
>> positioning of the camera -- perhaps when you set it down outdoors, can
>> focus an image of the sun directly onto the focal plane, and the larger
>> lenses in DSLRs can gather and focus more energy onto the focal plane,
>> thus increasing the chances of damage.
>
>And it protects the sensor by focusing the sun into the operators eyes.
>Might make sense with an D1sII, where a new eye is cheaper than a new
>camera ;-)

Unlike the camera, the human eye is connected to an automatic
positioning system which will remove the sun image *very* quickly. :-)

I have yet to see a camera set up to reorient itself if
threatened by the sun burning the sensor.

Not to mention the automatic protective shutters with eyelashes
available to the eye. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
August 17, 2005 11:17:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

"Darrell" <spam@this.eh> wrote in
news:spydnR6BZfxhPp_eRVn-2A@rogers.com:

>
> "MarkH" <markat@atdot.dot.dot> wrote in message
> news:H_sMe.36808$7S7.27788@fe10.news.easynews.com...
>> Thomas =?ISO-8859-15?Q?M=FCller?= <spam@elfstone.de> wrote in
>> news:D dr837$vc1$1@svr12.m-online.net:
>>
>>> Since its not possible to get a full live-preview, how can i get the
>>> metering of a picture right?
>>
>> Is there a reason why you cannot take the photo, check the histogram,
>> adjust the metering and then take another photo? This can't be done
>> with a
>> film SLR, but we are not talking about a film SLR, digital does have
>> an advantage in this respect.
>>
> You mean like we used to do Polaroid tests ;) 

Yeah, similar but better. Better as in faster and more accurate. With a
D-SLR you get your "Polaroid test" with the same camera and same film as
your final shot and you can see the image within a second or two of taking
the shot.


--
Mark Heyes (New Zealand)
See my pics at www.gigatech.co.nz (last updated 16-August-05)
"There are 10 types of people, those that
understand binary and those that don't"
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 3:29:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

DoN. Nichols wrote:

>>And it protects the sensor by focusing the sun into the operators eyes.
>>Might make sense with an D1sII, where a new eye is cheaper than a new
>>camera ;-)
>
> Unlike the camera, the human eye is connected to an automatic
> positioning system which will remove the sun image *very* quickly. :-)

Im not sure, that you will blink fast enough if you focus into the sun with
a 300mm/2.8 with a FullFrame-Camera with bright EVF.

On the other hand, its a rather stupdi thing to do anyway.
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 8:09:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

DoN. Nichols wrote:
> In article <ddsg4a$2si$1@svr12.m-online.net>,
>
>
> Unlike the camera, the human eye is connected to an automatic
> positioning system which will remove the sun image *very* quickly. :-)
>
> I have yet to see a camera set up to reorient itself if
> threatened by the sun burning the sensor.
>
> Not to mention the automatic protective shutters with eyelashes
> available to the eye. :-)

My new test camera has a sensor next to the photosensors that detects
sudden temperature shifts, such as caused by a beam of direct sunlight
through the lens, and puts out a burst of electo magnetic force that'll
snap the lens cap back on if it's within 18" of the special filter mount
that produces the magnetic shock wave. Just keep you cell phone at a
distance! And pens.

--
John McWilliams
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 1:31:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

In message <H_sMe.36808$7S7.27788@fe10.news.easynews.com>,
MarkH <markat@atdot.dot.dot> wrote:

>Thomas =?ISO-8859-15?Q?M=FCller?= <spam@elfstone.de> wrote in
>news:D dr837$vc1$1@svr12.m-online.net:
>
>> Since its not possible to get a full live-preview, how can i get the
>> metering of a picture right?
>
>Is there a reason why you cannot take the photo, check the histogram,
>adjust the metering and then take another photo? This can't be done with a
>film SLR, but we are not talking about a film SLR, digital does have an
>advantage in this respect.

It might be too late?

--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 4:59:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

> Yes, Grasshopper, yes. But tell me, please, how did he know from the
> histogram that his focus was borked?

The vertical bars on the histogram were fuzzy. ;) 

--
Mark

Photos, Ideas & Opinions
http://www.marklauter.com
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 6:03:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

In message <Y3RMe.20376$Yx1.7581@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>,
"Mr. Mark" <e.cartman@southpark.com> wrote:

>> Yes, Grasshopper, yes. But tell me, please, how did he know from the
>> histogram that his focus was borked?
>
>The vertical bars on the histogram were fuzzy. ;) 

Which reminds me; I have to get sturdier stands for my lights. The
current ones wobble and blur the images. :) 
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 4:20:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

John McWilliams wrote:

> Yes, Grasshopper, yes. But tell me, please, how did he know from the
> histogram that his focus was borked?

By asking such questions, you only entangle yourself further in the
foul nexus of dualism. When you meet the Buddha, you must kill the
Buddha.
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 5:59:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

eawckyegcy@yahoo.com wrote:
> John McWilliams wrote:
>
>
>>Yes, Grasshopper, yes. But tell me, please, how did he know from the
>>histogram that his focus was borked?
>
>
> By asking such questions, you only entangle yourself further in the
> foul nexus of dualism. When you meet the Buddha, you must kill the
> Buddha.
>
Forgive my impertinance, O Buddha!

--
jpmcw
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 5:00:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

"Mark B." <mbohntrash54@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:F-qdncqbjK-FWJzeRVn-rg@comcast.com...
>
> "John A. Stovall" <johnastovall@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:9qa2g1lr0884m8uetk937t6jiatirrrbql@4ax.com...
>> On 15 Aug 2005 16:27:17 -0700, "wilt" <wiltw@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On a P&S, the sensor is always in the light path, so realtime image on
>>>the LCD is possible. An SLR sticks the reflex mirror in the path of
>>>the light, AND the real shutter is closed, so the sensor sees nothing
>>>until you fire the shutter. Therefore DSLR does not permit realtime
>>>viewing and histogram. You 'pay a price' for seeing exactly what the
>>>lens sees, in terms of the reflex mirror and shutter blinding the
>>>sensor until time of exposure.
>>
>> Actually a Pellicle Mirror DSLR could allow such real time viewing..
>> Canon made several film cameras with such a system.
>>
>> http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics...
>>
>> The RT in the EOS-RT stands for "Real Time".
>>
>>
>
> The sensors used in DSLRs, even the Canon 20Dn, still do not allow
> real-time image viewing so it has nothing to do with the mirror or
> shutter.
>
> Mark
>

It would be nice to have an option for the last shot's hostogram pop up as
an overlay in the viewfinder so you did not have to take the camera away
from they eye to check.
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 5:00:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

In article <4305c9c6$0$24647$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>, Lester Wareham
<nospam@please.co.uk> wrote:

> It would be nice to have an option for the last shot's hostogram pop up as
> an overlay in the viewfinder so you did not have to take the camera away
> from they eye to check.

If you learn how to create images properly, you don't need no steenking
histogram.
August 19, 2005 5:00:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

"Lester Wareham" <nospam@please.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4305c9c6$0$24647$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk...
>
>
> It would be nice to have an option for the last shot's hostogram pop up as
> an overlay in the viewfinder so you did not have to take the camera away
> from they eye to check.
>
And how would they do that function? I don't see how a SLR viewfinder would
do an overlay, are you suggesting they replace the reflex housing with a
EVF?
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 8:34:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

> > It would be nice to have an option for the last shot's hostogram pop up
as
> > an overlay in the viewfinder so you did not have to take the camera away
> > from they eye to check.
> >
> And how would they do that function? I don't see how a SLR viewfinder
would
> do an overlay, are you suggesting they replace the reflex housing with a
> EVF?

The information could be projected on the focusing screen like a HUD. But
don't take this as an endorsement for the idea. Real men don't need
histograms. ;) 

Please be careful even saying EVF and SLR viewfinder in the same sentence -
I'm afraid someone at the big 2 companies might read that and think it's a
/good/ idea and then photography will be ruined forever. :o 

--
Mark

Photos, Ideas & Opinions
http://www.marklauter.com
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 11:38:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

In message <190820050542525648%rag@nospam.techline.com>,
Randall Ainsworth <rag@nospam.techline.com> wrote:

>In article <4305c9c6$0$24647$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>, Lester Wareham
><nospam@please.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> It would be nice to have an option for the last shot's hostogram pop up as
>> an overlay in the viewfinder so you did not have to take the camera away
>> from they eye to check.
>
>If you learn how to create images properly, you don't need no steenking
>histogram.

I wonder how many people who say what you just said really mean "I
routinely under-expose to avoid clipping, and get highly quantized
shadows as a result". Only if you nail the exposure with the highlights
just short of clipping the RAW data every time do you have bragging
rights over the people who want more useful histograms, IMO.
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 1:26:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

<JPS@no.komm> wrote:

>> If you learn how to create images properly, you don't need no steenking
>> histogram.
>
> I wonder how many people who say what you just said really mean "I
> routinely under-expose to avoid clipping, and get highly quantized
> shadows as a result". Only if you nail the exposure with the highlights
> just short of clipping the RAW data every time do you have bragging
> rights over the people who want more useful histograms, IMO.

It's just misplaced bravado. Sure, with no image review and histogram I
can get just as good an exposure as I did with film, back in the day.
With those things, I can get *better*.

--
Jeremy | jeremy@exit109.com
Anonymous
August 21, 2005 10:08:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

"Jeremy Nixon" <jeremy@exit109.com> wrote in message

> It's just misplaced bravado. Sure, with no image review and histogram I
> can get just as good an exposure as I did with film, back in the day.
> With those things, I can get *better*.

There is no "better" exposure. There is only an exposure that interprets
the scene in such a way as to make the statement the artist wishes to make.
;) 

--
Mark

Photos, Ideas & Opinions
http://www.marklauter.com
Anonymous
August 21, 2005 11:32:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

In message <Tq3Oe.31306$Oy2.13203@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>,
"Beach Bum" <e.cartman@southpark.com> wrote:

>"Jeremy Nixon" <jeremy@exit109.com> wrote in message
>
>> It's just misplaced bravado. Sure, with no image review and histogram I
>> can get just as good an exposure as I did with film, back in the day.
>> With those things, I can get *better*.
>
>There is no "better" exposure. There is only an exposure that interprets
>the scene in such a way as to make the statement the artist wishes to make.
>;)

I seriously doubt that the artist has any idea exactly how their image
is going to posterize; you get maximum control when you expose digital
as high as possible without clipping desired highlights, and then "ruin"
it artistically in post-processing.

As far as getting better saturation by under-exposing is concerned, that
is total nonsense with digital, if you have access to the RAW data.
Under-exposure only gets you the random color noise of posterization.
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 11:22:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

"Randall Ainsworth" <rag@nospam.techline.com> wrote in message
news:190820050542525648%rag@nospam.techline.com...
> In article <4305c9c6$0$24647$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>, Lester Wareham
> <nospam@please.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> It would be nice to have an option for the last shot's hostogram pop up
>> as
>> an overlay in the viewfinder so you did not have to take the camera away
>> from they eye to check.
>
> If you learn how to create images properly, you don't need no steenking
> histogram.

OK well you go back to film then and mutter to youreself about damm
progress....
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 11:27:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

"Darrell" <spam@this.eh> wrote in message
news:veOdnW461M5-R5jeRVn-gg@rogers.com...
>
> "Lester Wareham" <nospam@please.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:4305c9c6$0$24647$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk...
>>
>>
>> It would be nice to have an option for the last shot's hostogram pop up
>> as an overlay in the viewfinder so you did not have to take the camera
>> away from they eye to check.
>>
> And how would they do that function? I don't see how a SLR viewfinder
> would do an overlay, are you suggesting they replace the reflex housing
> with a EVF?
>

Well I did say nice, but not as a EVF.

I can't say I have thought of it otherwise I would be talking to patent
agent rather than the PD.

I guess I was thinking of something like head-up display technology. I guess
the same as they dp with the AF spots. Little LED display or backlit LCD
display projecting into the view.
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 10:35:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

In article <430cbaf1$0$18200$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>, Lester Wareham
<nospam@please.co.uk> wrote:

> > If you learn how to create images properly, you don't need no steenking
> > histogram.
>
> OK well you go back to film then and mutter to youreself about damm
> progress....

I don't see myself going back to film, but as one who has done
photography for almost 40 years with no histogram, I see no reason for
one now. If one learns the principles of photography, there is no need
for histograms.
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 1:56:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.slr-systems (More info?)

"Randall Ainsworth" <rag@nospam.techline.com> wrote in message
news:250820051835452587%rag@nospam.techline.com...
> In article <430cbaf1$0$18200$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>, Lester Wareham
> <nospam@please.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> > If you learn how to create images properly, you don't need no steenking
>> > histogram.
>>
>> OK well you go back to film then and mutter to youreself about damm
>> progress....
>
> I don't see myself going back to film, but as one who has done
> photography for almost 40 years with no histogram, I see no reason for
> one now. If one learns the principles of photography, there is no need
> for histograms.

Yep, I worked with film and no histogram for 25 years. I tended to prefer a
manual camera with a tight metering, close to what would be called spot
today. I sometimes used seperate incident light or 1 degree spot meters if I
was being fussy. I could use those methods now but the histogram is better.

I do see the advantage of histograms - but you can use it or not.

What I am saying is an overlay histogram would improve the usability when
you do want to use them. A CF could be defined to turn the feature off if
one found it distracting.

I use the histogram on every shot if there is time, it allows confirmation
of metering. The only problem is operating fast you can't take your eye away
to use this advantage. The overlay would solve that.
!