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Car guys, help me on Tires!

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OK, ok, I have a VAN, I need the space for carrying equipment. It's a nice, solid Astro.

When I got the thing it had 215/75R-15 tires on 15x5.5" wheels. It was an evil handling SOB that would bounce side to side recovering from turns, slide on nearly any surface, and felt like it was tipping over all the time. BUT WAIT!

I bought some FACTORY ORIGINAL 1996 Impala SS wheels/tires, 17x8.5 with <A HREF="http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=BFGoodrich&tireModel=g-Force+T/A+KDWS&vehicleSearch=false&partnum=55WR7GFTAKDWS&fromCompare1=yes" target="_new">255/50ZR-17 BF Goodrich g-Force T/A tires</A> Those wore like iron, and would violently SNAP me out of turns (probably due to side load on the leaf springs). Great cornering tires, but the front would get hooked on pavement grooves and steer the van for me. The stiff sidewall design would just about break your teeth going over potholes as well.

So I got some 245/50HR-17 BF Goodrich Comp T/A HR4's for the front. That cured my stearing problem and softened the front end up a bit. But they are a bit small.

Now, my original tires were 27.7" diameter, my g-Forces were 27.1" diameter, so that my final drive ratio had a slight drop, and my van would no longer downshift going up small hills on the freeway. But as I continued to drive it, the thing loosened up, so that I no longer need that small gear reduction.

The closest to original diameter for my rim size comes on 255/55R-17's. I'm considering the <A HREF="http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Dunlop&tireModel=Sport+Rover+GTX2&vehicleSearch=false&partnum=555HR7ROVGTX2&fromCompare1=yes" target="_new">Dunlop Sport Rover GTX</A> as a replacement on the rear. I know a taller tire will make the van lean more in corners, but I'm not so certain it will be a SEVERE issue. Right now I can take right-hand corners at 30MPH, but can't keep anything locked down in my van if I corner faster than 20MPH. So I think I have a little room to sacrifice cornering. And the softer tire would be less likely to toss a computer from the rear of the van into my lap when I go over rough roads!

You can see I've thought this out quite a bit, is there anything else you think I should consider? This is a major purchase in Crashman bux.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

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I got to ask, how's your tie rod ends, struts, & shocks?

I've done a lot of chassis design. Setting the ride height, bounce, jounce, rebound, & turning angles is one of the first things we do on a new platform & it becomes a holy grail once the criteria is developed. Nothing else comes until that criteria is developed & everything had better clear it after. Changing any of the geometry has profound effects. Tires are an integral part of the design, but the weakest link really. Tolerances & sizes with over inflated tires & under inflated tires is taken into account with a Solid Zone that takes all I've mentioned into account. It's a big solid blob that looks like a Vee from plan view. A small disc offset in the wheels causes spindles to wear out, along with tie rod ends to get chewed up. Changes in height, as you've done can cause shocks to bottom in there travel or hold back the bounce to the length of the rod of the shock / strut, causing it to actually be held back by the rod in the piston of the shock / strut. Not long enough travel, or bottoming out all the time, rod to short for the travel.

Having said all of that, the best place I've found to match up tires to geometry is <A HREF="http://www.goodyeartires.com/" target="_new"> Good Year.</A> Good Year worked with us a lot on envelopes for replacement tires. They have a stock tire locator on there web page, but it's not going to give you the best idea of what can do on your Astro. If you call them up though & have them look up your van, they can tell you the max. tire size your van can take with it's geometry. Knowing that, then you can talk tire compounds & side wall stiffness with them as to ride, mileage, & driving styles of the different compounds. Exactly what size that will end up being, I can't say. Any way, that's the way I go about changing from stock tires.

It used to be with Good Year as well (I'm not totally sure if it's still in affect or not) you could have a set of tires put on & if your not satisfied with them for any reason in the first 100 miles, you can bring them right back & swap them out. That would be a way you try out your choice without getting stuck with tires that aren't up to your driving style. BFG may have to same warranty as well.

Side note! My Dad retired from Good Year. We get coupons for 4 sets of Good Year's every year because they want us on Good Year's. Usually it's 30 to 40% off the sale prices & you get free valve cores, rotation & spin balance, for the life of the tire. Last year Good Year's stocks were down, so they only gave us $20 a tire off. This year I think they did better, so the employee discount might be better. I'd have to check with my Mom & she's in FL. Might be able to work something out there for you, if your interested. PM me if you are interested, after all, your not far from me.

My 4X4 High Rider is real easy. It's got 32 X 10.5's on it. They only make 2 tires for that vehicle & that's it. I won't bother telling you how much those puppies cost, but they ain't cheap. Had to put a new set on last fall. I got 72000 on the first set having them rotated every 6000 miles. They don't come with a mileage warranty, they have a tread life warranty because they're off road tires.

Hope that gives you some help & some ideas.

Dazzle them with Brilliance, or Baffle them with BS! :wink:

Reply to RCPilot

Well then, I have a LOT of good news for you! First off, the Astro had the same offset as the Caprice, and Impala SS wheels were designed for...the Caprice, so offset is perfect! I verified that by checking the clearence, because that's the easiest thing I could do. I looked over the specs and picked performance settings at my last alignment, 1/2 degree negative camber and 1/16" tie in, for example. The handling has been supurb.

I didn't lower the van at all. With the 255/50's it only sat .3" lower than with the original tires. The 245/50's dropped the front a bit more but not enough to consider a re-alignment (I understand trigonemetry).

Anyway, the tire companies give you max width based on clearence more than anything else. I already know 255 is the max width, even though they used to say 245. Today they say 235, they must have found a few vans with clearence problems.

My tires only cost $147 each. It's a lot of money to me, but not to a lot of other people.

Basically I have 8.5" wid rims. That limits my tire size to between 245 (barely wide enough for the rim) and 255 (barely narrow enough to fit the wheel wells). 245/55 is actually a perfect match for the original diameter, but the tires offered in that size suck: Cheap soft compound BFG's designed for burnouts, and Perellis at $180 each. The next closest match is the 255/55, and that size is actually available in reasonabley priced, high mileage compound tires.

The things that really concern me probably shouldn't.
1.) My rear tires are stiff sidewall and jar you fairly harshly! Looking for something a bit softer.
2.) Those tires are 400AA rated and wear like iron. Yet they get killer grip as well. I've read many reports from many drivers, all are impressed with the killer grip on these tires, even though they do wear well. Don't want to sacrifice much in the way of wear-resistance.
3.) The Dunlops I was considering are 420AB, even harder compound tires. I've heard some people complain they squeel too easy. I believe those people are probably pushing their tires harder than I plan to, but still worry about traction. I probably shouldn't worry, since the things have such a wide tread.
4.) Worried about the balance between good handling and smooth ride, don't want to give up TOO much handling, but would like more comfort.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

Reply to Crashman

I forgot to answer your original question:
The tie rod ends are good
The shocks work like new

The springs are too stiff, the shocks are too soft, and that's because it's a 1/2 ton truck disguised as a family wagon, by design.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

Reply to Crashman

Well, your beyond my knowledge. You need a tire engineer to answer those questions for you. I've got a friend that is still working down at the Tech Center & drives back & forth. He can see the tire engineers down there, if there still there. I'll cut & past your posts & email them down to him & see what he can find out for you.

I got to :lol: though, an Astro wasn't designed for performance. Your taking that thing to the limit I would think! Beyond your average grocery getter! :smile:

Dazzle them with Brilliance, or Baffle them with BS! :wink:

Reply to RCPilot

Yes, with the stiff sidewall tires I could take a right hand corner at 30MPH and have it snap my neck back on the exit. But that was just when I tested out the tires, I normally corner right at 15-20MPH, left at 20-30MPH.

So I CAN afford a little more lean for the sake of comfort. The stiff springs do a great job of contolling lean, but without the factory soft tires, really harden up the ride.

It corners like a cop car, but rides hard like a commercial truck.

These vans are tall, but wide for their height. Especially with the wide low profile tires, which add around 2" to the track width (1 inch per side).

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

Reply to Crashman

I sent the post down, we'll see what he comes back with. I'll post what he comes back with.

Yea, body roll is a concern on a van. Doesn't surprise me a bit that it's over sprung.

We slammed my oldest son's S10 Step Side to the ground. Lowered it 4 inches. Changed everything, including springs, shocks, spindles & the whole 9 yards. Rubber Band looking tires I call them. Well he got stuck on a speed bump in the hospital parking ramp. Front end went over the speed bump, but he couldn't back off it or pull ahead! Shut down the whole parking ramp down until security got a wrecker to pull him over the bump!! I laughed until I almost cried on the one!! They didn't charge him anything though. They had to get the ramp back open! Yea, he can't go many places with it even around town. Now he's talking hydraulics to over come that little glitch! :lol:

Dazzle them with Brilliance, or Baffle them with BS! :wink:

Reply to RCPilot

Tell your son to forget hydraulics and go air. Seriously, with air he can have a smooth ride AND controll ride height, it's the ONLY way to go for people who actually DRIVE their vehicles and want them super low.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

Reply to Crashman

He may be going air, I'm not sure. What I am sure of is when he gets the parts, good ole Dad & his air tools will be put to work on it. I love to wrench tough, so it's all good.

Dazzle them with Brilliance, or Baffle them with BS! :wink:

Reply to RCPilot

Well Crash here's what I got back from him. BTW he's in Chassis Design. Looks like the Pep Boys have some good info there to me, but I didn't go through it that well. He'll probably think on it some more & get back with me later. I'll post again if he does.

Quote :

Well Steve,
There was a lot said there, so here's my quick take on it.
Having owned a couple of the full-size Chevy vans, I think I have van
experience...
Install some KYB gas-adjust shocks, swap out the stab bar end-links &
bushings for polyurethane sets.
Also he could try a less expensive brand of tires.
<A HREF="http://www.kyb.com/" target="_new">http://www.kyb.com/</A>
<A HREF="http://www.energysuspension.com/" target="_new">http://www.energysuspension.com/</A>
<A HREF="http://www.kumhousa.com/" target="_new">http://www.kumhousa.com/</A>

<A HREF="http://www.pepboys.com/learning_center/car_care/articles/tire_plus_sizing.html" target="_new">http://www.pepboys.com/learning_center/car_care/articles/tire_plus_sizing.html</A>
He should stay within the guidelines of the performance upgrades for
swapping tire/wheel setups.
The old Plus-0, Plus-1, Plus-2, Plus-3, etc.
stock tire/wheel combo Plus-0 Plus-1
Plus-2
215/75R-15 tires & 15x5.5 ? ?
?
255/70ZR-17tires,
17x8.5
(I think this is the spot, Plus-1)

Definitely he should check ball joints, tie rod ends, etc., etc
My best choice though are the KYB shocks, they gave me the best
performance, ride & handling of any gas shock ever!!!
That's all I've got for now; a lot of time could be spent studying,
researching & talking about this.
Roger

Dazzle them with Brilliance, or Baffle them with BS! :wink:

Reply to RCPilot

Crash , i would say the NV 3 250 , as P4 and a lot of the guys say its the best cause the via is junk ----ops sorry wrong thread heh heh heh .

The man of steel said that

Reply to ironmike

Plus 2 is supposed to be 235/55-17. That's a scam, those tire are too short. The correct diameter would be 245/55-17, but that's an uncommon size, so it's not a good choice unless you really want the poor choices available in that size.

I was REALLY considering Kumos, except they only have 2/3 the wear index and cost nearly 2/3 the price of the Dunlops. That would be nearly break even for either tire, except the Kumos have terrible snow traction.

Before we get into the "poor" winter traction characteristics of wide low profile all-season radials, I can tell you this, the BFG g-Force have EXCELLENT grip on everything but very loose snow. They grip GREAT on ice and hardpack, which covers most of our winter driving. I'm just tired of getting beat up by them.

Yes, KYB gas shocks would be GREAT. Right now I have a small rebound problem, I bounce off raised ridges in the road. But to completely cure that, I'd need not only stiffer shocks, but softer springs! The springs simply overpower the shocks. And if I was doing that, I'd go with a heavier sway bar in the front and add one to the back. And maybe a panhard bar as well, or better yet a Watts Linkage, hehe.

But that gets away from what I actually DO with the van. For me it's a cross between a truck and a wagon. I think that was the purpose of the design! And I just need enough handling to keep up with the moderately agressive driving style I'm used to.

When I got the van, it used to bounce side to side on the stock tires. Wore me out dring it 400 miles home. Don't want to go back to that, I have to find balance

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

Reply to Crashman

Well Man, I don't know what to tell you. Your experimenting somewhat & it doesn't surprise me, knowing you. I've had a set of tires straighten out a vehicle before & I've had them hurt them as well. Dirt track racing taught me a lot about hook up & body roll. Stiffening up the RF spring, working the suspension, & such. Grooving in the tires & be the speed champ that practice or whatever. Then come feature time, car the same set up & tires, & it won't make the turn !

I guess it's like CPU's in the end! What you save on the apples, you loose on the grapes, or vice versa!

Dazzle them with Brilliance, or Baffle them with BS! :wink:

Reply to RCPilot

Yes, if I were racing though, the tires I already have would be PERFECT, 3/32 inch tread, very strong grip, very little lean, heh.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

Reply to Crashman

Hey RC, if he doesn't want / need the tire coupon, let me know!! :cool: I will need new tires for my Jeep before winter, and I probably won't fall into a deal like I did last time... 32" BFG Mud Terrain Tires, used, but for less than 1000 miles I am sure (still had a few of the rubbler nipple things on them!) for $150 FOR THE SET!!! Those are normally $125+ each!! Other than that, I am just looking for a 30" or 31" all terrain tire... If no one else is gonna use them, let me know!

Thanks man!!

GO CUBS GO!
GO CUBS GO!

I'd rather be at Wrigley Field!

Reply to JustPlainJef

I'll keep you in mind. Some years we don't have enough & other years we do. We try to get them used before they expire though. We'll see what's happening this fall.

Dazzle them with Brilliance, or Baffle them with BS! :wink:

Reply to RCPilot

:cool:

GO CUBS GO!
GO CUBS GO!

I'd rather be at Wrigley Field!

Reply to JustPlainJef

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Reply to scamtrOn

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Reply to scamtrOn

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War Eagle
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Reply to Auburn9698

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Reply to scamtrOn

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Reply to scamtrOn

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<A HREF="http://www.cameronwilliamson.com" target="_new">-={Apostalic Alcoholic.}=-</A>

Reply to mrface

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Reply to scamtrOn

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<A HREF="http://www.cameronwilliamson.com" target="_new">-={Apostalic Alcoholic.}=-</A>

Reply to mrface

Yes, I don't mean to sound like an ungrateful bitch, but I won't be buying a set. Hopefully I'll be buying 1. That's because I can get WELFARE to buy 1 replacement tire for my work vehicle. 1+1=2, my front tires are fine, so it looks like I'll just be replacing the backs.

If I go 255/55-17 on back with my 245/50-17's on the front, I'll also get that "rakish look" so many hot rodders are after.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

Reply to Crashman

lmao

<pre>crash is an ungrateful bitch
</pre><pre> i had to do it </pre><A HREF="http://www.cameronwilliamson.com" target="_new">-={Apostalic Alcoholic.}=-</A>

Reply to mrface

[-peep-] slide

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Reply to scamtrOn

I got that you were going for 2 tires in your first post, I think.

Dazzle them with Brilliance, or Baffle them with BS! :wink:

Reply to RCPilot

Update, I think I'll get the Continental ContiExtremeContact 255/50-17 tires. I wanted slightly larger diameter tires, but there aren't any Dunlop dealers in my area, and the only other tires I can find in 255/55-17 are either expensive, or high wear.

So when I went back to considering 255/50's, I looked long and hard, the Continentals have a tread wear index of 400 which gives me around 50k miles for rear tires on my van (as long as I resist the urge to burnout!). I think the reason I get more life out of my tires is that I don't change them until they REALLY ARE bald. The reports I've read show the Continentals having similar grip and wear characteristics to my glorious BFG g-Force tires, but without the rock hard sidewalls to beat me up, nor the tramlining problem.

They'll still be 0.6" too small in diameter, but like I said, I can't get good, reasonably priced tires in the larger diameter in my area.

Oh, looked a lot at Kumos, with a 260 tread wear index (!) and very little snow grip I had to look elsewhere.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

Reply to Crashman

I'm glad that you solved your tire problem.

Doesn't sound like a lot of tread wear to me, but I get great tread wear. I have my tires rotated & spun balanced every 6000 & the least I've gotten with Good Year's is 73,000. That was on my 4x4 with 32 x 10.5's. My Delta has 112,000 on that set. Course the car itself has 227,000 on it. It's been a lot of years since I've only gotten 50,000 on a set of tires.

Dazzle them with Brilliance, or Baffle them with BS! :wink:

Reply to RCPilot

Well, 400 treadware is good for a street tire, but I've seen long treadlife economy tires, and truck tires, with even more. And I do corner kind of hard.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

Reply to Crashman

Yea, you drive that Astro to the limit I'd say. Nothing wrong with that either. It makes Good Year mad that I don't seem to wear out the tires. I usually bust a bead in the tire between 80,000 & 100,000. They have always had to give me a least 1/3 to 1/2 cost back to be applied on the new set I'm putting on. I've been doing that since 71 when I started with them & got the discount. (Motor Wheel was a subsidiary of Good Year.) It's been that long since I've even looked at another tire. I'm spoiled though & keep taking advantage of them.

Dazzle them with Brilliance, or Baffle them with BS! :wink:

Reply to RCPilot

Can I have your old tires??? You could get a new set every year for your truck, and I will take the old ones!!

Just throw them in the back and drive them down here...

I'll buy the beer...

<pre>wait, bad idea with RD</pre>
I'll buy a case of beer!

GO CUBS GO!
GO CUBS GO!

I'd rather be at Wrigley Field!

Reply to JustPlainJef

Quote :

I'll buy a case of beer!

:lol:

Dazzle them with Brilliance, or Baffle them with BS! :wink:

Reply to RCPilot

Quote :

:lol:

:lol:

GO CUBS GO!
GO CUBS GO!

I'd rather be at Wrigley Field!

Reply to JustPlainJef

A case of beer would be a drop in the bucket! :wink:

Dazzle them with Brilliance, or Baffle them with BS! :wink:

Reply to RCPilot

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