Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

DVL-909 Question

Last response: in Home Theatre Legacy
Share
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 9:17:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

I have just been given a DVL-909 by a friend to replace a Laser Disk
player I have had for years that broke. The unit has component video
outputs (as far as I can tell they are only available on the US unit),
however the component outputs only seem to work for the DVDs, not the
LaserDiscs, which only play in black & white. Since I am only
interested in the LaserDisc portion of this player I am trying to find
out if there is any way to get the LaserDiscs to output in color using
the component outputs. If possible I would prefer using the component
outputs over the S-Video or Composite video outputs. If anyone has any
experience with this unit I would appreciate any advice.

More about : dvl 909 question

Anonymous
August 25, 2005 10:25:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 05:17:38 GMT, Paul O'Malley <paulomalley@comcast.net> wrote:


>I have just been given a DVL-909 by a friend to replace a Laser Disk
>player I have had for years that broke. The unit has component video
>outputs (as far as I can tell they are only available on the US unit),
>however the component outputs only seem to work for the DVDs, not the
>LaserDiscs, which only play in black & white. Since I am only
>interested in the LaserDisc portion of this player I am trying to find
>out if there is any way to get the LaserDiscs to output in color using
>the component outputs. If possible I would prefer using the component
>outputs over the S-Video or Composite video outputs. If anyone has any
>experience with this unit I would appreciate any advice.

Laserdisks store the video signal in composite form. Using any other cable
other than composite will not yield the slightest improvement. In fact, if your
TV is newer than the laserdisk player, using its comb filter (ie: using a
composite signal) will be an improvement.
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 11:16:41 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

Paul O'Malley wrote:
> I have just been given a DVL-909 by a friend to replace a Laser Disk
> player I have had for years that broke. The unit has component video
> outputs (as far as I can tell they are only available on the US unit),
> however the component outputs only seem to work for the DVDs, not the
> LaserDiscs, which only play in black & white. Since I am only
> interested in the LaserDisc portion of this player I am trying to find
> out if there is any way to get the LaserDiscs to output in color using
> the component outputs. If possible I would prefer using the component
> outputs over the S-Video or Composite video outputs. If anyone has any
> experience with this unit I would appreciate any advice.

The component outputs are only for the DVD player and will not work
with the LD player. You can only use the S-Video or composite outputs
for LD. Which one to use depends on your display device. Your LD
player has a 3 line digital comb filter, which is good but if you are
using a modern TV, such as an HDTV, it likely has a better comb filter.
If you wish to use the comb filter in the LD player, use the S-video
output. If you believe your displays comb filter is better, then use
the composite output. Using composite will bypass the LD players comb
filter and use the one in the TV.

I agree that most of the time it is better to use the composite output
if you have a modern TV unless you have one of the higher end LD player
that has a 3D comb filter, such as the X9 and S9.
Related resources
Can't find your answer ? Ask !
August 25, 2005 8:36:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

There's a third party add-on board that will enable RGB component
output on the Laserdisc, see this page:
http://www.bde.de/rgb.htm
Anonymous
August 26, 2005 4:31:21 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:36:45 GMT, NEWman <koREMOVETHISteANDTHIStsu@libero.it> wrote:


>There's a third party add-on board that will enable RGB component
>output on the Laserdisc, see this page:
>http://www.bde.de/rgb.htm

Waste of money and it won't make the slightest improvement.
August 26, 2005 8:59:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 00:31:21 GMT, AZ Nomad <aznomad@PmunOgeBOX.com>
wrote:

>>There's a third party add-on board that will enable RGB component
>>output on the Laserdisc, see this page:
>>http://www.bde.de/rgb.htm
>
>Waste of money and it won't make the slightest improvement.

Have you tried/seen a unit with this mod?
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 2:50:25 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

"NEWman" <koREMOVETHISteANDTHIStsu@libero.it> wrote in message
news:2hiug1pikbt427vi1jtf0uak3m39uo49cc@4ax.com...
>>>There's a third party add-on board that will enable RGB component
>>>output on the Laserdisc, see this page:
>>>http://www.bde.de/rgb.htm
>>
>>Waste of money and it won't make the slightest improvement.
>
> Have you tried/seen a unit with this mod?

Laserdisc video is stored in composite format. Any modification to allow
a component video connection will just adapt that composite video to
component-compatible output, but will not actually improve the video
quality any.
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 2:50:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:50:25 GMT, "Joshua Zyber"
<jzyber@mind-NOSPAM-spring.com> wrote:

>"NEWman" <koREMOVETHISteANDTHIStsu@libero.it> wrote in message
>news:2hiug1pikbt427vi1jtf0uak3m39uo49cc@4ax.com...
>>>>There's a third party add-on board that will enable RGB component
>>>>output on the Laserdisc, see this page:
>>>>http://www.bde.de/rgb.htm
>>>
>>>Waste of money and it won't make the slightest improvement.
>>
>> Have you tried/seen a unit with this mod?
>
>Laserdisc video is stored in composite format. Any modification to allow
>a component video connection will just adapt that composite video to
>component-compatible output, but will not actually improve the video
>quality any.

Right, taking RGB from composite baseband video is exactly what a
colour demodulator in a TV does when it takes a composite or Y/C
signal and demodulates it and matrixes the result to the red, green,
and blue guns of a picture tube. And quality varies widely depending
upon the sophistication and cost of the demodulator. A comb filter has
to be part of the circuit with laserdisc as the source. The comb
filter and demodulator of the TV could very well give better results
than some aftermarket box.

The only advantage to a cheap RGB demodulator is that it can be used
with an RGB-only monitor, such as a PC monitor, and in fact that there
are consumer-grade boxes that take TV or a video signal and output to
a PC/MAC monitor.


I am lucky enough to have a broadcast demodulator made by Sony, it
takes in composite or Y/C NTSC or PAL baseband video, puts the
composite input through an adaptive 3-line comb filter, and outputs
RGB and Yuv using an involved digital method. This box cost thousands
of dollars when new, and still fetches a good sum from Jobbers. There
is no "quick fix" to get RGB from composite with good results.


... Steve ..
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 5:58:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

NEWman skrev:

>
> What if the RGB is taken in the internal processing board of the LD
> player *BEFORE* being recombined into composite to be outputted?

Oh, you're so right man.

The S-video signal is taken from a chip, that also has unused RGB-pins.
I think it's a SONY chip.

This subject has been touched before in this NG a couple of years ago.

Brian Hougaard Baldersbæk
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 9:28:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

On 27 Aug 2005 01:58:01 -0700, "[DK6400] Brian Hougaard Baldersbæk"
<DK6400Brian@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>NEWman skrev:
>
>>
>> What if the RGB is taken in the internal processing board of the LD
>> player *BEFORE* being recombined into composite to be outputted?
>
>Oh, you're so right man.
>
>The S-video signal is taken from a chip, that also has unused RGB-pins.
>I think it's a SONY chip.

That chip is part of the colour demodulator I referred to. The chip
also has support for a comb filter.

Read A Z Nomad's post, the laser uses baseband composite video, any
Y/C output and RGB is extra processing, more easily accomplished in
the Tv set.
>
>This subject has been touched before in this NG a couple of years ago.
>
>Brian Hougaard Baldersbæk

... Steve ..
August 27, 2005 10:55:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:50:25 GMT, "Joshua Zyber"
<jzyber@mind-NOSPAM-spring.com> wrote:

>"NEWman" <koREMOVETHISteANDTHIStsu@libero.it> wrote in message
>news:2hiug1pikbt427vi1jtf0uak3m39uo49cc@4ax.com...
>>>>There's a third party add-on board that will enable RGB component
>>>>output on the Laserdisc, see this page:
>>>>http://www.bde.de/rgb.htm
>>>
>>>Waste of money and it won't make the slightest improvement.
>>
>> Have you tried/seen a unit with this mod?
>
>Laserdisc video is stored in composite format. Any modification to allow
>a component video connection will just adapt that composite video to
>component-compatible output, but will not actually improve the video
>quality any.

What if the RGB is taken in the internal processing board of the LD
player *BEFORE* being recombined into composite to be outputted?
That would be the use of that board, obviously getting RGB *AFTER* it
has been ricombined into composite would be pointless.
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 11:32:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 06:55:12 GMT, NEWman <koREMOVETHISteANDTHIStsu@libero.it> wrote:


>On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:50:25 GMT, "Joshua Zyber"
><jzyber@mind-NOSPAM-spring.com> wrote:

>>"NEWman" <koREMOVETHISteANDTHIStsu@libero.it> wrote in message
>>news:2hiug1pikbt427vi1jtf0uak3m39uo49cc@4ax.com...
>>>>>There's a third party add-on board that will enable RGB component
>>>>>output on the Laserdisc, see this page:
>>>>>http://www.bde.de/rgb.htm
>>>>
>>>>Waste of money and it won't make the slightest improvement.
>>>
>>> Have you tried/seen a unit with this mod?
>>
>>Laserdisc video is stored in composite format. Any modification to allow
>>a component video connection will just adapt that composite video to
>>component-compatible output, but will not actually improve the video
>>quality any.

>What if the RGB is taken in the internal processing board of the LD
>player *BEFORE* being recombined into composite to be outputted?
>That would be the use of that board, obviously getting RGB *AFTER* it
>has been ricombined into composite would be pointless.

Then you're not talking about a laserdisk player. Laserdisk's have composite
video stored on the disk itself. They don't extract RGB and then combine
to a composite signal.
August 27, 2005 10:25:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 07:32:08 GMT, AZ Nomad <aznomad@PmunOgeBOX.com>
wrote:

>Then you're not talking about a laserdisk player. Laserdisk's have composite
>video stored on the disk itself. They don't extract RGB and then combine
>to a composite signal.

I doubt that what you get on the composite output of the unit is the
exact same thing that's printed on the disc.
I'm not talking about ALL the LDP on the market, but only those who
have "enhancements" of some sort to give a cleaner/sharper/better
output signal, this unit (909) in particular.
The LDP does some "work " on the signal, and to do that it has to work
at component level.
August 27, 2005 10:30:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 05:28:00 -0400, "Steve(JazzHunter)"
<jazzhunterNotHere@internet.com> wrote:

>Read A Z Nomad's post, the laser uses baseband composite video, any
>Y/C output and RGB is extra processing, more easily accomplished in
>the Tv set.
>>
Getting RGB at the unit would eliminate the need to do the recombining
in the unit and then the separation in the TV.
You'll skip 2 steps that WILL add noise/artifacts.
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 10:30:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:30:49 GMT, NEWman
<koREMOVETHISteANDTHIStsu@libero.it> wrote:

>On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 05:28:00 -0400, "Steve(JazzHunter)"
><jazzhunterNotHere@internet.com> wrote:
>
>>Read A Z Nomad's post, the laser uses baseband composite video, any
>>Y/C output and RGB is extra processing, more easily accomplished in
>>the Tv set.
>>>
>Getting RGB at the unit would eliminate the need to do the recombining
>in the unit and then the separation in the TV.
>You'll skip 2 steps that WILL add noise/artifacts.

Laserdisc, like C-format and Quad tape, (but not home consumer formats
or Betacam etc.) has the video recorded as composite. Period.
Luninance and chroma are all combined into one signal. To obtain RGB
is to use a colour demodulator, with its intrinsic likelihood of
colour phase errors, incorrect saturation etc. There is no differnce
whatsoever between obtaining RGB from a composite signal and detecting
colour in a TV set. None. Outputting the compsite to the TV then
using the TV to detect the colour has the same number of steps as
demodulating to RGB at the player and outputting that to an RGB
monitor. If any further processing is done to the RGB output then
that is more steps than just using the composite. "Enhancements" are
nothing to do with it.

... Steve ..
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 11:01:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:30:49 GMT, NEWman <koREMOVETHISteANDTHIStsu@libero.it> wrote:


>On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 05:28:00 -0400, "Steve(JazzHunter)"
><jazzhunterNotHere@internet.com> wrote:

>>Read A Z Nomad's post, the laser uses baseband composite video, any
>>Y/C output and RGB is extra processing, more easily accomplished in
>>the Tv set.
>>>
>Getting RGB at the unit would eliminate the need to do the recombining
>in the unit and then the separation in the TV.
>You'll skip 2 steps that WILL add noise/artifacts.

That would make sense if there really was recombining in the unit.
August 28, 2005 10:52:18 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:38:11 -0400, "Steve(JazzHunter)"
<jazzhunterNotHere@internet.com> wrote:

>Laserdisc, like C-format and Quad tape, (but not home consumer formats
>or Betacam etc.) has the video recorded as composite. Period.

Why do you people still insist on that point??????
Nobody says the disc contains component data, what I'm TRYING to say
is this: since the signal *IS* subject to some elaboration before
going out there should be an advantage in tapping the signal before
the last step.

I have a question: how do the V-DNR, Freeze frame and "special
effects" for CLV discs work?
Don't you think that at some point there should be an AD conversion?
Don't you think that to do that, the composite signal should be at
least separated in Chroma and Luma parts?

Then comes the theoretical part regarding the output:
Since the unit, besides being an LD player, is ALSO a DVD player don't
you think that maybe would be logical to use the same DA conversion
circuit that is being used for the DVD?

>Outputting the compsite to the TV then
>using the TV to detect the colour has the same number of steps as
>demodulating to RGB at the player and outputting that to an RGB
>monitor.

I disagree, we are speaking about a DVL 909 here, this unit doesn't
have an unadulterated composite signal on the output plug.
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 10:52:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 06:52:18 GMT, NEWman
<koREMOVETHISteANDTHIStsu@libero.it> wrote:

>On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:38:11 -0400, "Steve(JazzHunter)"
><jazzhunterNotHere@internet.com> wrote:
>
>>Laserdisc, like C-format and Quad tape, (but not home consumer formats
>>or Betacam etc.) has the video recorded as composite. Period.
>
>Why do you people still insist on that point??????
>Nobody says the disc contains component data, what I'm TRYING to say
>is this: since the signal *IS* subject to some elaboration before
>going out there should be an advantage in tapping the signal before
>the last step.

Then you want a player that does nothing to the signal, just a basic
player like the S201, since more advanced players do have some digital
processing after the RF demodulator used to recover the baseband video
from the laser.
>
>I have a question: how do the V-DNR, Freeze frame and "special
>effects" for CLV discs work?
>Don't you think that at some point there should be an AD conversion?
>Don't you think that to do that, the composite signal should be at
>least separated in Chroma and Luma parts?

Yes, so?
>
>Then comes the theoretical part regarding the output:
>Since the unit, besides being an LD player, is ALSO a DVD player don't
>you think that maybe would be logical to use the same DA conversion
>circuit that is being used for the DVD?

An Mpeg is by its nature made up of digital information comprising
luminance, Red, and Blue. The RGB or more accurately Yuv output just
taps the appropriate data streams (this is VERY much in layman terms!
That's where the 4:2:2 and 4:1:1 desription for colour bandwidth comes
from) An Mpeg is not composite, it doesn't have to have the components
separated at any point.
>
>>Outputting the compsite to the TV then
>>using the TV to detect the colour has the same number of steps as
>>demodulating to RGB at the player and outputting that to an RGB
>>monitor.
>
>I disagree, we are speaking about a DVL 909 here, this unit doesn't
>have an unadulterated composite signal on the output plug.

So where's the advantage? The output of that player is composite, and
the TV has the comb filter and colour demodulator. If you take a
signal before the processing in the player then its still a composite
signal, except noisier.

... Steve ..
>
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 8:23:56 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 03:23:47 -0400, Steve(JazzHunter) <jazzhunterNotHere@internet.com> wrote:


>On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 06:52:18 GMT, NEWman
><koREMOVETHISteANDTHIStsu@libero.it> wrote:

>>On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:38:11 -0400, "Steve(JazzHunter)"
>><jazzhunterNotHere@internet.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Laserdisc, like C-format and Quad tape, (but not home consumer formats
>>>or Betacam etc.) has the video recorded as composite. Period.
>>
>>Why do you people still insist on that point??????
>>Nobody says the disc contains component data, what I'm TRYING to say
>>is this: since the signal *IS* subject to some elaboration before
>>going out there should be an advantage in tapping the signal before
>>the last step.

>Then you want a player that does nothing to the signal, just a basic
>player like the S201, since more advanced players do have some digital
>processing after the RF demodulator used to recover the baseband video
>from the laser.

Can you name a single example of one that puts the signal through a comb filter
and then reconstructs it into a composite.
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 8:39:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

The DVL-909 is basically a CLD-D604 with a DV-505 DVD player inside and a
fancy mechanism to house the 604 and 505 pickups. The DVL-909 service
manual even states on the cover to refer to the DV-505 service guide for IC
information descriptions.

The LD signal is FM demodulated to composite analog, then goes to IC500
(D-Video Processor) on the CLDM board where it is digitized to an 8-bit
composite signal. It is then fed to the MYCB board to IC101 which is a
Pioneer design where the TBC/Digital Memory/ DVNR happens and then the 8-bit
signal is passed to IC301 which is the 3D comb Filter. The Analog Y/C
signals from that is fed to IC620 which is a relay that selects to output
the LD or DVD signal.

The DVD signal goes to the DVDM board and the Y/C is sent to the IC620 relay
on the MYCB board to output the DVD Y/C signal. Or if you have the
Component output enable the Y/Cr/Cb signal goes to the MYCB board and
immediately loops out to the ACVB board which are the terminal outputs(the
LD section has NO path to this output at all).

Now the Audio Section uses the same D/A's.

So as others are trying to tell you, the DVL series machines are actually
two separate players in one case Video wise. The only common circuitry is
the power supply and the common buffer output stages.

BTW, the composite signal is formed by mixing the Y/C signals you have
selected to output so in theory the Y/C should be a cleaner LD picture.

You are reading more in this than there is, what you are describing is not
there!! The LD section does not even have any separate Y/C signals you can
tap out in a digital domain, only signal available is the 8-bit parallel
composite. The board on top processes the DVD signals and the boards on the
bottom process the LD signals and the two shall never meet until output
selection and buffering. I'd suggest taking the Analog immediately after
the FM demodulation, but then again this would be a CLD-S201 and you didn't
like that suggestion.

Kurtis

"NEWman" <koREMOVETHISteANDTHIStsu@libero.it> wrote in message
news:D 2l2h15q3f25mpfn7pupb96as3r8pgfash@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:38:11 -0400, "Steve(JazzHunter)"
> <jazzhunterNotHere@internet.com> wrote:
>
>>Laserdisc, like C-format and Quad tape, (but not home consumer formats
>>or Betacam etc.) has the video recorded as composite. Period.
>
> Why do you people still insist on that point??????
> Nobody says the disc contains component data, what I'm TRYING to say
> is this: since the signal *IS* subject to some elaboration before
> going out there should be an advantage in tapping the signal before
> the last step.
>
> I have a question: how do the V-DNR, Freeze frame and "special
> effects" for CLV discs work?
> Don't you think that at some point there should be an AD conversion?
> Don't you think that to do that, the composite signal should be at
> least separated in Chroma and Luma parts?
>
> Then comes the theoretical part regarding the output:
> Since the unit, besides being an LD player, is ALSO a DVD player don't
> you think that maybe would be logical to use the same DA conversion
> circuit that is being used for the DVD?
>
>>Outputting the compsite to the TV then
>>using the TV to detect the colour has the same number of steps as
>>demodulating to RGB at the player and outputting that to an RGB
>>monitor.
>
> I disagree, we are speaking about a DVL 909 here, this unit doesn't
> have an unadulterated composite signal on the output plug.
>
>
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 8:44:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

This unit CANNOT output RGB, It can output the Y/Cr/Cb (component) signal
from DVD's if selected as it is recorded in that format. The player has
NOTHING to generate the Y/Cr/CB (component), it only does the D/A and
outputs these signals from the MPEG decoder chip as with any other DVD
player. Again it CANNOT form the Y/Cr/Cb signal from a lower level signal
and the LD section is totally separate as described in the other posting I
made.

Kurtis

"NEWman" <koREMOVETHISteANDTHIStsu@libero.it> wrote in message
news:u0q2h1l8hsp0v7b41ih730ptnlobukdku2@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 03:23:47 -0400, "Steve(JazzHunter)"
> <jazzhunterNotHere@internet.com> wrote:
>
>
> I'm not talking about LD players in general... I don't care about
> other players, surely there are better units than this one.
> I'm talkin about a SPECIFIC LD player here (DVL 909), this unit (which
> is a medium quality player) has a DA converter unit that *CAN*
> output RGB data.
>
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 8:46:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

"AZ Nomad" <aznomad@PmunOgeBOX.com> wrote in message
news:slrndh3p8s.812.aznomad@ip70-176-155-130.ph.ph.cox.net...
> On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 03:23:47 -0400, Steve(JazzHunter)
> <jazzhunterNotHere@internet.com> wrote:
>
>
> Can you name a single example of one that puts the signal through a comb
> filter
> and then reconstructs it into a composite.

DVL-909 is a good one, there is a long list of players that do this.

Kurtis
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 1:35:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:23:56 GMT, AZ Nomad <aznomad@PmunOgeBOX.com>
wrote:

>Can you name a single example of [an LD player] that puts the signal through
>a comb filter and then reconstructs it into a composite.

I can: Pioneer's top-of-the-line PAL player, the CLD-D925.

I'll bet there are many others.
August 29, 2005 2:42:07 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:39:03 -0400, "Kurtis Bahr" <kbahr@comcast.net>
wrote:

>The LD signal is FM demodulated to composite analog, then goes to IC500
>(D-Video Processor) on the CLDM board where it is digitized to an 8-bit
>composite signal. It is then fed to the MYCB board to IC101 which is a
>Pioneer design where the TBC/Digital Memory/ DVNR happens and then the 8-bit
>signal is passed to IC301 which is the 3D comb Filter. The Analog Y/C
>signals from that is fed to IC620 which is a relay that selects to output
>the LD or DVD signal.
[..]
>The DVD signal goes to the DVDM board and the Y/C is sent to the IC620 relay
>on the MYCB board to output the DVD Y/C signal. Or if you have the
>Component output enable the Y/Cr/Cb signal goes to the MYCB board and
>immediately loops out to the ACVB board which are the terminal outputs(the
>LD section has NO path to this output at all).

Ok, I got it. Still I would like to see the schematics myself.
But what about the CLD 925 then? What does the RGB capable encoder
present in that machine?
And how could the add-on board that is sold, be compatible with both
the 925 and DVL909?

>You are reading more in this than there is, what you are describing is not
>there!! The LD section does not even have any separate Y/C signals you can
>tap out in a digital domain, only signal available is the 8-bit parallel
>composite.
> The board on top processes the DVD signals and the boards on the
>bottom process the LD signals and the two shall never meet until output
>selection and buffering.

But both boards share the On Screen Display, where is this mixed
into? In the IC101?

>I'd suggest taking the Analog immediately after
>the FM demodulation, but then again this would be a CLD-S201 and you didn't
>like that suggestion.

Wouldn't be possible to use the digitized data stream from the CLDM
board?
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 4:10:58 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

Wow, this is so cool! The wheel is being re-invented.
Take Kurtis' word for it. He's dead on.
And if you want to see the 909 schematic, simply order the service manual
(RRV1871, in stock @ $51.20)....


"NEWman" <koREMOVETHISteANDTHIStsu@libero.it> wrote in message
news:cde4h1dh64uuapgi5dj0ivg81lrneu3kd4@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:39:03 -0400, "Kurtis Bahr" <kbahr@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> >The LD signal is FM demodulated to composite analog, then goes to IC500
> >(D-Video Processor) on the CLDM board where it is digitized to an 8-bit
> >composite signal. It is then fed to the MYCB board to IC101 which is a
> >Pioneer design where the TBC/Digital Memory/ DVNR happens and then the
8-bit
> >signal is passed to IC301 which is the 3D comb Filter. The Analog Y/C
> >signals from that is fed to IC620 which is a relay that selects to output
> >the LD or DVD signal.
> [..]
> >The DVD signal goes to the DVDM board and the Y/C is sent to the IC620
relay
> >on the MYCB board to output the DVD Y/C signal. Or if you have the
> >Component output enable the Y/Cr/Cb signal goes to the MYCB board and
> >immediately loops out to the ACVB board which are the terminal
outputs(the
> >LD section has NO path to this output at all).
>
> Ok, I got it. Still I would like to see the schematics myself.
> But what about the CLD 925 then? What does the RGB capable encoder
> present in that machine?
> And how could the add-on board that is sold, be compatible with both
> the 925 and DVL909?
>
> >You are reading more in this than there is, what you are describing is
not
> >there!! The LD section does not even have any separate Y/C signals you
can
> >tap out in a digital domain, only signal available is the 8-bit parallel
> >composite.
> > The board on top processes the DVD signals and the boards on the
> >bottom process the LD signals and the two shall never meet until output
> >selection and buffering.
>
> But both boards share the On Screen Display, where is this mixed
> into? In the IC101?
>
> >I'd suggest taking the Analog immediately after
> >the FM demodulation, but then again this would be a CLD-S201 and you
didn't
> >like that suggestion.
>
> Wouldn't be possible to use the digitized data stream from the CLDM
> board?
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 4:10:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 00:10:58 GMT, "ldservice"
<service@nospam.laserdiscservice.com> wrote:

>Wow, this is so cool! The wheel is being re-invented.
>Take Kurtis' word for it. He's dead on.
>And if you want to see the 909 schematic, simply order the service manual
>(RRV1871, in stock @ $51.20)....

Yep, Newman is taking quotes from Kurtis out of context and
reinventing the laws of physics. quite clever actually. :-)

... Steve ..
>
>
>"NEWman" <koREMOVETHISteANDTHIStsu@libero.it> wrote in message
>news:cde4h1dh64uuapgi5dj0ivg81lrneu3kd4@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:39:03 -0400, "Kurtis Bahr" <kbahr@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>
August 29, 2005 4:12:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 19:47:05 -0400, "Steve(JazzHunter)"
<jazzhunterNotHere@internet.com> wrote:

>>On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:44:23 -0400, "Kurtis Bahr" <kbahr@comcast.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>This unit CANNOT output RGB, It can output the Y/Cr/Cb (component) signal
>>>from DVD's if selected as it is recorded in that format. The player has
>>
>>AFAIK PAL units can also output RGB from the DVD section.
>
>Mpegs are rendered as Y (-r -b) or Y/Cr/Cb. RGB is the result of
>matrixing those chroma and luminance components. There is no
>difference, it's just a matter of what one wants as the final output.
>"Matrixing" is the process of resistively mixing the luminance and
>chroma components to obtain different values for the detected chroma,
>again speaking in laymans terms.

Please stop repeating again and again the same stuff ;-)
Nobody is disputing about what is component, RGB, MPEG or whatever.

Kurtis wrote:
"This unit CANNOT output RGB"
I Simply replied:
"AFAIK PAL units can also output RGB from the DVD section"

There's no LD talk involved in this part.

>>> a) I found that my CLD-925
>>[...]
>>>> b) The same machine uses also a CXA 1645M RGB Encoder chip with (unused) RGB
>>>> output pins. Since there are projectors and monitors here being able to make
>>>> use of the RGB signals, would it make sense to route these signals to 3
>>>> seperate output pins (buffered if necessary) to achieve a better picture
>>>> quality??
>>
>>>As for taking out RGB, it again becomes what is better. The Sony Chip or your
>>>monitor. LD is recorded in composite so the objective is to use the unit that
>>>does the best job. RGB out could be OK but I'd guess not worth the return on
>>>the design investment for Pioneer as most won't use it. Those that can afford
>>>RGB projectors usually can afford the Faroudja line
>>>doublers/triplers/quadruplers that are much nicer than this chip. This would be
>>>more of a DIY project for someone that wanted to play as you'd need to design an
>>>output drive circuit for each color and verify there are no time delays.
>>>
>>>Kurtis
>>
>>Here you don't deny the possibility to get RGB... So, have you changed
>>your mind in the meantime? :) 
>

>He said exactly what I've been saying and that he said in today's
>post, that obtaining RGB is a process of DEMODULATING the chroma from
>the composite video, again that's what the TV does.

He replied to a specific question regarding the possibility to use the
CXA 1645M RGB Encoder chip present in that unit (CLD -925).
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 4:29:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

You just don't get it. When I talked about the return on investment for
Pioneer that would be the return of designing a RGB decoder into the player.
You are taking me way out of context and not understanding what I said.

For the OSD, well you have two players here in one box and each has it's own
OSD capability.

You could design a circuit to use the 8-bit digital signal but it is
digitized composite.

THERE IS NO RGB or Y/Cr/Cb (Component) LD PLAYER AVAILABLE.

My discussion here is over as you refuse to even listen to laserdiscservice
who is Pioneer trained on the internals of the players from the beginning.

Kurtis

"NEWman" <koREMOVETHISteANDTHIStsu@libero.it> wrote in message
news:cde4h1dh64uuapgi5dj0ivg81lrneu3kd4@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:39:03 -0400, "Kurtis Bahr" <kbahr@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>>The LD signal is FM demodulated to composite analog, then goes to IC500
>>(D-Video Processor) on the CLDM board where it is digitized to an 8-bit
>>composite signal. It is then fed to the MYCB board to IC101 which is a
>>Pioneer design where the TBC/Digital Memory/ DVNR happens and then the
>>8-bit
>>signal is passed to IC301 which is the 3D comb Filter. The Analog Y/C
>>signals from that is fed to IC620 which is a relay that selects to output
>>the LD or DVD signal.
> [..]
>>The DVD signal goes to the DVDM board and the Y/C is sent to the IC620
>>relay
>>on the MYCB board to output the DVD Y/C signal. Or if you have the
>>Component output enable the Y/Cr/Cb signal goes to the MYCB board and
>>immediately loops out to the ACVB board which are the terminal outputs(the
>>LD section has NO path to this output at all).
>
> Ok, I got it. Still I would like to see the schematics myself.
> But what about the CLD 925 then? What does the RGB capable encoder
> present in that machine?
> And how could the add-on board that is sold, be compatible with both
> the 925 and DVL909?
>
>>You are reading more in this than there is, what you are describing is not
>>there!! The LD section does not even have any separate Y/C signals you
>>can
>>tap out in a digital domain, only signal available is the 8-bit parallel
>>composite.
>> The board on top processes the DVD signals and the boards on the
>>bottom process the LD signals and the two shall never meet until output
>>selection and buffering.
>
> But both boards share the On Screen Display, where is this mixed
> into? In the IC101?
>
>>I'd suggest taking the Analog immediately after
>>the FM demodulation, but then again this would be a CLD-S201 and you
>>didn't
>>like that suggestion.
>
> Wouldn't be possible to use the digitized data stream from the CLDM
> board?
August 29, 2005 8:54:16 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

I have to beg your pardon: yesterday I've received your 2nd message
but not the first, so I replied to that before the other.
In the first you explained the signal path and denied the mixing of
the LD and DVD part, but I hadn't seen that when I replied to your
2nd.
The fact that you denied the possibility to get RGB from the DAC
killed my interest in that operation.

>You just don't get it. When I talked about the return on investment for
>Pioneer that would be the return of designing a RGB decoder into the player.
>You are taking me way out of context and not understanding what I said.

Mmmh in that message you replied to someone who mentioned a chip and
asked about it.
But anyway doesn't matter.

BTW I kept that old message because I would have liked to ask you to
explain more about the possibility to use THAT chip.

>THERE IS NO RGB or Y/Cr/Cb (Component) LD PLAYER AVAILABLE.

Actually there are at least 2 European models with RGB.
And before you or the others attack me: I perfectly know that they
generate RGB from the composite and the quality is low.

>My discussion here is over as you refuse to even listen to laserdiscservice
>who is Pioneer trained on the internals of the players from the beginning.

What have I done now? I got laserdiscservice message and I read it, he
confirmed your affirmations, I didn't dispute that. I didn't reply to
him.
Do you want me to write this?:

I WAS IN ERROR IN SUPPOSING THAT THE ELABORATION OF THE SIGNAL INSIDE
THE LD UNIT WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE IN DIGITAL COMPONENT FORM.

INFACT THE DIGITIZED SIGNAL HAS BEEN CONFIRMED TO BE A DIGITALISATION
OF THE COMPOSITE SIGNAL TAKEN FROM THE DISC.

I WAS IN ERROR IN SUPPOSING THAT A DAC WITH RGB OUTPUT CAPABILITY
PRESENT IN THE UNIT, BECAUSE OF THE DVD SIDE, WOULD HAVE BEEN USED
ALSO FOR THE LD SIDE.

IT HAS BEEN CONFIRMED THAT LD AND DVD SIDES ARE SEPARATE.

Ok? :-)
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 8:54:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.laserdisc (More info?)

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:54:16 GMT, NEWman
<koREMOVETHISteANDTHIStsu@libero.it> wrote:

>
>I
>I WAS IN ERROR IN SUPPOSING THAT THE ELABORATION OF THE SIGNAL INSIDE
>THE LD UNIT WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE IN DIGITAL COMPONENT FORM.
>
>

What you were asking for is to have a complete colour demodulator in a
laserdisc player. The unit would have to have tint and saturation
controls, and since the sync level for laserdiscs vary there'd have to
be a complete proc amp to accurately match the levels from the DVD
side. And this is in a budget unit (which the DVL909 is) and for the
purpose of providing redundant functionality (The tv does all this.)

.. Steve ..
!