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CLD-D704 vs Sony, and ghosting...

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Anonymous
April 23, 2005 10:17:06 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

Hi all,

I just bought a Pioneer CLD-D704 LD player from Kurtis. As another data
point for others, it's certainly a significant improvement over the Sony
MDP-850D I had previously; noise is considerably reduced, so medium
tones no longer look fuzzy.

I'm playing this through a Panasonic AE-700 projector, using composite,
or a basic Sony 29" CRT.

Now that the noise is down, I notice that there seems to be some minor
ghosting around sharp edges. I've been looking mainly at the Star Wars
NTSC "faces" LDs, e.g. in the titles. There is usually a single ghost
offset by 5-10 pixels. It appears on both CRT and projector.

Is this ghosting typical of Laserdisc? It's really quite minor but
noticeable on a high quality screen. It bothers me a little and I never
heard of this before.

I guess it could be a scaling/comb filter artefact?

I have bought a good quality, 1-metre composite cable from the player to
the projector, since my first suspicion was bad termination. But that
didn't make much if any difference.

I tried the same disc in my Sony MDP850D, and the behaviour is different
- more, smaller ghosts, but there is so much more noise with the Sony is
hard to judge.


The D705 also has a S-Video output, I tried that, same result.


--
aaronl at consultant dot com
For every expert, there is an equal and
opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke

More about : cld d704 sony ghosting

Anonymous
April 23, 2005 10:17:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

I have not seen a unit yet that doesn't produce the ghosting. I've seen
some that were bad enough that you could see two ghosts at equal spacing.
Part of what you are experiencing is as you move to the higher end units
that has the sharper picture you also start to see artifact and flaws that
are not a vivid with the softer picture. Since the ghosting is not
everywhere I've just trained my brain to ignore it. I've never seen a
format yet that didn't have a problem somewhere.

Kurtis


"Aaron Lawrence" <aaronlNOT@HEREconsultant.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1cd4af83637e6849989dd6@news.xtra.co.nz...
> Hi all,
>
> I just bought a Pioneer CLD-D704 LD player from Kurtis. As another data
> point for others, it's certainly a significant improvement over the Sony
> MDP-850D I had previously; noise is considerably reduced, so medium
> tones no longer look fuzzy.
>
> I'm playing this through a Panasonic AE-700 projector, using composite,
> or a basic Sony 29" CRT.
>
> Now that the noise is down, I notice that there seems to be some minor
> ghosting around sharp edges. I've been looking mainly at the Star Wars
> NTSC "faces" LDs, e.g. in the titles. There is usually a single ghost
> offset by 5-10 pixels. It appears on both CRT and projector.
>
> Is this ghosting typical of Laserdisc? It's really quite minor but
> noticeable on a high quality screen. It bothers me a little and I never
> heard of this before.
>
> I guess it could be a scaling/comb filter artefact?
>
> I have bought a good quality, 1-metre composite cable from the player to
> the projector, since my first suspicion was bad termination. But that
> didn't make much if any difference.
>
> I tried the same disc in my Sony MDP850D, and the behaviour is different
> - more, smaller ghosts, but there is so much more noise with the Sony is
> hard to judge.
>
>
> The D705 also has a S-Video output, I tried that, same result.
>
>
> --
> aaronl at consultant dot com
> For every expert, there is an equal and
> opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke
Anonymous
April 24, 2005 6:15:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

Hi Kurtis,

I wasn't blaming you or anything, that's why I didn't send you a mail ;) 

When you say "a unit" do you mean of the 704, or just the better LD
players in general?

Any technical speculation as to where it's coming from? (Not with a view
to fixing it, just curious as I have an electronics bent).

HD/Blu-ray will be perfect right? Complete with 20 minute reprimands
about piracy that must be watched before the movie will play... :) 

Thanks for the reply.

Aaron

Suddenly, Kurtis Bahr sprang forth and uttered these pithy words:
> I have not seen a unit yet that doesn't produce the ghosting. I've seen
> some that were bad enough that you could see two ghosts at equal spacing.
> Part of what you are experiencing is as you move to the higher end units
> that has the sharper picture you also start to see artifact and flaws that
> are not a vivid with the softer picture. Since the ghosting is not
> everywhere I've just trained my brain to ignore it. I've never seen a
> format yet that didn't have a problem somewhere.
>
> Kurtis
>
>
> "Aaron Lawrence" <aaronlNOT@HEREconsultant.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1cd4af83637e6849989dd6@news.xtra.co.nz...
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I just bought a Pioneer CLD-D704 LD player from Kurtis. As another data
> > point for others, it's certainly a significant improvement over the Sony
> > MDP-850D I had previously; noise is considerably reduced, so medium
> > tones no longer look fuzzy.
> >
> > I'm playing this through a Panasonic AE-700 projector, using composite,
> > or a basic Sony 29" CRT.
> >
> > Now that the noise is down, I notice that there seems to be some minor
> > ghosting around sharp edges. I've been looking mainly at the Star Wars
> > NTSC "faces" LDs, e.g. in the titles. There is usually a single ghost
> > offset by 5-10 pixels. It appears on both CRT and projector.
> >
> > Is this ghosting typical of Laserdisc? It's really quite minor but
> > noticeable on a high quality screen. It bothers me a little and I never
> > heard of this before.
> >
> > I guess it could be a scaling/comb filter artefact?
> >
> > I have bought a good quality, 1-metre composite cable from the player to
> > the projector, since my first suspicion was bad termination. But that
> > didn't make much if any difference.
> >
> > I tried the same disc in my Sony MDP850D, and the behaviour is different
> > - more, smaller ghosts, but there is so much more noise with the Sony is
> > hard to judge.
> >
> >
> > The D705 also has a S-Video output, I tried that, same result.
> >
> >
> > --
> > aaronl at consultant dot com
> > For every expert, there is an equal and
> > opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke
>
>
>

--
aaronl at consultant dot com
For every expert, there is an equal and
opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke
Related resources
Anonymous
April 24, 2005 6:15:36 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

I understand this was not directed at me. Kevin Hawerchuk went through a
few players before being happy, I believe the industrial LD-V4400 was the
worst for the ghosting. I've never tried to find this mainly as in the age
of VLSI it's usually inside the chip, no more discrete parts to play with.
In my previous posting my comment referred to all Pioneer models, cannot
remember exactly what Panasonics look like, would have to connect one to
verify. Even my HLD-X9 has this ghost but it doesn't have any smearing.

Kurtis

"Aaron Lawrence" <aaronlNOT@HEREconsultant.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1cd511a5246ec0a9989dd9@news.xtra.co.nz...
> Hi Kurtis,
>
> I wasn't blaming you or anything, that's why I didn't send you a mail ;) 
>
> When you say "a unit" do you mean of the 704, or just the better LD
> players in general?
>
> Any technical speculation as to where it's coming from? (Not with a view
> to fixing it, just curious as I have an electronics bent).
>
> HD/Blu-ray will be perfect right? Complete with 20 minute reprimands
> about piracy that must be watched before the movie will play... :) 
>
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> Aaron
>
> Suddenly, Kurtis Bahr sprang forth and uttered these pithy words:
>> I have not seen a unit yet that doesn't produce the ghosting. I've seen
>> some that were bad enough that you could see two ghosts at equal spacing.
>> Part of what you are experiencing is as you move to the higher end units
>> that has the sharper picture you also start to see artifact and flaws
>> that
>> are not a vivid with the softer picture. Since the ghosting is not
>> everywhere I've just trained my brain to ignore it. I've never seen a
>> format yet that didn't have a problem somewhere.
>>
>> Kurtis
>>
>>
>> "Aaron Lawrence" <aaronlNOT@HEREconsultant.com> wrote in message
>> news:MPG.1cd4af83637e6849989dd6@news.xtra.co.nz...
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > I just bought a Pioneer CLD-D704 LD player from Kurtis. As another data
>> > point for others, it's certainly a significant improvement over the
>> > Sony
>> > MDP-850D I had previously; noise is considerably reduced, so medium
>> > tones no longer look fuzzy.
>> >
>> > I'm playing this through a Panasonic AE-700 projector, using composite,
>> > or a basic Sony 29" CRT.
>> >
>> > Now that the noise is down, I notice that there seems to be some minor
>> > ghosting around sharp edges. I've been looking mainly at the Star Wars
>> > NTSC "faces" LDs, e.g. in the titles. There is usually a single ghost
>> > offset by 5-10 pixels. It appears on both CRT and projector.
>> >
>> > Is this ghosting typical of Laserdisc? It's really quite minor but
>> > noticeable on a high quality screen. It bothers me a little and I never
>> > heard of this before.
>> >
>> > I guess it could be a scaling/comb filter artefact?
>> >
>> > I have bought a good quality, 1-metre composite cable from the player
>> > to
>> > the projector, since my first suspicion was bad termination. But that
>> > didn't make much if any difference.
>> >
>> > I tried the same disc in my Sony MDP850D, and the behaviour is
>> > different
>> > - more, smaller ghosts, but there is so much more noise with the Sony
>> > is
>> > hard to judge.
>> >
>> >
>> > The D705 also has a S-Video output, I tried that, same result.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > aaronl at consultant dot com
>> > For every expert, there is an equal and
>> > opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> aaronl at consultant dot com
> For every expert, there is an equal and
> opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke
Anonymous
April 24, 2005 6:15:37 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

I think what is being discussed is actually, "ringing" or "false
outlines."
Indeed all players have this issue. It's related to the sharpness of
the player. Players with soft pictures do dull the false outlines making
them harder to see, especially from a distance.
The LD-V4400 Kurtis spoke of had full blown ghosting. Images would
"ghost" 50% past the edge of the image. It was unbelievable.
Other players have CLV smear issues. It depends on the monitor being
used though.
The D704 smears like crazy on CLV discs when viewed on many analog tv
sets. However, this unit hooked up to my digital widescreen Philips CRT
tv set does not smear.
I'm sure it's a CLV issue. I have some old black and white Abbott and
Costello laserdiscs. Side one is CLV, side two is CAV.
On side one, the brim of hats smear right across the picture tube, on
my analog Proscan tv set. On side two, which is CAV, the brims are
intact with no smearing. Coincidence? I don't think so.
But, even my HLD X9 will have "false outlines" on edges. The sharper
the picture, the more these "ringing" lines can be seen.
This concept is explored in Video Essentials. The chapter that talks
about sharpness discusses "false outlines" as being an artifact of
excessive sharpness.
Kevin
Anonymous
April 25, 2005 4:31:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

Suddenly, Kevin Hawerchuk sprang forth and uttered these pithy words:
> I think what is being discussed is actually, "ringing" or "false
> outlines."

OK, but ringing in what...

> On side one, the brim of hats smear right across the picture tube, on
> my analog Proscan tv set. On side two, which is CAV, the brims are
> intact with no smearing. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Hm, so interesting to try it with a CAV disc e.g. the last side of SW
trilogy I think...
I did notice occasional smearing but the ghosting/ringing seems much
more noticeable.

> But, even my HLD X9 will have "false outlines" on edges. The sharper
> the picture, the more these "ringing" lines can be seen.

This suggests there is some digital sharpening always turned on.

However, sharpening normally causes very close ringing, not well
separated like this.

I'm not surprised to see it on low-end LD players, since LD video must
be reasonably challenging stuff, but I would have thought higher-end
players would have sorted out such obvious things.

> This concept is explored in Video Essentials. The chapter that talks
> about sharpness discusses "false outlines" as being an artifact of
> excessive sharpness.

Yes, I watched that section :)  I've turned all the sharpness settings
down to zero/neutral, including my 704. In any case the DNR on the 704
seems quite mild, and free of obvious bad side effects. Cleans up static
areas nicely without messing up edges.

--
aaronl at consultant dot com
For every expert, there is an equal and
opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke
!