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P2P sharing of service manual PDF's

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Anonymous
May 16, 2004 11:11:18 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Why not? Use Kazaa Lite - no spyware. The manufacturers mostly don't
copyright service info, and even if they did, they don't really care about
this.

I could make many Pioneer, Yamaha, Sony and other audio / video manuals
available from my computer. Surely some others of us could as well.

Example:

Search for pioneer vsx pdf would list any available PDF's on pioneer
receivers.


Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
Anonymous
May 16, 2004 11:14:39 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

P.S.

I checked and people are already doing this for manuals for computer games,
Honda car shop manuals, you name it.

mz

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> wrote in message
news:2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de...
> Why not? Use Kazaa Lite - no spyware. The manufacturers mostly don't
> copyright service info, and even if they did, they don't really care about
> this.
>
> I could make many Pioneer, Yamaha, Sony and other audio / video manuals
> available from my computer. Surely some others of us could as well.
>
> Example:
>
> Search for pioneer vsx pdf would list any available PDF's on pioneer
> receivers.
>
>
> Mark Z.
>
> --
> Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
> have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
>
>
>
Anonymous
May 16, 2004 5:11:46 PM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

In <2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
at 07:11 AM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:

>Why not? Use Kazaa Lite - no spyware. The manufacturers mostly don't
>copyright service info, and even if they did, they don't really care
>about this.

I assume you are talking about service manuals.

I would like to see a statement from the manufacturers to approve this
sort of activity. Many are shy about sharing service info. I'm not near
my manuals at the moment, but I remember most of them as being
copyrighted or at least considered to be "proprietory" by the
manufacturers.

>I could make many Pioneer, Yamaha, Sony and other audio / video
>manuals available from my computer. Surely some others of us could as
>well.

I don't care for scanned PDF's. The files are large and generally hard
to read. How would you handle large schematics? Most of my manuals have
large pullout drawings. Redrawn and retyped manuals would be useful,
but it is a *HUGE* project.

When I need a manual, I need it NOW. I'd hate to wait for the
respective manual hosting system to come online. Also, there are often
some very useful bulletins that are not part of the manuals. Sometimes
bulletins can save weeks of head scratching when faced with an obscure
intermittent problem.

Perhaps I'm old fashioned, but I prefer printed manuals. I also prefer
manuals that are maintained by the manufacturer. Assuming we could lash
together an army of a few thousand contributors and fairly divide the
manual preparation work, I don't think we could trust that the manuals
are or could be kept up to date. For example, if a local Joe purchased
a manual for model XYZ a few years ago and put it online, I doubt if
the manufacturer will notify Joe if there is a future bulletin or
manual correction issued for that model.

In terms of user manuals, many manufacturers are providing current
model user manuals online. I assume that they will continue this
service for future models and keep the current stuff online until they
run out of disk space. I don't expect manufacturers to go through their
archives and reprint manuals for long discontinued products.

-----------------------------------------------------------
spam: uce@ftc.gov
wordgame:123(abc):<14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
13> (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------
Related resources
Anonymous
May 16, 2004 5:59:53 PM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

See comments inserted. - mz



"Barry Mann" <zzzz@zzzz.zzz> wrote in message
news:40a7a787$2$avgroveq$mr2ice@wcnews.cyberonic.com...
> In <2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
> at 07:11 AM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:
>
> >Why not? Use Kazaa Lite - no spyware. The manufacturers mostly don't
> >copyright service info, and even if they did, they don't really care
> >about this.
>
> I assume you are talking about service manuals.
>
> I would like to see a statement from the manufacturers to approve this
> sort of activity. Many are shy about sharing service info. I'm not near
> my manuals at the moment, but I remember most of them as being
> copyrighted or at least considered to be "proprietory" by the
> manufacturers.

I think manufactuers are much more blase' about this these days, with few
manuals having any copyright. Just less work for them to do support-wise.

>
> >I could make many Pioneer, Yamaha, Sony and other audio / video
> >manuals available from my computer. Surely some others of us could as
> >well.
>
> I don't care for scanned PDF's. The files are large and generally hard
> to read. How would you handle large schematics?

Better than nothing, I would say.
The majority of our new serice data is in electronic media ONLY.
Some are very cool, though, with "hot links" imbedded whereby one just
clicks on the I.C., for example, and it takes you to it's circuit board
location, click again and it goes to the prts list, again, and it goes to
the block diagram, etc. If you need to print a section, that's easy to do.


>Most of my manuals have
> large pullout drawings. Redrawn and retyped manuals would be useful,
> but it is a *HUGE* project.
>
> When I need a manual, I need it NOW. I'd hate to wait for the
> respective manual hosting system to come online. Also, there are often
> some very useful bulletins that are not part of the manuals. Sometimes
> bulletins can save weeks of head scratching when faced with an obscure
> intermittent problem.

This has always been the province of the authorized servicer, whether the
service data is printed or electronic.

>
> Perhaps I'm old fashioned, but I prefer printed manuals. I also prefer
> manuals that are maintained by the manufacturer. Assuming we could lash
> together an army of a few thousand contributors and fairly divide the
> manual preparation work, I don't think we could trust that the manuals
> are or could be kept up to date. For example, if a local Joe purchased
> a manual for model XYZ a few years ago and put it online, I doubt if
> the manufacturer will notify Joe if there is a future bulletin or
> manual correction issued for that model.
>
> In terms of user manuals, many manufacturers are providing current
> model user manuals online. I assume that they will continue this
> service for future models and keep the current stuff online until they
> run out of disk space. I don't expect manufacturers to go through their
> archives and reprint manuals for long discontinued products.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> spam: uce@ftc.gov
> wordgame:123(abc):<14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
> 13> (Barry Mann)
> [sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
Anonymous
May 17, 2004 1:13:18 PM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

In <2gps12F5hek2U1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
at 01:59 PM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:

>See comments inserted. - mz

>"Barry Mann" <zzzz@zzzz.zzz> wrote in message
>news:40a7a787$2$avgroveq$mr2ice@wcnews.cyberonic.com...
>> In <2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
>> at 07:11 AM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:
[ ... ]

>> I don't care for scanned PDF's. The files are large and generally hard
>> to read. How would you handle large schematics?

>Better than nothing, I would say.
>The majority of our new serice data is in electronic media ONLY. Some
>are very cool, though, with "hot links" imbedded whereby one just
>clicks on the I.C., for example, and it takes you to it's circuit
>board location, click again and it goes to the prts list, again, and
>it goes to the block diagram, etc. If you need to print a section,
>that's easy to do.

The consumer side of me would like manuals to be available so that I
could fix minor problems myself and avoid the hassle of tracking down a
servicer who is competent. The only allure for me would be manuals for
very old units, no longer supported by manufacturers, for which generic
parts can be found. These units would have little or no commercial
value, but would be important to someone for other reasons.

The pro side of me avoids unofficial manuals because they are often out
dated time wasters. (the official manuals are often not much better)

The pro side of me also hates to deal with the unit that was butchered
on the kitchen table. Easily available manuals would encourage the
inept.

I won't say that I have never wished that I could find a manual online,
but, overall, they would not be valuable enough to encourage me to
participate in an effort to get them online.

[ ... ]

-----------------------------------------------------------
spam: uce@ftc.gov
wordgame:123(abc):<14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
13> (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 5:15:25 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Mark D. Zacharias screams, but nobody listens:
> P.S.
>
> I checked and people are already doing this for manuals for computer games,
> Honda car shop manuals, you name it.

I have found some useful Linux stuff on Kazaa, eMule and other P2P
programs. Searched under "documents" for "Linux".

So this looks like a very good idea.
Will manufacturers start "attacking" us like RIAA done for MP3 files and MPAA
(IIRC) for video files?

Chaos.
--
Chaos Master® | "I'm going under,
Posting from Brazil! | drowning in you
ICQ: 126375906 | I'm falling forever,
ask for e-mail/MSN | I've got to break through"
---------------------. -- Evanescence, "Going Under"
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 9:02:41 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Chaos Master" <ig@ig.com.br> wrote in message
news:MPG.1b136eb59155e415989997@130.133.1.4...
> Mark D. Zacharias screams, but nobody listens:
> > P.S.
> >
> > I checked and people are already doing this for manuals for computer
games,
> > Honda car shop manuals, you name it.
>
> I have found some useful Linux stuff on Kazaa, eMule and other P2P
> programs. Searched under "documents" for "Linux".
>
> So this looks like a very good idea.
> Will manufacturers start "attacking" us like RIAA done for MP3 files and
MPAA
> (IIRC) for video files?
>
> Chaos.
> --
> Chaos Master® | "I'm going under,
> Posting from Brazil! | drowning in you
> ICQ: 126375906 | I'm falling forever,
> ask for e-mail/MSN | I've got to break through"
> ---------------------. -- Evanescence, "Going Under"
>

> Will manufacturers start "attacking" us like RIAA done for MP3 files and
MPAA

I sincerely doubt it. For one thing RIAA and the record companies have
billions at stake. So they have hired guns and bribed legislators to go
after the downloaders. Sharing service data is precisely what P2P is
"supposed" to be doing as a legitimate(legal) service.

Mark Z.
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 9:23:01 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

P.S.

If a manufacturer thought they were RIAA and didn't like their service
manual(s) being posted, the first response would likely be a "cease and
desist" letter, not a lawsuit.

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> wrote in message
news:2gu59oF6sun1U1@uni-berlin.de...
> "Chaos Master" <ig@ig.com.br> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1b136eb59155e415989997@130.133.1.4...
> > Mark D. Zacharias screams, but nobody listens:
> > > P.S.
> > >
> > > I checked and people are already doing this for manuals for computer
> games,
> > > Honda car shop manuals, you name it.
> >
> > I have found some useful Linux stuff on Kazaa, eMule and other P2P
> > programs. Searched under "documents" for "Linux".
> >
> > So this looks like a very good idea.
> > Will manufacturers start "attacking" us like RIAA done for MP3 files and
> MPAA
> > (IIRC) for video files?
> >
> > Chaos.
> > --
> > Chaos Master® | "I'm going under,
> > Posting from Brazil! | drowning in you
> > ICQ: 126375906 | I'm falling forever,
> > ask for e-mail/MSN | I've got to break through"
> > ---------------------. -- Evanescence, "Going Under"
> >
>
> > Will manufacturers start "attacking" us like RIAA done for MP3 files and
> MPAA
>
> I sincerely doubt it. For one thing RIAA and the record companies have
> billions at stake. So they have hired guns and bribed legislators to go
> after the downloaders. Sharing service data is precisely what P2P is
> "supposed" to be doing as a legitimate(legal) service.
>
> Mark Z.
>
>
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 9:38:24 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> wrote in message news:<2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de>...
> Why not? Use Kazaa Lite - no spyware. The manufacturers mostly don't
> copyright service info,

Wanna bet? I have in the realm of 200 service manuals here. I just
pulled 10 at random out of the drawers, every single one of them
has a copyright notice on it.

> and even if they did, they don't really care about
> this.

Again, wanna bet? A number of "public service" sites that have both
user and service manuals have been hammered by the manufacturers and
forced to remove scans, PDF's even retypes of copyrighted manuals
from the site. The most recent example I am aware of is Nikon going
around and forcing a number of sites to remove manuals of even long-
discontinued products, for example, Nikon F2's, discontinued for
a quarter of a century.

Don't be so sure that somne corporate legal department is out there
just waiting to justify its budget by going after some easy targets.
Like you.
Anonymous
May 19, 2004 12:18:57 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

I have to say I'm disappointed. I may well still try to make some of these
available. I think it's important, especially these days, when customer
service, and service in general are disappearing.

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Dick Pierce" <dpierce@cartchunk.org> wrote in message
news:D c02c02f.0405180438.28a9381@posting.google.com...
> "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> wrote in message
news:<2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de>...
> > Why not? Use Kazaa Lite - no spyware. The manufacturers mostly don't
> > copyright service info,
>
> Wanna bet? I have in the realm of 200 service manuals here. I just
> pulled 10 at random out of the drawers, every single one of them
> has a copyright notice on it.
>
> > and even if they did, they don't really care about
> > this.
>
> Again, wanna bet? A number of "public service" sites that have both
> user and service manuals have been hammered by the manufacturers and
> forced to remove scans, PDF's even retypes of copyrighted manuals
> from the site. The most recent example I am aware of is Nikon going
> around and forcing a number of sites to remove manuals of even long-
> discontinued products, for example, Nikon F2's, discontinued for
> a quarter of a century.
>
> Don't be so sure that somne corporate legal department is out there
> just waiting to justify its budget by going after some easy targets.
> Like you.
May 19, 2004 11:52:47 PM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Barry Mann wrote:
> In <2gps12F5hek2U1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
> at 01:59 PM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:
>
>
>>See comments inserted. - mz
>
>
>>"Barry Mann" <zzzz@zzzz.zzz> wrote in message
>>news:40a7a787$2$avgroveq$mr2ice@wcnews.cyberonic.com...
>>
>>>In <2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
>>> at 07:11 AM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:
>>
> [ ... ]
>
>
>>>I don't care for scanned PDF's. The files are large and generally hard
>>>to read. How would you handle large schematics?
>>
>
>>Better than nothing, I would say.
>>The majority of our new serice data is in electronic media ONLY. Some
>>are very cool, though, with "hot links" imbedded whereby one just
>>clicks on the I.C., for example, and it takes you to it's circuit
>>board location, click again and it goes to the prts list, again, and
>>it goes to the block diagram, etc. If you need to print a section,
>>that's easy to do.
>
>
> The consumer side of me would like manuals to be available so that I
> could fix minor problems myself and avoid the hassle of tracking down a
> servicer who is competent. The only allure for me would be manuals for
> very old units, no longer supported by manufacturers, for which generic
> parts can be found. These units would have little or no commercial
> value, but would be important to someone for other reasons.
>
> The pro side of me avoids unofficial manuals because they are often out
> dated time wasters. (the official manuals are often not much better)
>
> The pro side of me also hates to deal with the unit that was butchered
> on the kitchen table. Easily available manuals would encourage the
> inept.
>
> I won't say that I have never wished that I could find a manual online,
> but, overall, they would not be valuable enough to encourage me to
> participate in an effort to get them online.
>
> [ ... ]
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> spam: uce@ftc.gov
> wordgame:123(abc):<14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
> 13> (Barry Mann)
> [sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>

Remember that manufacturers do not want you, or anyone else, to fix
their stuff. They want to sell you a NEW one.
When Tektronix switched corporate control from engineers to bean
counters, they quit making service manuals and supplying spare parts.
Every unit that gets fixed is a new one that doesn't get sold.

Most people who stand in line at 5AM at the TV superstore to get the $99
doorbuster
special don't give ANY thought to getting it fixed. The ONLY thing they
care about is the cheapest initial price.
mike

--
Return address is VALID.
Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
Toshiba & Compaq LiIon Batteries, Test Equipment
Yaesu FTV901R Transverter, 30pS pulser
Tektronix Concept Books, spot welding head...
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/
Anonymous
May 22, 2004 5:08:10 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

My opinion is, that there are literally millions of Techs out there. For
many years, we (including myself), have put LOTS of money in the repair
manuals. Where this board is great for giving good advice for free. I
think the last thing that any of the qualified techs want to do is just give
the manuals away for free. NOW, if the manufactures wanted to produce
PDF's, and sell them. That would be cool. And if those who purchased them,
wanted to throw their money away, that would be their option (not to mention
the legal aspect of it). However, you have to remember. These manuals in
the wrong hands, are a ticking time bomb waiting to happen. You can imagine
the Lawsuits against the companies and the people who distributed them?
Sure, there are a lot of those out there who are trained, and can read them.
However, I can tell you I have several Degrees in Electronics, computer
science, and Aero Electronics, does it mean it is true? No, I have none of
these. I am trained in electronics, I do know how to read the manuals,
however, I am far from a pro. I have to ask questions like the next. That
is why this board is great. We can share ideas, and even debate them. But
usually, we know when and when not to give the info out. We try to limit
the info, to insure that no one gets hurt (or killed), if these manuals were
just distributed, without cost, they would make it into hands that should
not have them. So, the cost, not only benefits the company, but also keeps
them out of unqualified hands.

Just My Opinion,
"Stepping off my Soapbox"
Rick



"mike" <spamme0@juno.com> wrote in message news:40AC1D7F.3080004@juno.com...
> Barry Mann wrote:
> > In <2gps12F5hek2U1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
> > at 01:59 PM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:
> >
> >
> >>See comments inserted. - mz
> >
> >
> >>"Barry Mann" <zzzz@zzzz.zzz> wrote in message
> >>news:40a7a787$2$avgroveq$mr2ice@wcnews.cyberonic.com...
> >>
> >>>In <2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
> >>> at 07:11 AM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:
> >>
> > [ ... ]
> >
> >
> >>>I don't care for scanned PDF's. The files are large and generally hard
> >>>to read. How would you handle large schematics?
> >>
> >
> >>Better than nothing, I would say.
> >>The majority of our new serice data is in electronic media ONLY. Some
> >>are very cool, though, with "hot links" imbedded whereby one just
> >>clicks on the I.C., for example, and it takes you to it's circuit
> >>board location, click again and it goes to the prts list, again, and
> >>it goes to the block diagram, etc. If you need to print a section,
> >>that's easy to do.
> >
> >
> > The consumer side of me would like manuals to be available so that I
> > could fix minor problems myself and avoid the hassle of tracking down a
> > servicer who is competent. The only allure for me would be manuals for
> > very old units, no longer supported by manufacturers, for which generic
> > parts can be found. These units would have little or no commercial
> > value, but would be important to someone for other reasons.
> >
> > The pro side of me avoids unofficial manuals because they are often out
> > dated time wasters. (the official manuals are often not much better)
> >
> > The pro side of me also hates to deal with the unit that was butchered
> > on the kitchen table. Easily available manuals would encourage the
> > inept.
> >
> > I won't say that I have never wished that I could find a manual online,
> > but, overall, they would not be valuable enough to encourage me to
> > participate in an effort to get them online.
> >
> > [ ... ]
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > spam: uce@ftc.gov
> > wordgame:123(abc):<14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
> > 13> (Barry Mann)
> > [sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
> Remember that manufacturers do not want you, or anyone else, to fix
> their stuff. They want to sell you a NEW one.
> When Tektronix switched corporate control from engineers to bean
> counters, they quit making service manuals and supplying spare parts.
> Every unit that gets fixed is a new one that doesn't get sold.
>
> Most people who stand in line at 5AM at the TV superstore to get the $99
> doorbuster
> special don't give ANY thought to getting it fixed. The ONLY thing they
> care about is the cheapest initial price.
> mike
>
> --
> Return address is VALID.
> Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
> Toshiba & Compaq LiIon Batteries, Test Equipment
> Yaesu FTV901R Transverter, 30pS pulser
> Tektronix Concept Books, spot welding head...
> http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/
>
Anonymous
May 22, 2004 5:08:11 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

An unknowledgeable yahoo without a service manual is only that much more
dangerous than one with manual in hand. At least there are safety warnings
in the manuals.

Manufacturers do sell them, that is where we get them in the first place.

Fifty dollars to Onkyo will get you EVERY manual they have on PDF. Best deal
I know of, really. They even scanned almost all their old manuals, back to
the '70s.


Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Ricky Eck" <lizard7151971@verizon2.net> wrote in message
news:_Jxrc.1961$No1.1509@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> My opinion is, that there are literally millions of Techs out there. For
> many years, we (including myself), have put LOTS of money in the repair
> manuals. Where this board is great for giving good advice for free. I
> think the last thing that any of the qualified techs want to do is just
give
> the manuals away for free. NOW, if the manufactures wanted to produce
> PDF's, and sell them. That would be cool. And if those who purchased
them,
> wanted to throw their money away, that would be their option (not to
mention
> the legal aspect of it). However, you have to remember. These manuals in
> the wrong hands, are a ticking time bomb waiting to happen. You can
imagine
> the Lawsuits against the companies and the people who distributed them?
> Sure, there are a lot of those out there who are trained, and can read
them.
> However, I can tell you I have several Degrees in Electronics, computer
> science, and Aero Electronics, does it mean it is true? No, I have none
of
> these. I am trained in electronics, I do know how to read the manuals,
> however, I am far from a pro. I have to ask questions like the next.
That
> is why this board is great. We can share ideas, and even debate them.
But
> usually, we know when and when not to give the info out. We try to limit
> the info, to insure that no one gets hurt (or killed), if these manuals
were
> just distributed, without cost, they would make it into hands that should
> not have them. So, the cost, not only benefits the company, but also
keeps
> them out of unqualified hands.
>
> Just My Opinion,
> "Stepping off my Soapbox"
> Rick
>
>
>
> "mike" <spamme0@juno.com> wrote in message
news:40AC1D7F.3080004@juno.com...
> > Barry Mann wrote:
> > > In <2gps12F5hek2U1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
> > > at 01:59 PM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:
> > >
> > >
> > >>See comments inserted. - mz
> > >
> > >
> > >>"Barry Mann" <zzzz@zzzz.zzz> wrote in message
> > >>news:40a7a787$2$avgroveq$mr2ice@wcnews.cyberonic.com...
> > >>
> > >>>In <2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
> > >>> at 07:11 AM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:
> > >>
> > > [ ... ]
> > >
> > >
> > >>>I don't care for scanned PDF's. The files are large and generally
hard
> > >>>to read. How would you handle large schematics?
> > >>
> > >
> > >>Better than nothing, I would say.
> > >>The majority of our new serice data is in electronic media ONLY. Some
> > >>are very cool, though, with "hot links" imbedded whereby one just
> > >>clicks on the I.C., for example, and it takes you to it's circuit
> > >>board location, click again and it goes to the prts list, again, and
> > >>it goes to the block diagram, etc. If you need to print a section,
> > >>that's easy to do.
> > >
> > >
> > > The consumer side of me would like manuals to be available so that I
> > > could fix minor problems myself and avoid the hassle of tracking down
a
> > > servicer who is competent. The only allure for me would be manuals for
> > > very old units, no longer supported by manufacturers, for which
generic
> > > parts can be found. These units would have little or no commercial
> > > value, but would be important to someone for other reasons.
> > >
> > > The pro side of me avoids unofficial manuals because they are often
out
> > > dated time wasters. (the official manuals are often not much better)
> > >
> > > The pro side of me also hates to deal with the unit that was butchered
> > > on the kitchen table. Easily available manuals would encourage the
> > > inept.
> > >
> > > I won't say that I have never wished that I could find a manual
online,
> > > but, overall, they would not be valuable enough to encourage me to
> > > participate in an effort to get them online.
> > >
> > > [ ... ]
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > > spam: uce@ftc.gov
> > > wordgame:123(abc):<14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
> > > 13> (Barry Mann)
> > > [sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> >
> > Remember that manufacturers do not want you, or anyone else, to fix
> > their stuff. They want to sell you a NEW one.
> > When Tektronix switched corporate control from engineers to bean
> > counters, they quit making service manuals and supplying spare parts.
> > Every unit that gets fixed is a new one that doesn't get sold.
> >
> > Most people who stand in line at 5AM at the TV superstore to get the $99
> > doorbuster
> > special don't give ANY thought to getting it fixed. The ONLY thing they
> > care about is the cheapest initial price.
> > mike
> >
> > --
> > Return address is VALID.
> > Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
> > Toshiba & Compaq LiIon Batteries, Test Equipment
> > Yaesu FTV901R Transverter, 30pS pulser
> > Tektronix Concept Books, spot welding head...
> > http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/
> >
>
>
Anonymous
May 22, 2004 5:38:39 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Safety Warnings on the manuals, Humm, last I seen, they were all over the
back of the devices, inside the devices, on the PCB, inside the instruction
manuals. What makes you think that they will pay any attention to the ones
in the service manuals?

Once again, it the person would rather try to get it free then pay 50 bucks.
If it is for free, an untrained person will try to read these. Heck, I have
been train, and sometimes I have to do a double take. The one layout that
Wizard showed me on the Vert chip, I had before, but once he described it, I
had to do a double take. So you can imagine what a person with HS
electronics 101 will think. Sure you will get those few headstrong people
who think they know better, and open it, and try. However, most will just
throw the unit away, never going near any HV. If you give them the papers
(on paper or disk), it will just encourage them to pull out the screwdriver,
and open 'er up.

Just My Opinion
Rick

"Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> wrote in message
news:2h7oliFa0jvpU1@uni-berlin.de...
> An unknowledgeable yahoo without a service manual is only that much more
> dangerous than one with manual in hand. At least there are safety warnings
> in the manuals.
>
> Manufacturers do sell them, that is where we get them in the first place.
>
> Fifty dollars to Onkyo will get you EVERY manual they have on PDF. Best
deal
> I know of, really. They even scanned almost all their old manuals, back to
> the '70s.
>
>
> Mark Z.
>
> --
> Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
> have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
>
>
> "Ricky Eck" <lizard7151971@verizon2.net> wrote in message
> news:_Jxrc.1961$No1.1509@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> > My opinion is, that there are literally millions of Techs out there.
For
> > many years, we (including myself), have put LOTS of money in the repair
> > manuals. Where this board is great for giving good advice for free. I
> > think the last thing that any of the qualified techs want to do is just
> give
> > the manuals away for free. NOW, if the manufactures wanted to produce
> > PDF's, and sell them. That would be cool. And if those who purchased
> them,
> > wanted to throw their money away, that would be their option (not to
> mention
> > the legal aspect of it). However, you have to remember. These manuals
in
> > the wrong hands, are a ticking time bomb waiting to happen. You can
> imagine
> > the Lawsuits against the companies and the people who distributed them?
> > Sure, there are a lot of those out there who are trained, and can read
> them.
> > However, I can tell you I have several Degrees in Electronics, computer
> > science, and Aero Electronics, does it mean it is true? No, I have none
> of
> > these. I am trained in electronics, I do know how to read the manuals,
> > however, I am far from a pro. I have to ask questions like the next.
> That
> > is why this board is great. We can share ideas, and even debate them.
> But
> > usually, we know when and when not to give the info out. We try to
limit
> > the info, to insure that no one gets hurt (or killed), if these manuals
> were
> > just distributed, without cost, they would make it into hands that
should
> > not have them. So, the cost, not only benefits the company, but also
> keeps
> > them out of unqualified hands.
> >
> > Just My Opinion,
> > "Stepping off my Soapbox"
> > Rick
> >
> >
> >
> > "mike" <spamme0@juno.com> wrote in message
> news:40AC1D7F.3080004@juno.com...
> > > Barry Mann wrote:
> > > > In <2gps12F5hek2U1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
> > > > at 01:59 PM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>See comments inserted. - mz
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>"Barry Mann" <zzzz@zzzz.zzz> wrote in message
> > > >>news:40a7a787$2$avgroveq$mr2ice@wcnews.cyberonic.com...
> > > >>
> > > >>>In <2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
> > > >>> at 07:11 AM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:
> > > >>
> > > > [ ... ]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>>I don't care for scanned PDF's. The files are large and generally
> hard
> > > >>>to read. How would you handle large schematics?
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >>Better than nothing, I would say.
> > > >>The majority of our new serice data is in electronic media ONLY.
Some
> > > >>are very cool, though, with "hot links" imbedded whereby one just
> > > >>clicks on the I.C., for example, and it takes you to it's circuit
> > > >>board location, click again and it goes to the prts list, again, and
> > > >>it goes to the block diagram, etc. If you need to print a section,
> > > >>that's easy to do.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The consumer side of me would like manuals to be available so that I
> > > > could fix minor problems myself and avoid the hassle of tracking
down
> a
> > > > servicer who is competent. The only allure for me would be manuals
for
> > > > very old units, no longer supported by manufacturers, for which
> generic
> > > > parts can be found. These units would have little or no commercial
> > > > value, but would be important to someone for other reasons.
> > > >
> > > > The pro side of me avoids unofficial manuals because they are often
> out
> > > > dated time wasters. (the official manuals are often not much better)
> > > >
> > > > The pro side of me also hates to deal with the unit that was
butchered
> > > > on the kitchen table. Easily available manuals would encourage the
> > > > inept.
> > > >
> > > > I won't say that I have never wished that I could find a manual
> online,
> > > > but, overall, they would not be valuable enough to encourage me to
> > > > participate in an effort to get them online.
> > > >
> > > > [ ... ]
> > > >
> > > > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > > > spam: uce@ftc.gov
> > > > wordgame:123(abc):<14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3
15
> > > > 13> (Barry Mann)
> > > > [sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
> > > > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > >
> > > Remember that manufacturers do not want you, or anyone else, to fix
> > > their stuff. They want to sell you a NEW one.
> > > When Tektronix switched corporate control from engineers to bean
> > > counters, they quit making service manuals and supplying spare parts.
> > > Every unit that gets fixed is a new one that doesn't get sold.
> > >
> > > Most people who stand in line at 5AM at the TV superstore to get the
$99
> > > doorbuster
> > > special don't give ANY thought to getting it fixed. The ONLY thing
they
> > > care about is the cheapest initial price.
> > > mike
> > >
> > > --
> > > Return address is VALID.
> > > Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
> > > Toshiba & Compaq LiIon Batteries, Test Equipment
> > > Yaesu FTV901R Transverter, 30pS pulser
> > > Tektronix Concept Books, spot welding head...
> > > http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Anonymous
May 22, 2004 9:40:59 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

I know what you're saying, but such a person couldn't read the schematic
portion in the first place.

My position on this is based on the assumption that it's mostly legitimate
techs who will use these.

For those who aren't - there's always the possibility of a Darwin Award.


Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Ricky Eck" <lizard7151971@verizon2.net> wrote in message
news:zayrc.2221$No1.1570@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> Safety Warnings on the manuals, Humm, last I seen, they were all over the
> back of the devices, inside the devices, on the PCB, inside the
instruction
> manuals. What makes you think that they will pay any attention to the
ones
> in the service manuals?
>
> Once again, it the person would rather try to get it free then pay 50
bucks.
> If it is for free, an untrained person will try to read these. Heck, I
have
> been train, and sometimes I have to do a double take. The one layout that
> Wizard showed me on the Vert chip, I had before, but once he described it,
I
> had to do a double take. So you can imagine what a person with HS
> electronics 101 will think. Sure you will get those few headstrong people
> who think they know better, and open it, and try. However, most will just
> throw the unit away, never going near any HV. If you give them the papers
> (on paper or disk), it will just encourage them to pull out the
screwdriver,
> and open 'er up.
>
> Just My Opinion
> Rick
>
> "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> wrote in message
> news:2h7oliFa0jvpU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > An unknowledgeable yahoo without a service manual is only that much more
> > dangerous than one with manual in hand. At least there are safety
warnings
> > in the manuals.
> >
> > Manufacturers do sell them, that is where we get them in the first
place.
> >
> > Fifty dollars to Onkyo will get you EVERY manual they have on PDF. Best
> deal
> > I know of, really. They even scanned almost all their old manuals, back
to
> > the '70s.
> >
> >
> > Mark Z.
> >
> > --
> > Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
> > have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.
> >
> >
> > "Ricky Eck" <lizard7151971@verizon2.net> wrote in message
> > news:_Jxrc.1961$No1.1509@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> > > My opinion is, that there are literally millions of Techs out there.
> For
> > > many years, we (including myself), have put LOTS of money in the
repair
> > > manuals. Where this board is great for giving good advice for free.
I
> > > think the last thing that any of the qualified techs want to do is
just
> > give
> > > the manuals away for free. NOW, if the manufactures wanted to produce
> > > PDF's, and sell them. That would be cool. And if those who purchased
> > them,
> > > wanted to throw their money away, that would be their option (not to
> > mention
> > > the legal aspect of it). However, you have to remember. These
manuals
> in
> > > the wrong hands, are a ticking time bomb waiting to happen. You can
> > imagine
> > > the Lawsuits against the companies and the people who distributed
them?
> > > Sure, there are a lot of those out there who are trained, and can read
> > them.
> > > However, I can tell you I have several Degrees in Electronics,
computer
> > > science, and Aero Electronics, does it mean it is true? No, I have
none
> > of
> > > these. I am trained in electronics, I do know how to read the
manuals,
> > > however, I am far from a pro. I have to ask questions like the next.
> > That
> > > is why this board is great. We can share ideas, and even debate them.
> > But
> > > usually, we know when and when not to give the info out. We try to
> limit
> > > the info, to insure that no one gets hurt (or killed), if these
manuals
> > were
> > > just distributed, without cost, they would make it into hands that
> should
> > > not have them. So, the cost, not only benefits the company, but also
> > keeps
> > > them out of unqualified hands.
> > >
> > > Just My Opinion,
> > > "Stepping off my Soapbox"
> > > Rick
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "mike" <spamme0@juno.com> wrote in message
> > news:40AC1D7F.3080004@juno.com...
> > > > Barry Mann wrote:
> > > > > In <2gps12F5hek2U1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
> > > > > at 01:59 PM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>See comments inserted. - mz
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>"Barry Mann" <zzzz@zzzz.zzz> wrote in message
> > > > >>news:40a7a787$2$avgroveq$mr2ice@wcnews.cyberonic.com...
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>In <2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
> > > > >>> at 07:11 AM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:
> > > > >>
> > > > > [ ... ]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>>I don't care for scanned PDF's. The files are large and generally
> > hard
> > > > >>>to read. How would you handle large schematics?
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >>Better than nothing, I would say.
> > > > >>The majority of our new serice data is in electronic media ONLY.
> Some
> > > > >>are very cool, though, with "hot links" imbedded whereby one just
> > > > >>clicks on the I.C., for example, and it takes you to it's circuit
> > > > >>board location, click again and it goes to the prts list, again,
and
> > > > >>it goes to the block diagram, etc. If you need to print a section,
> > > > >>that's easy to do.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The consumer side of me would like manuals to be available so that
I
> > > > > could fix minor problems myself and avoid the hassle of tracking
> down
> > a
> > > > > servicer who is competent. The only allure for me would be manuals
> for
> > > > > very old units, no longer supported by manufacturers, for which
> > generic
> > > > > parts can be found. These units would have little or no commercial
> > > > > value, but would be important to someone for other reasons.
> > > > >
> > > > > The pro side of me avoids unofficial manuals because they are
often
> > out
> > > > > dated time wasters. (the official manuals are often not much
better)
> > > > >
> > > > > The pro side of me also hates to deal with the unit that was
> butchered
> > > > > on the kitchen table. Easily available manuals would encourage the
> > > > > inept.
> > > > >
> > > > > I won't say that I have never wished that I could find a manual
> > online,
> > > > > but, overall, they would not be valuable enough to encourage me to
> > > > > participate in an effort to get them online.
> > > > >
> > > > > [ ... ]
> > > > >
> > > > > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > spam: uce@ftc.gov
> > > > > wordgame:123(abc):<14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3
> 15
> > > > > 13> (Barry Mann)
> > > > > [sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
> > > > > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Remember that manufacturers do not want you, or anyone else, to fix
> > > > their stuff. They want to sell you a NEW one.
> > > > When Tektronix switched corporate control from engineers to bean
> > > > counters, they quit making service manuals and supplying spare
parts.
> > > > Every unit that gets fixed is a new one that doesn't get sold.
> > > >
> > > > Most people who stand in line at 5AM at the TV superstore to get the
> $99
> > > > doorbuster
> > > > special don't give ANY thought to getting it fixed. The ONLY thing
> they
> > > > care about is the cheapest initial price.
> > > > mike
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Return address is VALID.
> > > > Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
> > > > Toshiba & Compaq LiIon Batteries, Test Equipment
> > > > Yaesu FTV901R Transverter, 30pS pulser
> > > > Tektronix Concept Books, spot welding head...
> > > > http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Anonymous
May 22, 2004 6:20:05 PM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

mv /var/posts/Ricky Eck/lizard7151971@verizon2.net /dev/null:
> My opinion is, that there are literally millions of Techs out there. For
> many years, we (including myself), have put LOTS of money in the repair
> manuals. Where this board is great for giving good advice for free. I
> think the last thing that any of the qualified techs want to do is just give
> the manuals away for free.

> NOW, if the manufactures wanted to produce
> PDF's, and sell them. That would be cool. And if those who purchased them,
> wanted to throw their money away, that would be their option (not to mention
> the legal aspect of it).

PDF files can be encrypted, so you need a password to open them.

> I have to ask questions like the next. That
> is why this board is great. We can share ideas, and even debate them. But
> usually, we know when and when not to give the info out. We try to limit
> the info, to insure that no one gets hurt (or killed), if these manuals were
> just distributed, without cost, they would make it into hands that should
> not have them. So, the cost, not only benefits the company, but also keeps
> them out of unqualified hands.

IMHO a service manual is *useless* if you don't know anything about electronics.
My disclaimer is - "Download the manuals and use them at your own risk. We can't
do anything if you kill yourself."

[]s
--
Chaos Master® | "I'm going under,
Posting from Brazil! | drowning in you
ICQ: 126375906 | I'm falling forever,
ask for e-mail/MSN | I've got to break through"
---------------------. -- Evanescence, "Going Under"
Anonymous
June 10, 2004 4:05:19 PM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Barry Mann" <zzzz@zzzz.zzz> wrote in message
news:40a7a787$2$avgroveq$mr2ice@wcnews.cyberonic.com...
> In <2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
> at 07:11 AM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:
>
> >Why not? Use Kazaa Lite - no spyware. The manufacturers mostly don't
> >copyright service info, and even if they did, they don't really care
> >about this.
>
> I assume you are talking about service manuals.
>
> I would like to see a statement from the manufacturers to approve this
> sort of activity. Many are shy about sharing service info. I'm not near
> my manuals at the moment, but I remember most of them as being
> copyrighted or at least considered to be "proprietory" by the
> manufacturers.
>
> >I could make many Pioneer, Yamaha, Sony and other audio / video
> >manuals available from my computer. Surely some others of us could as
> >well.
>
> I don't care for scanned PDF's. The files are large and generally hard
> to read. How would you handle large schematics? Most of my manuals have
> large pullout drawings. Redrawn and retyped manuals would be useful,
> but it is a *HUGE* project.

There's no other way in any case as most older service manuals only exist in
microfilm format. But the resolution is very good so scanning it and
converting it to PDF would surely be feasible, and it being digital, the
format size doesn't really matter.
Anonymous
June 10, 2004 4:05:20 PM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

I'm starting to think that P2P won't really work due to the way the nodes
etc work on Kazaa.

I've been investigated a server called Streamload which is fairly ideal but
requires a 4.95 or 5.95 (I forget which) monthly fee.

Still considering this issue. The fee would probably filter out some of the
non-tech types, but then again participation would probably be almost
non-existent.

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"BitBanger" <Bb@dd.net> wrote in message
news:40c832e0$0$1729$abc4f4c3@news.wanadoo.nl...
>
> "Barry Mann" <zzzz@zzzz.zzz> wrote in message
> news:40a7a787$2$avgroveq$mr2ice@wcnews.cyberonic.com...
> > In <2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
> > at 07:11 AM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:
> >
> > >Why not? Use Kazaa Lite - no spyware. The manufacturers mostly don't
> > >copyright service info, and even if they did, they don't really care
> > >about this.
> >
> > I assume you are talking about service manuals.
> >
> > I would like to see a statement from the manufacturers to approve this
> > sort of activity. Many are shy about sharing service info. I'm not near
> > my manuals at the moment, but I remember most of them as being
> > copyrighted or at least considered to be "proprietory" by the
> > manufacturers.
> >
> > >I could make many Pioneer, Yamaha, Sony and other audio / video
> > >manuals available from my computer. Surely some others of us could as
> > >well.
> >
> > I don't care for scanned PDF's. The files are large and generally hard
> > to read. How would you handle large schematics? Most of my manuals have
> > large pullout drawings. Redrawn and retyped manuals would be useful,
> > but it is a *HUGE* project.
>
> There's no other way in any case as most older service manuals only exist
in
> microfilm format. But the resolution is very good so scanning it and
> converting it to PDF would surely be feasible, and it being digital, the
> format size doesn't really matter.
>
>
>
Anonymous
June 10, 2004 7:27:24 PM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Mark D. Zacharias (mzacharias@yis.us) caused an illegal operation in module
<2iqrerFpu2duU1@uni-berlin.de>:
> I'm starting to think that P2P won't really work due to the way the nodes
> etc work on Kazaa.
>
> I've been investigated a server called Streamload which is fairly ideal but
> requires a 4.95 or 5.95 (I forget which) monthly fee.

eMule? BitTorrent? (just guesses).

BitTorrent seems ideal. You just create the .torrent files with the file info
and people download them whenever they want the file.

[]s

--
© 2004 Chaos Master | "I'm going under,
Posting from Brazil! | drowning in you
ICQ: 126735906 / | I'm falling forever,
UnderNet: FreeB5D | I've got to break through"
---------------------. -- Evanescence, "Going Under"
Anonymous
June 11, 2004 12:28:27 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

I'll take a look at them. I was introduced to Streamload via a CBS Radio
Mystery Theater forum - they trade them that way. (With the permission of
the rights-owner, Mr. Himan Brown, that is.)

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Chaos Master" <triac@m-net.arbornet.org> wrote in message
news:MPG.1b329c3d385b6846989ac6@130.133.1.4...
> Mark D. Zacharias (mzacharias@yis.us) caused an illegal operation in
module
> <2iqrerFpu2duU1@uni-berlin.de>:
> > I'm starting to think that P2P won't really work due to the way the
nodes
> > etc work on Kazaa.
> >
> > I've been investigated a server called Streamload which is fairly ideal
but
> > requires a 4.95 or 5.95 (I forget which) monthly fee.
>
> eMule? BitTorrent? (just guesses).
>
> BitTorrent seems ideal. You just create the .torrent files with the file
info
> and people download them whenever they want the file.
>
> []s
>
> --
> © 2004 Chaos Master | "I'm going under,
> Posting from Brazil! | drowning in you
> ICQ: 126735906 / | I'm falling forever,
> UnderNet: FreeB5D | I've got to break through"
> ---------------------. -- Evanescence, "Going Under"
>
Anonymous
June 11, 2004 12:57:09 PM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Chaos Master <triac@m-net.arbornet.org> wrote:

>Mark D. Zacharias (mzacharias@yis.us) caused an illegal operation in module
><2iqrerFpu2duU1@uni-berlin.de>:
>> I'm starting to think that P2P won't really work due to the way the nodes
>> etc work on Kazaa.
>>
>> I've been investigated a server called Streamload which is fairly ideal but
>> requires a 4.95 or 5.95 (I forget which) monthly fee.
>
>eMule? BitTorrent? (just guesses).
>
>BitTorrent seems ideal. You just create the .torrent files with the file info
>and people download them whenever they want the file.

Also, there is DC++.
---
El Meda.

http://ingemeda.tripod.com/
Anonymous
June 13, 2004 3:16:39 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:27:24 -0300, Chaos Master
<triac@m-net.arbornet.org> wrote:

>Mark D. Zacharias (mzacharias@yis.us) caused an illegal operation in module
><2iqrerFpu2duU1@uni-berlin.de>:
>> I'm starting to think that P2P won't really work due to the way the nodes
>> etc work on Kazaa.
>>
>> I've been investigated a server called Streamload which is fairly ideal but
>> requires a 4.95 or 5.95 (I forget which) monthly fee.
>
>eMule? BitTorrent? (just guesses).
>
>BitTorrent seems ideal. You just create the .torrent files with the file info
>and people download them whenever they want the file.
>
>[]s

Everybody talks Kazaa whenever P2P comes up.
I've found Kazaa to be the worst.(endless viruses,worms etc... not to
mention all the bogus files.)
I know there are scores of P2P services available, some legit and in
the open some not.
I've used Winmix off and on ever since it went online and found it to
be the most productive and safe.(Not one virus/trojan/worm in all the
time I've used it.)
I don't know if it's set up for documents or such, but if so would be
ideal for exchange of manuals.(I'm assuming they'd be in pdf format.)
I've also been trying out edonkey the past few weeks with fair
results. That might be an option as they seem to have a wide variety
of file types available.
I think the main issue of contention as to making this work is getting
some techs to warm up to the idea of sharing their manuals.(most I've
talked to have the attitude that if they had to pay big bucks for a
service manual so should everyone else.)
We all know that these manuals are priced far above anything
resembling a fair market value. Even more so considering that most
small repair shops might not use the manual more than once.
Some in the repair industry feel the overcharging is a good thing,
after all it helps keep many smaller shops from taking repair work on
hardware that they'll have to pay 50 bucks or more up front for a
service manual just to get started on a job.
The high price coupled with the policy not to sell service manuals at
the consumer level also keeps the vast majority of the consumer market
from servicing their own appliances.(please, I don't need to hear from
all in the service industry about how it's too dangerous to allow
consumers to attempt their own repair jobs. Not all consumers are as
incapable as most would believe.)
There ARE thousands of DIY'ers out here that go the distance to learn
how to do the work themselves.( I had the advantage of growing up in a
TV & Radio repair shop as well as having gone through BE & E in my
service days, so I realize I may be a bit of an exception. But have
seen many hobbyist that had many hours of schooling in electronics
courtesy their local votech.)
One way of looking at it could be that if more manuals were swapped it
would force down the price of service manuals for all.
Only those with monopolizing the market in mind could see this as a
bad thing.
I can remember the days when a Sams service pack was available to all
for as little as a buck. Haven't even seen Sams manuals since most of
the hobby shops went out.
Anonymous
June 13, 2004 3:21:31 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 12:05:19 +0200, "BitBanger" <Bb@dd.net> wrote:

>
>"Barry Mann" <zzzz@zzzz.zzz> wrote in message
>news:40a7a787$2$avgroveq$mr2ice@wcnews.cyberonic.com...
>> In <2gp42vF567aaU1@uni-berlin.de>, on 05/16/04
>> at 07:11 AM, "Mark D. Zacharias" <mzacharias@yis.us> said:
>>
>> >Why not? Use Kazaa Lite - no spyware. The manufacturers mostly don't
>> >copyright service info, and even if they did, they don't really care
>> >about this.
>>
>> I assume you are talking about service manuals.
>>
>> I would like to see a statement from the manufacturers to approve this
>> sort of activity. Many are shy about sharing service info. I'm not near
>> my manuals at the moment, but I remember most of them as being
>> copyrighted or at least considered to be "proprietory" by the
>> manufacturers.
>>
>> >I could make many Pioneer, Yamaha, Sony and other audio / video
>> >manuals available from my computer. Surely some others of us could as
>> >well.
>>
>> I don't care for scanned PDF's. The files are large and generally hard
>> to read. How would you handle large schematics? Most of my manuals have
>> large pullout drawings. Redrawn and retyped manuals would be useful,
>> but it is a *HUGE* project.
>
>There's no other way in any case as most older service manuals only exist in
>microfilm format. But the resolution is very good so scanning it and
>converting it to PDF would surely be feasible, and it being digital, the
>format size doesn't really matter.
>
>
Well, manuals ARE copyrighted. It's not against the law to reverse
engineer them tho'.
In fact many of the aftermarket manuals I've seen appear identical to
their oem counterparts.
Face it though. sharing a manual for free would at best be difficult
to procecute.
Certainly a far more trivial crime when compared to the highway
robbery of the oem's and the prices they charge for a manual.
Anonymous
June 13, 2004 10:05:57 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

I would like to see a system in place where persons in the business, or
knowledgeable amateurs, perhaps with a small yearly fee to join or stay in
the registry, could download service literature as needed.

Old manuals can be and often are scanned. As time goes by more equipment
will have electronic service data available.

I also think that when manufacturers discontinue a part, they should be
required to release the specs for that part and relinquish any proprietary
rights. Then if there's a sufficient market, second sources will come along
(like for Mitsubishi flybacks 4 years old and discontinued.).

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"gothika" <Vampyres@nettaxi.com> wrote in message
news:ahjnc0t92bcombi7qlgliddsgta0979qj4@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:27:24 -0300, Chaos Master
> <triac@m-net.arbornet.org> wrote:
>
> >Mark D. Zacharias (mzacharias@yis.us) caused an illegal operation in
module
> ><2iqrerFpu2duU1@uni-berlin.de>:
> >> I'm starting to think that P2P won't really work due to the way the
nodes
> >> etc work on Kazaa.
> >>
> >> I've been investigated a server called Streamload which is fairly ideal
but
> >> requires a 4.95 or 5.95 (I forget which) monthly fee.
> >
> >eMule? BitTorrent? (just guesses).
> >
> >BitTorrent seems ideal. You just create the .torrent files with the file
info
> >and people download them whenever they want the file.
> >
> >[]s
>
> Everybody talks Kazaa whenever P2P comes up.
> I've found Kazaa to be the worst.(endless viruses,worms etc... not to
> mention all the bogus files.)
> I know there are scores of P2P services available, some legit and in
> the open some not.
> I've used Winmix off and on ever since it went online and found it to
> be the most productive and safe.(Not one virus/trojan/worm in all the
> time I've used it.)
> I don't know if it's set up for documents or such, but if so would be
> ideal for exchange of manuals.(I'm assuming they'd be in pdf format.)
> I've also been trying out edonkey the past few weeks with fair
> results. That might be an option as they seem to have a wide variety
> of file types available.
> I think the main issue of contention as to making this work is getting
> some techs to warm up to the idea of sharing their manuals.(most I've
> talked to have the attitude that if they had to pay big bucks for a
> service manual so should everyone else.)
> We all know that these manuals are priced far above anything
> resembling a fair market value. Even more so considering that most
> small repair shops might not use the manual more than once.
> Some in the repair industry feel the overcharging is a good thing,
> after all it helps keep many smaller shops from taking repair work on
> hardware that they'll have to pay 50 bucks or more up front for a
> service manual just to get started on a job.
> The high price coupled with the policy not to sell service manuals at
> the consumer level also keeps the vast majority of the consumer market
> from servicing their own appliances.(please, I don't need to hear from
> all in the service industry about how it's too dangerous to allow
> consumers to attempt their own repair jobs. Not all consumers are as
> incapable as most would believe.)
> There ARE thousands of DIY'ers out here that go the distance to learn
> how to do the work themselves.( I had the advantage of growing up in a
> TV & Radio repair shop as well as having gone through BE & E in my
> service days, so I realize I may be a bit of an exception. But have
> seen many hobbyist that had many hours of schooling in electronics
> courtesy their local votech.)
> One way of looking at it could be that if more manuals were swapped it
> would force down the price of service manuals for all.
> Only those with monopolizing the market in mind could see this as a
> bad thing.
> I can remember the days when a Sams service pack was available to all
> for as little as a buck. Haven't even seen Sams manuals since most of
> the hobby shops went out.
>
June 15, 2004 2:17:29 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?

....Moose

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 23:16:39 -0500, gothika <Vampyres@nettaxi.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:27:24 -0300, Chaos Master
><triac@m-net.arbornet.org> wrote:
>
>>Mark D. Zacharias (mzacharias@yis.us) caused an illegal operation in module
>><2iqrerFpu2duU1@uni-berlin.de>:
>>> I'm starting to think that P2P won't really work due to the way the nodes
>>> etc work on Kazaa.
>>>
>>> I've been investigated a server called Streamload which is fairly ideal but
>>> requires a 4.95 or 5.95 (I forget which) monthly fee.
>>
>>eMule? BitTorrent? (just guesses).
>>
>>BitTorrent seems ideal. You just create the .torrent files with the file info
>>and people download them whenever they want the file.
>>
>>[]s
>
>Everybody talks Kazaa whenever P2P comes up.
>I've found Kazaa to be the worst.(endless viruses,worms etc... not to
>mention all the bogus files.)
>I know there are scores of P2P services available, some legit and in
>the open some not.
>I've used Winmix off and on ever since it went online and found it to
>be the most productive and safe.(Not one virus/trojan/worm in all the
>time I've used it.)
>I don't know if it's set up for documents or such, but if so would be
>ideal for exchange of manuals.(I'm assuming they'd be in pdf format.)
>I've also been trying out edonkey the past few weeks with fair
>results. That might be an option as they seem to have a wide variety
>of file types available.
>I think the main issue of contention as to making this work is getting
>some techs to warm up to the idea of sharing their manuals.(most I've
>talked to have the attitude that if they had to pay big bucks for a
>service manual so should everyone else.)
>We all know that these manuals are priced far above anything
>resembling a fair market value. Even more so considering that most
>small repair shops might not use the manual more than once.
>Some in the repair industry feel the overcharging is a good thing,
>after all it helps keep many smaller shops from taking repair work on
>hardware that they'll have to pay 50 bucks or more up front for a
>service manual just to get started on a job.
>The high price coupled with the policy not to sell service manuals at
>the consumer level also keeps the vast majority of the consumer market
>from servicing their own appliances.(please, I don't need to hear from
>all in the service industry about how it's too dangerous to allow
>consumers to attempt their own repair jobs. Not all consumers are as
>incapable as most would believe.)
>There ARE thousands of DIY'ers out here that go the distance to learn
>how to do the work themselves.( I had the advantage of growing up in a
>TV & Radio repair shop as well as having gone through BE & E in my
>service days, so I realize I may be a bit of an exception. But have
>seen many hobbyist that had many hours of schooling in electronics
>courtesy their local votech.)
>One way of looking at it could be that if more manuals were swapped it
>would force down the price of service manuals for all.
>Only those with monopolizing the market in mind could see this as a
>bad thing.
>I can remember the days when a Sams service pack was available to all
>for as little as a buck. Haven't even seen Sams manuals since most of
>the hobby shops went out.
Anonymous
June 15, 2004 6:31:28 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Ok, to state this first, I am not an expert in this area, but I would think
the service manuals would be copyrighted in some form. I mean, after all,
the design of the device is protected, why wouldn't the service manuals. I
have looked through some operators manuals and didn't see any copyrights on
them, so maybe there are none for the service manuals? It would be
something that I would proceed on with caution and a lot of research.

I know that if, let's say Sony, found out that their service manuals were
floating around the net, I am sure they would have their lawyers all over
it.

Rick


"Moose" <1@2.com> wrote in message
news:7vmsc0pmbtfncvh9g9mi8qn9l7ma2gv9ra@4ax.com...
> Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
> resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?
>
> ...Moose
>
>
Anonymous
June 15, 2004 8:45:48 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Sony is the only consumer electronics company I know of which goes to the
trouble of stating in the contracts with their servicers that theirs manuals
etc are not to be distributed without permission.
Still, I'm not aware of them pursuing any violations of this.

My shop is an authorized Sony servicer however, so I'm not planning to risk
any large scale sharing of their stuff. Their manuals are increasingly "out
there" though, and I'm not above helping out the occasional tech or
knowledgeable amateur who needs help.

Many of the other consumer electronics firms need all the help they can get
servicing their junk. Newsgroups and the (relatively) free sharing of
information is a help in this process, not a hindrance.

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Ricky Eck" <lizard7151971@verizon2.net> wrote in message
news:4ctzc.45050$TR1.2533@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
> Ok, to state this first, I am not an expert in this area, but I would
think
> the service manuals would be copyrighted in some form. I mean, after all,
> the design of the device is protected, why wouldn't the service manuals.
I
> have looked through some operators manuals and didn't see any copyrights
on
> them, so maybe there are none for the service manuals? It would be
> something that I would proceed on with caution and a lot of research.
>
> I know that if, let's say Sony, found out that their service manuals were
> floating around the net, I am sure they would have their lawyers all over
> it.
>
> Rick
>
>
> "Moose" <1@2.com> wrote in message
> news:7vmsc0pmbtfncvh9g9mi8qn9l7ma2gv9ra@4ax.com...
> > Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
> > resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?
> >
> > ...Moose
> >
> >
>
>
Anonymous
June 15, 2004 2:43:02 PM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 22:17:29 -0400, Moose <1@2.com> wrote:

>Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
>resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?

Ask the owner.

A manufacturer may take the attitude that distributing information
about their products can do them nothing but good. Or they may say
it's theirs, they sell it, hands off! They are perfectly entitled to
say the latter.
Anonymous
June 15, 2004 7:32:00 PM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

In rec.audio.tech Moose <1@2.com> wrote:
> Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
> resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?

Probably not. Copyright law takes effect when you write something. Will
the manufacturers go after you? Some make electronic manuals available
for free. Some are pretty aggressive about stopping people from 'misusing'
their stuff. Suffice to say, a fairly permissive manufacturer who allows
photocopying of manuals is still probably going to take a dim view on someone
profiteering from their manuals, which is what selling PDFs amounts to.

Colin
June 15, 2004 8:57:27 PM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

The reason I ask is that this practice is common on eBay especially
with vintage manuals or even vintage books which are no longer in
print. I just wondered when/if copyrights expire over time?

There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
the binary groups as well.

....Moose

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:32:00 GMT, "Colin B."
<cbigam@somewhereelse.nucleus.com> wrote:

>In rec.audio.tech Moose <1@2.com> wrote:
>> Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
>> resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?
>
>Probably not. Copyright law takes effect when you write something. Will
>the manufacturers go after you? Some make electronic manuals available
>for free. Some are pretty aggressive about stopping people from 'misusing'
>their stuff. Suffice to say, a fairly permissive manufacturer who allows
>photocopying of manuals is still probably going to take a dim view on someone
>profiteering from their manuals, which is what selling PDFs amounts to.
>
>Colin
Anonymous
June 16, 2004 1:10:14 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

>There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated >in many of
>the binary groups as well.

Sure but service manual PDF's are often up to 15-20 meg - too large for
single-part posting to binary groups.

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Moose" <1@2.com> wrote in message
news:mgouc053d7qhkmjfvlqk227cm9beeldvoj@4ax.com...
> The reason I ask is that this practice is common on eBay especially
> with vintage manuals or even vintage books which are no longer in
> print. I just wondered when/if copyrights expire over time?
>
> There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated in many of
> the binary groups as well.
>
> ...Moose
>
> On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:32:00 GMT, "Colin B."
> <cbigam@somewhereelse.nucleus.com> wrote:
>
> >In rec.audio.tech Moose <1@2.com> wrote:
> >> Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
> >> resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?
> >
> >Probably not. Copyright law takes effect when you write something. Will
> >the manufacturers go after you? Some make electronic manuals available
> >for free. Some are pretty aggressive about stopping people from
'misusing'
> >their stuff. Suffice to say, a fairly permissive manufacturer who allows
> >photocopying of manuals is still probably going to take a dim view on
someone
> >profiteering from their manuals, which is what selling PDFs amounts to.
> >
> >Colin
>
>
June 16, 2004 6:23:29 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Mark D. Zacharias wrote:
>>There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated >in many of
>>the binary groups as well.
>
>
> Sure but service manual PDF's are often up to 15-20 meg - too large for
> single-part posting to binary groups.
>
> Mark Z.
>

Many of the manuals I have purchased (ebay etc.) are photocopies. But
the mfr quite building, servicing and providing manuals a long time ago.
Pioneer vintage for example. In some cases the OEM's have gone out of
business altogether and without the xerox copies, no manuals would be
available at all. I do not see any copyright notice on some of my older
stuff, however that is no longer required.
One common law aspect of copyright, however, is that, in general, the
owner must demonstrate some kind of loss as a result of an infringement.
In most of these cases, since these materials are not being sold by the
owner, it may be a difficult argument to make.
Anonymous
June 16, 2004 8:49:51 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

For quite a while Harman Kardon made all their service manuals available for
download by the general public. They eventually stopped, but I'm not sure if
it was the fault of the bean-counters, or the lawyers. They might have been
afraid of making lots of Darwin-Award candidates.

Mark Z.

--
Please reply only to Group. I regret this is necessary. Viruses and spam
have rendered my regular e-mail address useless.


"Carl" <cwvallespamkiller@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:BaOzc.6214$3b1.517@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
> Mark D. Zacharias wrote:
> >>There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated >in many of
> >>the binary groups as well.
> >
> >
> > Sure but service manual PDF's are often up to 15-20 meg - too large for
> > single-part posting to binary groups.
> >
> > Mark Z.
> >
>
> Many of the manuals I have purchased (ebay etc.) are photocopies. But
> the mfr quite building, servicing and providing manuals a long time ago.
> Pioneer vintage for example. In some cases the OEM's have gone out of
> business altogether and without the xerox copies, no manuals would be
> available at all. I do not see any copyright notice on some of my older
> stuff, however that is no longer required.
> One common law aspect of copyright, however, is that, in general, the
> owner must demonstrate some kind of loss as a result of an infringement.
> In most of these cases, since these materials are not being sold by the
> owner, it may be a difficult argument to make.
Anonymous
June 17, 2004 2:45:16 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:10:14 -0500, "Mark D. Zacharias"
<mzacharias@yis.us> wrote:

>>There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated >in many of
>>the binary groups as well.
>
>Sure but service manual PDF's are often up to 15-20 meg - too large for
>single-part posting to binary groups.

So? Who cares if it's single-part? In many ways it's more
convenient if they aren't. Yenc and PAR files are the
newsgroup-user's friend.
Anonymous
June 17, 2004 4:41:54 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Mark D. Zacharias (mzacharias@yis.us) said those last words:
> >There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated >in many of
> >the binary groups as well.
>
> Sure but service manual PDF's are often up to 15-20 meg - too large for
> single-part posting to binary groups.

If someone can provide an "always-on" PC with a fast Internet connection,
run a web server on his/her PC, and use a host name from No-IP.com to redirect
to his/her IP address, it is possible to host big files such as service manuals
and schematics.

If I wasn't on 56k dial-up (but more like 33.6k) I would do this.

I am actually doing this, but no chance for 20MB files on a old 8GB hard disk
and a 56k connection.

[]s
--
© Chaos Master. |"These wounds won't seem to heal
My Evanescence HP is at: | This pain is just too real
http://marreka.no-ip.com | There's just too much that time can't erase"
(most often offline... ) | -- Evanescence, "My Immortal"
Anonymous
June 19, 2004 10:38:39 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 00:41:54 -0300, Chaos Master
<FreeBSD_Reloaded@yahoo.com.br> wrote:

>Mark D. Zacharias (mzacharias@yis.us) said those last words:
>> >There is no doubt that pirated pdf's are freely circulated >in many of
>> >the binary groups as well.
>>
>> Sure but service manual PDF's are often up to 15-20 meg - too large for
>> single-part posting to binary groups.
>
>If someone can provide an "always-on" PC with a fast Internet connection,
>run a web server on his/her PC, and use a host name from No-IP.com to redirect
>to his/her IP address, it is possible to host big files such as service manuals
>and schematics.
>
>If I wasn't on 56k dial-up (but more like 33.6k) I would do this.
>
>I am actually doing this, but no chance for 20MB files on a old 8GB hard disk
>and a 56k connection.
>
>[]s


Many of us are still on dialup.(If it weren't for being able to get
practicle use out of it I wouldn't have that. I logon mostly to obtain
information or software etc... My "web-surfing" days are definitely
over.)
That said I've gotten service info/software from ohters on the web by
snail mail.(Some were kind enough to offer to ship for the cost of
postage of a CD-R.)
Since I've tried to reciprocate whenever possible.
That would be one way of exchanging information most don't want us to
have.
Anonymous
June 19, 2004 10:51:29 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 04:49:51 -0500, "Mark D. Zacharias"
<mzacharias@yis.us> wrote:

>For quite a while Harman Kardon made all their service manuals available for
>download by the general public. They eventually stopped, but I'm not sure if
>it was the fault of the bean-counters, or the lawyers. They might have been
>afraid of making lots of Darwin-Award candidates.
>
>Mark Z.

It's not the "value loss" of sales but of service.
The manufacturer would go after you over loss of repair work.
Which is hypocritical as they'd look the consumer whose trying to get
a repair manual for their own use in the eye and tell you they no
longer have them.
Yet if it's a profitable repair job for them, all of a sudden the
repair manual can be "found" for their needs.
Truth is most of the electronics companies never discard documentation
on any of their products.(I used to use alot of Panasonic
industrial/broadcast gear and developed good "one to one" repore with
one of their service techs. He could always get me service manuals for
anything they'd made, even stuff dating back to the 60's. The had an
archive section in the back of the warehouse where they stored all
manuals.)
Anonymous
June 19, 2004 11:01:44 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 02:31:28 GMT, "Ricky Eck"
<lizard7151971@verizon2.net> wrote:

>Ok, to state this first, I am not an expert in this area, but I would think
>the service manuals would be copyrighted in some form. I mean, after all,
>the design of the device is protected, why wouldn't the service manuals. I
>have looked through some operators manuals and didn't see any copyrights on
>them, so maybe there are none for the service manuals? It would be
>something that I would proceed on with caution and a lot of research.

Simply put, they don't have to put copyright on each manual. Under
current US copyright law it's their intellectual property and that's
that.
Under the fair trade laws you can reverse engineer a manual and that's
legal as well.
Many have simply used the oem manual as a blueprint and made enough
changes in the diagrams and instructions to avoid copyright
infringement.
>
>I know that if, let's say Sony, found out that their service manuals were
>floating around the net, I am sure they would have their lawyers all over
>it.
>
That's for sure, sony can be some of the biggest Aholes you could deal
with.
>Rick
>
>
>"Moose" <1@2.com> wrote in message
>news:7vmsc0pmbtfncvh9g9mi8qn9l7ma2gv9ra@4ax.com...
>> Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
>> resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?
>>
>> ...Moose
>>
>>
>
Anonymous
June 19, 2004 11:02:59 AM

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 22:17:29 -0400, Moose <1@2.com> wrote:

>Is it legal to make pdf copies of manuals and selling them as
>resorations or reprinting them? When does copyright law take effect?
>
>...Moose

Copyright comes into effect the moment you make reproductions.
It's not about whether you make them for profit or for free.
It's about the lost revenue you'd be costing the oem.
>
>On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 23:16:39 -0500, gothika <Vampyres@nettaxi.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:27:24 -0300, Chaos Master
>><triac@m-net.arbornet.org> wrote:
>>
>>>Mark D. Zacharias (mzacharias@yis.us) caused an illegal operation in module
>>><2iqrerFpu2duU1@uni-berlin.de>:
>>>> I'm starting to think that P2P won't really work due to the way the nodes
>>>> etc work on Kazaa.
>>>>
>>>> I've been investigated a server called Streamload which is fairly ideal but
>>>> requires a 4.95 or 5.95 (I forget which) monthly fee.
>>>
>>>eMule? BitTorrent? (just guesses).
>>>
>>>BitTorrent seems ideal. You just create the .torrent files with the file info
>>>and people download them whenever they want the file.
>>>
>>>[]s
>>
>>Everybody talks Kazaa whenever P2P comes up.
>>I've found Kazaa to be the worst.(endless viruses,worms etc... not to
>>mention all the bogus files.)
>>I know there are scores of P2P services available, some legit and in
>>the open some not.
>>I've used Winmix off and on ever since it went online and found it to
>>be the most productive and safe.(Not one virus/trojan/worm in all the
>>time I've used it.)
>>I don't know if it's set up for documents or such, but if so would be
>>ideal for exchange of manuals.(I'm assuming they'd be in pdf format.)
>>I've also been trying out edonkey the past few weeks with fair
>>results. That might be an option as they seem to have a wide variety
>>of file types available.
>>I think the main issue of contention as to making this work is getting
>>some techs to warm up to the idea of sharing their manuals.(most I've
>>talked to have the attitude that if they had to pay big bucks for a
>>service manual so should everyone else.)
>>We all know that these manuals are priced far above anything
>>resembling a fair market value. Even more so considering that most
>>small repair shops might not use the manual more than once.
>>Some in the repair industry feel the overcharging is a good thing,
>>after all it helps keep many smaller shops from taking repair work on
>>hardware that they'll have to pay 50 bucks or more up front for a
>>service manual just to get started on a job.
>>The high price coupled with the policy not to sell service manuals at
>>the consumer level also keeps the vast majority of the consumer market
>>from servicing their own appliances.(please, I don't need to hear from
>>all in the service industry about how it's too dangerous to allow
>>consumers to attempt their own repair jobs. Not all consumers are as
>>incapable as most would believe.)
>>There ARE thousands of DIY'ers out here that go the distance to learn
>>how to do the work themselves.( I had the advantage of growing up in a
>>TV & Radio repair shop as well as having gone through BE & E in my
>>service days, so I realize I may be a bit of an exception. But have
>>seen many hobbyist that had many hours of schooling in electronics
>>courtesy their local votech.)
>>One way of looking at it could be that if more manuals were swapped it
>>would force down the price of service manuals for all.
>>Only those with monopolizing the market in mind could see this as a
>>bad thing.
>>I can remember the days when a Sams service pack was available to all
>>for as little as a buck. Haven't even seen Sams manuals since most of
>>the hobby shops went out.
>
!