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homemade power conditioner?

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April 8, 2004 8:18:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

I am in need of a power conditioner for my home recording studio. I was
wondering if I could use some of the components I already have. I want to
run my equipment off of an inverter, which would be connected to a 12volt
battery, which would be constantly charged by a battery charger. Has anyone
done this? Is it a logical way to get clean power?
Anonymous
April 8, 2004 8:18:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

Joe wrote:
>
> I am in need of a power conditioner for my home recording studio. I was
> wondering if I could use some of the components I already have. I want to
> run my equipment off of an inverter, which would be connected to a 12volt
> battery, which would be constantly charged by a battery charger. Has anyone
> done this? Is it a logical way to get clean power?

Probably not. The most important factor for an audio setup is that
the line waveform have little high frequency distortion that might
bleed through to audio signals and also a good, clean ground. The
exact magnitude of line voltage is not very important. A good line
filter or shielded isolation transformer with a clean downstream
ground might be nice.

A regulating transformer (Sola ferroresonant) might be good upstream
of AC motor driven devices like tape drives and turn tables. But good
quality motor driven devices do not depend on the line frequency or
voltage, anyway.

Inverters generally make high frequency noise that gets into signals
and grounds.

--
John Popelish
Anonymous
April 8, 2004 8:18:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

Joe wrote:
> I am in need of a power conditioner for my home recording studio. I was
> wondering if I could use some of the components I already have. I want to
> run my equipment off of an inverter, which would be connected to a 12volt
> battery, which would be constantly charged by a battery charger. Has anyone
> done this? Is it a logical way to get clean power?
>
>
Yikes! Unless the inverter has some excellent conditioning built in
thats a VERY bad way to get power. The inverter output is full of
spikes and the waveform will be poor.
The best bang for the buck would be an old Sola type constant voltage
transformer. No electronic components, no moving parts, good isolation,
waveform will be good enough for modern electonics, etc. Big and heavy
but no so much compared to a 12 volt battery and inverter.
An outfit in Chicago? called Shape Electronics is a major manufacturer
of these nowadays. You'd be hard pressed to damage one with a surge or
have a spike get thru it.

-Bill
Related resources
April 8, 2004 10:34:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

exray wrote:

> Joe wrote:
>
>> I am in need of a power conditioner for my home recording studio. I was
>> wondering if I could use some of the components I already have. I
>> want to
>> run my equipment off of an inverter, which would be connected to a 12volt
>> battery, which would be constantly charged by a battery charger. Has
>> anyone
>> done this? Is it a logical way to get clean power?
>>
>>
> Yikes! Unless the inverter has some excellent conditioning built in
> thats a VERY bad way to get power.

That's how some UPSs work.

The inverter output is full of
> spikes and the waveform will be poor.

You can't tell without details. Some are excellent, and others are
poor. There may be a correlation with price.

> The best bang for the buck would be an old Sola type constant voltage
> transformer. No electronic components, no moving parts, good isolation,
> waveform will be good enough for modern electonics, etc. Big and heavy
> but no so much compared to a 12 volt battery and inverter.
> An outfit in Chicago? called Shape Electronics is a major manufacturer
> of these nowadays. You'd be hard pressed to damage one with a surge or
> have a spike get thru it.
>
> -Bill


--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form che...@prodigy.net.
Anonymous
April 8, 2004 11:37:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

Occasionally you will see Hewlett Packard (or now Agilent) A.C. power
supplies on EBay -- there is a separate power supply section under test
equipment.

When I was in college we powered some of the "quiet room" physics equipment
from an a.c. line which was driven by a MacIntosh tube amplifier. This gave
a very quiet and regulated sine wave to drive some of the instrumentation.

"Joe" <res04854@gte.net> wrote in message
news:Io4dc.11301$hd3.11019@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> I am in need of a power conditioner for my home recording studio. I was
> wondering if I could use some of the components I already have. I want to
> run my equipment off of an inverter, which would be connected to a 12volt
> battery, which would be constantly charged by a battery charger. Has
anyone
> done this? Is it a logical way to get clean power?
>
>
Anonymous
April 8, 2004 12:09:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

CJT wrote:
> exray wrote:
>
>> Joe wrote:
>>
>>> anyone
>>> done this? Is it a logical way to get clean power?
>>>
>>>
>> Yikes! Unless the inverter has some excellent conditioning built in
>> thats a VERY bad way to get power.
>
>
> That's how some UPSs work.

Exactly.
>
> The inverter output is full of
>
>> spikes and the waveform will be poor.
>
>
> You can't tell without details. Some are excellent, and others are
> poor. There may be a correlation with price.

No question about it. The OP was aking about homebrewing and if that
was a logical approach.

I'd stick with the constant voltage transformer.

-Bill M
Anonymous
April 8, 2004 1:52:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

John Popelish <jpopelish@rica.net> writes:

> Inverters generally make high frequency noise that gets into signals
> and grounds.

Amen.

Glad to hear this mentioned because not 10 seconds ago, I unplugged my
laptop computer power to get rid of the annoying high pitched
beeping-like subtle noise that I finally isolated as a ground loop
that was coming through my computer speakers.

My computer speakers are plugged into the wall and take 2 inputs--one
from my PC running off an APC Back Ups Pro UPS, and the other from the
laptop which is plugged into the wall. While plugging all 3 in the
UPS doesn't seem to fix it (likely due to a peripheral hanging off the
PC plugged into the wall), unplugging either one of the PC's audio to
the speakers fixes it, or unplugging power from the laptop does the
trick too.

Anyone know of any place selling 1/8" stereo inline isolation
transformers?

Best Regards,
--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
\ / | http://www.toddh.net/
X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/
/ \ http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | "4 lines suffice."
Anonymous
April 8, 2004 1:52:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

Todd H. wrote:

> John Popelish <jpopelish@rica.net> writes:


>>Inverters generally make high frequency noise that gets into signals
>>and grounds.


> Amen.

> Glad to hear this mentioned because not 10 seconds ago, I unplugged my
> laptop computer power to get rid of the annoying high pitched
> beeping-like subtle noise that I finally isolated as a ground loop
> that was coming through my computer speakers.

> My computer speakers are plugged into the wall and take 2 inputs--one
> from my PC running off an APC Back Ups Pro UPS, and the other from the
> laptop which is plugged into the wall. While plugging all 3 in the
> UPS doesn't seem to fix it (likely due to a peripheral hanging off the
> PC plugged into the wall), unplugging either one of the PC's audio to
> the speakers fixes it, or unplugging power from the laptop does the
> trick too.

> Anyone know of any place selling 1/8" stereo inline isolation
> transformers?

Well, Radio Scrap has (or had) an isolation transformer for auto apps,
which should also work in this case. But it seems to me that it would
be better to isolate the actual noise, which might be coming from the
wall wart or power brick that charges your laptop battery.

You might try putting a big electrolytic, like a 4700 uF, across the
power from the batt charger. Just to see what happens.

> Best Regards,
Anonymous
April 8, 2004 1:59:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

In article <Io4dc.11301$hd3.11019@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>,
Joe <res04854@gte.net> wrote:
>I am in need of a power conditioner for my home recording studio. I was
>wondering if I could use some of the components I already have. I want to
>run my equipment off of an inverter, which would be connected to a 12volt
>battery, which would be constantly charged by a battery charger. Has anyone
>done this? Is it a logical way to get clean power?

Why do you need a power conditioner? What is the problem you are trying
to solve?

Most inverters will produce MUCH worse waveforms than the power line, and
you will have bigtime noise issues trying to run off of them. You can get
some true sine wave inverters that have very low distortion, but they are
not cheap or efficient.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
April 8, 2004 4:00:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

bmiawmb@toddh.net (Todd H.) wrote:
>Anyone know of any place selling 1/8" stereo inline isolation
>transformers?

WalMart has them for cars, so you'll need Phono-to-headphone adapters.
Worked wonders for fixing the ground loop problem my iPod had with my
AUX input in my car...

--
William Smith
ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc. www.compusmiths.com
Anonymous
April 8, 2004 6:10:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

Joe wrote:

> I am in need of a power conditioner for my home recording studio. I
> was wondering if I could use some of the components I already have.
> I want to run my equipment off of an inverter, which would be
> connected to a 12volt battery, which would be constantly charged by a
> battery charger. Has anyone done this? Is it a logical way to get
> clean power?

First make sure that you have bad power. This device will give you a number
of objective clues:

http://www.smarthome.com/9034.html
Anonymous
April 8, 2004 6:39:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

In sci.electronics.basics Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:

| In article <Io4dc.11301$hd3.11019@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>,
| Joe <res04854@gte.net> wrote:
|>I am in need of a power conditioner for my home recording studio. I was
|>wondering if I could use some of the components I already have. I want to
|>run my equipment off of an inverter, which would be connected to a 12volt
|>battery, which would be constantly charged by a battery charger. Has anyone
|>done this? Is it a logical way to get clean power?
|
| Why do you need a power conditioner? What is the problem you are trying
| to solve?
|
| Most inverters will produce MUCH worse waveforms than the power line, and
| you will have bigtime noise issues trying to run off of them. You can get
| some true sine wave inverters that have very low distortion, but they are
| not cheap or efficient.

What would you recommend to get a nice clean pure sine wave, with no spikes
or other high frequency hash, and is also locked tight to a frequency standard
(unlike the utility power which has the liberty to tweak the frequency when
demand is too high). This will need to also have backup capability, which
might be for an extended period of time, which means a generator may be the
source of power at times.

Note: I'm not the original poster of this thread, but I have a similar
interest.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous
April 8, 2004 6:39:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

In article <c53o7611n4s@news4.newsguy.com>, <phil-news-nospam@ipal.net> wrote:
>
>What would you recommend to get a nice clean pure sine wave, with no spikes
>or other high frequency hash, and is also locked tight to a frequency standard
>(unlike the utility power which has the liberty to tweak the frequency when
>demand is too high). This will need to also have backup capability, which
>might be for an extended period of time, which means a generator may be the
>source of power at times.

What kind of load, and why do you need frequency stability? For most
equipment, frequency stability is a non-issue.

I can recommend the Best and Liebert online UPS systems. The 12KVA and
larger units can be slaved to an external reference oscillator if you
really need stability, and they can be specified to under 2% line distortion.
The Invensys BPIII Industrial is a good choice if you need more than 100 KVA.

If you need better than 2% distortion and only have small loads, Abacus
Controls, KGS Electronics, and Industrial Test Equipment, Inc. all make
stabilized AC supplies. Count on closer to $10/watt, though, as opposed
to around $1/watt for the cheaper Best and Liebert gear.

We replaced our 400 Hz motor-generator set systems with a bunch of the
smaller Abacus Controls boxes, and they are phenomenally more convenient.
No poking, no prodding, no calling down to the basement to fire the converter
up in the morning.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
April 8, 2004 6:39:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
>What would you recommend to get a nice clean pure sine wave, with no spikes
>or other high frequency hash, and is also locked tight to a frequency standard
>(unlike the utility power which has the liberty to tweak the frequency when
>demand is too high). This will need to also have backup capability, which
>might be for an extended period of time, which means a generator may be the
>source of power at times.
>
>Note: I'm not the original poster of this thread, but I have a similar
>interest.

Wow, that's a lot of requirements, I'd revisit them first to see if
what I was trying to do could be done in a more economical fashion.
In a brute-force kinda world, you'd end up with one of the HP AC
sources that John was talking about, running off a separate UPS, with
a backup generator, but that's a whole ton of money compared to (for
instance) running your device off batteries and using a real frequency
standard for the parts that care about that.

--
William Smith
ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc. www.compusmiths.com
Anonymous
April 8, 2004 6:39:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
>
> What would you recommend to get a nice clean pure sine wave, with no spikes
> or other high frequency hash, and is also locked tight to a frequency standard
> (unlike the utility power which has the liberty to tweak the frequency when
> demand is too high). This will need to also have backup capability, which
> might be for an extended period of time, which means a generator may be the
> source of power at times.

With the frequency requirement, you're basically looking at a double conversion online UPS--whether prepackaged or soemthing you piece together.

Toshiba makes excellent medium-sized UPSs with low distortion output http://www.tic.toshiba.com/productgroups.php?family=UPS
Oneac makes smaller units that are also very clean http://www.oneac.com/pdf/917161b1.pdf

Exeltech makes low distortion inverters as small as 125 Watts and for a wide range of DC inputs http://www.exeltech.com/ If you need very long runtime, it can be much cheaper to build your own solution with telecom batteries and charging plus one of these.
Anonymous
April 8, 2004 6:39:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> In article <c53o7611n4s@news4.newsguy.com>, <phil-news-nospam@ipal.net> wrote:

>>What would you recommend to get a nice clean pure sine wave, with no spikes
>>or other high frequency hash, and is also locked tight to a frequency standard
>>(unlike the utility power which has the liberty to tweak the frequency when
>>demand is too high). This will need to also have backup capability, which
>>might be for an extended period of time, which means a generator may be the
>>source of power at times.


> What kind of load, and why do you need frequency stability? For most
> equipment, frequency stability is a non-issue.

> I can recommend the Best and Liebert online UPS systems. The 12KVA and
> larger units can be slaved to an external reference oscillator if you
> really need stability, and they can be specified to under 2% line distortion.
> The Invensys BPIII Industrial is a good choice if you need more than 100 KVA.

> If you need better than 2% distortion and only have small loads, Abacus
> Controls, KGS Electronics, and Industrial Test Equipment, Inc. all make
> stabilized AC supplies. Count on closer to $10/watt, though, as opposed
> to around $1/watt for the cheaper Best and Liebert gear.

> We replaced our 400 Hz motor-generator set systems with a bunch of the
> smaller Abacus Controls boxes, and they are phenomenally more convenient.
> No poking, no prodding, no calling down to the basement to fire the converter
> up in the morning.
> --scott

We had a 80kVA Exide UPS for our computer room, then replaced it with a
150kVA Exide, that we have today.

We need to get a couple 2 to 3 kVA UPSes for some PBXes, and we've been
using Fortress and APCs lately. Are there any better UPSes out there?
The PBX uses a ferroresonant transformer in the constant voltage 48VDC
PS. If that makes any diff.
Anonymous
April 8, 2004 6:54:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

Watson A.Name "Watt Sun - the Dark Remover" wrote:
>
> We need to get a couple 2 to 3 kVA UPSes for some PBXes, and we've been
> using Fortress and APCs lately. Are there any better UPSes out there?
> The PBX uses a ferroresonant transformer in the constant voltage 48VDC
> PS. If that makes any diff.

With the FRT, you won't need super-low distortion AC and you won't need zero-dropout switching, so a standby UPS would probably work fine.

Why not just replace or augment the -48V system with something bigger & newer? You wouldn't believe how much -48V overstock and surplus stuff out there from the dotbomb & telecom busts.

Where are you located? I can probably find you a turnkey solution from a bonded vendor if you want...
Anonymous
April 8, 2004 7:49:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

Watson A.Name \"Watt Sun - the Dark Remover\" <alondra101@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>We had a 80kVA Exide UPS for our computer room, then replaced it with a
>150kVA Exide, that we have today.
>
>We need to get a couple 2 to 3 kVA UPSes for some PBXes, and we've been
>using Fortress and APCs lately. Are there any better UPSes out there?
>The PBX uses a ferroresonant transformer in the constant voltage 48VDC
>PS. If that makes any diff.

If you have a ferroresonant transformer there, you don't really need a good
waveform on the input, but you do need pretty good frequency regulation.
You can also live with dropouts as a result, too, so you can probably get
away with a cheaper standby UPS without any trouble.

Somebody has nicked the BEST catalogue from my office and I don't remember
the name of their line of cheap standby UPS systems without isolation.
It's one line below the Ferrups stuff. I think that's about where you should
be looking because it's no sense spending money for capability you don't need.
You should make sure that it will be happy driving the ferroresonant
transformer, though, which will be a weird load. Get the power factor off
the PBX supply and make sure the UPS is reated for it.

I've had some bad experiences with the APC stuff and had some trouble
getting APC to make good on their guarantees.

Most of the other stuff I am familiar with are online systems, which you
really don't need.

Have you considered just floating a 48V battery off the rails? It would
seem a lot cheaper to just provide the battery backup on the 48V side
rather than on the AC input. You might want to check Power Conversion
Products at www.pcp.com for telco power stuff.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
April 8, 2004 9:56:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

In article <Io4dc.11301$hd3.11019@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>,
Joe <res04854@gte.net> wrote:
>I am in need of a power conditioner for my home recording studio. I was
>wondering if I could use some of the components I already have. I want to
>run my equipment off of an inverter, which would be connected to a 12volt
>battery, which would be constantly charged by a battery charger. Has anyone
>done this? Is it a logical way to get clean power?

This sounds like a great waste of energy, both human and electrical.
Is your AC line really that bad? Professional audio equipment works
just fine with normal power company AC power.

The only thing I'd recommend is using a UPS if you'll operate a DAW
and you don't want to deal with short outages and glitches. The APC
SmartUPS sine wave output models are pretty good for this use. I bill
out time on my rig, and having a UPS prevents downtime, which saves
everyone.

Aside from that, the power conditioning setup you describe sounds like
a potentially dangerous, expensive waste of time, energy and money.
Unless of course, you have some real problem with utility power that
I'd be interested in hearing about so we can suggest a workable
solution.


Regards,

Monte McGuire
mcguire@TheWorld.com
Anonymous
April 8, 2004 9:56:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

Monte P McGuire wrote:
>
> The only thing I'd recommend is using a UPS if you'll operate a DAW
> and you don't want to deal with short outages and glitches. The APC
> SmartUPS sine wave output models are pretty good for this use. I bill
> out time on my rig, and having a UPS prevents downtime, which saves
> everyone.

They do the job and at a very reasonable price, but their output waveform is still pretty noisy. Stick a 'scope across the line and yank the plug sometime...

Best and Oneac both make small UPSes with clean outputs.
Anonymous
April 9, 2004 5:33:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

"Joe" <res04854@gte.net> wrote in message
news:Io4dc.11301$hd3.11019@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> I am in need of a power conditioner for my home recording studio. I was
> wondering if I could use some of the components I already have. I want to
> run my equipment off of an inverter, which would be connected to a 12volt
> battery, which would be constantly charged by a battery charger. Has
anyone
> done this? Is it a logical way to get clean power?
>
Any inverter you could afford puts out an MFM (modified square wave) output.
This is an enormous source of noise, much more than on a power line.
Anonymous
April 9, 2004 5:35:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:c54acp$krl$1@panix2.panix.com...
> Watson A.Name \"Watt Sun - the Dark Remover\" <alondra101@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> >
> >We had a 80kVA Exide UPS for our computer room, then replaced it with a
> >150kVA Exide, that we have today.
> >
> >We need to get a couple 2 to 3 kVA UPSes for some PBXes, and we've been
> >using Fortress and APCs lately. Are there any better UPSes out there?
> >The PBX uses a ferroresonant transformer in the constant voltage 48VDC
> >PS. If that makes any diff.
>
> If you have a ferroresonant transformer there, you don't really need a
good
> waveform on the input, but you do need pretty good frequency regulation.
> You can also live with dropouts as a result, too, so you can probably get
> away with a cheaper standby UPS without any trouble.
>
Depends on whether it's sine-wave neutralized.
Sola makes both CVS and CVN. The CVN's put out a flat-topped waveform.
Anonymous
April 9, 2004 6:09:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

In article <1081450766.765131@nnrp2.phx1.gblx.net>,
Kurt Albershardt <kurt@nv.net> wrote:
>Monte P McGuire wrote:
>>
>> The only thing I'd recommend is using a UPS if you'll operate a DAW
>> and you don't want to deal with short outages and glitches. The APC
>> SmartUPS sine wave output models are pretty good for this use. I bill
>> out time on my rig, and having a UPS prevents downtime, which saves
>> everyone.
>
>They do the job and at a very reasonable price, but their output waveform is still pretty noisy. Stick a
>'scope across the line and yank the plug sometime...
>
>Best and Oneac both make small UPSes with clean outputs.

I'l have to take a look.. Still, this level of noise seems to have no
effect on my gear. I use it mostly to prevent downtime on my computer
in the event of random power glitches and it works pretty well so far.
I also use it to power the analog and digital stuff in the recording
path (but not the monitor path) so that if I'm tracking and I get a
brief glitch, nothing bad happens. So far, the noise from the
SmartUPS hasn't been a problem.


Regards,

Monte McGuire
mcguire@TheWorld.com
Anonymous
April 9, 2004 2:45:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

Monte P McGuire <mcguire@TheWorld.com> wrote:
>In article <1081450766.765131@nnrp2.phx1.gblx.net>,
>Kurt Albershardt <kurt@nv.net> wrote:
>>Monte P McGuire wrote:
>>>
>>> The only thing I'd recommend is using a UPS if you'll operate a DAW
>>> and you don't want to deal with short outages and glitches. The APC
>>> SmartUPS sine wave output models are pretty good for this use. I bill
>>> out time on my rig, and having a UPS prevents downtime, which saves
>>> everyone.
>>
>>They do the job and at a very reasonable price, but their output waveform is still pretty noisy. Stick a
>>'scope across the line and yank the plug sometime...
>>
>>Best and Oneac both make small UPSes with clean outputs.
>
>I'l have to take a look.. Still, this level of noise seems to have no
>effect on my gear. I use it mostly to prevent downtime on my computer
>in the event of random power glitches and it works pretty well so far.
>I also use it to power the analog and digital stuff in the recording
>path (but not the monitor path) so that if I'm tracking and I get a
>brief glitch, nothing bad happens. So far, the noise from the
>SmartUPS hasn't been a problem.

This is because you have equipment with properly designed power supplies
that have good isolation from line noise. Plug a cheap preamp with a
wall wart into that thing and you'll have a very different experience.

This is, incidentally, another good argument against cheap gear with wall
warts.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
April 9, 2004 2:57:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

Robert Morein <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote:
>"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
>news:c54acp$krl$1@panix2.panix.com...
>> Watson A.Name \"Watt Sun - the Dark Remover\" <alondra101@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>> >
>> >We had a 80kVA Exide UPS for our computer room, then replaced it with a
>> >150kVA Exide, that we have today.
>> >
>> >We need to get a couple 2 to 3 kVA UPSes for some PBXes, and we've been
>> >using Fortress and APCs lately. Are there any better UPSes out there?
>> >The PBX uses a ferroresonant transformer in the constant voltage 48VDC
>> >PS. If that makes any diff.
>>
>> If you have a ferroresonant transformer there, you don't really need a
>good
>> waveform on the input, but you do need pretty good frequency regulation.
>> You can also live with dropouts as a result, too, so you can probably get
>> away with a cheaper standby UPS without any trouble.
>>
>Depends on whether it's sine-wave neutralized.
>Sola makes both CVS and CVN. The CVN's put out a flat-topped waveform.

We're talking about the _input_ waveform here, not the output waveform.
Clearly the output waveform is just fine, otherwise he'd be having trouble.
The guy has an existing ferroresonant transformer supply, and he wants to
put a UPS in front of it.

What I am saying is that you can feed a lousy waveform _into_ the
ferroresonant transformer and it will behave perfectly well.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
April 9, 2004 8:10:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

"Joe" wrote

> I am in need of a power conditioner for my home
> recording studio.
>
Power conditioner is a very generic term.

Nigel's Power Line Conditioner Info Sheet
(C) 2000

V 1.15
This document may be copied so long as it is copied in it's
entirety, including copyright, and so long as it is not posted to
rec.audio.high-end

Sections:

I. What IS a Power Line Conditioner?
II. Why do I NEED/WANT one?
III. HTML Links
IV. Specific Products & Technology
V. Cheap Tweaks for the Dangerously Inclined
VI. Closing Comments

I. What IS a Power Line Conditioner?
=====================================
Before there was such a market for high end tweaks and buzz words in high
end audio/video companies like APCC & Tripplite among many others were
already making power conditioners for the computer and electronics industry.
These devices are still made and they are used to provide voltage regulation
for devices like copiers. They used transformers with multiple taps, and as
the input voltage surges or sags the relays or transistors in the power
conditioner would switch among the different transformer taps. I thought
Tice
or Audio Power made a similar device, but I seem to be mistaken. Two good
sources of non- esoteric power line conditioners are www.furmasound.com
and www.equitech.com. Pretty good looking stuff if you have common
surge/sagging problems.

Today there are many things called a line conditioner, and they are not all
the same. In general a power line conditioner can be everything from a
power strip with surge protection to larger, beefy boxes that do a variety
of things to the incoming AC power.

A line conditioner may have some features to do the following:

1. Filter the AC signal so you get closer to
an ideal 60 Hz signal.
2. Provide surge protection
3. Provide Under / Over voltage protection
(turns off)
4. Provide Under / Over voltage regulation
(keeps the output voltage constant)
5. Provide power outage protection
(like an Uninterruptable Power Supply)
6. Provide a lower apparent impedance to the source
(like PS Audio, Elgar, etc.)

Different products work differently, and will have different feature mixes.
The heavier, the more you are paying for, so beleive it or not the cost per
pound is a good indicator of how much is going into the product, and a
good guage of how much you should be paying for it. If you just spent
$1,300 on a power strip you can pick up with your pinky, you paid too
much. Articles in Hi Fi News and Record Review (a brit mag) in 1998-99
give some insight into building your own.

Alas not all filtration is the same. Products which claim to filter RFI/EMI
only start to work at around 100 kHz or higher, which is far above human
audibility. The theoretically ideal power line filter would filter out all
signals below and above 60 Hz.

II. Why do I NEED/WANT one?
============================
II.a: NEEDS
Unless you suffer from chronic over/under voltages at your house then
chances are you don't really need a power conditioner, the system will work
reliably without it.

You may very well find that surge protection is important to you. Check out
the separate "Nigel's Surge Supression Info Sheet".

If you're buying some fancy power line conditioner that is supposed to
include surge protection, ask them if the equipment has been certified to
UL 1449 Second Edition. I have yet to see an audio equipment
"Conditioner" manufacturer that claims surge supression publish any
sort of UL or CSA listing on their web site, so be careful about relying on
them for surge supression. This does not include Monster Cable's strips,
they are primarily a surge supressor, with noise filters added, and are in
fact UL 1449 certified.

II.b: WANTS
Audio/videophiles WANT power conditioners because they feel it will improve
the quality of their listening or viewing experience. How much of an
audible or visible difference a power line conditioner will make in your
world depends on the following:

1. The quality of your incoming AC power.
2. The quality of your components power supplies.
3. The resolution of your system
(Fix your room acoustics first, then
worry about power line issues)
4. The effectiveness & features of the
line conditioner.
5. How much noise the line conditioner itself
actually creates
(a potential problem in a UPS)
6. What frequencies the power conditioner's filtration
is effective at.
7. Your gullibility

An example of exceptional power supply design is found in much of Krell and
Mark Levinson equipment some of which use fully regulated, fully balanced
power supplies. This is a rare thing, but any potential benefit from a
power conditioner may be a mute point with this
equipment. Most amplifiers use unregulated, but highly filtered power
supplies, relying on the incoming AC voltage remaining constant, and large
capacitors to reduce any noise on the line.

II.c: WON'Ts
One thing most line conditioners don't do is fix ground loop problems (i.e.
a loud 60 Hz hum you hear coming from your speakers), in some cases they
can actually make things worse by improving the connection to ground of
your equipment. The ideal way to fix a ground loop problem is to use signal
level isolation transformers between your system and the source of the
problem, which is often the cable TV or a computer connection. Check out:

www.jensentransformers.com

for a variety of safe solutions. Otherwise, if you want to start a fire or
electrocute yourself or your family, use a 2-3 prong adaptor, a.k.a. a
cheater plug.

There is one exception to this. Power conditioners that provide balanced
outputs may reduce ground loop related hums, as well as provide a good
lowering of the overall noise floor.

Also, power conditioners should not be used to substitute for bad electrical
wiring. In some cases a power conditioner may make things worse, drawing
more current and stressing the existing wiring. You should NEVER over fuse

wiring.

III. HTML Links
================
Here is a variety of links to people selling things that go between your
equipment and the incoming AC line.

www.apcc.com
www.audiopower.com
www.accuphase.com
www.belkin.com
www.bestpower.com
www.brickwall.com
www.elgar.com
www.equitech.com
www.furmasound.com
www.monstercable.com
www.psaudio.com
www.surgex.com
www.ticeaudio.com
www.tripplite.com
www.vansevers.com

You should also check the links from www.stereophile.com which
seem to be pretty exhaustive, and mention many more manufacturer links
to audio related power line products than I do here. Be warned however
that while the list at Stereophile may be more comprehensive than mine,
it's less discriminating, and includes some products I feel provide
particularly poor return on investment.

IV. Products & Technology
==========================
Some products merit special attention in my book, for a variety of reasons.

Monster Cable
=============
Despite having the WORST web site in all of audio regarding technology, with
gross technical and gramatical errors, several people have sent me e-mails
defending their power strips, claiming they made improvements in picture or
video quality. Heck if I know, but you might want to, they're not too
expensive.

Panamax
=======
Panamax gets special because they do have complete A/V surge protection
solutions their parts quality does not usually merit what they charge, like
$99 for a standard surge strip, and I've read of reliability and warranty
problems online, so you should check the archives at
www.deja.com. In my opinion APCC, Triplite and Belkin all give you
more surge protection/dollar than Panamax.

The Panamax DBS+ I have (got a deal on it) has failed to protect my two
satelite receivers from wind related static discharge , so I'm not too happy
with them these dayas.

Brickwall & Zerosurge
=====================
Working on a completely different principle of surge protection than MOV
based surge protectors are the models from Brick Wall and
ZeroSurge. They are basically single pole low pass filters ( a good thing )
for your power lines. The claimed response is -3db at 3 kHz. This
effectively limits the maximum Volts/Second. When a surge hits, it becomes
a 2nd and 3rd order low pass filter. Surgex also OEM's these devices, or
licenses the technology.

This low start point for their noise filtration puts them into both my Line
Conditioner sheet as well as my Surge Protection sheet.

Audo Power & Tice
=================
Moving closer to the ideal of a power line conditioner are the ones that
use isolation transformers. These have a much better capacity to remove
audible power line noise than mere surge strips. Audio Power & Tice have
a variety of products you should take a listen to, if you can get past
Tice's
voodoo web pages (i.e. their Q&A section). Note that not all these
products use isolation transformers, so check to be sure what you're
getting.

Richard Gray's Power Company
============================
Tremendous hype on their web site is parroted almost word for word by
dealers and customers. Their web site and "Grey Paper" fails to make any
truly technical statements about what the product does and IMHO they offer
poor return on investment, considering the parts that actually go into them,
and that they sell for around $700. I would encourage people to either
spend another $300 for a PS Audio unit, or spend less for something from
Furmasound or Equitech, or even getting a power conditioner (not a UPS)
from APC or Tripp Lite instead of buying a product from this company.

PS Audio
========
New are the Power Plant models from PS Audio. PS Audio has taken the
high road, and said electrical bill be damned! We'll get clean power no
matter the cost. The Power Plant models are basically power amplifiers
that re-create the 115 Volt AC signal at their output. They are perhaps the
most ambitious designs I've seen so far and again have some good ideas
behind them. Their prices seem very reasonable, considering how much
goes into one and the current offerings of power conditioners in the
market, and they certainly should be able to meet their twin goals of:

Greatly reducing apparent power line impedance

- AND -

Greatly reducing power line noise and distortion

The technology used may very well be the best at doing those two things
in combination.

Since the Power Plants are essentially class AB amplifiers they are no
better than 50% efficient, so expect it to add additional heat and
electrical current draw to your electric circuit, which is something to pay
attention to if you're close to being overloading it already. On the other
hand, using a linear (AB) amplifier stage removes the likelihood of
more digital noise being introduced into the 60 Hz waveform it
generates.

If the PS Audio units don't have enough current capacity, consider the
products from Elgar, sweeet....way expensive! If you have money to burn,
perhaps you should consider an Elgar as a pre-conditioner, and use a PS
Audio unit for your source components only.

Other equipment manufacturers should also take note that unlike many sites
PS Audio's web site was delightfully free of bovine scatalogical samples.

Chang Lightspeed
================
Chang Lightspeed need comments on because of their on-line
advertising which demonizes coils & transformers. They're right about
small, poorly designed coils actually increasing the power line
impedance, however what they fail to note is that by going coilless their
conditioners may very well not be able to remove any power line noise
within the audible spectrum. This noise is the most important to
audiophiles are concerned with as it has the best chance of being
propagated through the power supplies of the equipment and finally
to our ears. Perhaps this is why their on-line advertising mentions
RFI/EMI noise reduction so much, and makes no mention of audio
frequency noise reduction. Coil impedance can be overcome by using
bigger and better inductors.

Does anyone know how much these puppies weigh? I bet you they're
lighter and are less expensive to manufacture than comparative
products from manufacturers who DO use coils in their designs.

Uninterruptable Power Supplies
==============================
A UPS is a must for anyone doing serious computer work, but it's benefits
for audiophiles will vary. If you're going to try a UPS to improve the
sound / picture quality then avoid the standby kind, which have a 2-4 ms
lag before they turn on. Get one labeled "line interactive."

Because UPS's are designed for computers they usually pay little attention
to how much grunge is coming out when they generate the output
waveform, which could in turn easily make your system sound worse,
not better. The solution is to make sure the output of your UPS is a sine
wave, with the lowest possible distortion and noise. So, avoid "stepped
aproximation" and look for "pure sinewave" output.

Lastly, most UPS have a relatively loose voltage regulation. For example,
as the input voltage varies from 90 to 145 volts the UPS will output from
105 to 125 volts. It's a smaller variation than what's coming in, and it's
certainly better than any passive conditioners like Audio Power or Tice but
it's certainly not the best technology could do if money were no object.

Radio Shack
===========
Yes, RS can be an audiophiles best friend, especially when he/she is
looking for a $20 voltage meter. If you think you have a chronic voltage
problem at your home or listening room outlets go get a meter and find
out. If it's bad enough, perhaps you should start with a phone call to your
electrical company and/or electrician before getting a voltage conditioner.

V. Cheap Tweaks for the Dangerously Inclined
=============================================
One potential improvement audiophiles can make, fairly easily if they are
electronically and dangerously inclined, is to increase the power supply
filter capacitance. You can do this both by replacing the current storage
capacitors to higher values of capacitance (and equal or better voltages)
and also by adding storage capacitance across the maximum + and -
voltage rails of the device (make sure the capacitor's voltage rating is
greater than the difference between the + and - rails, of course). While
we're going there, consider also replacing the filter caps with less
inductive versions if possible such as caps from Sanyo or Panasonic
(I think, sorry, it's been a while since I was opening data books so check
this out yourself) as well as adding polypropelyne or polystyrene
capacitors of equal or greater voltage rating in parallel with any upgrades
you do.

Be careful with how much capacitance you add, adding capacitance
increases the turn on (inrush) current and may over-stress the bridge
rectifier. Of course, the fix for this is to add a bigger rectifier so you
can get
more power! (Grunt grunt!) And if you fry your transforer too, well that can
be fixed as well!

This little tweak alone can greatly increase the S/N ratio of many mass
market electronic devices far more than other tweaks, such as new power
cables. If you already have a very good power supply it won't matter much
as if you didn't (i.e. it will make a bigger difference for mass market Sony
or Yamaha than Krell or Mark Levinson).

I won't go into any more detail than this, if you have to ask chances are
you shouldn't be in there anyway. Oh, yeah, and as always, if you're an
idiot and hurt yourself or your equipment don't call me, have your mama
call me so I can tell her what a dufus you are.

VI. Closing Comments
=====================
I don't mean to exclude anyone, so if I missed you or a product you feel
deserves special mention send an e-mail to nigel_tufnel@my- deja.com
and I'll add it onto this growing and improving list.

As always, thoughtful, informative discussions are encouraged,
corrections are gladly accepted, and flames may be sent to
hellen@wait.com. It's your ears, eyes and wallet you're trying to
please. Advice from anyone is a good way to start but it's your hard
earned dollar so you should always be the final judge of a products
worth.
Anonymous
April 9, 2004 8:55:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

>
> Anyone know of any place selling 1/8" stereo inline isolation
> transformers?
>
> Best Regards,


The best solution is to convert to balanced audio, interface to the next
audio component, then convert back to unbalanced.

I have this hum problem too with a large sound system that's on another
outlet circuit having a ground loop with the PC audio. Unbalanced is prone
to this. Using an un-balanced to balanced converter between PC and audio
hardware, then balanced to un-balanced at the audio amplifier solves this
particular problem. I wish more audio devices used balanced ins and outs.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-
Anonymous
April 9, 2004 8:55:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

"Mark & Mary Ann Weiss" <mweissX294@earthlink.net> writes:
> >
> > Anyone know of any place selling 1/8" stereo inline isolation
> > transformers?
> >
> > Best Regards,
>
>
> The best solution is to convert to balanced audio, interface to the next
> audio component, then convert back to unbalanced.
>
> I have this hum problem too with a large sound system that's on another
> outlet circuit having a ground loop with the PC audio. Unbalanced is prone
> to this. Using an un-balanced to balanced converter between PC and audio
> hardware, then balanced to un-balanced at the audio amplifier solves this
> particular problem. I wish more audio devices used balanced ins and
> outs.

Do you have a recommenation on a balun for this use?

Best Regards,
--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
\ / | http://www.toddh.net/
X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/
/ \ http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | "4 lines suffice."
Anonymous
April 11, 2004 6:10:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in message news:<c56cv4$7lo$1@panix2.panix.com>...
> Monte P McGuire <mcguire@TheWorld.com> wrote:
> >In article <1081450766.765131@nnrp2.phx1.gblx.net>,
> >Kurt Albershardt <kurt@nv.net> wrote:
> >>Monte P McGuire wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The only thing I'd recommend is using a UPS if you'll operate a DAW
> >>> and you don't want to deal with short outages and glitches. The APC
> >>> SmartUPS sine wave output models are pretty good for this use. I bill
> >>> out time on my rig, and having a UPS prevents downtime, which saves
> >>> everyone.
> >>
> >>They do the job and at a very reasonable price, but their output waveform is still pretty noisy. Stick a
> >>'scope across the line and yank the plug sometime...
> >>
> >>Best and Oneac both make small UPSes with clean outputs.
> >
> >I'l have to take a look.. Still, this level of noise seems to have no
> >effect on my gear. I use it mostly to prevent downtime on my computer
> >in the event of random power glitches and it works pretty well so far.
> >I also use it to power the analog and digital stuff in the recording
> >path (but not the monitor path) so that if I'm tracking and I get a
> >brief glitch, nothing bad happens. So far, the noise from the
> >SmartUPS hasn't been a problem.
>
> This is because you have equipment with properly designed power supplies
> that have good isolation from line noise. Plug a cheap preamp with a
> wall wart into that thing and you'll have a very different experience.
>
> This is, incidentally, another good argument against cheap gear with wall
> warts.
> --scott


Scott

I had clean power until over a year ago. I started getting hum, hiss
and static. I checked out my facility's wiring to see if I could find
a problem---I could not, I've been told that dirty power can be caused
by something or someone miles away. I bought a Furman balanced power
supply which cleaned up the noise a bit but not much. My higher end
components like. Great river. API, Cransong and others were much less
susceptible to the noise but they weren't entirely immune either.
I was looking into sine wave generators like the ones that come on the
more expensive UPS units and output sine wave all the time -not just
when running off the batteries. Some research showed the that sine
waves are dirty but apparently the more expensive units are high
quality. I bought an APC Smart 2200UPS and all my power/noise problems
went away. I've been able to run my Trident board, a rack of pres and
FX well as my computer workstation all off of this unit. The
improvement in background noise is staggering. I have started to plug
the Furman into the UPS--is there any reason why a balanced power
suppy should not be used with a UPS that outputs sine wave??

Thanks


bob
Anonymous
April 11, 2004 3:13:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

Bob Chandler wrote:
>
> I had clean power until over a year ago. I started getting hum, hiss
> and static. I checked out my facility's wiring to see if I could find
> a problem---I could not, I've been told that dirty power can be caused
> by something or someone miles away. I bought a Furman balanced power
> supply which cleaned up the noise a bit but not much. My higher end
> components like. Great river. API, Cransong and others were much less
> susceptible to the noise but they weren't entirely immune either.
> I was looking into sine wave generators like the ones that come on the
> more expensive UPS units and output sine wave all the time -not just
> when running off the batteries. Some research showed the that sine
> waves are dirty but apparently the more expensive units are high
> quality.

Did you ever put a 'scope on the line to see what you had? Be sure to check both normal-mode and common-mode.



> I bought an APC Smart 2200UPS and all my power/noise problems
> went away. I've been able to run my Trident board, a rack of pres and
> FX well as my computer workstation all off of this unit. The
> improvement in background noise is staggering.

Last time I looked inside one, the SmartUPS series didn't have real power conditioning inside--just HF/RF filters. I'm guessing your problem was higher frequency hash of some sort.




> I have started to plug
> the Furman into the UPS--is there any reason why a balanced power
> suppy should not be used with a UPS that outputs sine wave??

Try it and see--if it buzzes a lot, your sine wave isn't so sine-like.
Anonymous
April 12, 2004 1:16:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

Bob Chandler <bassface@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>I was looking into sine wave generators like the ones that come on the
>more expensive UPS units and output sine wave all the time -not just
>when running off the batteries. Some research showed the that sine
>waves are dirty but apparently the more expensive units are high
>quality. I bought an APC Smart 2200UPS and all my power/noise problems
>went away. I've been able to run my Trident board, a rack of pres and
>FX well as my computer workstation all off of this unit. The
>improvement in background noise is staggering. I have started to plug
>the Furman into the UPS--is there any reason why a balanced power
>suppy should not be used with a UPS that outputs sine wave??

If that's what I think that is, it's a standby UPS, so the inverter
isn't actually running when the power is on. If this is the case,
then the benefit you are hearing is because the unit has a line filter
built into it, and you're just hearing the effects of the low-pass
filter removing all the line trash.

In general, this seems like a really expensive way to get line filtering,
but since you should probably have a UPS on your DAW anyway, it sounds
like a good way to go.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
April 12, 2004 5:54:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in message news:<c5cqm5$ma9$1@panix2.panix.com>...
> Bob Chandler <bassface@pacbell.net> wrote:
> >
> >I was looking into sine wave generators like the ones that come on the
> >more expensive UPS units and output sine wave all the time -not just
> >when running off the batteries. Some research showed the that sine
> >waves are dirty but apparently the more expensive units are high
> >quality. I bought an APC Smart 2200UPS and all my power/noise problems
> >went away. I've been able to run my Trident board, a rack of pres and
> >FX well as my computer workstation all off of this unit. The
> >improvement in background noise is staggering. I have started to plug
> >the Furman into the UPS--is there any reason why a balanced power
> >suppy should not be used with a UPS that outputs sine wave??
>
> If that's what I think that is, it's a standby UPS, so the inverter
> isn't actually running when the power is on. If this is the case,
> then the benefit you are hearing is because the unit has a line filter
> built into it, and you're just hearing the effects of the low-pass
> filter removing all the line trash.
>
> In general, this seems like a really expensive way to get line filtering,
> but since you should probably have a UPS on your DAW anyway, it sounds
> like a good way to go.
> --scott


No, it's not a standby unit. I made sure of that before I bought it.
Also, no hum or problems from running the furman bal power from the
UPS either. Yes---my studio is finally QUIET again.

bob
Anonymous
April 12, 2004 1:18:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

Bob Chandler wrote:

> kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in message news:<c5cqm5$ma9$1@panix2.panix.com>...
>
>>Bob Chandler <bassface@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I was looking into sine wave generators like the ones that come on the
>>> more expensive UPS units and output sine wave all the time -not just
>>> when running off the batteries. Some research showed the that sine
>>> waves are dirty but apparently the more expensive units are high
>>> quality. I bought an APC Smart 2200UPS and all my power/noise problems
>>> went away. I've been able to run my Trident board, a rack of pres and
>>> FX well as my computer workstation all off of this unit. The
>>> improvement in background noise is staggering.
>>
>> If that's what I think that is, it's a standby UPS, so the inverter
>> isn't actually running when the power is on. If this is the case,
>> then the benefit you are hearing is because the unit has a line filter
>> built into it, and you're just hearing the effects of the low-pass
>> filter removing all the line trash.
>
>
> No, it's not a standby unit. I made sure of that before I bought it.
> Also, no hum or problems from running the furman bal power from the
> UPS either. Yes---my studio is finally QUIET again.

APC calls their SmartUPS units a "Line Interactive" design. That's a fancy name for running some of their inverter circuitry backwards to charge the batteries.

It is a standby unit.
Anonymous
April 12, 2004 1:46:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

Bob Chandler <bassface@pacbell.net> wrote:
> No, it's not a standby unit. I made sure of that before I bought it.
>Also, no hum or problems from running the furman bal power from the
>UPS either. Yes---my studio is finally QUIET again.

Wait, you had a Furman balanced power box in the line and that didn't
help anything, but an online UPS does?

Curiouser and curiouser.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
April 12, 2004 5:57:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

exray <dontspamme-exray@coqui.net> wrote in message news:<1079meahrlehva9@corp.supernews.com>...
> Joe wrote:
> > I am in need of a power conditioner for my home recording studio. I was
> > wondering if I could use some of the components I already have. I want to
> > run my equipment off of an inverter, which would be connected to a 12volt
> > battery, which would be constantly charged by a battery charger. Has anyone
> > done this? Is it a logical way to get clean power?
> >
> >
> Yikes! Unless the inverter has some excellent conditioning built in
> thats a VERY bad way to get power. The inverter output is full of
> spikes and the waveform will be poor.
> The best bang for the buck would be an old Sola type constant voltage
> transformer. No electronic components, no moving parts, good isolation,
> waveform will be good enough for modern electonics, etc. Big and heavy
> but no so much compared to a 12 volt battery and inverter.
> An outfit in Chicago? called Shape Electronics is a major manufacturer
> of these nowadays. You'd be hard pressed to damage one with a surge or
> have a spike get thru it.
>
> -Bill

like this??

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=38...
Anonymous
April 12, 2004 8:25:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

In article <1081786737.902392@nnrp2.phx1.gblx.net>,
Kurt Albershardt <kurt@nv.net> wrote:
>APC calls their SmartUPS units a "Line Interactive" design. That's a fancy name for
>running some of their inverter circuitry backwards to charge the batteries.
>
>It is a standby unit.

Most definitely. The inverter is off unless Edison is down.
Undervoltages are boosted by a switchable transformer, and there's a
little extra filering added in, but it's most definitely not powering
your equipment off of battery.


Regards,

Monte McGuire
mcguire@TheWorld.com
Anonymous
April 12, 2004 9:47:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

Andy wilson wrote:

> exray <dontspamme-exray@coqui.net> wrote in message news:<1079meahrlehva9@corp.supernews.com>...
>
>>Joe wrote:
>>
>>>I am in need of a power conditioner for my home recording studio. I was
>>>wondering if I could use some of the components I already have. I want to
>>>run my equipment off of an inverter, which would be connected to a 12volt
>>>battery, which would be constantly charged by a battery charger. Has anyone
>>>done this? Is it a logical way to get clean power?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Yikes! Unless the inverter has some excellent conditioning built in
>>thats a VERY bad way to get power. The inverter output is full of
>>spikes and the waveform will be poor.
>>The best bang for the buck would be an old Sola type constant voltage
>>transformer. No electronic components, no moving parts, good isolation,
>>waveform will be good enough for modern electonics, etc. Big and heavy
>>but no so much compared to a 12 volt battery and inverter.
>>An outfit in Chicago? called Shape Electronics is a major manufacturer
>>of these nowadays. You'd be hard pressed to damage one with a surge or
>>have a spike get thru it.
>>
>>-Bill
>
>
> like this??
>
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=38...

No, not at all. Thats a simple isolation transformer, not a
ferro-resonant constant voltage xfmr.

-Bill
Anonymous
April 12, 2004 9:57:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

exray wrote:

>> like this??
>>
>> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=38...
>>
>
>
> No, not at all. Thats a simple isolation transformer, not a
> ferro-resonant constant voltage xfmr.
>
> -Bill

Example:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=...

-BM
Anonymous
April 13, 2004 1:51:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in message news:<c5e6ji$m41$1@panix2.panix.com>...
> Bob Chandler <bassface@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > No, it's not a standby unit. I made sure of that before I bought it.
> >Also, no hum or problems from running the furman bal power from the
> >UPS either. Yes---my studio is finally QUIET again.
>
> Wait, you had a Furman balanced power box in the line and that didn't
> help anything, but an online UPS does?
>
> Curiouser and curiouser.
> --scott

Yes. the Furman did very little. The UPS eliminated essentially all
the noise I was getting. Some FX units that I just assumed had a high
noise floor became much quieter too.


bob
Anonymous
April 13, 2004 1:54:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

mcguire@TheWorld.com (Monte P McGuire) wrote in message news:<c5eftd$skb$1@pcls4.std.com>...
> In article <1081786737.902392@nnrp2.phx1.gblx.net>,
> Kurt Albershardt <kurt@nv.net> wrote:
> >APC calls their SmartUPS units a "Line Interactive" design. That's a fancy name for
> >running some of their inverter circuitry backwards to charge the batteries.
> >
> >It is a standby unit.
>
> Most definitely. The inverter is off unless Edison is down.
> Undervoltages are boosted by a switchable transformer, and there's a
> little extra filering added in, but it's most definitely not powering
> your equipment off of battery.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Monte McGuire
> mcguire@TheWorld.com

I know it's not running off the batteries unless the power's down. I
said it has a sine wave output---is that not possible??


bob
Anonymous
April 13, 2004 4:11:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

In article <da316040.0404122051.1dbfab95@posting.google.com>,
Bob Chandler <bassface@pacbell.net> wrote:
>kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in message news:<c5e6ji$m41$1@panix2.panix.com>...
>> Bob Chandler <bassface@pacbell.net> wrote:
>> > No, it's not a standby unit. I made sure of that before I bought it.
>> >Also, no hum or problems from running the furman bal power from the
>> >UPS either. Yes---my studio is finally QUIET again.
>>
>> Wait, you had a Furman balanced power box in the line and that didn't
>> help anything, but an online UPS does?
>>
>> Curiouser and curiouser.
>
>Yes. the Furman did very little. The UPS eliminated essentially all
>the noise I was getting. Some FX units that I just assumed had a high
>noise floor became much quieter too.

I agree with the others that I think your UPS is really a standby unit.

But before doing anything else, you need to get a line analyzer or at least
a scope on your power line. See what is really on there and see if you can
figure out how it got there. It may be something the power company is
required to fix.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
April 13, 2004 4:13:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

Bob Chandler <bassface@pacbell.net> wrote:
>I know it's not running off the batteries unless the power's down.

That is the definition of a standby UPS as opposed to an online one.

>I said it has a sine wave output---is that not possible??

That's only important when it's running off inverter, and most of the
time it's not running off inverter. So the benefit you are getting has
nothing to do with the quality of the waveform from the inverter, it has
to do with the line filtering on the front end.

This pretty much guarantees that your problem is due to RF noise on the
power line. But what kind? And how did it get there? It isn't really
essential to know since you have a good workaround, but it would still
make me curious.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
April 14, 2004 3:41:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

In article <c5h3ek$pvt$1@panix2.panix.com>, Scott Dorsey
<kludge@panix.com> writes
>In article <da316040.0404122051.1dbfab95@posting.google.com>,
>Bob Chandler <bassface@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in message
>>news:<c5e6ji$m41$1@panix2.panix.com>...
>>> Bob Chandler <bassface@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>> > No, it's not a standby unit. I made sure of that before I bought it.
>>> >Also, no hum or problems from running the furman bal power from the
>>> >UPS either. Yes---my studio is finally QUIET again.
>>>
>>> Wait, you had a Furman balanced power box in the line and that didn't
>>> help anything, but an online UPS does?
>>>
>>> Curiouser and curiouser.
>>
>>Yes. the Furman did very little. The UPS eliminated essentially all
>>the noise I was getting. Some FX units that I just assumed had a high
>>noise floor became much quieter too.
>
>I agree with the others that I think your UPS is really a standby unit.
>
>But before doing anything else, you need to get a line analyzer or at least
>a scope on your power line. See what is really on there and see if you can
>figure out how it got there. It may be something the power company is
>required to fix.
>--scott

If consistent noise is an issue you may need to beef up your earthing.
Items with switch mode power supplies eg IT equipment, battery chargers
have high protective conductor currents. Fluorescent lighting also puts
gumph back on the mains.
/this current becomes evident as a voltage (i.e. noise floor) which
varies inversely as conductor resistance so low resistance earths help
reduce the noise.

For high quality audio such as studio gear one would generally be
thinking of a dedicated circuit from the consumer unit maybe even a
separate consumer unit.

I ran 10mm sq earths from the amp and t/table sockets to the main
earthing terminal for my hi-fi. Now clean as a whistle. I'm wiring a new
radial (branch cct in USA) circuit for hi-fi in Pirelli once the
harmonised colour cable is in stock at wholesalers.

Try these PQ links:
http://www.copper.org/applications/electrical/pq/homepa...
http://www.marcspages.co.uk/pq/index.htm
http://www.lpqi.org/lwslib/ktwse?welcome need to register
--
Z
Remove all Zeds in e-mail address to reply.
Anonymous
April 24, 2004 2:30:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

What about these? They seem pretty inexpensive.

http://www.equitech.com/products/seconds/seconds.html

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Bob Chandler <bassface@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>>I was looking into sine wave generators like the ones that come on the
>>more expensive UPS units and output sine wave all the time -not just
>>when running off the batteries. Some research showed the that sine
>>waves are dirty but apparently the more expensive units are high
>>quality. I bought an APC Smart 2200UPS and all my power/noise problems
>>went away. I've been able to run my Trident board, a rack of pres and
>>FX well as my computer workstation all off of this unit. The
>>improvement in background noise is staggering. I have started to plug
>>the Furman into the UPS--is there any reason why a balanced power
>>suppy should not be used with a UPS that outputs sine wave??
>
>
> If that's what I think that is, it's a standby UPS, so the inverter
> isn't actually running when the power is on. If this is the case,
> then the benefit you are hearing is because the unit has a line filter
> built into it, and you're just hearing the effects of the low-pass
> filter removing all the line trash.
>
> In general, this seems like a really expensive way to get line filtering,
> but since you should probably have a UPS on your DAW anyway, it sounds
> like a good way to go.
> --scott
Anonymous
May 4, 2004 5:26:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.components,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

This is an old thread now, but I just read it. I didn't see anyone (though
they might
have) mention a motor-generator. Sure, it can be expensive and wasteful, but
you
can build one yourself, and with a massive flywheel, not much high frequency
or impulse noise will get through. You can drive it with a variety of
standby devices
when the normal feed is down.

> >
> Any inverter you could afford puts out an MFM (modified square wave)
output.
> This is an enormous source of noise, much more than on a power line.
>

Synthesized sine wave inverters have become much more affordable lately, not
that they will be "good enough," but they're definitely not "modified square
wave."
What's more, there's quite a bit of used equipment around now, as many home
power gurus end up buying larger inverters and selling the smaller ones.

David
!