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Slave flash and digital camera

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Anonymous
November 6, 2004 4:47:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.zlr (More info?)

With my old film SLR I sometimes used a couple of slave flashes to light up
a distant part of the scene. I cannot find a digital camera that can cope
with this.

In the last few years I have worked my way through 7 or 8 digital cameras,
including a couple of Olympus models, a Casio and one of the original old
timers (circa '97)- a black and white Logitech that produced blocky postage
stamp size images.

Currently I am using a Lumix FZ10 and this gives me some very strange
results that I haven't been able to puzzle out yet. The slave flash is
triggered when it "sees" the built in flash of the Lumix but this is not
recorded in the picture. In fact a picture taken with the slave firing in
the background also doesn't register the light from the built in flash and
is under illuminated. If I leave the set up as it was but turn off the slave
then the picture is fine, although of course the distant field is dark. Turn
the slave on again and once more the whole picture is dark, i.e. no sign of
either the light from the slave flash or the built in flash.

Does anyone have any ideas? Has anyone else tried using slaves with a
digital? If so, to what effect? And with what settings?

Best regards

Robert R.
Anonymous
November 6, 2004 4:47:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.zlr (More info?)

"Bill Again" <bill@addcom.de> writes:

> With my old film SLR I sometimes used a couple of slave flashes to light up
> a distant part of the scene. I cannot find a digital camera that can cope
> with this.
>
> In the last few years I have worked my way through 7 or 8 digital cameras,
> including a couple of Olympus models, a Casio and one of the original old
> timers (circa '97)- a black and white Logitech that produced blocky postage
> stamp size images.
>
> Currently I am using a Lumix FZ10 and this gives me some very strange
> results that I haven't been able to puzzle out yet. The slave flash is
> triggered when it "sees" the built in flash of the Lumix but this is not
> recorded in the picture. In fact a picture taken with the slave firing in
> the background also doesn't register the light from the built in flash and
> is under illuminated. If I leave the set up as it was but turn off the slave
> then the picture is fine, although of course the distant field is dark. Turn
> the slave on again and once more the whole picture is dark, i.e. no sign of
> either the light from the slave flash or the built in flash.
>
> Does anyone have any ideas? Has anyone else tried using slaves with a
> digital? If so, to what effect? And with what settings?

Most digital cameras use one or more pre-flashes (not counting the usual
red-eye strobe effect, which I assume you already turned off) to figure out
what the settings will be.

Some cameras have the ability to turn off this preflash (Nikon and Canon DSLRs
should do it when in manual mode, high end Olympus cameras have a slave mode
when shooting in manual mode).

The simplest approach is to use an external flash connected to your camera.
Unfortunately, the Panasonic has a misfeature regarding external flash --
namely the lens is stopped down to the f/stop that you use which makes it hard
to use the EVF or LCD for framing in some situations. The usual work around is
to use aperture priority mode, which will set your shutter speed to 1/60.

You can also get Wein digital slave triggers that wait for the second flash
before firing. Sunpak also makes a flash bracket that has a digital slave
trigger builtin for use with cameras that don't have an external flash
support. These assume your camera only puts out one preflash (which is the
common case).

If you were getting new flashes, the Vivitar DF200 is a slave only flash that
has a learning mode that it can identify the number of preflashes your camera
makes.

--
Michael Meissner
email: mrmnews@the-meissners.org
http://www.the-meissners.org
Anonymous
November 6, 2004 1:08:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.zlr (More info?)

Michael Meissner <mrmnews@the-meissners.org> writes:
> The simplest approach is to use an external flash connected to your camera.
> Unfortunately, the Panasonic has a misfeature regarding external flash --
> namely the lens is stopped down to the f/stop that you use which makes it
> hard to use the EVF or LCD for framing in some situations. The usual work
> around is to use aperture priority mode, which will set your shutter speed to
> 1/60.

I should have qualified that. By external flash in this case, I meant a
generic auto flash, and not a TTL flash (something like a Sunpak DS-20 on the
low end, or Vivitar 283/285HV, Sunpak 383 a bit higher up). A TTL flash will
act just like the onboard flash in terms of number of preflashes.

Note there are some people with fast enough reflexes that the preflash will
cause them to blink, and the camera will catch them with their eyes closed. If
this is the case, an auto flash will be helpful even without the slaves since
there will be only one flash pulse. An auto flash takes a little bit of work
compared to a TTL flash for a single flash setup, but presumably the original
author is already well versed in it if he/she was used to using slaves with
film cameras.

--
Michael Meissner
email: mrmnews@the-meissners.org
http://www.the-meissners.org
Related resources
Anonymous
November 10, 2004 5:05:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.zlr (More info?)

Michael Meissner wrote:
> "Bill Again" <bill@addcom.de> writes:
>
>> With my old film SLR I sometimes used a couple of slave flashes to
>> light up
>> a distant part of the scene. I cannot find a digital camera that can
>> cope with this.
>>

<snip>

> You can also get Wein digital slave triggers that wait for the second
> flash before firing. Sunpak also makes a flash bracket that has a
> digital slave trigger builtin for use with cameras that don't have an
> external flash support. These assume your camera only puts out one
> preflash (which is the common case).
>
> If you were getting new flashes, the Vivitar DF200 is a slave only
> flash that has a learning mode that it can identify the number of
> preflashes your camera makes.

I have one of these, haven't had a chance to fire it in anger, yet.

Two things I can't understand: why would Vivitar or their manufacturers
make a flash unit that
· doesn't have a "test" button and
· loses its memory of what it learned, when you turn it off?

You have to have another flash to make it flash (actually, it will flash
in the sun, no problem) and
You have to flash your flash flasher to teach it, every time you turn it
on. You reckon you are more likely to change cameras or forget to flash
your flash flasher between uses? The little button near the base turns
off the Detect feature, so it won't learn someone else's flash's
protocol.

Otherwise, I think it's going to be all right.


I also have another flash:

Sunpak "Digital Flash". It works the way you would expect, slave or auto
mode.

--
Frank ess
Anonymous
November 10, 2004 5:05:50 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.zlr (More info?)

"Frank ess" <frank@fshe2fs.com> writes:

> Michael Meissner wrote:
> > "Bill Again" <bill@addcom.de> writes:
> >
> >> With my old film SLR I sometimes used a couple of slave flashes to
> >> light up
> >> a distant part of the scene. I cannot find a digital camera that can
> >> cope with this.
> >>
>
> <snip>
>
> > You can also get Wein digital slave triggers that wait for the second
> > flash before firing. Sunpak also makes a flash bracket that has a
> > digital slave trigger builtin for use with cameras that don't have an
> > external flash support. These assume your camera only puts out one
> > preflash (which is the common case).
> >
> > If you were getting new flashes, the Vivitar DF200 is a slave only
> > flash that has a learning mode that it can identify the number of
> > preflashes your camera makes.
>
> I have one of these, haven't had a chance to fire it in anger, yet.
>
> Two things I can't understand: why would Vivitar or their manufacturers
> make a flash unit that
> · doesn't have a "test" button and
> · loses its memory of what it learned, when you turn it off?

And why make a slave only flash that goes to sleep? I can imagine a studio
type setup where you are trying to get things just right and it takes longer
than 3 minutes and the #@%! flash goes to sleep.

In terms of losing its memory, it probably is too expensive since the flash
would have to have non-volatile memory.

> You have to have another flash to make it flash (actually, it will flash
> in the sun, no problem) and
> You have to flash your flash flasher to teach it, every time you turn it
> on. You reckon you are more likely to change cameras or forget to flash
> your flash flasher between uses? The little button near the base turns
> off the Detect feature, so it won't learn someone else's flash's
> protocol.
>
> Otherwise, I think it's going to be all right.
>
>
> I also have another flash:
>
> Sunpak "Digital Flash". It works the way you would expect, slave or auto
> mode.

I believe this one has a hard wired delay that it fires its flash a fixed
amount of time after it sees the first flash, and works with a lot of cameras.
I suspect it might not work too well if your camera does a strobe effect.

--
Michael Meissner
email: mrmnews@the-meissners.org
http://www.the-meissners.org
Anonymous
November 10, 2004 9:55:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.zlr (More info?)

Michael Meissner wrote:
> "Frank ess" <frank@fshe2fs.com> writes:
>


>>>
>>> If you were getting new flashes, the Vivitar DF200 is a slave only
>>> flash that has a learning mode that it can identify the number of
>>> preflashes your camera makes.
>>
>> I have one of these, haven't had a chance to fire it in anger, yet.
>>
>> Two things I can't understand: why would Vivitar or their
>> manufacturers
>> make a flash unit that
>> · doesn't have a "test" button and
>> · loses its memory of what it learned, when you turn it off?
>
> And why make a slave only flash that goes to sleep? I can imagine a
> studio type setup where you are trying to get things just right and
> it takes longer than 3 minutes and the #@%! flash goes to sleep.
>

Holey moley. That's three.


--
Frank ess
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 5:35:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.zlr (More info?)

"Bill Again" <bill@addcom.de> wrote in message news:<cmh76h$rsk$01$1@news.t-online.com>...
> With my old film SLR I sometimes used a couple of slave flashes to light up
> a distant part of the scene. I cannot find a digital camera that can cope
> with this.
>
> In the last few years I have worked my way through 7 or 8 digital cameras,
> including a couple of Olympus models, a Casio and one of the original old
> timers (circa '97)- a black and white Logitech that produced blocky postage
> stamp size images.
>
> Currently I am using a Lumix FZ10 and this gives me some very strange
> results that I haven't been able to puzzle out yet. The slave flash is
> triggered when it "sees" the built in flash of the Lumix but this is not
> recorded in the picture. In fact a picture taken with the slave firing in
> the background also doesn't register the light from the built in flash and
> is under illuminated. If I leave the set up as it was but turn off the slave
> then the picture is fine, although of course the distant field is dark. Turn
> the slave on again and once more the whole picture is dark, i.e. no sign of
> either the light from the slave flash or the built in flash.
>
> Does anyone have any ideas? Has anyone else tried using slaves with a
> digital? If so, to what effect? And with what settings?

The problem with the slaves flashes is that they need to be triggered
by the flash from your camera, and they can screw up the exposure
because the metering system does not know about the slave. It is
always best to use a dedicated hot flash, made by the same
manufacturer as your camera, if possible.
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 3:17:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.zlr (More info?)

"Lukas Varossieau" <varossieau@mail2Netherlands.com> wrote in message
news:7c03b8b0.0411170235.190530be@posting.google.com...
> "Bill Again" <bill@addcom.de> wrote in message
> news:<cmh76h$rsk$01$1@news.t-online.com>...
>> With my old film SLR I sometimes used a couple of slave flashes to light
>> up
>> a distant part of the scene. I cannot find a digital camera that can cope
>> with this.
>>
>> In the last few years I have worked my way through 7 or 8 digital
>> cameras,
>> including a couple of Olympus models, a Casio and one of the original old
>> timers (circa '97)- a black and white Logitech that produced blocky
>> postage
>> stamp size images.
>>
>> Currently I am using a Lumix FZ10 and this gives me some very strange
>> results that I haven't been able to puzzle out yet. The slave flash is
>> triggered when it "sees" the built in flash of the Lumix but this is not
>> recorded in the picture. In fact a picture taken with the slave firing in
>> the background also doesn't register the light from the built in flash
>> and
>> is under illuminated. If I leave the set up as it was but turn off the
>> slave
>> then the picture is fine, although of course the distant field is dark.
>> Turn
>> the slave on again and once more the whole picture is dark, i.e. no sign
>> of
>> either the light from the slave flash or the built in flash.
>>
>> Does anyone have any ideas? Has anyone else tried using slaves with a
>> digital? If so, to what effect? And with what settings?
>
> The problem with the slaves flashes is that they need to be triggered
> by the flash from your camera, and they can screw up the exposure
> because the metering system does not know about the slave. It is
> always best to use a dedicated hot flash, made by the same
> manufacturer as your camera, if possible.

Not in all circumstances. I want to use the slave flash(es) at a distant (10
to 15 metre) position. Can I use a long cable? Well if I can then it ties me
down, and this is why I have always found (with film) that slaves were very
useful and offered me lots of freedom and so on.

Anyway, I have, thanks to advice from this NG and from a specialist photo
retailer (Neithold - thoroughly recommended) ordered a Metz slave that
"learns" the flash characteristics of the camera that is triggering it. If
nothing else this should be an interesting exercise. :-)

Robert R.
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 3:17:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.zlr (More info?)

"Bill Again" <bill@addcom.de> writes:

> Not in all circumstances. I want to use the slave flash(es) at a distant (10
> to 15 metre) position. Can I use a long cable? Well if I can then it ties me
> down, and this is why I have always found (with film) that slaves were very
> useful and offered me lots of freedom and so on.

There are wireless triggers and receivers that can be used in this case. The
higher end models like PocketWizard have selectable channels so that if you are
in an area with other photographers (such as a wedding for instance) your slave
isn't set off by the other guy's gear.

--
Michael Meissner
email: mrmnews@the-meissners.org
http://www.the-meissners.org
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 6:35:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.zlr (More info?)

"Michael Meissner" <mrmnews@the-meissners.org> wrote in message
news:m31xeszjcq.fsf@glinda.the-meissners.org...
> "Bill Again" <bill@addcom.de> writes:
>
>> Not in all circumstances. I want to use the slave flash(es) at a distant
>> (10
>> to 15 metre) position. Can I use a long cable? Well if I can then it ties
>> me
>> down, and this is why I have always found (with film) that slaves were
>> very
>> useful and offered me lots of freedom and so on.
>
> There are wireless triggers and receivers that can be used in this case.
> The
> higher end models like PocketWizard have selectable channels so that if
> you are
> in an area with other photographers (such as a wedding for instance) your
> slave
> isn't set off by the other guy's gear.
>
> --
> Michael Meissner
> email: mrmnews@the-meissners.org
> http://www.the-meissners.org

Very neat. Looks like there is lots to play with in this area. :-)

Robert R.
Anonymous
November 18, 2004 10:16:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.zlr (More info?)

"Bill Again" <bill@addcom.de> wrote in message news:<cnfc12$umq$05$1@news.t-online.com>...
> "Lukas Varossieau" <varossieau@mail2Netherlands.com> wrote in message
> news:7c03b8b0.0411170235.190530be@posting.google.com...
> > "Bill Again" <bill@addcom.de> wrote in message
> > news:<cmh76h$rsk$01$1@news.t-online.com>...
> >> With my old film SLR I sometimes used a couple of slave flashes to light
> >> up
> >> a distant part of the scene. I cannot find a digital camera that can cope
> >> with this.
> >>
> >> In the last few years I have worked my way through 7 or 8 digital
> >> cameras,
> >> including a couple of Olympus models, a Casio and one of the original old
> >> timers (circa '97)- a black and white Logitech that produced blocky
> >> postage
> >> stamp size images.
> >>
> >> Currently I am using a Lumix FZ10 and this gives me some very strange
> >> results that I haven't been able to puzzle out yet. The slave flash is
> >> triggered when it "sees" the built in flash of the Lumix but this is not
> >> recorded in the picture. In fact a picture taken with the slave firing in
> >> the background also doesn't register the light from the built in flash
> >> and
> >> is under illuminated. If I leave the set up as it was but turn off the
> >> slave
> >> then the picture is fine, although of course the distant field is dark.
> >> Turn
> >> the slave on again and once more the whole picture is dark, i.e. no sign
> >> of
> >> either the light from the slave flash or the built in flash.
> >>
> >> Does anyone have any ideas? Has anyone else tried using slaves with a
> >> digital? If so, to what effect? And with what settings?
> >
> > The problem with the slaves flashes is that they need to be triggered
> > by the flash from your camera, and they can screw up the exposure
> > because the metering system does not know about the slave. It is
> > always best to use a dedicated hot flash, made by the same
> > manufacturer as your camera, if possible.
>
> Not in all circumstances. I want to use the slave flash(es) at a distant (10
> to 15 metre) position. Can I use a long cable? Well if I can then it ties me
> down, and this is why I have always found (with film) that slaves were very
> useful and offered me lots of freedom and so on.
>
> Anyway, I have, thanks to advice from this NG and from a specialist photo
> retailer (Neithold - thoroughly recommended) ordered a Metz slave that
> "learns" the flash characteristics of the camera that is triggering it. If
> nothing else this should be an interesting exercise. :-)

I stand corrected.
Anonymous
November 19, 2004 1:16:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.zlr (More info?)

"Lukas Varossieau" <varossieau@mail2Netherlands.com> wrote in message
news:7c03b8b0.0411181916.45e66dc0@posting.google.com...
> "Bill Again" <bill@addcom.de> wrote in message
> news:<cnfc12$umq$05$1@news.t-online.com>...
>> "Lukas Varossieau" <varossieau@mail2Netherlands.com> wrote in message
>> news:7c03b8b0.0411170235.190530be@posting.google.com...
>> > "Bill Again" <bill@addcom.de> wrote in message
>> > news:<cmh76h$rsk$01$1@news.t-online.com>...


snipped

>> > The problem with the slaves flashes is that they need to be triggered
>> > by the flash from your camera, and they can screw up the exposure
>> > because the metering system does not know about the slave. It is
>> > always best to use a dedicated hot flash, made by the same
>> > manufacturer as your camera, if possible.
>>
>> Not in all circumstances. I want to use the slave flash(es) at a distant
>> (10
>> to 15 metre) position. Can I use a long cable? Well if I can then it ties
>> me
>> down, and this is why I have always found (with film) that slaves were
>> very
>> useful and offered me lots of freedom and so on.
>>
>> Anyway, I have, thanks to advice from this NG and from a specialist photo
>> retailer (Neithold - thoroughly recommended) ordered a Metz slave that
>> "learns" the flash characteristics of the camera that is triggering it.
>> If
>> nothing else this should be an interesting exercise. :-)
>
> I stand corrected.

Not at all! All input is useful, and I thank you for it. You never know when
an idea can be just that bit of information that someone hasn't yet chanced
upon by themselves.

Robert R.
Anonymous
November 19, 2004 1:44:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.zlr (More info?)

"Bill Again" <bill@addcom.de> wrote in
news:cnfc12$umq$05$1@news.t-online.com:

> Anyway, I have, thanks to advice from this NG and from a specialist
> photo retailer (Neithold - thoroughly recommended) ordered a Metz
> slave that "learns" the flash characteristics of the camera that is
> triggering it.

Cool. What is the model and guide number? I am also looking into a slave
flash. I know there are a few inexpensive Sunpak models for around $30
or so, but I wonder how useful they could possibly be. They too have the
ability to ignore the pre-flash..a must for a digital slave.

--
Bill
Anonymous
November 19, 2004 1:44:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.zlr (More info?)

Woodchuck Bill wrote:
> "Bill Again" <bill@addcom.de> wrote in
> news:cnfc12$umq$05$1@news.t-online.com:
>
>> Anyway, I have, thanks to advice from this NG and from a specialist
>> photo retailer (Neithold - thoroughly recommended) ordered a Metz
>> slave that "learns" the flash characteristics of the camera that is
>> triggering it.
>
> Cool. What is the model and guide number? I am also looking into a
> slave flash. I know there are a few inexpensive Sunpak models for
> around $30 or so, but I wonder how useful they could possibly be.
> They too have the ability to ignore the pre-flash..a must for a
> digital slave.

I have the VIVITAR DF200 Digital Flash, $69.95 from BnH.
GN 92 @ 28, 28 @ 50.
It "learns" as advertised, but:

No "Test" button! In spit of what the manufacturer's pdf specs sheet
says. Or mayby I just can't find it.
It forgets what it learned, so every session requires at least one flash
to teach it.

Someone else mentioned another shortcoming, but I have forgotten what it
was, and can't find the post.

--
Frank ess
Anonymous
November 19, 2004 3:21:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.zlr (More info?)

"Woodchuck Bill" <bwr607@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95A63A5D4C456bswr607h4@130.133.1.4...
> "Bill Again" <bill@addcom.de> wrote in
> news:cnfc12$umq$05$1@news.t-online.com:
>
>> Anyway, I have, thanks to advice from this NG and from a specialist
>> photo retailer (Neithold - thoroughly recommended) ordered a Metz
>> slave that "learns" the flash characteristics of the camera that is
>> triggering it.
>
> Cool. What is the model and guide number? I am also looking into a slave
> flash. I know there are a few inexpensive Sunpak models for around $30
> or so, but I wonder how useful they could possibly be. They too have the
> ability to ignore the pre-flash..a must for a digital slave.
>
> --
> Bill

Well I thought that I would first try the Metz 28 CS2 digital as a
benchmark. You can see the details at the link here.

http://www.metz.de/en/photo_electronics/mecablitz_28_CS...

In Germany it costs 129 Euros ($168)

br Robert R.
Anonymous
November 19, 2004 8:31:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.zlr (More info?)

"Frank ess" <frank@fshe2fs.com> wrote in news:zamdnWVUMqWvtgPcRVn-
jA@giganews.com:

> I have the VIVITAR DF200 Digital Flash, $69.95 from BnH.
> GN 92 @ 28, 28 @ 50.
> It "learns" as advertised, but:

That's the other one I was thinking of! Thanks.

--
Bill
Anonymous
November 20, 2004 2:00:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.zlr (More info?)

"Frank ess" <frank@fshe2fs.com> writes:

> Someone else mentioned another shortcoming, but I have forgotten what it
> was, and can't find the post.

I posted that the flash goes to sleep if you haven't fired a flash in awhile,
which is downright silly for a slave only flash IMHO (ie, you might be in a
studio tyoe setting and rearranging things, and the flash goes to sleep). I
can see it for regular flashes, just not a slave only flash.

--
Michael Meissner
email: mrmnews@the-meissners.org
http://www.the-meissners.org
Anonymous
November 20, 2004 5:51:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.zlr (More info?)

"Michael Meissner" <mrmnews@the-meissners.org> wrote in message
news:m3sm75rwzb.fsf@tiktok.the-meissners.org...
> "Frank ess" <frank@fshe2fs.com> writes:
>
>> Someone else mentioned another shortcoming, but I have forgotten what it
>> was, and can't find the post.
>
> I posted that the flash goes to sleep if you haven't fired a flash in
> awhile,
> which is downright silly for a slave only flash IMHO (ie, you might be in
> a
> studio tyoe setting and rearranging things, and the flash goes to sleep).
> I
> can see it for regular flashes, just not a slave only flash.
>
> --
> Michael Meissner
> email: mrmnews@the-meissners.org
> http://www.the-meissners.org

The Metz slave that I picked up this morning goes to sleep after 8 minutes,
counted from when it is turned on. But every time it is used or set it
starts counting again. However in order to get over this if it is not
desired then one can turn that setting off and the thing simply stays on
till you manually turn it off or the batteries run out.

Robert R.
Anonymous
November 21, 2004 11:51:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital.zlr (More info?)

"Bill Again" <bill@addcom.de> writes:

> "Michael Meissner" <mrmnews@the-meissners.org> wrote in message
> news:m3sm75rwzb.fsf@tiktok.the-meissners.org...
> > "Frank ess" <frank@fshe2fs.com> writes:
> >
> >> Someone else mentioned another shortcoming, but I have forgotten what it
> >> was, and can't find the post.
> >
> > I posted that the flash goes to sleep if you haven't fired a flash in
> > awhile,
> > which is downright silly for a slave only flash IMHO (ie, you might be in
> > a
> > studio tyoe setting and rearranging things, and the flash goes to sleep).
> > I
> > can see it for regular flashes, just not a slave only flash.
>
> The Metz slave that I picked up this morning goes to sleep after 8 minutes,
> counted from when it is turned on. But every time it is used or set it
> starts counting again. However in order to get over this if it is not
> desired then one can turn that setting off and the thing simply stays on
> till you manually turn it off or the batteries run out.

However, my reading of the Vivitar DF200 manual doesn't indicate such an
option. I do tend to believe that Metz flashes are better made and designed
than Vivitar, though you often times pay for that....

--
Michael Meissner
email: mrmnews@the-meissners.org
http://www.the-meissners.org
!